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  1. Please come back after season 11 at least. I actually loved most of season 11. It may not be a popular opinion, but season 11 is in my top 5 of all Supernatural seasons. And even though Charlie was gone, Robbie Thompson wrote 4 great episodes (in my opinion - I miss him greatly) with his swan song being one of my most favorite episodes of the series. The main story arc could have been stronger in some ways, but I loved the general tone and attitude of the season. So I'm interested to see what you think of season 11. You may want to skip "Red Meat" though. That seems to be a divisive episode for a lot of fans.
  2. Intense discussion of season 9 coming up. Please skip if you don't want season 9 (and some season 11) spoilers: But did Gadreel really start out with just good intentions? I don't think he did, myself. Gadreel wanted to "redeem" himself by doing something, but that in itself wasn't a selfless act. He wanted to do it to show the other angels who had imprisoned him that they were wrong about him, and revenge peppered his actions in the first half of the season. How was killing a whole bunch of angels supposed to be in any way a good thing? So getting talked into that without any reservations at all is more than a little naive... it is bordering on complicit. Gadreel let himself be talked into it, because he wanted an excuse to do it and be on the winning side. But the crappiness of the redemption story for me was less Gadreel and his change of heart than the lame retcons and having Sam behave out of character in order to play up Gadreel's change of heart. That and Gadreel's redemption took over the end of the season. Some of Gadreel's actions were excused with (paraphrase) "I don't think he felt evil, more misunderstood, but I was wrong, because he killed Kevin" which was a retcon, because Sam didn't even know he was possessed. So Sam ends up putting some of the blame on himself, and Castiel just listens and nods instead of pointing that out. Now some of that is likely because of Buck and Lemming ("King of the Damned" was their episode), but it was pretty huge stuff that didn't get fixed in that script. That, and Gadreel had some pretty mean intentions we saw in the beginning... from invading Sam's private thoughts, to erasing Sam's memories and giving him false memories, to threatening to kill Sam. Much of that was not instigated by Metatron or because Gadreel was duped. That was all Gadreel's decision to do to Sam, because he had an alternative host that was willing. He wanted Sam, because Sam provided him more protection... which was a selfish motivation, but again that wasn't addressed later on as to what Gadreel did to Sam personally. It was just waved away as Gadreel was "misunderstood" and he was instead elevated to "real friend" status and hyped as their only hope to defeat Metatron as part of his redemption. To me, it just felt unearned and lessened the role of Dean and Sam (especially) in the story. If there had been less "Gadreel was duped, he didn't mean to do bad" and more acknowledgement of Gadreel's self-serving behavior as part of his redemption, it would have been different, but there wasn't, so it fell flat for me. Metatron on the other hand: yes, he was a crappy individual... and there was no sugar-coating or retconning of his behavior. He was an angel, and he acted like a typical angel, i.e. a big bag of dicks (TM Gabriel)... but then he had to live like a human being for a while. Metatron learned that human life wasn't always like in the books that he read or the movies he watched. There wasn't always an exciting story or quest. Sometimes it was just hard and day by day. He ended up having to scrounge in a dumpster for food - which he ended up giving to a hungry dog instead. And somewhere along that journey, Metatron learned to appreciate what human beings did as them personally and not just as a good story. As he told Chuck, he knew that they screwed up, but also appreciated how they tried. For me that was an interesting redemption story. An angel who technically knew all about humans, but didn't truly understand any of it until he had to live it for himself. Which is why I thought he made a good choice as the one to talk to Chuck (who also didn't technically understand his own human creations.) And when Metatron sacrificed himself, he did so knowing that it wouldn't make up for what he did. He did it because he truly thought that the world was worth saving. He wasn't doing it to try to redeem or prove himself. He was trying to help save the world. While still being a weasel to the end and not by having to be given some fake "friend" status. Or by taking away from Sam and Dean's part in the story. In my opinion, Metatron's redemption was much more earned, no retcons of his behavior or talking him up scenes necessary. It was more a natural progression of his character, and it was given over 3 seasons to develop. That's why I thought Metatron's redemption arc was better than Gadreel's. It wasn't that I thought Metatron was a better being - though he was a more interesting character for me - it was more that I thought his story arc was much better in terms of construction and the way it played out.
