Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[Bayarea4]

While I was watching poor Joy struggling through hours of labor pain, I thought of another possible reason fundy men don't want their women giving birth in hospitals. Yes, I get that home births are cheaper. Yes, I get that health insurance is expensive when you're self-employed. Yes, I get that these men don't want strange male doctors looking at their wives' lady parts.

But I think there's another reason. They think it's OK for women to suffer. They believe this is God's will. After all, didn't Eve disobey God, eat the apple and bring this punishment on herself and on every other woman ever born? Maybe this is how these men justify the pain of natural childbirth and resist medical interventions that might make it easier. Women are second-class citizens who don't deserve pain relief because hey, they're sinners. If childbirth hurts, too bad - it's their own damn fault.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Bayarea4
Add a sentence.

[Jynnan tonnix]

13 hours ago, louannems said:

My mom had 5 C-section's in almost as few years. One brother is 14 months older than me, another is 17 months younger than me.  My 2 sisters are 17 months apart.  We were all 6 to 8 lb. This was in the late 1950's/ early 1960's.

But still, I do hope Joy and Austin grow up a bit before they even think about more babies!  My mom was young, too, married  2 months shy of 18, and first baby 10 months later.

I'm sure Joy will be pregnant before Gideon's first birthday.

Sounds a bit like my mother-in-law who got married at 19 and had 7 kids over the next 10 years. She had all her babies vaginally, but that was still mostly in the era where women were heavily sedated throughout labor then were immediately given something to keep their milk from coming in as breast-feeding was out of style in favor of the new, and supposedly superior baby formulas. It's so strange to think, nowadays, that those practices were so widespread.

[kokapetl]

I tried to view the Very Special Episodes, but I couldn’t. Were they only ten minutes long?

Are they another case of TLC’s working backwards approach to Duggar weddings and babies, where they seem compelled to publish something timely when the event occurs, but all the lead up is aired 9+ months behind?

[Normades]

4 hours ago, Bayarea4 said:

While I was watching poor Joy struggling through hours of labor pain, I thought of another possible reason fundy men don't want their women giving birth in hospitals. Yes, I get that home births are cheaper. Yes, I get that health insurance is expensive when you're self-employed. Yes, I get that these men don't want strange male doctors looking at their wives' lady parts.

But I think there's another reason. They think it's OK for women to suffer. They believe this is God's will. After all, didn't Eve disobey God, eat the apple and bring this punishment on herself and on every other woman ever born? Maybe this is how these men justify the pain of natural childbirth and resist medical interventions that might make it easier. Women are second-class citizens who don't deserve pain relief because hey, they're sinners. If childbirth hurts, too bad - it's their own damn fault.

I've always thought this was part of the reason they allow their women to suffer with inadequate care. When you consider women as lesser beings, it's easy to not worry about their well-being, plus home births are more convenient for the men.

[Albanyguy]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

I've always thought this was part of the reason they allow their women to suffer with inadequate care. When you consider women as lesser beings, it's easy to not worry about their well-being,

The classic example being Josh taking a nap while Anna labored to deliver their first child on a toilet. And then there was the time Michelle went into labor and Jim Bob refused to drive her to the hospital until his daughters had cooked him a hot breakfast. 

[Annabel11]

Did anyone mention yet Austin calling out Joy on her rude comment about not caring what other people's opinions were when deciding the baby s name. He said they would say it more nicely. Joy seems a bit unrefined from her neglectful upbringing. I hope she's enjoying being a mom.

[Barb23]

That's a very good point that these type of men don't mind seeing their wives suffer through childbirth. I'm glad my husband is the opposite & can't  stand seeing me in any type of pain. 

[Caracoa1]

IIRC when Anna went into labor with her first child, Dr. Sarver was on vacation and JOSH was uncomfortable with a male OB looking at Anna's lady parts hence his decision that she have a home birth.  Austin appears to me he will be very controlling and very authoritarian.....he will decide when their next child is conceived...not the doctors who performed Joy's C-Section.

