S04.E17: After the Fire

[ItCouldBeWorse]

46 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I went back and edited my comment to reflect my point better.  What I was really driving at was the way Randall treats Kate in his scenarios.  Kate and Randall have had very few interactions over the seasons but what we have seen have all had them in a good place.  Not as close as her and Kevin, but not as contentious as Kevin and Randall.   Shouldn't Kate also get her perfect life in the first fantasy?  

I just don't think Randall cares that much if either of his siblings is happy.  He could have made Kate a more typical weight in either fantasy (which would have been a challenge for the producers), but he didn't.

[Bulldog]

Who was the Ethan that Kate was married to in the 2nd scenario?  Have we ever seen or met him before (in flashbacks)?  Since Kevin ends up with Sophie, I thought Ethan must be somebody we were suppose to know.  If the scenario was supposed to be what Randall feared, why didn't they just make the husband Mark?

Interesting that in both alternative scenarios, Kevin is not rich and famous, yet still seems happier and better adjusted than Randall.  (And I would argue that in the "real" timeline, he is the same way, even if he is a recovering alcoholic.)

LOVED Beth being the voice of reason in the dinner scene and convincing Randall to forgive his mother. 

I really have nothing to add about Randall himself that hasn't already been said.  Total dick move what he did to Rebecca.  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

51 minutes ago, Roxie said:

Way back, she was also the voice of Bobby Hill on "King of the Hill."

I thought it was called "Ching of the Mill."

17 minutes ago, Veronica said:

Am I remembering correctly that Kevin was married to Sophie in both of Randall’s “What if,” scenarios? 

Sophie was definitely there at Thanksgiving in the first scenario, but I don't think they were married yet.  She mentioned everyone going to college, which made me think that Kate had gone for sure.

I'm not sure if she was with Kevin at Randall's wedding to Beth in that first, happy fantasy. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[BusyOctober]

So whether Jack lived or died, Randall still ends up a self important asshole with delusions of superiority. Got it.  
The therapist told him to open up to his mother about his anger over her withholding the William info for all those years.  I don’t think for one second the therapist meant in any way, shape or form that Rebecca owes  Randall the chance to continue his savior fantasy.  She didn’t give Randall license to exploit his fragile mother with such an outrageous demand. What a shitty, selfish, self absorbed thing to do. 

Kevin shouldn’t be the only one not speaking to Randall after this.  Beth should kick his ass to the curb too.  Beth is the bigger saint of the Pearson clan than everyone makes Jack out to be, or that Randall sees himself to be. Good God! How has she put up with Randall’s numerous acts of self indulgence?  GAH! 

And what the hell does Randall even know about this trial?  Does he know for sure Rebecca will receive the drug being tested?  Is this a beta test or 2nd generation that has shown some inconclusive but promising results in earlier trials?  Otherwise, it’s really a roll of the dice.  Rebecca could maybe see some improvement. OR her quality of life is diminished more rapidly by being in a strange place, in a clinical environment, away from friends and family just because Randall “never asked her for anything”. 
 

[Racj82]

I do appreciate that even if Randall doesn't realize it, he's an ass in every version he sees of himself or in reality. In reality, his circumstances in life have given him a inflated sense of self that makes him so hard to take at times. The douchebag version of himself is obvious. But, even in his happiest version of his life, he's only really worried about himself. The results of Jack living in regards to everyone else isn't really a concern to him.

I do appreciate that over the past two seasons, the show runners have shattered that Halo over Jack and Randall. They are two tremendously flawed characters. Much more than those around them. 

[zoey1996]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

How did Kate meet her husband in Sliding Doors?  Was it explained?

 

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

No.  It wasn't important to Randall. I'm not sure why he didn't just give her Toby as a husband, as in the first scenario.  Plus, I wanted to know if she had gone to college to study music.

Kevin didn't go to California and need an assistant, so Kate didn't go to California either.  Thus she wouldn't have met Toby.

1 hour ago, BuckeyeLou said:

I did not understand why in one version of Randall's 'fantasies", he had a different girlfriend(not Beth, whom we've seen with Randall since college), has Randall secretly wanted a girlfriend?  And why did he see Kate with twins & not with Toby?  Clearly, he did not want to see Kevin as a famous actor...Randall wanted to be the "hero" in all his fantasies.

Randall didn't go to the same school as Beth in one scenario or at least didn't meet her and immediately be smitten as he was in his "real life."

I seriously wanted Rebecca to tell Randall that she'd think about it and talk it over with Miguel, rather that just cave and say she'd do it.  

[txhorns79]

My thought at the end of Randall's first fantasy where he and Jack give each other knowing looks when Rebecca has lost her phone: "No wonder Rebecca and Randall are so close, they both have two dads!" 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

3 minutes ago, zoey1996 said:

Kevin didn't go to California and need an assistant, so Kate didn't go to California either.  Thus she wouldn't have met Toby.

That makes sense, but then how did she meet him in the first scenario where they were married?  Did Kevin stop working with Jack and head to California sometime later?

[Blakeston]

I thought this episode was absolutely brilliant. I was hating the first 15 minutes, when everything went damn near perfectly in Randall's vision, but then the therapist called him out and everything got so much better.

i think it was a brilliant way to show how someone can have a breakthrough, and still manage to take away exactly the wrong message, and make a terrible mistake while thinking they're in the right.

[chocolatine]

If Randall thinks he won't be able to live with himself if Rebecca doesn't do the trial, how does he think he'll live with himself if she has a stroke or brain hemorrhage as a side effect of the experimental drug? Even in Randall's world where everything revolves around him and his feelings, surely that possibility must have crossed his mind?