  3. Whereas I preferred the first half and where it looked like it might be leading, but instead it took a left turn and went downhill for me starting episode 12. Like season 8, season 9 seemed to have two different tones depending on whether it was the first half or the second. I didn't like the tone of the second half. I had the opposite reaction. I liked it less the second time around, because I saw things I missed the first time around, and I found myself saying "wait a minute... that's not right..." when I saw them. And by "King of the Damned," I was fairly ticked off at the direction the season had taken, and that episode cemented it as one of my least favorites. Gadreel was a big reason (see below). One of the only things I liked about the season was how it set up Metatron's redemption arc.*** It - unlike Gadreel's - was actually well done, in my opinion, and was given time to progress. Gadreel's was shoe-horned in there, rushed, and mostly unearned. It was one of the main things that made me dislike the season. It's too bad, too, because Gadreel could have been an interesting character for me, but I mostly ended up resenting his presence for taking time and focus away from Dean's story, and for promoting some pretty hefty retcons in order to support his redemption. *** "Don't Call Me Shurley" is one of my favorite episodes of the entire series. Man, I miss Robbie Thompson.
  4. I'll be interested to hear. I somewhat enjoyed season 9 at first also, well until...
  5. This one actually grew on me a little bit over time. The roofie-ing of Sam should be horrifying, but in retrospect of things done to Sam later (especially in season 12) and glossed over, it is almost quaint now. And two scenes stick out as enjoyable - though brief: Jared obviously (to me, and apparently my hubby who was wandering through the room) saying "F$%k you" behind the sock in his mouth and somehow getting it past the sensors and the end scene again where Sam fondly admits to Dean that he does need Dean looking out for him and the accompanying brotherly banter of the scene. I agree with your favorites, and I would add: Plucky Pennywhistle's Magical Menagerie - there was some great fun to be had in that one for me. Sam the "bad cop", "at least I'll see it coming," "Shark week, man... a whole week of sharks," and the unicorn discussion. Sam confronting his clown fear, the giant slinky, Dean having an honest to goodness laugh. I liked the whole thing. Out with the Old - So much fun for me with this one. The Leviathan were amusing, the cursed objects were fun, and Frank's memorable lines. Man, I miss Frank. Meet the New Boss / Hello Cruel World - Death! Crowley hiding from Castiel in a trailer, the time passing as they fixed the car montage (much better for me than flashbacks), and the "stone number one" scene. I really liked this season opening. Repo Man - divisive episode, I know, but I liked this one, dark as it was. I liked the deep dive into Sam's psyche. And if they had showed that - Sam not doing well on his own - I would have been fine with it, but I got the impression I was supposed to be seeing Sam as mostly fine, and that was what angered me. Not only was Sam doing nothing out of character for me (Time After Time wasn't that long ago when Dean disappeared this time), but Sam being "fine" was also. I basically didn't recognize that person onscreen who was supposed to be Sam. Good luck! (I actually disliked season 8 more on rewatch - especially the first half - which I didn't think was possible).