[bigskygirl]

1 hour ago, Caracoa1 said:

IIRC when Anna went into labor with her first child, Dr. Sarver was on vacation and JOSH was uncomfortable with a male OB looking at Anna's lady parts hence his decision that she have a home birth.  Austin appears to me he will be very controlling and very authoritarian.....he will decide when their next child is conceived...not the doctors who performed Joy's C-Section.

After what Josh did, he feels uncomfortable... What an ass!

[madpsych78]

9 hours ago, Bayarea4 said:

While I was watching poor Joy struggling through hours of labor pain, I thought of another possible reason fundy men don't want their women giving birth in hospitals. Yes, I get that home births are cheaper. Yes, I get that health insurance is expensive when you're self-employed. Yes, I get that these men don't want strange male doctors looking at their wives' lady parts.

But I think there's another reason. They think it's OK for women to suffer. They believe this is God's will. After all, didn't Eve disobey God, eat the apple and bring this punishment on herself and on every other woman ever born? Maybe this is how these men justify the pain of natural childbirth and resist medical interventions that might make it easier. Women are second-class citizens who don't deserve pain relief because hey, they're sinners. If childbirth hurts, too bad - it's their own damn fault.

I think there is some truth to this with most of these couples, except for Benessa. Ben was clearly anxious at the possibility of Jessa hemorrhaging with Henry like she did with Spurge.

[graefin]

1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

I think there is some truth to this with most of these couples, except for Benessa. Ben was clearly anxious at the possibility of Jessa hemorrhaging with Henry like she did with Spurge.

Didn't he also give an interview where he said it was hard to see her in pain without being able to do anything to relieve it?

[JocelynCavanaugh]

2 hours ago, graefin said:

Didn't he also give an interview where he said it was hard to see her in pain without being able to do anything to relieve it?

It's nice of him to have empathy, but depressing that they think there's nothing they can do when they live so close to so many clean, well-supplied, first-world facilities that almost certainly stock pain medication. 

[Temperance]

8 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

The classic example being Josh taking a nap while Anna labored to deliver their first second child on a toilet. And then there was the time Michelle went into labor and Jim Bob refused to drive her to the hospital until his daughters had cooked him a hot breakfast. 

Fixed for you. Anna gave birth to their second child (Michael) on the toliet.

[Caracoa1]

Jessa Definitely " wears the pants" in her little family....if she really wanted pain meds... I think after 2 natural Home births she would go to the hospital to get them.  What I can't wrap my head around is she was without a doubt willing to have another home birth with Henry even though she suffered horribly and hemorrhaged with Spurgeon.    I really hope Austin has some common sense and doesn't let Joy attempt a VBAC with their next child...which I predict will be Summer 2019.

[Normades]

9 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

Jessa Definitely " wears the pants" in her little family....if she really wanted pain meds... I think after 2 natural Home births she would go to the hospital to get them.  What I can't wrap my head around is she was without a doubt willing to have another home birth with Henry even though she suffered horribly and hemorrhaged with Spurgeon.    I really hope Austin has some common sense and doesn't let Joy attempt a VBAC with their next child...which I predict will be Summer 2019.

It seems as if these women feel ashamed to ask for pain management during birth. So sad that they don't try to get the best available care for themselves.

[Mollie]

39 minutes ago, Normades said:

It seems as if these women feel ashamed to ask for pain management during birth. So sad that they don't try to get the best available care for themselves.

I'm waiting for one of them to give birth in a barn and lay the baby in a manger.

[cmr2014]

38 minutes ago, Normades said:

It seems as if these women feel ashamed to ask for pain management during birth. So sad that they don't try to get the best available care for themselves.

I think you're right. Whatever is going on here -- whether it's part of the Gothard cult now, or some sort of fundie home-birther trend, or something else -- seems to be a BIG deal to them. I think they're all under a lot of pressure to get little or no prenatal care, give birth at home, and give birth without pain medication. I hope that Jinger has enough distance to buck this trend, but Jill, Jessa, Joy, and soon Kendra and Laura will all be following this playbook for the foreseeable future. They live in such an isolated, fantasy-land, that I don't think that one botched home birth after another has had any effect.

[Absolom]

I don't think it's Gothard since Michelle went to the hospital for almost all her births.  It's interesting that Kelly Bates who had mostly homebirths has daughters who go to the hospital or Alyssa goes to a birthing center. 