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I was starting to get hot under the collar about Randall's blackmail of Rebecca, but I don't think she ends up doing the trial, not for 9 months anyway.  This is March, Rebecca is at the cabin for their 40th birthday which is end of August I think.  Unless she gets weekends away, but I don't think they would have been letting her go to town alone for a cake if she's under treatment.  I think it's not going to work the way he wants it to.

I agree. We also know that her health has deteriorated a lot for such a short amount of time. I do think that Kevin, Kate, and maybe Miguel, end up putting their feet down, which is why they're on the outs with Randall in the 40th birthday flash-forward.

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

The second version is when the therapist asked him what he feared life would be like.  He apparently feared academia and being all kinds of wrong with his TAs. That was kind of weird.

I think one of Randall's biggest fears is never experiencing the deep love he has with Beth. In his "nightmare" version he's his own idea of Kevin, a hot-shot who has many shallow hook-ups instead of a meaningful relationship. Except, even in his nightmare, Randall won't debase himself to being an actor, he has to have a profession he thinks of as desirable.

40 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

Who was the Ethan that Kate was married to in the 2nd scenario?  Have we ever seen or met him before (in flashbacks)?  Since Kevin ends up with Sophie, I thought Ethan must be somebody we were suppose to know.  If the scenario was supposed to be what Randall feared, why didn't they just make the husband Mark?

In both scenarios all of the Big Three ended up going to college. So Kate most likely would not have gotten the job at the local record store where she met Mark in the real version of events.

27 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

And what the hell does Randall even know about this trial?  Does he know for sure Rebecca will receive the drug being tested?

If this is a legitimate drug trial, it would have to be double-blind, i.e. neither the subjects nor the investigators would know who gets the drug and who gets the placebo. Randall bragged in the last episode that he had done so much research he was "halfway to a medical degree", but he obviously doesn't even understand the basic concepts of clinical trials/experiment design.

[Miss Bones]

I hate that we have to have Randall’s POV for this “what could have been” scenario.  Oh and what do you know??  Kate is still fat at Randall’s wedding, because in his own mind, only his life would be different if he’d saved Jack.  That’s also why we’ve now spanned decades, and Jack Pearson is still sporting the same Sonny Bono look, in Randall’s fantasy.  Hey, my dad had a bad stache when I was a kid, but he isn’t still rocking it.  

Seriously though, his POV limits all of our alternate-universe characters, and makes them. all.  Randall.  This is Sterling’s Emmy reel, is what it is.  I wish the saga would continue with the other Big 2 of 3’s imagining of life A.J.  (A.J. = After Jack, like the B.C. age.  Because they act like Jack is the messiah.)

Then, the episode ends with Randall saying to Rebecca that he’s never asked her for anything, and he needs her to agree to the clinical trial!!  OMG I can’t believe this, right now!!  And she says “Okay...” and her tone is SO not wanting to agree to it!!!  He can’t hear that?  Super Son?  Sure we don’t get his reply— because the episode ends—but he is so delusional, at this point, why would he get it next week?

I’m glad he is getting help, but in typical selfrighteous!Randall fashion, he thinks one session cured him.  He now officially knows it all!  Sprinkle the rose petals on the red carpet that you roll out for him, when he goes to the next appointment with his therapist, because he’s now got all the knowledge!

At least now, I think we know for sure what causes his rift with Kevin!

Added note:  Look at the wig sprouting out of MM’s scalp, when she is telling Randall about William the first time!  (I tried to add a pic but it says the file is too large.)  Never cared for the old lady Rebecca wig, but the middle aged one hasn’t bothered me this much till now!!

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Miss Bones
Punctuation and grammar

[sara416]

2 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

 

I was getting a real workout rolling my eyes so hard at Randall’s saccharine perfect fantasy life, so I was relieved when his therapist called him on it. (That being said, I hope no viewers considering trying therapy think real therapists are that blunt and confrontational.)

 

 

I mean, it depends on the therapist. There are some that can be that confrontational, and sometimes clients need it. We all need to be called on our bullshit sometimes and not everyone hears it when a therapist is gentle about it. 

As a therapist, I have to say that my favorite line of the night was from the therapist saying "I'm a therapist. I don't give advice." Rule #1 in our field, and I wish more people knew it!

[SueB]

Wow.  That was hard to watch.  I have sympathy for Randall but the manipulation was horrible. 
The actress who plays young Beth is brilliant. 

[MBayGal]

Quote

.....but I can tell that Randall's therapist is going to continue to annoy me.  

I always find Pamela Adlon annoying.

[phalange]

It almost seemed like the therapist was getting through to Randall, and then...this. Rebecca made herself clear about not wanting to do the trial, and now Randall has just guilt tripped her into it because of his own issues. "You have to spend nine months doing this thing you really don't want to do because otherwise I'll end up back in therapy!" Really, Randall? It's all about him; no concern about what Rebecca herself wants, and once again just bulldozing his way through without talking to Miguel, Kate, or Kevin. I understand he doesn't want to lose yet another parent, but now he's just alienating everyone. 

[NUguy514]

Mandy Moore had another fantastic episode.  She's been magnificent all season.

I did love Pamela Adlon calling Randall on his bullshit.  I think it's hilarious that Kevin, while still sexy as hell (because Randall can't change that), is so unremarkable in either (any?) alternate reality Randall can conjure.  Randall completely resents Kevin's acting success because he thinks that he's entitled to be the one and only superstar and that Kevin doesn't deserve it.  Naturally, Kate doesn't factor into Randall's alternate realities because he doesn't really care about her one way or the other.  I mean, both scenarios served to illuminate how little Randall thinks about anyone other than himself.  He is monstrously self-centered and self-aggrandizing, but that's nothing new: Randall always, always gets his way.

