S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two

[RedDelicious]

6 minutes ago, voiceover said:

There are three types of real barbecue:

Texas.

North Carolina.

Kansas City.

No problem.

You can wiki St. Louis barbecue ribs yourself 😊

What he said was perfectly fine and we knew what he meant. If you don’t think St. Louis style barbecue is a thing, I’d venture to guess you’ve never actually been there 🤔

[thesupremediva1]

Randall is a textbook narcissist and a terrible human being.

I love Kevin.

Justin Hartley is so underappreciated in this show. He's a damn fine actor.

[Mrs Shibbles]

1 hour ago, ScorpioSoul said:

Am I totally off because I see no one else has mentioned it, but when they showed Cassidy did it seem off how they showed off her walking, like she could be pregnant also? She would be further along than Madison. Was I just seeing something?

No you are not off base. I came her to see others’ thoughts on this.

 I thought Nicky’s text to Kevin was congratulating him about Cassidy being knocked up.  There wasn’t any time for Kevin to reach out to Nicky about Madison’s pregnancy.  He just found out, and was even interrupted by Randall before he could even process it.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

 

Beth was cracking me up the whole episode, desperately trying to make a break for it every time Rebecca's treatment got brought up. 

Beth is so subtle in her acting, her humor is like a hilarious inside joke, and when she plays sad or angry or even jealous like she was over Dega's mother, it's always so clear but never broad or forced.  That beautiful woman could carry a whole show, if someone would just write it for her.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

12 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Randall went there first. He absolutely lords himself over Kevin and was completely lashing out because it looked like Kevin might finally be getting a handle on life. Sober for a year, career on an upward swing and caring for others (Nicky, his mom, even Randall), and Randall HATES it. 
 
Ugly things were said, by both of them, but Randall panicked because he knows he stepped over the line with mom, and he went for the jugular. No excuse. 

To be fair, Kevin first said that Randall should have saved Jack, and that if he had been there nothing would have stopped him from going in after him.  We have recently seen that Randall thinks every day about how he should have saved his father, so when he heard that, he quickly came up with that awful lie about how Jack died ashamed of Kevin.  Then Kevin responded.  I do wonder how Randall had that lie about Kevin right on the tip of his tongue, though,  I guess it's because he has no respect for anything Kevin's ever done?  Therefore, if one of his girls skipped college and became an actress, he'd be ashamed of her?

12 hours ago, leftlane said:

No no no. You don't tell an adopted sibling that their adoption was a mistake. Period. Randall was wrong, but he was also truthful. Jack was ashamed of Kevin during that time. Kevin has consistently been an asshole most of his life.

Ashamed of him for what?  Breaking his leg?  Being surly?  Even if Jack had been disappointed in Kevin's behavior, that isn't even close to being ashamed of him.

Edited March 25, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[thesupremediva1]

2 hours ago, Evie said:

Both Kevin and Randall said horrible things.

Madison is the mom, but I think Sophie will be future Kevin's wife.

I believe the same, because there was no other reason to show Sophie at the end. The arc with Kevin had been wrapped up nicely this season. I really thought Madison had it all in the bag until those final few moments. And it wasn't a flashback - that was current Sophie in NY.

Madison is the mom, but I think Sophie ends up his wife. And sue me, that's what I always rooted for.

Edited March 25, 2020 by thesupremediva1

[Adgirl]

On 3/24/2020 at 7:14 PM, Belle Fleures said:

Considering how much the Big Three worship Saint Jack, Randall really bit down when he told Kevin that their father died being utterly ashamed of him. My jaw hit the floor at that point. That was such a low blow, and such a blatant LIE, that Kevin responded in kind -- though not with a lie, but with a truth deep in his heart that had never been spoken until this point.

Randall's comments to Kevin fit his image of Kevin in his "What If's" last week with his therapist. Note in none of the scenarios was Kevin as successful as Randall.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Adgirl

[MBayGal]

“He's Madison’s doctor. That red-haired girl is his daughter, but I don’t know if they’ll have a bigger role next season.”

That girl that Kevin met-in a bar or something when he was living in the trailer next to Nicky had red hair. I thought that the little redhead was young her.  But I guess not.  So was that scene just to give us a reason that the dr said that to Madison?  Too much meaningless filler!!

Last week several people commented that it seemed wrong the no one ever mentioned Kyle.  Now they did!  Fast response, writers!!

[LexieLily]

20 minutes ago, Mrs Shibbles said:

 I thought Nicky’s text to Kevin was congratulating him about Cassidy being knocked up.  There wasn’t any time for Kevin to reach out to Nicky about Madison’s pregnancy.  He just found out, and was even interrupted by Randall before he could even process it.

There's an idea. I thought Nicky's text to Kevin was congratulating him on being one year sober because Nicky had said earlier on the phone that he wouldn't congratulate him until the actual day.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

 There was never any doubt that Madison would tell Kevin (as she certainly should have.) We've seen she can't keep a secret of a personal nature.

3 hours ago, mommalib said:

I don't see them really coming back from the things they said and I don't know if they should. 

Kevin did put his arm around Randall at Rebecca's deathbed, but who knows if they even speak to each other otherwise.

3 hours ago, MissT said:

I think In the future Kate is dead.   During the flash forward from last season Toby mentioned that “Jack and Kate were on their way”.   I think the adopted daughter may be named Kate as well.   

 

2 hours ago, nixgirl28 said:

The daughter's name is Hailey, and he said "they are on the way".

Yes. If he had said "Jack and Kate", we wouldn't have been debating since that time if Kate was still alive; we would have assumed she was.  The "they" could be Jack and Hailey, but not by themselves, since Jack would only be about a year and a half older then the twins.