[JocelynCavanaugh]

Home-birthing is one of those odd things that's simultaneously popular with the very religious extreme right and the super-crunchy left. Since I'm not really either of those, I just don't get it! I'm not saying it should be outlawed or anything, but I don't understand why anyone would put themselves through that if they had any other choice. If you're poor but not poor enough for Medicaid and can't afford health insurance, and/or you live 150 miles from any kind of birthing center, like... maybe?

I don't really buy the idea that fundamentalists hate women and want them to suffer (and that wouldn't explain home-birthing's popularity on the other side, either). It's hyperbolic and I see no actual evidence of that. Plus, Michelle Duggar only had two of her kids at home,* and they were fairly early in the litter, so her daughters aren't necessarily following her lead. It's trendy for some other reason that I can't quite put my finger on, but feels like it might be in the neighborhood of bragging rights or the "mommy wars." I don't want to paint with a broad brush here, so please assume that you are the exception if you had a home birth (don't @ me!), but... it seems like the kind of "accomplishment" women claim when they aren't able to earn accomplishments in academics, careers, sports, creative pursuits, or other fields. If all you're supposed to do in life is have babies, I guess that becomes your competitive sport. But if you get near-fatal hemorrhaging instead of a trophy, maybe you should look into just making organic baby food or something instead.

 

*Just saw that @Absolom posted that same point while I was typing!

[DragonFaerie]

1 minute ago, Absolom said:

I don't think it's Gothard since Michelle went to the hospital for almost all her births.  It's interesting that Kelly Bates who had mostly homebirths has daughters who go to the hospital or Alyssa goes to a birthing center. 

I agree.  Michelle had an OB, and almost all, hospital births - I think only 2 or 3 were home births, and I'm wondering if they were planned that way, or if the babies just came that fast - you know while Boob was waiting on a hot breakfast before driving her to the hospital.  I'm not sure where this whole trend they seem to have of no prenatal care - that we're aware of, and homebirths with no DR or CPM comes from.  I can see Jill after "studying" midwifery want to try a homebirth, but since she never seemed to be well liked by some of her sisters, I don't think she would have the influence on them for them to try it - other than Joy.  It boggles the brain.  

[cmr2014]

I think that there may be fundie blogs that they follow, and they do have some fundie "friends" from Big Sandy and JTTH, so these people may be the source of the home-birthing craze. It may also be a part of Gothardism that JB and J'chelle just never embraced for one reason or another. Regardless of the origin, it seems to be the rule among the Duggar daughters right now.

[ChocolateAddict]

I personally think it's because they have been conditioned to not trust anyone outside their tiny, tiny circle. All their lives the Duggar daughters have been told that the evil liberals are aborting babies, having gay sex and generally disobeying the right way to live.  

 

These girls have been so isolated that they wouldn't have a doctor who they could trust or an outside friend who could at least point them in the right direction for where to get proper care. They live in an echo chamber of us against the world. No matter how bad it is (little food, molestation, fear) the outside world is worse. 

 

So when it comes to a really intense and emotional experience like childbirth, it isn't really that surprising that they close ranks and don't look to an outsider for help. The doctor could be gay, male, liberal or (heaven forbid!) all three. Dr Jill Medicine Woman might be utterly useless but she's the right gender with the right beliefs. If they went to hospital, they could end up with anyone taking care of them and for young, emotionally stunted women (like Joy), this certainly would not have been appealing. Best to take your chances with Jill's Medical Things than sign up for a strange person examine you intimately. 

 

Comparatively, Michelle grew up with Drs and medical care so she was more open to seeing a professional for giving birth. The fact that she and Jim Boob completely denied their children this doctor-patient relationship has lead to stunted, ill-equiped daughters who assume that godliness is some kind of defence against a medical tragedy. 