However, the revolting emotional manipulation he employed to get Rebecca into a clinical trial in which she very well might not get the life-saving new treatment for Alzheimer's (hello, Mr. Almost-An-MD-Because-I-Read-Some-Articles, half the participants will get the placebo) and trying to rob her of her waning quality time with her family just because he has no ability to consider anyone but himself?

[bros402]

This episode was.... an episode.

I am glad the therapist called him out on his perfect scenario being BS - but holy crap Randall, why would you take the therapist's message as "emotionally blackmail your mother into joining a clinical trial"

that is the exact opposite of what she meant

Also, during Randall's "I've lost three parents" spiel, I was immediately reminded of the show Awake, which had much better TV therapists - 

 

[Spencer Hastings]

About halfway through Randall’s second hissyfit, I couldn’t help but think “I bet Jack is glad he went back into that house.”  His birth mom should consider herself lucky as well.  Holy crap, Randall is exhausting.  

[qtpye]

6 hours ago, Trillian said:

Can I like this 100 times?

Randall cannot manipulate his mother like this and be allowed to be a hero of this show. No wonder flashforward Kevin and Kate aren’t speaking to him. Despicable. 

 

6 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Randall- no. Just no. 
 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. We are all mortal Randall. Please don’t do this to your Mother. That “mother’s guilt” is something else. 
 

Randall is being very selfish. This isn’t about him!! He has been a good son, and Rebecca has been a good mother- but that doesn’t entitle him to pull this shit. This is not being a good son. SELFISH!!

This makes me so glad I don’t have any typical siblings who can ask my Mom to do things!

 

 

6 hours ago, ams1001 said:

No, Randall, you don't get to guilt trip your mom into giving up 9 months of her life for an extremely uncertain outcome. She doesn't owe you that.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Mom I need you to do the trial because I need to feel better about myself. aaaaaaaaaargh

 

5 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I noticed that too when it came to Kevin and Kate to a lesser extent.   Randall's selfishness won't even allow him to consider how his siblings lives would have been changed if Randall could have saved Jack.  In the second scenario,  Randall's rudeness to his siblings was uncalled for quite honestly.   What could Kate  have possibly done to warrant his brush off?  

 

And fuck you Randall for choosing not to hash things out with Rebecca and instead decide to hold it over her head.  That guilt trip is unconscionable.  She doesn't owe this to you because of what happened in the past.   Also Kate doesn't deserve to lose what little time she and Jack have left with Rebecca for this. 

 

5 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I was getting so annoyed at Randall's "rose colored glasses" version of events that I loved his therapist interrupting to tell him that he's full of it. I love his therapist! I liked that she pointed out that he chose someone similar to Rebecca to work with.

In Randall's "scariest" of events, one of his fears was not only that he was no longer the favorite child but that Kevin was the favorite! I hope he reflects on that. It would help him understand not only himself, but Kevin better and maybe make their relationship better.

When he threw William's box of stuff out, I was like whoa, that was cold. At least that was also in his worst fears version so I hope that plus being estranged from his family was scary to him because he doesn't want to be that cold-hearted uncaring person.

OMG, his mentioning to Rebecca that he never held on to her keeping William from him was so manipulative! Plus, I seriously doubt that he's never asked anything from her. He really boxed her into a corner telling her that he had to "hear her say it." Wow, she should have taken some time to think but he was pushing her so hard and pushing all of her buttons. Oof.

 

 

5 hours ago, A.Ham said:

Wow, Randall. He was unforgivably manipulative. Painting himself as a hero for not confronting his mother, only to run around and absolutely guilt trip her into doing what he wants. If he was so concerned about what the confrontation would do to her, he could have found other ways to address that within himself. What a prick. 

I had hoped for a more balanced alternate universe where we got a taste of how it would affect the whole family. Instead, we got this. Meh.

 

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Here is what I will say: You are courting disaster to randomly show up at your birth father's doorstep to announce your presence.  Jack really needed to be the adult in that scenario, prepare his son for what could be a horrible meeting, so even if you end up with a tearful kid in the car after everything goes down, it's less devastating because it's less unexpected.  

It's also nice to see that "our timeline's" Randall really is the darkest one.  I mean, manipulating your ill mother to do a nine month clinical trial in a strange city (AGAIN WITHOUT EVEN DISCUSSING IT WITH HER HUSBAND!) after she's already made her feelings clear is pretty low.   

 

4 hours ago, willco said:

Oh, Randall ! I thought he was actually going to come to his senses and therapy would help him. And it seemed likely until the last 10 minutes or so, when he bullied ( or guilted ) Rebecca into the trial ! He doesn't seem to get that it should be her decision. She obviously knows that he wants her to do it, but she gave her reasons against it-- that should settle it. Not saying it would be easy to take, but I think it's the right way. Oh well. Shoulda known Randall would get his way.

 

Other than that, I thought the episode was well done. I, too, like "What-if" or alternative timeline stories. Even though she only got a few minutes on screen, Randall should be thanking God every day for Beth ! She is just a gem ( and easy on the eyes, too  !) Hopefully he does, but he doesn't seem like he appreciates her a lot of the time.

 

4 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

So whether Jack lived or died, Randall still ends up a self important asshole with delusions of superiority. Got it.  
The therapist told him to open up to his mother about his anger over her withholding the William info for all those years.  I don’t think for one second the therapist meant in any way, shape or form that Rebecca owes  Randall the chance to continue his savior fantasy.  She didn’t give Randall license to exploit his fragile mother with such an outrageous demand. What a shitty, selfish, self absorbed thing to do. 

