S02.E07: I Want To Know

[mbaywife123]

I don't think Bonnie neither loved or disliked Nathan, she realized she was just apathetic about him.

[ferjy]

2 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Well, there have been many "dream" scenes over the season with Bonnie smothering her mother, and with the choppy editing, people can be forgiven for thinking that she may have had something to with her death. I blame the show, not the viewers.

Absolutely. I wasn't blaming the viewers, just stressing that I thought I'd missed something with all the weird editing like you say, when it was mentioned here.

Edited July 22, 2019 by ferjy

[ECM1231]

3 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

That big scene with Bonnie and Nathan would have been a lot more meaningful if we'd actually been shown them interacting for more than a few seconds throughout the entire series.

I felt sad for Nathan. Obviously for Bonnie to marry someone she never loved, he had to fulfill some kind of need she had. Nathan was a prick to Maddy and their daughter and walked out on them. But he seems to have evolved and really loves Bonnie and their child. He may be a bit clueless but communicating her needs does not seem to be Bonnie's strong suit.

[notnowimbusy]

I was disappointed in the tidy ending.  Bonnie's mother struck a cord with me.  My MIL has a stroke, her kids surrounded her, she was alert, told them she loved them, they left, and she had another massive stroke.  Too close for comfort for me. 

Mary Louise heading back to SF, in defeat, seems unbelievable.  She will fight on for the memory of her son, and to deflect any blame from herself. 

The vow renewal was too trite.  An easy wrap up for Madeline. 

I wanted a solid ending, but too many loose ends for me.

[Ms Blue Jay]

24 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Well, there have been many "dream" scenes over the season with Bonnie smothering her mother, and with the choppy editing, people can be forgiven for thinking that she may have had something to with her death. I blame the show, not the viewers.

There were more hints this episode too - and hints every episode before this one.  Very, very frustrating and annoying.  Bonnie told her father to leave her alone with her mother, then got close to her mother, then said "I think it's time."  So again, they were teasing her killing her own mother.  Then of course her father forgot something and then burst into the room for a dramatic pause - only to find Bonnie simply cuddling up to her mother.

What did her mother say to her towards the end?  Or was that another g*d-damn dream sequence?

Was it at all realistic that a rich, eccentric collector would let Gordon keep all the toys?  I threw in eccentric there for my own poetic license.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

23 minutes ago, ECM1231 said:

I felt sad for Nathan. Obviously for Bonnie to marry someone she never loved, he had to fulfill some kind of need she had. Nathan was a prick to Maddy and their daughter and walked out on them. But he seems to have evolved and really loves Bonnie and their child. He may be a bit clueless but communicating her needs does not seem to be Bonnie's strong suit.

He seemed to be a good husband to Bonnie and father.  Bonnie's issue I guess, is some kind of fear of rejection/abuse maybe so she stayed with a man she knew who loved her.  I am just trying to guess what the writers were going for.

[chocolatine]

8 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Was it at all realistic that a rich, eccentric collector would let Gordon keep all the toys?  I threw in eccentric there for my own poetic license.

I don't think it was realistic. The rich Silicon Valley types are all about flaunting their wealth and the toys they spend it on. It would have been more realistic if Gordon had said the buyer is letting him keep the toys for another week or two while he (the buyer) gets a room in his house set up for them. As for eccentric collections, this seems to be on the very low end of eccentricity for Silicon Valley. 😂 

ETA: as fun as that smashing scene was, if the toys are worth $410k as Gordon claims, I sure hope he had them insured.

Edited July 22, 2019 by chocolatine

[ferjy]

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

What did her mother say to her towards the end?  Or was that another g*d-damn dream sequence?

lol Who knows! I think that one was real, she said "I love you".

ETA: She said “I’m sorry.”

Edited July 22, 2019 by ferjy

[Bama]

I have thoughts.

After paying closer attention to the flashbacks, it’s actually Celeste who suggests the lie first. She says to Bonnie “I pushed him”. Then Maddie says “You (Celeste) didn’t push him, you (Bonnie) didn’t push him. Nobody pushed him”. 

Celeste kicked ass in court. I knew Mary Louise was responsible for the death of her other son.