  6. True, but I love the final scene. Sam thanking Dean for getting his soul out of hell - in typical Winchester fashion - is one I always enjoy. Good choice to skip "All Dogs..." though, and the one notable thing about "Unforgiven" is how truly dangerous Soulless Sam was, but the writing wasn't so great on that one, I think. I was a little more okay with how that all turned out than maybe you were. Castiel showed quite a few signs of serious denial of and/or ignoring his own role in how things went down in season 5 ("My Bloody Valentine is a good example), and this was a believable result of that for me. I also felt for Castiel, though, in terms of him being between a rock and a hard place. Raphael did have to be stopped, and Castiel did consider himself from a "better club" than Dean, so not only didn't he want to disturb Dean with all of that after Dean's losing Sam, deep down, he also likely thought Dean wouldn't be able to help anyway. It was also one of the few twists on this show that truly surprised me - that end of "Mommy Dearest" was a total surprise in a good way. Also seeing Castiel out-Crowley Crowley was somehow satisfying for me. Heh. If Castiel thought he was in a "better club" than humans... he surely thought he was in a better one than Crowley. Screwing Crowley over wouldn't have lost him any (metaphorical) sleep at night. I agree with all of this. And I enjoyed that season finale episode more than many and think it is underrated. The way Soulless Sam stands taller with his overconfident bravado whereas regular Sam slouched a little as if he's not so sure of himself. I could tell which Sam was which just by the way they stood... very impressive for me. I'm enjoying your new discoveries from the rewatch. Season 6 was a favorite for me in terms of Jared's acting work, too. I really liked Eleanor, too. I knew the actress from Passions - a guilty pleasure soap opera of mine, for a while. (Timmy, the living doll, is still one of my favorite television characters ever.) I'm interested to see what you think, too! Season 7 is one that I enjoy. It had quite a bit of fun stuff for me. I enjoyed having villains who were at the same time formidable and amusing. (The description of salad is still one of my favorite lines of all time.)
  7. I can't hear "Ground control to Major Tom..." on the radio without smiling. "A Space Oddity" has taken on a whole other level of enjoyment for me now. The whole scene - the website complete with spelling and grammatical errors, the chase around the room, Dean's triumphant "Hah!" when he toasts the fairy - it's all great. But somehow one of my favorite parts is when Dean is so indignant and then disappointed after proudly showing Sam the "blech" that Sam can't see. "It's right there!" Which is even more funny, because instead of being concerned - like real Sam would've been - Soulless Sam's just all "nope, don't see anything."
  8. That's a useful talent! I wish I could wipe out those scenes.
  9. Well, for me - and I realize I'm likely in the minority - if more of Dabb's seasons had been like season 11, I would have welcomed him as a change. As it was, I really liked much of season 11 whereas I HATED what Carver did with the show in season 8 and 9. I have no idea why the J's would have listened to a pitch of season 8 - See *** below - and have actually wanted to do that. I might be alone, but for me, the mind boggles. *** "Well, Purgatory? that's boring. Instead we'll have Sam abandon Dean - and Kevin, too, because why not? - and shack up with an annoying woman whose husband supposedly died but is really not dead at all, so we can have a love triangle. I mean can't you see it, just what supernatural needs: a domestic love triangle, shown entirely through weird flashbacks, that otherwise serves no narrative purpose! And Dean will have a vampire friend, but he can't really have him as a friend, because who would want to see that when we can watch Sam and Dean bitch at and be miserable with each other instead? And Castiel will have some kind of mind problems due to a new antagonist named Naomi... who will turn out not to actually be the antagonist or have any understandable agenda at all, because: reasons. And we'll have an entire arc about trials and closing the gates of hell, except we won't actually do that at all! Because why would Sam and Dean sacrifice to help out the world when they can screw it over instead to save each other? For me, I found season 7 so much more enjoyable than season 8 and 9. *shrug* I liked the Leviathans: Loved Chet, loved Dick Roman, even loved real estate lady and her harried assistant. I loved Frank. I enjoyed Crowley in season 7 - he was a complete asshat in season 8, and I wanted him dead. Like @bethy, I liked that the brothers were on the same page. I didn't even mind the Amy thing, because it was really, really short - compared to half of season 8's and most of season 9's bitch fest conflict - and actually concluded positively. I guess I can understand that the J's might have been dissatisfied with the working conditions under Gamble, but at least their characters were recognizable as Sam and Dean and weren't clubbed with a stupid stick before having to turn in their hero status. I mean the conflict and dissension season 8 caused among the fans - especially with Sam not looking for Dean and ending up being the cause of Benny leaving - couldn't have been fun for them, Jared especially. Just my opinion on that one. I think that episode is underrated and deserves more love.
  10. That seems like a very specific monster - heh. And how would someone even come up with that? "I know! Only cannibals can see it." Or the reasoning why only cannibals could see the monster?