Kevin shouldn’t be the only one not speaking to Randall after this.  Beth should kick his ass to the curb too.  Beth is the bigger saint of the Pearson clan than everyone makes Jack out to be, or that Randall sees himself to be. Good God! How has she put up with Randall’s numerous acts of self indulgence?  GAH! 

And what the hell does Randall even know about this trial?  Does he know for sure Rebecca will receive the drug being tested?  Is this a beta test or 2nd generation that has shown some inconclusive but promising results in earlier trials?  Otherwise, it’s really a roll of the dice.  Rebecca could maybe see some improvement. OR her quality of life is diminished more rapidly by being in a strange place, in a clinical environment, away from friends and family just because Randall “never asked her for anything”. 
 

Why the fuck does Randall act like Rebecca was some horribly abusive parent that he had to take of and therefore missed out on his childhood?

What she did with William was wrong but this woman loved Randall and worked hard for him to have a wonderful life. She does not “owe” him anything.

Randall needs to go live with Deja’s life to understand how it’s like to have a mother who can’t or won’t care for you.

[bybrandy]

During his whole, "I can't lose you" bit?  I mean she's his mom.  He's going to lose her.  He is going to have to come to terms with that.  It is part of the deal.   We know he has years and years until she's physically gone but taking away time that she might be mentally in control of her life?  If anybody did that to him?  Not cool Randall.  

And I wonder if he'd be so eager to send her off "to not lose her" if she was playing boardgames on the east coast with Beth and the girls rather than in California playing with Kate and Kevin.

[debraran]

7 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

They tried to explain it in the 2nd version by giving her twins.

So I guess Rebecca "wastes" 9 precious months on the trial.

Oh, I see, but they were 2 or so? I would see babies more that way.  I had twins so didn't correlate it. Face wasn't effected. But I guess you are right and those weird half of her body in the clip photo. That scene with Kevin and the girls was angled funny like they were trying to cut out part of her.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Even if Randall's biological mother quit drugs when she was pregnant with him, there would likely have been at least a month before she knew she was pregnant.  Perhaps his very early pre-natal exposure to drugs damaged him in some way that manifests as extreme anxiety, which he can only suppress if he is in control.  (In other words, it's his other mother's fault.)

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 minutes ago, debraran said:

Oh, I see, but they were 2 or so? I would see babies more that way.  I had twins so didn't correlate it. Face wasn't effected. But I guess you are right and those weird half of her body in the clip photo. That scene with Kevin and the girls was angled funny like they were trying to cut out part of her.

Some people never lose the baby weight, but that would be a lot of baby weight, even for a mother of multiples. 

For those conspiracy theorists who thought that the actress had secretly lost significant weight and was padded this season, this is the episode where the pads would have come off, because with Jack alive, there would be no reason for Randall to think Kate would have gained so much weight.

Edited March 18, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[debraran]

5 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Even if Randall's biological mother quit drugs when she was pregnant with him, there would likely have been at least a month before she knew she was pregnant.  Perhaps his very early pre-natal exposure to drugs damaged him in some way that manifests as extreme anxiety, which he can only suppress if he is in control.  (In other words, it's his other mother's fault.)

I was thinking that too, they made him so unattractive. I also felt it was "filler" a lot of the show, it could have been done in half the time and had the fallout the second half.

Yes, I agree, if she lost weight, it was for this show. She didn't and I know she was heavier to begin with but at that age, to gain that much weight with twins, all over and keep it all, No.  First thing I thought of when they were all eating together and I feel bad about it, "Kate is very heavy and there was no Jack to mourn and eat junk food" that Kevin talked about first year.

Is there anyway we are wrong? When she was at party was this year, this summer, would that be 9 months or did she drop out or not go? Do you think she tells Kevin that he manipulated her or Miguel? Please let Miguel get some chutzpah and take his wife back!

Edited March 18, 2020 by debraran

[ElectricBoogaloo]

FUCK RANDALL.

He can take his emotional blackmail and eat a giant bag of dicks. He just wants to get his way because he's worried about how Rebecca's cognitive decline and death will affect HIM. He has no respect for her or he wouldn't have used her guilt about William to manipulate her into getting his way.

I don't care how much you love someone. That never gives you the right to take away their right to make their own medical decisions while they are still mentally able to do so. Yes, Rebecca has some memory problems but she is clearly still lucid and logical enough to make her own decisions.

But Randall doesn't care what Rebecca wants or respect her choices. All he cares about is what HE wants so he is steamrolling his own mother because he is always right and everyone who disagrees with him is wrong. On top of all that, he is one of those people who can't just let something go. Instead of accepting XYZ, he will hold on to it and take it out so he can obsess about it and seethe about how he knows best but no one will listen to him and then when it's roiling he does something even bigger to prove that he was right.

I was SO glad when Randall's therapist interrupted his ridiculous fantasy of how perfect his life would have been if Jack hadn't died. Finally, someone on this show who stops a Pearson speech!

On a lighter note, I loved who utterly terrible Toby was at Pictionary. You can't draw two parallel lines and expect anyone to get "mission from Mars."

7 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

I loved the actor who played the therapist.

 

6 hours ago, slasherboy said:

That's Pam Adlon and she has her own show called "Better Things".  She used to be on Louis CK's show too.

 

6 hours ago, Roxie said:

Way back, she was also the voice of Bobby Hill on "King of the Hill."

And Marcy Runkle on Californication! If you want to go really old school, she was Dolores, the younger sister of one of the Pink Ladies who befriends Michael, the main character in Grease 2.