When Mary Louise came to Celeste’s door, all she cared about was appearances and not the truth. “Don’t lie about me; nothing about lying about Perry. And she sure didn’t have an answer to Celeste’s question about if Perry lied. All she cared about was herself.

I was so happy for Maddie and Ed and Abigail doing the vows was amazing.

Watching that scene really emphasized the fact that Reese Witherspoon does not age. She looked 25; makes me jealous.

Also, did anyone else think that Bonnie actually poisoned her mother with the with the wine or the food? She woke up and then after eating she had a setback and died. Very suspect.

Nathan and Ed are totally the same person. They’re both in love with women who don’t love them the same way. Maddie loves Ed from a basis of security and normalcy. Bonnie uses Nathan to escape from her past and uses him to try and live the ideal image of what she thinks marriage should be.

Fuck Gordon. He gets to keep those damn toys while Renata loses everything. I cheered when she smashed everything with that bat. Too bad she didn’t use it on his head. Men like Gordon are the reason why the trope bitches be crazy exists.

I knew the minute Bonnie started texting that they were going to go tell the truth finally. Hopefully that detective finally leaves them alone but DAMN if they all didn’t look fabulous marching into the police station. Their coat games were on point.

But, seriously, fuck that ending! Especially if there isn’t a third season like has been announced.

Finally, I’m super bugged by a few storylines they just left hanging.

-Corey! Cop? Informant? Reporter? Just a dude paying a traffic ticket?

-Abigail? College? Gap year? What?

-Joseph’s scorned wife with the new tits. Did Ed say no? Did Ed actually fuck her and that’s why he feels fine moving forward with Maddie? Did she make Joseph watch and be a cuck?

-The boys teacher. He seemed like he was going to play a role in the boys’ story. Then nothing. Same with the principal.

-Perry’s father second family. Why drop in that very specific story and then never address it again?

Overall I enjoyed the season but it was nowhere near the greatness of the first.

[FemmyV]

2 hours ago, SourK said:

Also, it's true that many abusers were abused themselves as children, but I'm not super keen on this thing where Celeste is removing any responsibility Perry has for his own behaviour and chucking it onto Mary Louise. That's an interesting dynamic, but not when it's tossed on at the last minute like that.

I think they did as well as they could with the time allotted. With Perry dead, Celeste gets to project pretty much anything she wants to on him (maybe that's the problem) but it seemed real enough to me. You can ask why a person is abusive, for years, and miss the answer that's right under your nose. Celeste must have caught on at some point, WE just weren't shown.

Anyway, I love that it wasn't being questioned by Celeste that brought Mary Louise down, but that ML did it to herself, in the end ("she participated").

1 hour ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Speaking of, it seemed incredibly cruel for Bonnie to tell Nathan that she never loved him. Breaking up with him is fair play but why be so brutally honest when it's just not necessary. I felt for Nathan in that scene even though he was portrayed to be such a douche bag.

Yeah, I did, at last, feel sorry for Nathan. But losing a parent will do interesting things to a person's priorities.

I loved seeing Renata get to go out swinging, but it was kind of odd that for once, no metal detector issues.

[ProudMary]

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

[rangell]

2 hours ago, Lola82 said:

I’m satisfied with the end, I feel like every character got closure. Loved seeing Celeste in lawyer mode. Overall I enjoyed the season...moreso than most viewers it seems like.

I agree. I am satisfied as well. 

I am not going to rip it apart, dissect every little detail that doesn’t match reality, I just enjoyed it at face value. 

And the music for the entire series, season 1 and 2 kicked ass!  

Peace out. ✌️

Edited July 22, 2019 by rangell

[Joimiaroxeu]

So Celeste just happened to see the horrific video of Perry beating her the night before she was going cross-examine ML. What an amazing coincidence! 😒

Lol, ML trying to pretend like she was having a panic attack after she saw where Celeste was going with her questioning.

What kind of clueless pig was Renata's husband? Goading her like that after everything that had happened? I was almost hoping he'd reveal that he had diamonds stashed in those train cars but no, he just had to go out like the selfish pig he is.