[Primrose]

On 13.3.2018 at 8:08 PM, doodlebug said:

There are a couple of different kinds of midwives in the US.  The most common, and best trained are Nurse midwives, CNM's.  This requires a Bachelor's degree in nursing before even applying to become a midwife.  Many CNM schools favor applicants who've not only finished nursing school but have worked as a labor and delivery or postpartum nurse.  One of the schools near me requires two years working in some sort of maternity setting before even applying.  Midwifery programs are usually two years and award Master's degrees.  Graduates of this program are eligible to sit for the CNM exam.  State licenses to practice are entirely separate and having the appropriate certification is a requirement. With a state license, a CNM can get privileges to deliver in a hospital, see patients there, etc.

The other type of midwife, also known as a direct entry or lay midwife, is not legal in every state.  Their training varies widely based on where they received it and usually lasts no more than a couple years past high school, unlike the 6 years a CNM does.  There are a lot of lay midwives who are virtually self taught, they do online courses and maybe follow another lay midwife around for a bit and then take an exam that is a lot less rigorous than the CNM test.  Probably the most common designation/testing system is the CPM or certified professional midwife. This is what Jill did.  One of the midwives who did much of Jill's training lost her license for some very questionable medical judgments that lead to serious complications for mother's and babies.  

The CPM organization is run by lay midwives who make up the testing, design the curricula, etc.  Lay midwives tend to not necessarily bring the usual scientific scrutiny to their practice.  While CNM's often participate and publish clinical research in respected medical journals, CPM's tend to have disdain for the scientific method and prefer to use methods that have been passed along through the generations or do things 'because that's the way I've always done it'.  A lot of what they teach their students is not based on any sort of science or research.  CPM's cannot get hospital privileges or write prescriptions in states where they can be licensed.

Thank you very much for your answer! It‘s very intresting to get to know how midwifery is organised in other countrys.

[satrunrose]

I think it has to do with the ridiculously small number of accomplishments these women are allowed to have. People are competitive, but outside of the fundie bubble, women have a lot of options to stand out. The Duggar girls a. aren't allowed to be good at anything besides getting pregnant and b. have been so poorly educated that they can't really compete in anything else (see Jessa and cooking, Jana's garden or Dr Jill Medicine Woman). The Dugger girls are also still 10+ kids away from getting attention for having super large families in their own right, so the only thing that leaves is attention seeking via birth plan. 

[Barb23]

14 hours ago, Absolom said:

I don't think it's Gothard since Michelle went to the hospital for almost all her births.  It's interesting that Kelly Bates who had mostly homebirths has daughters who go to the hospital or Alyssa goes to a birthing center. 

And Erin Bates couldn't wait to get an epidural with her 2nd baby because she missed the epidural time frame with her first.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 hours ago, ChocolateAddict said:

I personally think it's because they have been conditioned to not trust anyone outside their tiny, tiny circle. All their lives the Duggar daughters have been told that the evil liberals are aborting babies, having gay sex and generally disobeying the right way to live.  

 

These girls have been so isolated that they wouldn't have a doctor who they could trust or an outside friend who could at least point them in the right direction for where to get proper care. They live in an echo chamber of us against the world. No matter how bad it is (little food, molestation, fear) the outside world is worse. 

 

So when it comes to a really intense and emotional experience like childbirth, it isn't really that surprising that they close ranks and don't look to an outsider for help. The doctor could be gay, male, liberal or (heaven forbid!) all three. Dr Jill Medicine Woman might be utterly useless but she's the right gender with the right beliefs. If they went to hospital, they could end up with anyone taking care of them and for young, emotionally stunted women (like Joy), this certainly would not have been appealing. Best to take your chances with Jill's Medical Things than sign up for a strange person examine you intimately. 

 

Comparatively, Michelle grew up with Drs and medical care so she was more open to seeing a professional for giving birth. The fact that she and Jim Boob completely denied their children this doctor-patient relationship has lead to stunted, ill-equiped daughters who assume that godliness is some kind of defence against a medical tragedy. 

I completely agree with you.  Also, doctors and nurses are mandatory reporters for abuse.  I could see a man not wanting his wife or daughter to spend time alone with medical professionals without his presence.  Who knows what could be said while the examination is going on. 