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[JudyObscure]

"This is Us," is the only show that my husband actually turns away from the computer and watches with me and even my son comes home from work at about 9:05 and sits and watches it. Last night we all missed the first minute and were sitting slack-jawed, watching that alternate universe, when we heard the therapist say, "That's enough Randall," and we all three burst out laughing. I loved the whole show even sexy Bad Randal, unsatisfied  with all his womens because he hadn't met  Beth.

Of course the ending was terrible for Rebecca, but Sterling K Browns face was so incredibly sad I couldn't help feeling his pain.  Really Randall?  You never asked your mother for anything?  I guess you didn't actually ask her to breast feed you to the point of exhaustion, get you a special barber and find friends for you,  sacrifice a ton of money to send you to a special school or spend every waking moment putting your needs first.  

The clinical trial just can't happen.  Maybe Rebecca's husband will put his foot down.

This incredible show took my mind off the plague for an hour and for that I am truly thankful.

[kili]

I was so angry at Randall emotionally blackmailing his Mom into going into the drug trial.

I felt so bad for Rebecca. As she said last week, she kept putting her life on hold and had finally decided to live it. She was so happy. Now, her son let her know that he actually hasn't forgiven her for the William lie and that he feels that she has unfairly leaned on him since Jack died. So, the least she can do is participate in the drug trial he picked because it is the only thing he's ever asked of her. If she doesn't, he will carry the guilt for the next 20 years. She must say yes now. So, she acquiesces. She puts her life on hold once again.

He appears to have no idea how much she's given him that he needed or wanted. He cannot seem to see the world from anyone else's perspective. He sees nobody else's sacrifices but his own.

He piously tells the therapist that he will not re-litigate the William lie with his Mom, but then he uses it to cut her emotionally open and gives her no path to resolve it. The change in her tone and her facial features after he brings it up is heartbreaking.  He let's her know he has sacrificed himself by sublimating his feelings because he didn't want to give her pain. She must go on the trial so that he does not sacrifice himself again, but it's not actually resolving his feelings about the William lie.

I'm not his therapist, but this entire episode is a convincing case that Randall is a Narcissist.

[DanaMB]

I gave up on this show last season then came back. Has it always been so Randall centric? I’m really getting tired of it. 

[Lady Iris]

I can’t wait to see the actual fallout from Beth and the rest when it comes out how Randall blackmailed Rebecca. I thought just for a moment that she was gonna say no.
 

Way to go Randall. Nothing like emotionally manipulating your mom so that when she’s gone, at least you, can breathe a sigh of relief that you tried and no doubt lord it over your substandard siblings. 

[Jillybean]

6 hours ago, sara416 said:

As a therapist, I have to say that my favorite line of the night was from the therapist saying "I'm a therapist. I don't give advice." Rule #1 in our field, and I wish more people knew it!

Many years ago, I was calling around to try to find a therapist. I spoke to one and told her I did not want someone who would tell me what to do. Based on that, she concluded she couldn't work with me. Always felt I dodged a bullet there.

I didn't particularly enjoy this episode. 

It's been mentioned upthread a couple of times, but it doesn't make much sense that Kate is still morbidly obese in the scenarios where Jack lives. We were previously led to believe that Jack's death is what led to her enormous weight gain, although this season it's seemed more like Marc's abuse is where that trajectory starts. If Jack had lived, it's unlikely she would have met Marc.

I don't know much about clinical trials, but my understanding is that one cannot simply just decide to participate in a clinical trial. Not to mention, she may not get the experimental drug. Since Rebecca is at the cabin in August, she clearly doesn't end up spending 9 months in St. Louis.

Either way, adult Randall has a history of manipulating others to get what he wants, but this instance is really beyond the pale.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Jillybean

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, sara416 said:

As a therapist, I have to say that my favorite line of the night was from the therapist saying "I'm a therapist. I don't give advice." Rule #1 in our field, and I wish more people knew it!

Didn't she say I make observations and ask questions, and commented that she's not a neurologist but Rebecca may not have much time and he needed to talk to her about William?  That observation is advice of a sort, and I don't think it's a bad thing.  He actually listened, and did it, but of course monumentally effed it up. 

I don't really get why they ramped up Randall's anxiety and jerkiness to people before he even knew about Rebecca's diagnosis.  Why go there and make it look like he's tried to tightly control things all his life and especially after Jack died, but was a decent and loving guy, only to throw the curve ball that it was all about Rebecca not telling him about William, which only happened a couple years ago?  That was manipulative to me.  It only recently happened.  Why the build up of him actually being close to his mother all his life, from the beginning of the series we have seen it.  This played false to me, a way to make him into a monster. 

The episode also kind of cleared up for me that Rebecca never did tell Jack, which was an open question for me (unless I missed a plot bit).  If so, it explains to me maybe why she has in her older iterations much more bland in appearance and demeanor.  She's not like pre-Jack's death Rebecca in so many ways.  She's returning a little to that with her carpe diem, but Randall just put the kibosh on that.

[Haleth]

Jack is the reverse George Bailey: things would be worse had he lived.  (Worse for everyone except maybe Kate's daughters who never were.)

Shame on you, Randall, for bullying your mother into doing the trial because it will make you feel better.  Incredibly selfish.  (But kudos to SKB for a great job portraying such a messed up character.)

Season finale next week??!!

9 hours ago, A.Ham said:

Painting himself as a hero for not confronting his mother

Which wasn't true.  Well, maybe not a confrontation but he was clearly furious at her for weeks.  Rebecca knew how he felt.