2 hours ago, HOTNTX53 said:

Looks like Rebecca lives for a very long time based on how old she looks on her death bed and how much older Kevin, Randall and Uncle Nicki looked as well.

Can't be that more than 8-10 years unless Kevin has more kids besides the ones Madison is currently pregnant with.  That would be another twist!

Edited March 25, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[HollyGoLitely333]

30 minutes ago, Mrs Shibbles said:

1 hour ago, ScorpioSoul said:

Am I totally off because I see no one else has mentioned it, but when they showed Cassidy did it seem off how they showed off her walking, like she could be pregnant also? She would be further along than Madison. Was I just seeing something?

No you are not off base. I came her to see others’ thoughts on this.

 I thought Nicky’s text to Kevin was congratulating him about Cassidy being knocked up.

I thought Cassidy was turning up drunk to a meeting outing with Nicky. 

[nilyank]

The brothers had three decades building for those cheap shots at each other.

When Kevin said he would have walked through fire to save Jack, Randall should have reasonably said "with what, one broken leg?" because there was no way that Kevin could have physically done it.

Every look much older than ten years have past, so maybe those were Kevin's younger kids and the twins were not shown yet. They would be closer in age to Jack. We saw adult Tess in the flashforward, so she is at least mid to late 20s which is more than 10 years from now.

[Tabbygirl521]

21 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

Am I wrong? I thought the man with the horse was Madison's OB/GYN as he said to his daughter "I have to get to the office." Then they showed him in his office and putting on the White jacket. The moral of the story there (as I understood) was that the daughter taught a lesson about the horse...how it had been couped up and only wanted to run all this while. Then the OB tells Madison (Re: Kevin) "you need to just give him a chance to be himself," meaning, Kevin is like the horse. Be honest with him & allow him to choose his path in this. Similar also to Rebecca choosing her own path. 

I agree. They showed Doctor Dad in his office looking at a pic of Sadie and the horse, and the dad looked older than in the barn scene. It was all to show he harks back to when his young daughter taught him something important, which he can pass on to his patients.

Miguel is not on board with clinical trial. He and Rebecca exchanged a sorrowful look when the kids weren’t watching. 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Tabbygirl521

[SiobhanJW]

I don’t think Madison is his wife- that’s too tidy. I think he will co-parent with her and he’ll reconnect with either Cassidy or Sophie. My guess is Cassidy- and either Madison will die in child birth or they’ll just be one big happy family. Lol. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

14 minutes ago, nilyank said:

Every look much older than ten years have past, so maybe those were Kevin's younger kids and the twins were not shown yet. They would be closer in age to Jack. We saw adult Tess in the flashforward, so she is at least mid to late 20s which is more than 10 years from now.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I believe that Kevin has another set of kids some years after the twins.  That would explain why he, Randall and Rebecca look so much older, and even why he is wearing a wedding ring (if we don't think he married Madison just because she was pregnant)-he met someone else in the future and had kids with her.  And perhaps "young"  Jack and Hailey are old enough to be coming over by themselves.

[3 is enough]

8 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I agree. They showed Doctor Dad in his office looking at a pic of Sadie and the horse, and the dad looked older than in the barn scene. It was all to show he barks back to when his young daughter taught him something important, which he can pass on to his patients.

Miguel is not on board with clinical trial. He and Rebecca exchanged a sorrowful look when the kids weren’t watching. 

Totally agree that Miguel was not on board about the trial.

Both Randall and Kevin said some horrible, unforgivable things to each other.   It did seem in the future that they made up at some point.  I did get the impression that Kevin seemed to regret what he said immediately after he spoke.  Randall conveniently forgot that Kevin had his back many times when his anxiety attacks got out of control.  But really, they were both at fault.

There is certainly a lot to think about, and who knows when the new season will start.  I am grateful that we got to see the whole season- this will not be the case with a lot of other shows.

 

[colorbars]

3 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I thought Jack was going to say his baby was named Kate, as some kind of sign she is dead in the future. My second guess was Rebecca.  But I like Hope, naming after people is overdone.

I was definitely waiting for him to say Rebecca, but I figure since he was probably fairly young when she died, and probably not very lucid before then, that would ring kind of hallow. I don't think he had much of a relationship with her. I also thought Kate was a possibility, but I guess that might have tipped the scale in the Kate Is Dead theory too much.

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In the cabin flash forward he tells the cops his fiancee is having morning sickness, so it's a logical assumption he's married to his kids' mother.

I do think she's the fiancee from that scene, but I think they'll have a fairly loveless engagement until they eventually decide that they don't want to get married and don't have to. I'd guess his wife in the Rebecca flash forward is someone else.

3 hours ago, MissT said:

I think In the future Kate is dead. During the flash forward from last season Toby mentioned that “Jack and Kate were on their way”. I think the adopted daughter may be named Kate as well.   

I definitely think they want us to think that, but I'm not convinced yet. If she's not dead, I'd think she's definitely not with Toby anymore. They've teased both of those possibilities with the Toby in the flash forwards.

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

He was Madison's OBGYN.  I'm not sure why the writers felt we needed to spend so much time with such a tangential character. 

It was a simple misdirect and way to introduce the Madison reveal. The girl might come up some other way, but I think people are overthinking it.

2 hours ago, Domenicholas said:

I did not catch that Nicky was married in the future. I hope it's not Rebecca; I can't bear to see another husband play second fiddle to the memory of Jack. It could be Cassidy because I don't think that she showed up at his trailer for nothing. She may just be a friend of the family but, as Madison shows, friends either become family or disappear.