The Monterrey 5 finally decided to tell the police the truth. Why? Oh well, if we're lucky we'll never know.

[Razzberry]

2 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I also like her earlier line to ML about "Everything I did, I did for my family and my child. They have always come first...." (paraphrasing). There's still so much stigma in the society about women being powerful in their careers, that it seems automatic to assume that because they are in such positions of power, they are heavily lacking in their contributions and time for the family. Having a powerful career IS the contribution to the family, making sure the children have a good house to live and there's food on the table, making sure the children can go to good schools and hopefully a good future. I'm glad Renata spelled that out when ML was just going to shame her for Gordon banging the nanny because she was so busy. 

Not to mention how being a self-made powerful woman is such an amazing role model for her daughter.  But the shrieking Renata of the last few episodes was cartoonish and over-the-top. 

Overall I'm satisfied with the finale and enjoyed this season very much thanks to a great cast of actors.

Loved Willie Nelson and his daughter's cover of CCR's Have You Ever Seen the Rain?, but Melissa Etheridge's cover sounded so much like the original I didn't see the point.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Razzberry

[Cheezwiz]

3 hours ago, SourK said:

art of the problem abuse victims have in real life is that they generally can't prove what happened so definitively and it's a little disappointing to see the show build an escape hatch out of that issue.

Yeah that was a deus ex machina that was a little too convenient for the show, and not something that ever happens to real people in real life. But it was enjoyable seeing Nicole in lawyer mode.

Overall, I thought it was a satisfying conclusion - especially Renata with the baseball bat!

Those two actresses were my favourites this season, and I'll miss seeing them together. I know many were disappointed with this season, but despite many flaws it kept me watching. Kudos to all the actresses.

[bilgistic]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

lol Who knows! I think that one was real, she said "I love you".

No, she said, "I'm sorry."

[anonymiss]

They needed more episodes and to edit out all of Bonnie's mother. So their idea of giving us insight into Bonnie is make her have one-way conversations with her mother and her cryptic voodoo visions that amount to absolutely nothing?

Queen Nicole killed it in the courtroom as always--I could have watched the entire hour of just her. It ended abruptly and was obviously time-constrained.

Renata was allowed to show range this season, having been accepted into the group of liars and I was hopeful she wouldn't revert to the raving lunatic. That was SO lazy and predictable. She deserved better. Unless someone hasn't watched TV before, they would have sensed immediately that she was going to smash everything in that room. Yawn.

Edited July 22, 2019 by anonymiss

[tennisgurl]

I thought this was a pretty good ending for the show, and that we got a solid wrap up for every major character, more or less. Madeline and Ed are back on track,  Jane is healing enough to move into a new romantic relationship, Celeste gets her lawyer on and gets to keep her boys and kick her mother in law from Hell to the curb, Bonnie ends her dead marriage, and Renetta...we will get there. But the end is a pretty big cliff hanger that leaves me very "wait...hold on a sec" with what happens next. I guess Bonnie announced she was confessing and everyone else is going to support her? I hope that not everyone ends up being in serious legal trouble, or all those happy endings are facing some serious issues!

I admit I was worried that they would pull some last minute drama bullshit and give the twins to Mary Louis, so I am super happy that she got kicked out of the house, as she should. I cant ever really feel sympathy for Perry, but I can at least understand him more now with a mother like that. So mother of the year Mary Louis blamed little Perry for his brothers death, which happened because Mary Louis lost her temper, and she took her grief out on him? What a terrible person, and you can certainly see where Perry learned to victim blame and manipulate. It takes a very certain kind of person to see a video of their son beating up his wife and hear about how he raped someone, and say "Your lying, your participated, my son is the victim!" with total conviction. I cant imagine what she would do to the twins or how they would turn out if she got her talons into them.