9 hours ago, BuckeyeLou said:

I did not understand why in one version of Randall's 'fantasies", he had a different girlfriend

He apparently blames Rebecca for losing out on his dream of going to Howard Univ too.

7 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

That makes sense, but then how did she meet him in the first scenario where they were married?  Did Kevin stop working with Jack and head to California sometime later?

Randall probably didn't put that much thought into the lives of his siblings, except to diminish Kevin's fame and wealth.  I bet the writers/producers were trying to figure out how to present a slimmer Kate but couldn't come up with a good alternative.

[Johnny Dollar]

Randall needs to remember that Jack died of a widow maker heart attack. He most likely would not have lived as long as he did in either of Randall’s alt versions.

If I was Kevin, I wouldn’t speak to Randall until Rebecca’s funeral. That is inexcusable and cruel  

Randall used the William card and the “good son” card to guilt Rebecca into the trial. I guess Rebecca gets no points for taking him into her family and not allowing him to end up in the foster care system. That alt version would not have been pleasant and would definitely not involve banging TA’s.

[MissLucas]

Well, fuck Randall seems to be the theme of the discussion and I can't argue with that (or with SKB's stellar acting) but for me there are also some issues with the writing.

First of all that ever since season one I'm waiting for something more substantial on Randall's biological mom. But beyond being a sip of a hot drink she remains an empty shell, the carrier of William's genes and that pisses me off because there's still ground to uncover if we really have to dig deeper into Randall's psychological set-up. There's evidence that anxiety and panic disorders can be genetic - and it's also known that people suffering from those may self-medicate by resorting to drugs. So there would be some potential here for Randall figuring out his 'real' issues (because his anxiety, OCD and panic attacks are not caused by Rebecca lying to him or Jack's death). Why can't we learn more about bio mom for a change???

And I really think season one dealt with the emotional fall-out from Rebecca's lying - why going back there? There are other wells the writers could scoop from - like her dependency on Randall after Jack's death. There's potential for emotional drama we haven't been through already.

Also: I'm really tired of the focus on Randall's various parental dramas. I finally want the sibling dynamics being explored. Even if it has to be from Randall's POV. I hate how often Kate and Kevin are relegated to bit parts in the grand drama of Randall and his endless search for his identity. 

Most of the times I dislike 'what if' episodes and this was no exception. What makes it particularly frustrating is that there was potential for something more intriguing but in the end it was wasted on Randall being a manipulative a**. Maybe the writers want to really challenge themselves by pushing the character so far over the cliff that redemption seems almost impossible. But I'm not really interested in seeing that arc played out since I think it's a trope that works best in superhero shows and not so much in a family drama.

Edited March 18, 2020 by MissLucas

[greekmom]

10 hours ago, debraran said:

I wondered how’d they’d show Kate.   They always blamed her added weight on dads death but even with careful camera angles it was noticeable. Cute little girls though.  I don’t like the different versions taking up the entire show but to each their own. 

I was hoping that in scenario 1 they would have gotten an actress that looks similar to Kate but was average looking (say size 12-14).  I always thought that Kate's weight issues were tied to Jack's death and that asshole boyfriend. 

10 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

No.  It wasn't important to Randall. I'm not sure why he didn't just give her Toby as a husband, as in the first scenario.  Plus, I wanted to know if she had gone to college to study music.

I think she did. Rebecca mentioned how it was nice they were all together and back from college.

My thoughts over all, that Randall is a dick.  He cannot stand Kevin or Kevin's success. I wonder if it's because he is adopted and Kevin is Rebecca and Jack's natural child. I wonder if it's because Kevin actually made it in Hollywood and Randall is jealous of his time in the limelight. 

I don't understand why Randall's 2nd version, Jack would be still drinking. I mean yes, Rebecca kept this secret but Jack also kept secrets (his brother) from Rebecca. Plus as Rebecca mentioned, William was still using at the time.  Regardless of William being Randall's natural father, no parent would want someone who is using around their child.   Jack's character was more forgiving with Rebecca. I could see Jack returning to the bottle if Randall actually froze Jack out as not being his father and turning to William. 

[ShadowFacts]

8 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I don't understand why Randall's 2nd version, Jack would be still drinking. I mean yes, Rebecca kept this secret but Jack also kept secrets (his brother) from Rebecca. Plus as Rebecca mentioned, William was still using at the time.  Regardless of William being Randall's natural father, no parent would want someone who is using around their child.   Jack's character was more forgiving with Rebecca. I could see Jack returning to the bottle if Randall actually froze Jack out as not being his father and turning to William. 

The second 'what if' was what Randall feared would happen if Jack survived.  So he knew Jack was drinking during the time not too long before the fire, and he just feared that would continue to be a problem.  He also apparently thought it was a possibility in the first scenario, we see him with a beer at the table and at an AA meeting with William.  Randall probably got that part pretty right.

17 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Also: I'm really tired of the focus on Randall's various parental dramas. I finally want the sibling dynamics being explored. Even if it has to be from Randall's POV. I hate how often Kate and Kevin are relegated to bit parts in the grand drama of Randall and his endless search for his identity. 

I'm pretty much over all of it, including the sibling rivalry.  It's all too unpleasant, there's a lack of warmth and humor anymore.  I hope next season moves on to new territory, like more of Miguel's friendship history with Jack and getting together with Rebecca, what is happening with Nicky, whose character is interesting to me and the actor is great, Beth and the girls, anything but the big three angst all the time. 

[PRgal]

5 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

About halfway through Randall’s second hissyfit, I couldn’t help but think “I bet Jack is glad he went back into that house.”  His birth mom should consider herself lucky as well.  Holy crap, Randall is exhausting.  