I assume she just showed up for the same reason Sophie was briefly show, to remind people that just because Madison is Kevin's baby mama, doesn't mean that the mystery of his future wife is solved yet. There are still possibilities. Plus, it makes sense she'd still be friends with Nicky.

[bros402]

Both Randall and Kevin went too far in their comments - and honestly, when Hope was being born, I was so expecting Dr. K to appear, of course as a dried husk/clone, but it would have been absolutely hilarious

[CarpeFelis]

Me when Randall said Kevin was always chasing his (Randall’s) shadow...

[CarpeFelis]

I got the impression when Kevin was greeting his kids that he hadn’t seen them in a while, so my guess is they live with Madison at least part of the time and he is married to someone else.

[NUguy514]

I felt there was too much time wasted on unnecessary and unimportant characters: Madison's OB/GYN and his horse-whisperer daughter and Dr. Lemonwise (whom I've never, ever liked as his sagacity has always read as poorly written and false and as he makes Jack look positively taciturn and down-to-earth by comparison).

I'm not pleased that Madison is Kevin's baby mama, partially because I would never buy them as a couple after just one twins-producing hookup and no real connection beyond Kate (it would be like the entire movie Knocked Up, which was and is utterly offensive in its unbelievability) and partially because the nepotism involved annoys me.  If Kevin ends up married to someone else, though, I'll unclench a bit.

I did like that Rebecca and Jack talked about Kyle; that felt honest and welcome.

I love that Kate and Toby adopted another kid.

I knew exactly what Kevin was about to say when he geared up for his ultimate comment to Randall; it was very terrible, but I understood completely why he said it.  Randall has utterly no ability to be honest about anything.  He (with Rebecca covering for and enabling him) lied to Kevin and Kate about why Rebecca changed her mind and flatly refused to own any tiny part in it when Kevin called him out, which was both extremely cowardly and laughably transparent.  Kevin knew Randall had forced this for his own selfish purposes, yet Randall canNOT for the life of him acknowledge that he is in any way imperfect or how well Kevin knows him (the reverse, however, is not the case).  Those truly disgusting comments about how Jack was ashamed of Kevin and how Kevin's always been chasing Randall himself (uhhhh, WTF?) were textbook examples of projection.  None of that was about Kevin; it was all about Randall, but Randall has no ability to recognize that, just like Randall can't recognize his own hypocrisy in treating Kevin as nothing but a shallow, stupid fuck-up who runs away from his problems (I mean, fuck, Randall, you literally run to avoid your problems) yet turns to him every time he has a panic attack because Kevin's the only one who can help him.  After being pushed and shat upon and pushed and shat upon, it's no wonder Kevin finally snapped and went for the jugular for once; he just wanted, for once, to hurt Randall.  Kevin looked immediately regretful of his comment, and Randall didn't; Kevin lied to Randall to hurt him and knows it, and Randall lied to himself to hurt Kevin and doesn't know it.  And that's the difference between them.

In short, Randall:

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Randall is a textbook narcissist and a terrible human being.

I love Kevin.

Justin Hartley is so underappreciated in this show. He's a damn fine actor.

That's the kind of thing that wouldn't have been said about Randall after season 1 but here we are. And it sound like somebody doesn't appreciate the shine Sterling K gets even though it's deserved. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, BuckeyeLou said:

Yep, that's what we will all be doing 🙂  The Man with the horse left to go to work & we see him put on a white doctor coat & then walk in to talk to Madison.  He encourages Madison to talk to the Father & then quotes what his daughter said about the horse "let him go free".

2 hours ago, Aileen said:

I feel like everyone’s really overthinking Sadie. She told her dad that he wasn’t giving the chance to be himself away from the other horses. He then told Madison in the future that she needs to give the father the opportunity to be himself. I truly don’t think there’s anything more to Sadie than just inspiring his comments. 

1 hour ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I agree. They showed Doctor Dad in his office looking at a pic of Sadie and the horse, and the dad looked older than in the barn scene. It was all to show he barks back to when his young daughter taught him something important, which he can pass on to his patients.

I missed the very beginning, so I was a bit confused and this helps.

I'm glad that this is likely all that this is. With all the Jack and Rebecca looking at photos and videos of the pregnancy to reminisce and deal with their lost Kyle, I was so - apparently unnecessarily - concerned that something was going to happen to the "horse-whisperer" daughter ***.  As in that after he left, she had an accident with the horse and had died - and that's why he was looking at that older photo that way (rather than a newer photo?)

But then the doctor gave the advice about letting him go free, and the daughter having an accident would entirely have negated that as being sage advice, so whew, that bullet dodged.^^^

*** For some reason I found that set up kind of ominous, but likely that's all on me, since I am somewhat afraid of horses - my definition of them since I was a kid is "large animal that can step on you" (though "kick" could also replace "step on" now that I am older) - so I was likely projecting there. I have issues. Heh!

^^^ But I had entirely expected that the dad leaving the girl alone with that big "free" wanting horse to go to work to lead to bad, bad things for a moment there. Again: issues, apparently.

[LexieLily]

Is it just something as simple as, this episode was called Strangers Part Two, the season premiere was called Strangers, so they wanted the three "strangers" to be in both episodes and that is why Cassidy and Malik were shoehorned in for one superfluous scene each?

[The Ringo Kidd]

5 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Kevin is nothing more than a drunk.  What do you get when a horse thief gets sober?  You get a sober horse thief.  What do you get when an asshole gets sober?  You get Kevin.