Renetta was partially still the woman we knew last season, but was mostly some kind of deranged cartoon clown woman who existed to make reaction giffs on the internet. That leads me to...maybe this is just me, and I am being too sensitive, but I find it rather problematic that, on a show that had domestic abuse and its horrors as a major plot line, and also a scene where Renetta smacks her husband with a baseball bat and its this "yeah go girl, badass!" moment. Smashing his toys up because that guy is a major league pig and dickhead? Which he certainly is, but still. I can get behind that to an extent, but not actually getting physical with your significant other, even if they're a lying sack of crap and the marriage is clearly almost over. Not that its anywhere near the Celeste and Perry abuse, or that their marriage was ever abusive or that I am comparing Renetta to someone like Perry, but the cognitive dissonance of going from one scene of us all gasping in horror at Perry beating Celeste, and a whole season about the fall out from that and trying to teach the twins that violence isn't the answer and that being violent like their dad is wrong and will lead down a bad path, to what was I guess an empowering scene of Renatta giving her husband a pretty strong hit with a baseball bat during a fight just made me feel...wrong. "Violence is wrong and unless its a life or death situation its never how we should solve our problems, especially in relationships...unless your a woman and your husband is a cheating loser, in which case its awesome and you should hit him again!" 

That was a really good cover of Have You Ever Seen the Rain, I am really going to miss this shows soundtrack. I've found so much great old school music!

Edited July 22, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Corgi-ears]

Mary Louise is Taylor Swift. Didn't see that twist coming.

[Lily H]

What a huge disappointment. Celeste had a few good moments in the courtroom, but I was somehow hoping for more. And the part where the judge, who has already made her decision,  allows Mary Louise to stand up and start pontificating again was just stupid. I'm sorry we never got to see anyone tell ML to sit down and shut her piehole.

Speaking of ML, the mysterious death of Perry's brother they've been teasing us with all season turns out to be a mundane car accident because she was apparently distracted, which they show in a snippet so lightning-fast you could barely make out what happened.

I think we all knew what was going to happen with Renata's husband's toys the moment he told her he could keep and play with them even after they were sold.

The whole Bonnie story, boring as it was all along, fizzled out into nothing. She was clearly the weak link from the start.

[Vella]

So ultimately, there was no point to Corey. And there was no point to Gordon losing all the Klein money and screwing the nanny.  Whatever 'revelation' or 'growth' Jane and Renata experienced in their stories could have happened without those events, especially Corey. Corey was 100% pointless. 99% of what he did could have been done by Bonnie and maybe a bit of Celeste and Maddie. That would have given Bonnie/Jane a friendship that lasted more that 15 seconds and given Bonnie something that didn't isolate her so severely. The friendships took a real backseat this season.

And the notoriety of the Monterey 5? Where did that go? People stopped looking and caring awfully fast. They were more the Monterey 5 last season, before they even got the name!  The whole deal of Amabella having panic attacks? That fell off fast. Bonnie's brutally honest confession to Nathan might have meant more had we SEEN their relationship, seen Nathan's devotion to Bonnie and Skye, seen his love for Bonnie for longer than a few moments.

The courtroom scenes were ridiculous. And dull.  The judge letting Mary Louise drone ON while knowing she wasn't giving ML the kids? Wasted time. And it was rather galling that Renata, Maddie AND Jane all showed up to support Celeste but nobody went to the hospital to support Bonnie while her mother was DYING? Bonnie's story ultimately chickening out and limping along to the end.

So many half baked ideas, so many teases that led to nothing, so much wasted FILLER that fizzled out at the end. Talk about going out with a whimper.

[izabella]

Did Mary Louise actually show up at Celeste's and unlock the door with keys?  She would have just barged in if Celeste hadn't moved fast enough to block her.  Celeste, change the locks!

[ProudMary]

About an hour before I watched BLL, my son had asked me to join him in watching a YouTube video where an attorney was critiquing several movies and television shows on how they (mis)handled courtroom scenes. When Mary Louise stood up with her speech as the judge was about to announce her ruling, I said to my son, "That YT attorney would have a field day picking this apart. She'd NEVER be permitted to do that in a real courtroom."

The ending left the television audience hanging. I had flashbacks to "The Sopranos" finale. Thanks for that Sunday night memory, HBO.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Even though we witnessed a lot of Perry's abuse last season, seeing everyone's reactions when Celeste showed the video in court really brought back how horrifying it was.

I can't believe that after all that Mary Louise has put Celeste through, she had the nerve to try to use her key to get into Celeste's house. BITCH, PLEASE.