[bigskygirl]

A nurse will usually be in a room with a male doctor while he examines a female patient, or the patient can ask for a family member or friend to come in during the exam. I would not want my husband in the room with me during certain examinations, and I am sure he would not want me in the room during certain examinations he has. On the subject of the girls not having proper prenatal and post care during and after being pregnant...I agree it is partly JB and Michelle's fault, but I think for the daughters who were molested by Smugs, I can understand how uncomfortable it is for them to be examined by a male or even a female doctor because of what they have been through. I also bet they never had a pap smear or breast examination because it could bring back some painful memories for them. I do not agree with them letting Jill and her medical things do the delivery or even attempt to do prenatal examinations, but I can understand why the girls may be scared to have to be examined for certain things.

[louannems]

But they were asleep.......They had to be told what happened.......They didn't even know.......

[louannems]

Lunching at Chick-fil-A

https://m.facebook.com/duggarfamilyofficial/#!/duggarfamilyofficial/photos/a.518180528315601.1073741828.510067475793573/1238738336259813/?type=3&source=48&__tn__=EH-R

[cdp73]

4 minutes ago, louannems said:

Lunching at Chick-fil-A

https://m.facebook.com/duggarfamilyofficial/#!/duggarfamilyofficial/photos/a.518180528315601.1073741828.510067475793573/1238738336259813/?type=3&source=48&__tn__=EH-R

Baby's looking at dad like "what the hell was I born into?" and it doesn't seem like Austin has the best grip on him.

Also, big surprise...Joy wearing a striped maxi skirt.  Those things must be plentiful at the thrift store.

[BitterApple]

Joy's looking much better. Poor Gideon has his father's unfortunate nose.

[Nysha]

11 hours ago, ChocolateAddict said:

They live in an echo chamber of us against the world. No matter how bad it is (little food, molestation, fear) the outside world is worse. 

These poor kids are taught that their Godly lives are the best they can be and every instance of worldly depravity is played up as a commonplace occurrence in the sinful world. Their childhood discipline might have included blanket training and beatings with flexible PVC pipe, but as long as they stay within their family/church confines they're safe from the constant muggings and violence of the sinful world. Josh may have been sly and inappropriate, but he confessed and was forgiven, the sinful world is full of perverts who will rape and kill you the minute you leave the compound. All your troubles and trials on earth will be wiped away and you'll be rewarded by God Himself IF you do exactly what you're told and say exactly what you're told. You can only associate with people who believe exactly the same way because everyone else is a vile sinner who will try to tempt you away from the one true God.

[WalrusGirl]

On 3/18/2018 at 6:15 AM, Kokapetl said:

I tried to view the Very Special Episodes, but I couldn’t. Were they only ten minutes long?

Are they another case of TLC’s working backwards approach to Duggar weddings and babies, where they seem compelled to publish something timely when the event occurs, but all the lead up is aired 9+ months behind?

If you have cable (I do, but TLC Go doesn’t include Verizon Fios, and I haven’t connected my travel roku just to try it via that), I show what looks like the two preview episodes combined to air after tonight’s episode, from 10:07-10:32 pm.

[Sew Sumi]

So, that's it for their baby VSE? Snore...

[lianau]

22 hours ago, DragonFaerie said:

I agree.  Michelle had an OB, and almost all, hospital births - I think only 2 or 3 were home births, and I'm wondering if they were planned that way, or if the babies just came that fast - you know while Boob was waiting on a hot breakfast before driving her to the hospital.  I'm not sure where this whole trend they seem to have of no prenatal care - that we're aware of, and homebirths with no DR or CPM comes from.  I can see Jill after "studying" midwifery want to try a homebirth, but since she never seemed to be well liked by some of her sisters, I don't think she would have the influence on them for them to try it - other than Joy.  It boggles the brain.  

Maybe it's as simple as Michelle having insurance .

[answerphone]

When I watch any of the fundie home births, I get a Little House on the Prairie vibe.

"Ma, Pa, run and get the neighbor lady who knows more than my sister does!"

"Boil some water and tell the menfolk to pray!"