  11. It was the best entrance for me. I loved the music choice, the slow-mo speed-up, everything. Another episode that could have been on my list. I really did love season 5. I think the difference for me between season 4 and 5 - although both were, as you said, tough in terms of the brother relationship - was that I had hope throughout season 5 that things would get better... and they did. I lost hope in season 4 rather early on, "Sex and Violence" pretty much killed it, and by the time of "On the Head of a Pin" it was pretty much a corpse in the gutter. "It's a Terrible Life" was much needed relief, but although I loved that episode and there seemed to be a chance things might leave the gutter, it was almost a mean tease, because it went on a little longer - with the beginning of "Monster at the End...", but the end of that - though a great scene - was an indication that nope, hope is staying in the gutter. And I agree with this: So while both season 4 and 5 had some rough patches for the brother relationship, I enjoy watching season 5 much more than season 4. A good way to look at the contrast for me can be summed up as follows... Both season 4 and 5 had a depressing, rough episode 16 (season 4: On the Head... , season 5: Dark Side of the Moon), but whereas season 5 gave us an 18 and 19th episode of "Point of No Return" and "Hammer of the Gods" (hope and reconciliation), season 4 gave us the end of "The Monster at the End..." and "Jump the Shark" (hope dashed and dissension). That pretty much sums up my takeaway from seasons 4 and 5. Oh, yes. That bloody smile... I don't know how anyone can watch that scene and not know that something was seriously wrong with Soulless Sam and that there was just no "fixing" him or letting him stay that way. But then again, I thought the scene with the callgirl was also telling. Whereas most saw a scene that was saying "look how sexy Soulless Sam is," I was thinking "How is that hooker not running panicked from the room?" Sure, the exercising part was nice eye candy, but then he spoke, and I was completely creeped out.*** It seemed to me like Soulless Sam was seriously thinking about whether it might be interesting to slowly strangle the woman if she didn't leave. That head tilt and the flash of menacing annoyance in his eyes when she started asking questions? I was creeped out. Then the "here's your tip. You're lucky I'm not going to hurt you" look afterwards. The most unbelievable part to me was that sex worker's apparent lack of self preservation. Heh. *** Several layers to his "I'm done" for me... Don't know how she didn't hear "with my workout... and with you. Why are you still here again?" Cuz, that's what I heard. Heh again.
  12. "Point of No Return" is in my top 20 of Supernatural episodes easily, maybe top 10. (It's been a while since I've tried to make a list.)
  13. But I like your words.
  14. You're right ... I kinda inferred it (not sure that's the right use of that word, but meh) from our "bargain" (which I'm keeping things brief on the mentioned eps above, since it was a good idea and I haven't forgotten!) since you offered to throw season 10 on the "forget pile" - except for the demon Dean parts - mainly due to Cole (which yeah, entirely understandable) and super Charlie (also understandable.)*** So that's why I kinda assumed season 10 wasn't a favorite of yours. My bad... *** It's kind of sad for Robbie Thompson that some of his best episodes (in my opinion) came after they killed off his Charlie. I loved all of Robbie's season 11 episodes. "Baby", "Safe House" and "Don't Call Shurley" could all arguably be in my top 25 of the series, and "Into the Mystic" was good also. I entirely understand... no justifications necessary. (To be clear, however, I am not one of those people. I mean come on, Sam killed the nurse. Someone's gonna say Dean's irredeemable for killing Baby Styne? Geesh. Stupid in my opinion *sorry, not sorry*). Edited to add: Excellent point.
  15. Oops I missed one I meant to ask: Would you add any others for season 10? (I think I remember you saying that this was not a favorite season?) Maybe "The Prisoner?" And now that you mention it (and I took a second look and mentioned "The Prisoner"): "King of the Damned?" What was I thinking?!? I don't even like that episode!!! There's a retcon in that episode that's truly AWFUL... My brain took a vacation on that one, geesh... (Hee!) I was thinking of "The Prisoner" from season 10 not that episode from season 9. I am going to edit accordingly, because wow... And the Demon Dean part of "Do You Believe in Miracles" and everything leading up to it was indeed really good. Sam's parts? Not so much.
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