What do get when you have a pompous control freak asshole as an unwanted addition to your life. You get Randall.

Kevin only told the truth. Both Kate and Kevin got messed up because of Randall. If he wasn’t around they would have had much better lives.

[RachelKM]

I'm surprised everyone is so convinced that Kevin's kids were 10 or under. I thought they looked 12 or over.  I looked up the actors and, while there are no ages listed for them on IMDb, the summary for Preston Oliver (the boy who played Kevin's son) says be became interested in acting in 5th grade.  Since he had acting credits going back to early 2019, he is likely at least 12 unless he 1) skipped grades and 2) got primetime guest roles immediately upon having the notion he wanted to act.

As for how Jack might be "on his way," it is possible that the they meant he and Hailey (ugh, Hailey and Hope) are on the way.  Hailey could end up being older than Jack. Kate was looking at images of kids who were already older toddlers.  So they might adopt a kid who is 3 or 4, rather than an infant. 

I like both Randall and Kevin.  I liked them both from the start and was never a keen on Randall as other in S1 since I thought he was a right ASS to just move his father into his family's home without discussion.  And I always thought there was more to Kevin than we were shown in the beginning.

My take is that Randall went harder and deeper and that Kevin lashed out with the meanest thing he had in the recesses of cruelest feelings in retaliation.  I also think that telling a sibling your parent died ashamed of them is more painful and insidious than telling one you wish they'd never been born or adopted (though I acknowledge that adoption carries some additional potential insecurities to wound). Sticking a knife in about a dead parent is something that sibling cannot truly resolve since the parent is gone.

Also, it wasn't true. 

Also, this:

9 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

Kevin looked immediately regretful of his comment, and Randall didn't; Kevin lied to Randall to hurt him and knows it, and Randall lied to himself to hurt Kevin and doesn't know it.  And that's the difference between them.

I saw above someone said Kevin couldn't even care for himself as a self-involved drunk until he go sober.  But I don't recall that he was an addict before his knee injury. As for being able to care for himself, he was shallow and immature, but he was working and taking care of his responsibilities.  Yes, he had an assistant (in Kate), but that doesn't mean he was a total feckless fuckwit. And we've seen a lot of growth from him over the last three years.

I can see why Kevin leaving and apparently living a mostly charmed (and,to Randall's mind, uneared) life would rankle Randall as the kid who stayed.  But, damn, Randall cannot deal with Kevin being successful. That shit about following in his and Jack's shadows was UGLY. 

Add me to the list of people who like Madison.  I thought she was the best option from this year for the baby momma.  I don't know if she is who he ends up married to, but I would like to see them build a real relationship. I'm a sucker for unlooked for love.  In either case, I don't want it to be Sophie.  There is WAAAAAY too much water under that bridge. 

Good bless Beth.  She was lovely as always both in person and manner. I loved her repeated escapes from the minefield every time Rebecca's care came up.  Also, her knowing ushering everyone out when she realize the Pearson Bros were about to blow. I also appreciate that she was clear with Randall that she thought his methods were shitty, but she remained his partner and supported him, if not his actions.

Edited March 25, 2020 by RachelKM

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, I loved how Beth just kept making lame excuses to leave the room during Jack's birthday party.

Apparently I am the worst aunt ever because I have five nieces and nephews who live in Chicago and I have never flown across the country for their birthday parties. Sorry, kiddos, your aunt isn't made of free airline tickets.

It totally amused me that Toby clearly wanted Kevin and Randall to ask about this big super secret "only the three of us" thing that he, Kate, and Jack were going to do but every time he brought it up, Kevin and Randall's response was ,"Whatever, have a great time BYE!"

Randall continues to be the worst. He kind of copped to what he did with his vague "I did what I needed to do" explanation to Kevin but then started running away at every chance he got because he didn't want to admit the full extent of the shittiness of what he had to do to get Rebecca to agree to do the trial. If you're going to be an emotionally blackmailing shitbag, then at least have the balls to admit exactly what you did.

Fights between siblings can be brutal because they know exactly how to decimate you with just a few words.

Madison handled herself really well when she told Kevin she was pregnant. It was definitely unexpected news for Kevin so I was glad when he told her that he wasn't walking away from her but he just needed to get some air.

Ha, I loved that Sophie's reaction to seeing Kevin's cologne ad was to laugh.

And yay, Rebecca's husband is finally informed in one of her medical decisions!

[Spencer Hastings]

This was a lot to unpack. 

The focus on the OB and Dr. K made me think they are somehow connected.  It could’ve just been that they’re both voice of reason OBs (Kevin’s very own Dr. K) but perhaps Madison’s OB is Dr. K’s grandson. Of course that would mean Dr. K’s grandson AND the Pearsons somehow made it out to California so I digress. 

My mom thinks that Nicky is married to Cassidy in the future.  I hated the idea at first but we don’t see Nicky enough for me to have to deal with Cassidy too much, so I accept. 

Randall and Kevin both suck.  Randall is manipulative.  Kevin has historically been an asshole.  Randall shouldn’t have said that Jack was ashamed of Kevin. Kevin shouldn’t have said that he would’ve saved Jack and he also shouldn’t have pulled the adoption card (although I’m genuinely surprised it took 40 years).  It’s really a pot meets the kettle situation. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Spencer Hastings

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Mrs Shibbles said:

No you are not off base. I came her to see others’ thoughts on this.

 I thought Nicky’s text to Kevin was congratulating him about Cassidy being knocked up.  There wasn’t any time for Kevin to reach out to Nicky about Madison’s pregnancy.  He just found out, and was even interrupted by Randall before he could even process it.