[LillyB]

I just remembered what made me hate Ma and Pa Duggar. They took the family to  rock climbing wall to celebrate one of the boys birthday.  Joy wanted to climb it. This was when she was a bit of a tomboy. She tried but her shoes made it impossible.Poor Joy was stuck wearing flip-flops with an inch and a half platform that were at least two sizes big. Why didn't they get her shoes that fit.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 3/18/2018 at 4:33 AM, Jynnan tonnix said:

Sounds a bit like my mother-in-law who got married at 19 and had 7 kids over the next 10 years. She had all her babies vaginally, but that was still mostly in the era where women were heavily sedated throughout labor then were immediately given something to keep their milk from coming in as breast-feeding was out of style in favor of the new, and supposedly superior baby formulas. It's so strange to think, nowadays, that those practices were so widespread.

I tried in 2014 to convince my CNM and OB to agree to letting me have an old-school, heavily sedated, 1960s-esque "twilight" birth at the hospital....but they said no.  Apparently medical professionals and hospitals won't do that anymore.  LOL. 

So it's hard for me to understand why any of these girls - especially ones whose sisters have needed emergency c-sections or emergency transport to the hospital for bleeding - would even think about doing this without real medical care or a licensed practitioner.  I was terrified of giving birth the first time and most women I knew didn't have the horror stories that Jill and Jess had.   I just think Joy was told she was having a home birth (because it is cheaper if it goes ok and it can be filmed for TV) and said "okay" because that's what she's been conditioned to do - what she was told.  She wasn't allowed to have (or voice) any feelings about it.  Heck, I didn't want to admit to people that I was terrified of childbirth because everyone acted like that made me such a baby and not a real woman....and none of the people who judged me for these fears had homebirths themselves and most had epidurals/pain meds.  So I imagine that in Joy's world, you really don't mention your fears about childbirth since it's literally the only big thing women do in their circle. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[BitterApple]

To add to that, I think Joy is heavily invested in Austin having a high opinion of her. Even if Austin encourages homebirth for his own selfish reasons ($$$ and lack of insurance), there's no way Joy would ever speak up and disagree if she wasn't feeling it. She's way too insecure and desperate for approval. The only good thing to come of this mess is a C-section means she won't be able to birth fourteen babies for Jesus (or at least, I hope...).

Edited March 20, 2018 by BitterApple

[sleepysuzy]

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

To add to that, I think Joy is heavily invested in Austin having a high opinion of her. Even if Austin encourages homebirth for his own selfish reasons ($$$ and lack of insurance), there's no way Joy would ever speak up and disagree if she wasn't feeling it. She's way too insecure and desperate for approval. The only good thing to come of this mess is a C-section means she won't be able to birth fourteen babies for Jesus (or at least, I hope...).

Why not? Didn't Michelle have a csection with Jana and JD?

I had a cs in 2010 after 36 hours of labor due to failure to progrss, and was able to vbac in 2012, 2014, and 2016, with babies who weighed 9.5 to11 lbs, all bigger than my csection baby. We decided not to have any more children, but apparently my uterus is very resilient and I could physically have continued having more. 

If her csection was due to breech position only, that does not preclude her from attempting to vbac with subsequent pregnancies. I would just hope she would get better care so a breech presentation is detected and options to help the baby turn are available. 

[Heathen]

54 minutes ago, sleepysuzy said:

Why not? Didn't Michelle have a csection with Jana and JD?

Yes. Mullet's cesareans were with Jana/JD, Jackson, Jordyn, and Josie. 

[JoanArc]

14 hours ago, BitterApple said:

The only good thing to come of this mess is a C-section means she won't be able to birth fourteen babies for Jesus (or at least, I hope...).

Shes been raised by people who literally say that childbirth is good for you body an strengthens you. Don't hold your breath.

[Skittl1321]

I just read about the birth on NBCnews-  three thoughts

1) It took a midwife 20 hours to determine the baby was breech?  Who was this midwife? Josie?  Almost no one in the US does breech vaginal births anymore- she should have been in a hospital from the beginning!

2) Over 10 pounds?!  Did she have undiagnosed gestational diabetes? Or untreated?

3) She is quoted as saying the baby has his father's nostrils.  Really? That's the feature you pick?