William, too.  Imagine if Randall wasn’t adopted by the Pearsons and William and Randall’s birthmom were clean..... ugh, poor parents!!

[Ohiopirate02]

4 hours ago, bybrandy said:

During his whole, "I can't lose you" bit?  I mean she's his mom.  He's going to lose her.  He is going to have to come to terms with that.  It is part of the deal.   We know he has years and years until she's physically gone but taking away time that she might be mentally in control of her life?  If anybody did that to him?  Not cool Randall.  

And I wonder if he'd be so eager to send her off "to not lose her" if she was playing boardgames on the east coast with Beth and the girls rather than in California playing with Kate and Kevin.

I do wish the therapist had pointed out that the only way for Randall not to lose Rebecca is for him to die first.  

I can't see Randall expecting Rebecca to move halfway across the country for this trial if Rebecca and Miguel had moved to Philly last year.  He would have looked to see if she could be part of the trial while still staying at home.  Because, you know, he cannot lose her.  Rebecca spending nine months in St. Louis would be him losing her.  He is still pissed that she dared to move to be near Kate and Kevin.  I really hope that the confrontation next week is Kate laying in to Randall instead of Kevin.  Kate and Baby Jack are the ones who stand to lose the most if Rebecca goes to St. Louis.  Randall was able to have Rebecca through the first years of both of his daughters.  Years from now he and his girls can reminisce about Grandma because she was there for them.  He is denying Kate and Jack the same thing.  

[Trillian]

39 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I was hoping that in scenario 1 they would have gotten an actress that looks similar to Kate but was average looking (say size 12-14).  I always thought that Kate's weight issues were tied to Jack's death and that asshole boyfriend. 

I wonder if they could have successfully aged up the actress who plays teen Kate, and used her more plausibly. 

[Roxie]

What is Randall going to do if Rebecca is not accepted into the trial?

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Roxie said:

What is Randall going to do if Rebecca is not accepted into the trial?

I think we know the answer--barge in, give his patented Pearson monologue about why Rebecca is so important to him the guy with two sets of parents, etc. until the doctor in charge relents and admits Rebecca into the study.  

[ams1001]

2 hours ago, Jillybean said:

It's been mentioned upthread a couple of times, but it doesn't make much sense that Kate is still morbidly obese in the scenarios where Jack lives. 

Problem is, they can't have Chrissy in the scene and have her be thin (unless they want to do some major digital editing, I suppose), even if it would make more sense that she wouldn't have gained so much weight if Jack had lived.

2 hours ago, Jillybean said:

I don't know much about clinical trials, but my understanding is that one cannot simply just decide to participate in a clinical trial.

Yeah, I was thinking about that, too. She can't just show up and say, "Hey, sign me up!" It's not a class at the local community college. The people running it would have to evaluate her and see if she's a candidate to participate. And Randall isn't thinking about the possibility that she would not get the treatment they're testing, or that the treatment will be ineffective, or even that it could make things worse. He says, "This could save her life." But it could also ruin it.

I was hoping that at the very least, she would agree but be rejected for some reason or another. But then Randall couldn't hold that over the others' heads.
 

[kili]

It's interesting who qualified and didn't qualify for inclusion in Randall's fantasy. Kate's life was relatively unchanged (although she earned herself a different husband in the reboot). Kevin is a semi-successful member of Jack's company proud that they scored a contract from the city to build two houses (what major city contracts companies to build two houses? Two apartment buildings, sure. A housing development, maybe. And I guess no individual wants to buy those beautiful houses that Jack designs). Rebecca remains the same - there to dote on Randall - just either happy or sad depending on the vision. Jack is Jack - either forgiving or not of his wife.

Speaking of forgiving Rebecca, I notice that Nicky doesn't rate any mention at all. When Rebecca was telling Jack that she doesn't want to keep any secrets, Jack gets to be shocked and outraged at her behaviour and lack of trust. I guess Jack didn't have the epiphany because he might have remembered that he too had a secret in Nicky. But, Randall doesn't care about Nicky, so he doesn't factor into the fantasy of post-fire Jack's reaction. Sorry, Nicky, enjoy your leaky trailer. William gets your turn as Pilgrim Rick. 

[movingtargetgal]

7 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I can't see Randall expecting Rebecca to move halfway across the country for this trial if Rebecca and Miguel had moved to Philly last year.  He would have looked to see if she could be part of the trial while still staying at home.  Because, you know, he cannot lose her.  Rebecca spending nine months in St. Louis would be him losing her.  He is still pissed that she dared to move to be near Kate and Kevin.  I really hope that the confrontation next week is Kate laying in to Randall instead of Kevin.  Kate and Baby Jack are the ones who stand to lose the most if Rebecca goes to St. Louis.  Randall was able to have Rebecca through the first years of both of his daughters.  Years from now he and his girls can reminisce about Grandma because she was there for them.  He is denying Kate and Jack the same thing.  

Randall always needed to have "mommy" to himself.  He loved the fact that his siblings were living across the country.  When baby Jack was born and Rebecca moved to LA to help Kate caring for a special needs baby, Randall was pissed and JEALOUS.  The fact that mommy would also be living near Kevin instead of him sent Randall over the edge of reason.  

Randall keeps throwing it in Rebecca's face that HE took care of her when Jack died.  The fact is that Randall was being self-serving.  In his mind, being mommy's helper gave him an edge up on his siblings.  He was the "good" son.  I think Rebecca was really strong after losing everything, including Jack in the fire.  Randall attended college nearby so he could help is mother was because HE needed to be needed.