But that would mean Cassidy told Nicky before/instead of Kevin.

5 hours ago, LexieLily said:

There's an idea. I thought Nicky's text to Kevin was congratulating him on being one year sober because Nicky had said earlier on the phone that he wouldn't congratulate him until the actual day.

It was about his sober anniversary.

 

[debraran]

No matter how cruel Kevin was, what Randall did to their mom was awful and dredged up old feelings (no therapy in Pearson family when young) Kevin ran to Randall any time he called, twice or three times we know about with panic attacks. That office scene was heart breaking and the last time, he was there. He loves his family, his girls. What Randall said was dad never was proud of you, died thinking you were a loser, you are not a good actor, not a good person, and I am. So Kevin used the truest emotion he had in his angst. Since birth, Randall was hovered over by his mom, partly because he was different in looks, she knew he'd need more attention, he was anxious, she knew she lied about his parents, she was always trying to fill holes. Kate, enough said, was super spoiled by her Dad, nothing her mom could do would erase that.  Kevin, the pool incident broke my heart, he was forgotten. He saw his siblings in a child's mind, Randall is smart and gets accolades, Kate just exists and is doted on by Dad, I have to do things in a big way to get noticed.

They obviously make up, but Randall didn't have to take care of Rebecca. He hovered the same way. After the initial grief she should have gone to therapy, gotten a part time job, joined groups, tried to find friends. He wasn't the golden boy, he wanted to be a savior.

[Eureka]

8 hours ago, nixgirl28 said:

I'm thinking Rebecca will withdraw from the trial now that Kevin Jrs are on the way and Toby and Kate are adopting. I think that will cause the "not speaking" between Randall and Rebecca/Kate. Obviously the fight started the rift between Kevin and Randall

This is all assuming she even gets into the trial. You don’t just decide to be in a trial. You have to qualify and I think your doctor has to recommend you. They shouldn’t be moving to St. Louis until they knew she got into the trial, but of course it’s tv land so it doesn’t work that way.

[Arcadiasw]

I used to like Randall. Now I want to punch him. 

[Pallas]

22 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Prediction for Nicky's wife: Sally, the girl from his past.

Absolutely. And either Cassidy or Madison will find her.

"Kate's first tooth...Randall's first words...Kevin's first steps..."  Show. She's only a year old. A little early to decide that the girl-child doesn't do anything?

"You gave up on him a little quick there, don't you think?" said the doctor's daughter to Madison her father about Kevin the metaphorse. And that's the moment when an otherwise ordinary OB/GYN became Kevin and Madison's Dr. K: the physician who makes families on the side. 

[Haleth]

Omigosh, that fight was hard to watch.  Both of them knew exactly where to stick it to the other.  It killed me that each of them went there.  We know their alienation lasts for months, I hope Kevin's hand on older Randall's shoulder means they've reconciled before gathering for Rebecca's last days.  I don't mean to blame Rebecca for their fight, but if she had stuck to her decision and not let Randall bully her he would have been pissed for a while but gotten over it and those terrible words would not have been spoken between the brothers.  So sad.

Then the joyful revelations-- Jack has a sister and Madison and Kevin have twins!  I kept wondering who the horse people and the gallery woman were.  The Pearson family keeps growing!

As usual, Beth is the smartest one in the room.  Always.

Other little things I loved-- Rebecca and Jack finally mention Kyle.  Sophie laughing at Kevin's ridiculous cologne ad.  Dr Major Dad being awesome as always.

How did I miss that Nicky is married?

[Blakeston]

8 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Randall lorded everything from his grades to his favored child status over Kevin throughout their childhood. 

When did Randall ever lord his favored child status over Kevin when they were kids? Randall clearly was the favored child, but I don't recall Young Randall ever actually pointing that out to Kevin.

Re: Kevin's "worst day of my life" comment - Randall was being a huge asshole, and was certainly deserving of a harsh putdown. And I can understand why Kevin would want to go for the nuclear option.

But at the same time, I don't think it was said entirely out of anger. I think Kevin has always felt that way about Randall, and it speaks very badly to Kevin as a person.

Kevin has always resented the shit out of Randall, and not just because he was the favored child. Kevin felt entitled to be the star of a "normal" family, and couldn't stand that Randall was better than him at a lot of things, like schoolwork and being responsible. 

He was much more comfortable with a sibling like Kate, who rarely outdid him at anything. And he resented Randall for making the family less "normal.".

As much as Kevin has been likable lately, he's always seen Randall as an interloper, who denied him the complete spotlight he's always felt entitled to. Like most of the characters on the show, he needs therapy badly.

[debraran]

48 minutes ago, Haleth said:

As usual, Beth is the smartest one in the room.  Always.

Other little things I loved-- Rebecca and Jack finally mention Kyle.  Sophie laughing at Kevin's ridiculous cologne ad.  Dr Major Dad being awesome as always.

How did I miss that Nicky is married?

Well, the last hug in Rebecca's room with Nicky showed a ring, a TIU clue. ; )  I feel Kevin aged a lot from 40-50. I feel most of my friends, it was noticeable more 50-60, but they had to make him seem older than he was with Madison finding out.  Was the last scene with Rebecca really only 10 years later? The kids weren't that old, they weren't preteen it seemed. Watching it again, this young man seems younger, but older actors always play younger on TV so his real age is not too pertinent.

Loved Beth too, I wish she was a little more forward in saying he was wrong, but I don't think it would have mattered. I also wish Miguel had words and Rebecca didn't blame him in her lie. They almost kissed when they were ignoring Kate and Toby, I wish TIU would grow up in that area and just have them show how close they are. Having Kate say they were ignoring them was nice though.