 

 

(After my recent C-section I was told I had to wait 18 months to start TTC again, due to repeat placental abruption and uterine rupture risk. I wonder how long she'll wait.  My care was by CNMs in a clinic associated with the top hospital in the region. They easily integrated care with the MFM team when I had high risk concerns; and handed off care to an OB for the C-section seamlessly. Huge fan of midwifery for prenatal care, but a CNM.)

Edited March 21, 2018 by Skittl1321

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

8 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Shes been raised by people who literally say that childbirth is good for you body an strengthens you. Don't hold your breath.

Some parts of my body were wrecked by having two almost 10 lb babies in 19 months.  Some things (especially my pelvic floor) aren't ever gonna be the same (even with physical therapy, etc).  

These people are nuts.

7 hours ago, Skittl1321 said:

I just read about the birth on NBCnews-  three thoughts

1) It took a midwife 20 hours to determine the baby was breech?  Who was this midwife? Josie?  Almost no one in the US does breech vaginal births anymore- she should have been in a hospital from the beginning!

2) Over 10 pounds?!  Did she have undiagnosed gestational diabetes? Or untreated?

3) She is quoted as saying the baby has his father's nostrils.  Really? That's the feature you pick?

 

1.) Jill Duggar (who is not a licensed midwife of any kind and thinks that listening to heartbeats & timing contractions is all the prenatal/birthing care one needs)....because this family is stupid to the point of having no Fs to give about the health/lives of the women-breeders & babies. And yes, they should have been in hospitals/birthing centers, etc. 

2.) The Duggar girls seem to have big babies. I had two almost 10 lbs babies in the past 3.5 years. I didn't have gestational diabetes. My father weighed 11lbs when he was born in the 1940s.  My dad and my husband's dad are both 6'4".  My husband's grandfather was 6'7".  I was not overweight when pregnant and my babies were generally longer rather than chubby, if that makes sense. I had them vaginally and yes, it was indeed ROUGH, but plenty of women have babies around this size (and do it vaginally).  Plenty of babies are born around 10lbs to healthy moms and are healthy babies. I'm taller than the Duggar girls (5'7"-5'8"ish) and obviously come from taller, sturdier people than the Duggars (none of them are very tall & plenty of them are what I'd call "short") as does my husband - we are just bigger people genetically and our family members are taller than most of the Duggars.  I'm not sure why the comparatively small Duggar women seem to birth big babies like my family does, but it seems they do.  While having such big babies isn't necessarily something every woman/family sees often, it happens plenty, even to moms without gestational diabetes, etc.  Also, maybe something/someone is trying to tell them something about having tons of kids by "blessing" them with bigger babies. I know from personal experience (and pelvic floor damage) that carrying/birthing ten pound babies definitely makes one somewhat more reluctant to do it again and again and again. (I took the hint from the universe after baby #2 and had my tubes removed.)  /sorry for the rant

3.) Well, I mean...it is really noticeable on Austin and the baby.  It's something a kid would immediately point out loudly while the adults would know to be a little more tactful when speaking to the media (or at least say the baby has Austin's "nose" rather than "nostrils"). But Joy is basically a kid herself, so....

Edited March 21, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[floridamom]

My first baby weighed 6lbs 12 oz...I gained 30 lbs with him and I was almost 30 yrs old.  Joy's baby was almost two of mine. I shutter to think what watermelons she's going to be giving birth to during the course of the next 25 years.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

45 minutes ago, floridamom said:

My first baby weighed 6lbs 12 oz...I gained 30 lbs with him and I was almost 30 yrs old.  Joy's baby was almost two of mine. I shutter to think what watermelons she's going to be giving birth to during the course of the next 25 years.

Ha. After two nearly 10lb babies, I feel like I push out a 6lb baby with a sneeze! (I do sometimes get a tad jealous because my babies never looked like the "tiny" newborns like all 5-8lb newborns I've seen. Mine were in 3-6mo clothes from day one! When I see a more average sized newborn, they look soooo adorably tiny to me and I just think that my babies were never that small except maybe when I was like 6-7 months pregnant with them, LOL.)

Perhaps it's a good thing the Duggar girls are having bigger babies...maybe it's a hint from the universe not to keep doing this to their bodies over & over (not like they'd take the hint, but you know...). 