 

[Crs97]

I read an interview with the show runners, and they describe Randall’s manipulation as divisive because half think he made the right call.  Really, show runners?  Who in their right mind thinks this guilt trip is fine?  And funny how St. Jack and Randall conveniently forget Jack’s big secret.  Nope, only Rebecca is the horrible, abusive one.  I hope Miguel, Kate, and Kevin rip into him next week.

[Miss Bones]

11 hours ago, A.Ham said:

Wow, Randall. He was unforgivably manipulative. Painting himself as a hero for not confronting his mother, only to run around and absolutely guilt trip her into doing what he wants. If he was so concerned about what the confrontation would do to her, he could have found other ways to address that within himself. What a prick. 

I had hoped for a more balanced alternate universe where we got a taste of how it would affect the whole family. Instead, we got this. Meh.

I agree.  It seemed lazy, even.  Like they didn't want to even try to flesh out the other characters' alternate lives.

 

10 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Who was the Ethan that Kate was married to in the 2nd scenario?  Have we ever seen or met him before (in flashbacks)?  Since Kevin ends up with Sophie, I thought Ethan must be somebody we were suppose to know.  If the scenario was supposed to be what Randall feared, why didn't they just make the husband Mark?

I'm not sure we've seen the last of Mark.  He may still kill himself or something, so Randall couldn't figure out how he could shoehorn Mark into his fantasy world, in a plausible way.  After all, that would require Randall to think about someone other than himself for longer than he would like.

 

5 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

About halfway through Randall’s second hissyfit, I couldn’t help but think “I bet Jack is glad he went back into that house.”  His birth mom should consider herself lucky as well.  Holy crap, Randall is exhausting.  

hahaha!  Ugh, you're not wrong.

 

4 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

For those conspiracy theorists who thought that the actress had secretly lost significant weight and was padded this season, this is the episode where the pads would have come off, because with Jack alive, there would be no reason for Randall to think Kate would have gained so much weight.

Yes, I meant to add that as part of my post last night, that I was expecting to see Kate a little slimmer, because of all of this talk about the actress being padded.  I thought this was going to be the reveal of the transformation.  Or maybe she is wearing pads still, and that was another way to show what a selfish prick Randall is; that he wouldn't think about that, because it isn't his problem.

 

3 hours ago, DanaMB said:

I gave up on this show last season then came back. Has it always been so Randall centric? I’m really getting tired of it. 

Join the club! 

 

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Randall probably didn't put that much thought into the lives of his siblings, except to diminish Kevin's fame and wealth.  I bet the writers/producers were trying to figure out how to present a slimmer Kate but couldn't come up with a good alternative.

You got it.  One of the reasons that this alternate-reality episode's potential was wasted, because it was in selfish Randall's delusional POV the whole time.

 

14 minutes ago, kili said:

Speaking of forgiving Rebecca, I notice that Nicky doesn't rate any mention at all. When Rebecca was telling Jack that she doesn't want to keep any secrets, Jack gets to be shocked and outraged at her behaviour and lack of trust. I guess Jack didn't have the epiphany because he might have remembered that he too had a secret in Nicky. But, Randall doesn't care about Nicky, so he doesn't factor into the fantasy of post-fire Jack's reaction. Sorry, Nicky, enjoy your leaky trailer. William gets your turn as Pilgrim Rick. 

I was wondering why/saddened we got no Uncle Nicky!  Especially since I noticed Griffin Dunne was in the credits, but then maybe he has been, all this time...even though we haven't seen him in ages!

[gonzosgirrl]

12 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

She probably deteriorates so fast that ethically, they have to stop the trial, or, at least, her participation in it.

I don't think so, because there are years between the scene in the cabin and (presumably) Rebecca's deathbed in the flash forward. I don't think she'd last that long?

Is there always a double blind in a clinical trial? Is there still a chance that she does it, loses those nine months with her family, and doesn't even get the drug?

11 hours ago, slasherboy said:

That's Pam Adlon and she has her own show called "Better Things".  She used to be on Louis CK's show too.

I still forget it's not Janeane Garofolo.

This is the first episode of the show I actively disliked. I guess that was the point (Showrunner says it was meant to be divisive), but oh wow, Randall. WTF? As others mentioned, I do think it's extremely telling that in Randall's AUs, Kevin is not a successful, famous actor. And also that he seems to have forgotten (assuming they all knew) that Jack's heart condition was inherent and he probably would have had that heart attack sooner rather than later. Especially if his 'worst' scenario played out and Jack kept drinking and treated Rebecca like shit for years over her 'lie'. Gah. I hated it.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

The clinical trial just can't happen.  Maybe Rebecca's husband will put his foot down.

This is the best possible outcome, IMO. I hope, hope, HOPE that Rebecca tells Miguel why she's doing it and he flies to Philly and kicks Randall's ass.

[blondiec0332]

4 hours ago, kili said:

I'm not his therapist, but this entire episode is a convincing case that Randall is a Narcissist.

I have always thought Randall was a narcissist. This episode just proved it.

I think Rebecca doesn't get accepted in the trial but Kevin (and maybe Kate) are absolutely furious with Randall for manipulating/bullying their mother. And rightfully so.

Just so I'm remembering things correctly.  We have had one flash forward that is 15ish years in the future and Rebecca is dying and one flash forward that is this September.  Randall isn't shown in the September flash forward but is in the one 15 years from now.  Is that all right?

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, blondiec0332 said:

Just so I'm remembering things correctly.  We have had one flash forward that is 15ish years in the future and Rebecca is dying and one flash forward that is this September.  Randall isn't shown in the September flash forward but is in the one 15 years from now.  Is that all right?

Yes, and they seem to have all reconciled in the 15 yr future.