I still hope for Sophie but I'll let it go if need be. Kevin was brushing Madison off and although this is TV, not many men love the woman who got pregnant and had their baby or have a life with the mom, so time will tell. He did say fiance though. Maybe she really is pregnant and Fogleman wanted to write it in.

 

I had twins and I know no Dr K would have me toss my baby who died aside and take home another, not then,maybe later, but definitely not then. I always thought the missing Kyle was the worst part of the show. No momento, grave or picture. No mention of him. He was born, she delivered him, saw him I hope, just so sad.

Edited March 25, 2020 by debraran

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

My take is that Randall went harder and deeper and that Kevin lashed out with the meanest thing he had in the recesses of cruelest feelings in retaliation.  I also think that telling a sibling your parent died ashamed of them is more painful and insidious than telling one you wish they'd never been born or adopted (though I acknowledge that adoption carries some additional potential insecurities to wound). Sticking a knife in about a dead parent is something that sibling cannot truly get resolve since the parent is gone.

A hundred likes to your whole post, particularly this.

Kevin's barbs were the sort of thing my brother might say to me,to which I would roll my eyes.  Then I would have said, "Really Kevin?  You remember the day I came to your family as the worst day of your life?  You were what, one day old? Weren't you busy learning how to breath outside the womb?  You would have run back in the house and saved Dad?  Did you think he died in a burning house?  He went back inside the house for about sixty seconds, you wouldn't have had time to climb back up to the window even if your leg hadn't been broken.  Dad walked out under his own steam, no help needed.  He died in the hospital from a heart attack.  Try to keep up!"

On the other hand if my brother told me that my parents had been ashamed of me while they were alive I would have been devastated.  We know it's not true.  Didn't Jack leave a loving note for Kevin on his bedroom door that night?

Kevin's words seemed like spur of the moment anger, while Randall's seemed like long held honest beliefs about Kevin.  He even belittled his acting!

I can't hate Randall though.  I hope he tells his therapist everything that was said and they work through the reasons for it all.  He'll always get cut extra slack from me for his "adopted and growing up in a white family" issues.

I can't help myself, I want Kevin to go with Madison to the child birth classes and the two of them to fall slowly in love.  Sophie has had many chances and never seems to want to take that leap with Kevin, plus she has a man who loves her.  Same with Cassidy, her husband  seems to care deeply about her, he just didn't want her around their son while drunk.  I just like Madison best, she has a sweet sense of humor and has shown such unselfish kindness with Kate. 

I thought the little girl twin of Kevin's looked so much like Madison she might actually belong to the actress. 

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

I believe the same, because there was no other reason to show Sophie at the end.

Sophie and Cassidy were shown to illustrate how Kevin screws up his relationships and how momentous his decision was that the baby would be the love of his life.  He tried a couple times with Sophie and they just are not compatible.  I don't see Sophie agreeing to marry him again and being stepmom to his twins.  That's asking for more heartache.  Run, Sophie!

5 hours ago, colorbars said:

In the cabin flash forward he tells the cops his fiancee is having morning sickness, so it's a logical assumption he's married to his kids' mother.

Apologies, I know this quote should be attributed to someone else.  I think "morning sickness" is confusing people.  The woman in the cabin is undoubtedly Madison even though morning sickness implies early pregnancy.  Poor Madison if she goes through the whole pregnancy feeling sick.

The argument about who was worse in the fight, who said the worse things, is harsh.  I feel Kevin and Randall were equally horrible to each other, saying the one thing that would hurt the most.  It doesn't make either of them evil (and as much as I hate that Randall bullied Rebecca into changing her mind, it doesn't make him evil either), as much as it makes them human.  The writers did an excellent job in showing them to be flawed but recognizably real.

[ShadowFacts]

To get just a bit away from the who was worse, Kevin or Randall, and who is married to who in the future, something (besides the pop-in visit to Dr. K) that rang false was Kate and Toby deciding in the parking lot to adopt.  Just a tad impulsive there.  Toby recognizes he hasn't been his best self, likes what he sees of Kate's family interactions (?), Kate is like nah, they spin around the parking lot and voila! yeah it's a great idea, let's do it. 

[Scarlett45]

26 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Kevin has always resented the shit out of Randall, and not just because he was the favored child. Kevin felt entitled to be the star of a "normal" family, and couldn't stand that Randall was better than him at a lot of things, like schoolwork and being responsible. 

Yeah and where does this entitlement come from? It’s likely that Kevin would feel the exact same way if Kyle had lived, because Kyle (who may have been his identical twin and thus just as handsome, straight and white) may have been the responsible dutiful son and Kevin would still be the “fuck up”.
 

Someone theorized once what would Kevin be like if Kyle had lived but had been severely disabled due to complications from the birth- this has intrigued me because Kevin reminds me a LOT of some people I have me in my support groups for Siblings of those with disablities, they are angry their sibling stopped their family from having a “normal” life (which always tends to mean white and heteronormative in our society for some reason). They are angry they are the “normal” one who didn’t get all the attention cause they are capable of wiping their own ass and brushing their own teeth in their 20s/30s. 
 

Again, Randall was WRONG for the things he said to Kevin, and he was absolutely wrong for the guilt trip he laid on his mother, but Kevin has major entitlement which is often rooted in insecurity. He needs to spend more time working on that to be a better person. Just like Randall needs to stop being a selfish emotional blackmailing asshole towards his MOTHER. 