Edited March 21, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[sleepysuzy]

6 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

Some parts of my body were wrecked by having two almost 10 lb babies in 19 months.  Some things (especially my pelvic floor) aren't ever gonna be the same (even with physical therapy, etc).  

These people are nuts.

1.) Jill Duggar (who is not a licensed midwife of any kind and thinks that listening to heartbeats & timing contractions is all the prenatal/birthing care one needs)....because this family is stupid to the point of having no Fs to give about the health/lives of the women-breeders & babies. And yes, they should have been in hospitals/birthing centers, etc. 

2.) The Duggar girls seem to have big babies. I had two almost 10 lbs babies in the past 3.5 years. I didn't have gestational diabetes. My father weighed 11lbs when he was born in the 1940s.  My dad and my husband's dad are both 6'4".  My husband's grandfather was 6'7".  I was not overweight when pregnant and my babies were generally longer rather than chubby, if that makes sense. I had them vaginally and yes, it was indeed ROUGH, but plenty of women have babies around this size (and do it vaginally).  Plenty of babies are born around 10lbs to healthy moms and are healthy babies. I'm taller than the Duggar girls (5'7"-5'8"ish) and obviously come from taller, sturdier people than the Duggars (none of them are very tall & plenty of them are what I'd call "short") as does my husband - we are just bigger people genetically and our family members are taller than most of the Duggars.  I'm not sure why the comparatively small Duggar women seem to birth big babies like my family does, but it seems they do.  While having such big babies isn't necessarily something every woman/family sees often, it happens plenty, even to moms without gestational diabetes, etc.  Also, maybe something/someone is trying to tell them something about having tons of kids by "blessing" them with bigger babies. I know from personal experience (and pelvic floor damage) that carrying/birthing ten pound babies definitely makes one somewhat more reluctant to do it again and again and again. (I took the hint from the universe after baby #2 and had my tubes removed.)  /sorry for the rant

3.) Well, I mean...it is really noticeable on Austin and the baby.  It's something a kid would immediately point out loudly while the adults would know to be a little more tactful when speaking to the media (or at least say the baby has Austin's "nose" rather than "nostrils"). But Joy is basically a kid herself, so....

I am fairly average sized, 5'5" and 145 lbs, with no gestational diabetes,  and my babies were 8 lbs 14 oz - 11 lbs. They were all born before the due date, too. All of the women in my maternal line have huge babies. We just have super efficient placenta. It's like the opposite of  IUGR.

As for delivering them vaginally, my two biggest were 11 lbs and 10 lbs 10 oz, born 18 months apart and delivered vbac. No stitches. Both had shoulder dystocia and  were face up, but my midwives were awesome and delivered them without injury. In similar births, both my mom and mother-in-law were injured by doctors using forceps to pull the baby out. My midwives used maneuvers to reposition me and the baby instead. It hurt at the time, but once they were delivered there was no lasting damage.

My abs are obliterated,  but that has nothing to do with mode of delivery.

[lascuba]

On 3/18/2018 at 6:22 PM, DragonFaerie said:

I agree.  Michelle had an OB, and almost all, hospital births - I think only 2 or 3 were home births, and I'm wondering if they were planned that way, or if the babies just came that fast - you know while Boob was waiting on a hot breakfast before driving her to the hospital.  I'm not sure where this whole trend they seem to have of no prenatal care - that we're aware of, and homebirths with no DR or CPM comes from.  I can see Jill after "studying" midwifery want to try a homebirth, but since she never seemed to be well liked by some of her sisters, I don't think she would have the influence on them for them to try it - other than Joy.  It boggles the brain.  

They were planned...Michelle has discussed it before. She mentioned she wished she had been aware of homebirth as an option sooner. 

[Lunera]

That baby sure has his dad's face.

[Lunera]

https://www.inquisitr.com/4838904/joy-anna-duggar-struggled-family-faith-counting-on-sneak-peek/

"I can’t speak and cry. It’s terrible. First of all I want to say that Joe, I’m so thankful for you. You really did change my life,” Joy-Anna says to her sibling.

“Just through my teen years, I think I was having a hard time taking my parents’ faith as my own and you really befriended me as an older brother.”