[Jax7917]

If they really wanted to do a twist , they should have had Madison pregnant with one kid , and in the final scenes at the end when Kevin’s son walked in the room , they should have had his other child walk in so we’d have to guess if he had another child with Madison or if it was with someone else . 
 

i think nickys text was about being one year sober , not about becoming a dad . 
I think Cassidy maybe marries Nicky . I do think Kevin will end up with sophie unless next season they build up madison and Kevin’s relationship and create a love story for them a la Joey and Pacey  . 

1 hour ago, Eureka said:

This is all assuming she even gets into the trial. You don’t just decide to be in a trial. You have to qualify and I think your doctor has to recommend you. They shouldn’t be moving to St. Louis until they knew she got into the trial, but of course it’s tv land so it doesn’t work that way.

It’s the Pearson’s - she’ll get picked for the trial . 

[Quickbeam]

I really liked Madison’s speech. It gave the actor something significant to work with. This is happening, I have a crap health history, never thought I had a chance of conceiving, it’s a miracle for ME, I’m appreciating it for what it is. No angst, no blame. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

I really liked Madison’s speech. It gave the actor something significant to work with. This is happening, I have a crap health history, never thought I had a chance of conceiving, it’s a miracle for ME, I’m appreciating it for what it is. No angst, no blame. 

True but I love how condoms aren’t a thing any more* and people jump into bed with no idea of people’s health history. Even if Madison thought her chances of conceiving were low because of her health, Kevin is a rich good looking actor, who knows what he could have given her besides a baby. (Or vice versa, she’s been on the dating scene too). 
 

*on tv

[blondiec0332]

8 hours ago, ByaNose said:

Yeah, Randall was lying up until the end. He couldn’t own what he had done and basically laid the blame on his mother who has Dementia/Alzheimer's. Good job, Randall you jacka**!

And Kevin (and Kate and perhaps Miguel) don't know Randall used guilt to get Rebecca to do what he wanted. If and when that comes out there Randall should be excoriated.  

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Both Randall and Kevin said incredibly ugly things to each other, but what made Randall worse in my book is that he was claiming to speak on dead Jack's behalf and to know something about Jack's deeply held feelings that nobody else in the family had been privy to. And obviously, what Randall said is not true. We as the audience know that Jack and Kevin had a profound and touching scene together shortly before Jack's death, when Kevin broke his leg and lost the chance at a football career. Yes, teenage Kevin was an ass in the way that many teenagers are, but that in no way implies that Jack was ashamed of him.

That is what makes what Randall said so much worse. Randall has always acted like he knew so much more/better than everyone else.  For him to tell Kevin that whether Randall believed it or not was deliberately hurtful.  Randall had already gotten his way so for him to dig the knife in even deeper shows how selfish he is.  And I don't ever remember younger Kevin ever doing anything that would have made his dad ashamed of him.  As parents we all sometimes feel that our children have done things that have disappointed us but rarely are we ashamed of them. And speaking of a parent being ashamed Randall might want to think about what Jack would think about how he is treating Rebecca and his siblings

[Lady Calypso]

40 minutes ago, Haleth said:

The argument about who was worse in the fight, who said the worse things, is harsh.  I feel Kevin and Randall were equally horrible to each other, saying the one thing that would hurt the most.  It doesn't make either of them evil (and as much as I hate that Randall bullied Rebecca into changing her mind, it doesn't make him evil either), as much as it makes them human.  The writers did an excellent job in showing them to be flawed but recognizably real.

I agree with this. I don't think one was worse than the other, or one was better than the other. What both Randall and Kevin said was inexcusable and...maybe not necessarily unforgiveable, but definitely cruel and puts them both equally at fault for their estranged relationship for the near future. No matter what Kevin was going through, he shouldn't have said what he said. Randall's adoption is clearly something that has affected Randall his entire life and throwing that in his face, that Kevin didn't want Randall to be adopted, is cruel. No matter what emotions Kevin was feeling over the whole day, what he said was downright cruel. It's not like he blurted it out; he did think about it and said it to get in the final word. So, even though I genuinely love Kevin, this was a low point for him. He was wrong. No matter what Randall did and said to him all day, he could have made the choice to not say anything back and he chose to dig in to Randall's deepest insecurity (or one of them). 

But so was Randall, who decided to bring in their dead father into their fight. What Randall said about Jack being ashamed of Kevin before he died was equally as cruel. We already know that Kevin has some regrets over how his relationship with Jack was before his death. I've already expressed how I've felt about Randall as well, so there's no surprise that I'm equally as pissed off. Randall shouldn't have brought in someone else's feelings (or his interpretation) into their fight. Randall doesn't know what Jack felt or what kind of relationship Jack/Kevin was mending back in 1998. But he also knows, or suspects, that Kevin has probably thought this as well and decided to dig in. That's cruel, but we've seen Randall get in these jabs before. He just went really deep, this time. 

It's just watching both men dig in to each other with what they know would hurt is what sucks. But I appreciate that they went there. I was afraid that they might not go all in on the Big Fight and why the brothers aren't talking on their 40th birthday. So it's good that the show let them go there and say the things that we know have been on their minds for years. 

On another note, it does make me intrigued with a What If Kyle Had Lived episode at some point. I'm just glad that they have finally acknowledged that Kyle had existed. 

[PRgal]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

True but I love how condoms aren’t a thing any more* and people jump into bed with no idea of people’s health history. Even if Madison thought her chances of conceiving were low because of her health, Kevin is a rich good looking actor, who knows what he could have given her besides a baby. (Or vice versa, she’s been on the dating scene too). 
 

*on tv

Condoms were NEVER a thing on TV.

As for Jack and Lucy’s daughter, Hope...that’s such a 1990s soap opera name!!!  Homage to Uncle Kevin’s time as a soap actor (I wonder if Kevin did more than just the non-speaking role on Days...)

 

ETA:  “condone” is not a form of birth control. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by PRgal

[MissLucas]

Well, I'll be here in the shallow end for a moment: I waited throughout the whole episode for that Resistance billboard - brotherly fight be damned! And it did not disappoint, the billboard I mean. Thanks show!

I loved Beth for letting Randall know exactly how she felt about his actions without putting that into words. And for her faces throughout the whole birthday party. She was on a constant countdown and once she realized it was about T minus ten she made sure to get everybody still in the house out of harm's way.

As for the fight itself: I was intrigued by the fact that Kevin used the terms 'narratives' and 'martyr'. He was basically analyzing Randall and doing a pretty fine job about it. Randall on the other hand was spewing out his 'Kevin sucks' fantasies- not all of that was actually wrong but as has been mentioned before Kevin has moved on while Randall is regressing. And of course they both went to the place that hurts the most - which ironically only siblings know how to do properly.

And just to make the point how much Kevin has changed and that he can in fact take care of others: Nicky's text came through the very moment I was wondering if we're about to see Kevin break his sobriety (which would have meant gving in to Randall's narratives). He took care of Nicky and of Cassidy (even though that one got a bit messy in the end) and I think some of that must have gone through his head before he decided to return to Madison and commit to being a father. I was also impressed that he did not spin any romantic tales about how they will make this work together but clearly stated that his kid(s) will be the love of his life. I know others called this a WTF moment but for me there was a beautiful emotional logic at play.

Random observations: Miguel is still just an afterthought on this show. Toby stressing out over the birthday cake was funny - glad he did not suggest nut-cheese as an alternative! Nicky admitting how cute those sneakers were and then panicking about a possible drop in testosterone made me laugh. 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by MissLucas

[Ohiopirate02]

21 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Condone were NEVER a thing on TV.

As for Jack and Lucy’s daughter, Hope...that’s such a 1990s soap opera name!!!  Homage to Uncle Kevin’s time as a soap actor (I wonder if Kevin did more than just the non-speaking role on Days...)

I found out as an adult that if my mother had named me, I would have been named Hope after the same Days character.  

 

16 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Well, I'll be here in the shallow end for a moment: I waited throughout the whole episode for that Resistance billboard - brotherly fight be damned! And it did not disappoint, the billboard I mean. Thanks show!

I loved Beth for letting Randall know exactly how she felt about his actions without putting that into words. And for her faces throughout the whole birthday party. She was on a constant countdown and once she realized it was about T minus ten she made sure to get everybody still in the house out of harm's way.

As for the fight itself: I was intrigued by the fact that Kevin used the terms 'narratives' and 'martyr'. He was basically analyzing Randall and doing a pretty fine job about it. Randall on the other hand was spewing out his 'Kevin sucks' fantasies- not all of that was actually wrong but as has been mentioned before Kevin has moved on while Randall is regressing. And of course they both went to the place that hurts the most - which ironically only siblings know how to do properly.

And just to make the point how much Kevin has changed and that he can in fact take care of others: Nicky's text came through the very moment I was wondering if we're about to see Kevin break his sobriety (which would have meant gving in to Randall's narratives). He took care of Nicky and of Cassidy (even though that one got a bit messy in the end) and I think some of that must have gone through his head before he decided to return to Madison and commit to being a father. I was also impressed that he did not spin any romantic tales about how they will make this work together but clearly stated that his kid(s) will be the love of his life. I know others called this a WTF moment but for me there was a beautiful emotional logic at play.

Random observations: Miguel is still just an afterthought on this show. Toby stressing out over the birthday cake was funny - glad he did not suggest nut-cheese as an alternative! Nicky admitting how cute those sneakers were and then panicking about a possible drop in testosterone made me laugh. 

 

 

I am glad the show included Uncle Nicky in this episode.  His progress shows us that Kevin has changed, and that he is capable of taking care of another human being.  Nicky has months of sobriety under his belt and went to therapy because Kevin barged into his life last year.  Griffin Dunne's face while was talking on the phone to Kevin got to me.  He tries to act gruff but you can see how much he cares for his family.  

Madison dropping that bombshell was both the right time and the wrong time.  I do think that helped Kevin not to relapse.  I still can't decide if Madison or Sophie is endgame for Kevin, but the writers have laid the groundwork for it to be Madison.  I do love the idea of Kevin finding his "great love" because of a one-night stand that blossomed into something more.  Kevin can realize that grand gestures are just gestures and real love is the messy day-to-day things.  

[milner]

I thought that Kevin’s comment to Randall  was the kind of knee jerk comment someone throws out in an argument when ,yes, they are looking to hurt the other.   I know as a teenager I said things like “I wish you were dead” or “I wish you were never born” to a sibling. And never meant them. Randall’s shots seemed more thought out and cruel to me. But that’s just my opinion. 

[blondiec0332]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I don't mean to blame Rebecca for their fight, but if she had stuck to her decision and not let Randall bully her he would have been pissed for a while but gotten over it and those terrible words would not have been spoken between the brothers.  So sad

I don't think he would have gotten over it. Randall  has proven he can hold a grudge. He lets the resentment fester and he ends up emotionally blackmailing people.  If Rebecca didn't do this trial and she got worse (which she would of course because that is the progression of the disease) Randall would forever blame Kevin for not wanting her to do the trial.  On the other hand if Rebecca does the trial and gets worse Randall will not take the blame for that.