Mary Louise has been such a pain in the ass all season so I wanted to high five Celeste when she questioned her in court. Celeste did a great job (although I thought she would get a badgering the witness objection).

When the judge was about to make her decision and then Mary Louise asked if she could speak AGAIN, I just rolled my eyes. She just always has to have the last word. Seriously, STFU. You already had a chance to testify so just SHUT UP. It's not like Mary Louise said anything new in her umpteenth address to the judge. Mary Louise was the one wringing her hands and accusing Celeste of telling the boys that their father was an abuser and a rapist (which, to my knowledge, is not actually true because all season Celeste has bent over backwards to tell Max and Josh how wonderful Perry was), yet she had no problem announcing that their mom was a slutty drug user in front of the boys in court.

I hated that when Bonnie told Nathan she was going to be honest with him, he looked positively gleeful, like he'd won and was finally getting his way. It seemed really inappropriate considering how serious she looked, but that's Nathan for you. I'm glad she left his stupid ass. Hopefully she will find someone who makes her happy.

Ugh, I hated that Gordon got his friend to buy his trains and toys but he got to keep them. His smug attitude about how he needed something to play with now tht the nanny was gone was the last straw for me. Not only has he shown no remorse for all the shit he has put his family through but he doesn't even have the decency to be sorry or ashamed that he was fucking the nanny.

Awww, Ed and Maddie's vow renewal with just Abigail and Chloe was sweet. It's not a magic wand but hopefully it's a new start for them. It was a nice reminder to all of them to focus on their family.

[Blissfool]

I see you, Madeline. Prancing around in your wedding dress. Dancing to the wedding song your husband selected. Getting "caught" by said husband. Then, a couple of days later, your alienated husband suggests a vow renewal. Husband manipulation 101 😉

[Blakeston]

i really don't expect perfect legal accuracy from a David E. Kelley show, but come on.

Mary Louise was responsible for her child's death, and that never would have come up at all in this custody hearing if Celeste hadn't made a last-minute decision to question her on the stand?

Even if Celeste's lawyer is the worst piece-of-crap attorney in California, why on earth wouldn't Celeste have insisted on making an issue of it from the beginning?

[ferjy]

4 hours ago, bilgistic said:

No, she said, "I'm sorry."

Yes, you’re right! I was thinking of Bonnie who told her mother she loved her. 

[freebie]

11 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Even if Celeste's lawyer is the worst piece-of-crap attorney in California, why on earth wouldn't Celeste have insisted on making an issue of it from the beginning?

Right? It was all so last-minute and clearly for dramatic effect. Another symptom of the lazy writing that plagued this season. I do wonder about the other "surprise" line of questioning, when Celeste busted out her own visual aids. Didn't we know last season that the twins had taken video of one of the beatings? My memory is hazy, but I thought something happened that made Celeste realize one of her boys was responsible for attacking Amabella. And I feel like I saw that POV of Perry's attack on Celeste before. Am I crazy? 

Don't answer that! 

12 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

yet she had no problem announcing that their mom was a slutty drug user in front of the boys in court.

This, too. I fully expected Celeste to point this out, but nope. I really think ML's second pass at testifying is what ultimately dug her grave. Who knows what the judge was going to do before that little speech? Also, did the judge say the psychological reports on the kids were a "wash"? Is each side normally allowed to hire its own psychologist, so the subjects are interviewed twice? That seemed weird to me. 

Anyway, it's done. I do think it's important for Bonnie to come clean, so if that's what she's actually doing, great. Cannot believe the detective was a no-show in this episode, though. I'll chalk that up to the weird editing fiasco, but wow. Would an eighth episode have helped at all, I wonder?

Edited July 22, 2019 by freebie
Conflated two scenes into one.

[cardigirl]

Well, I still don't know why I"m supposed to care about any of these women.  Renata could be entertaining at times, but lord she's a lot of work. And I knew as soon as she opened the door to that "toy" room she was gonna smash things up.  Because she's always out of control and on the edge. 

If this is Emmy-stature work, um, well, not impressed.  Watched Reese krinkle her eyes through a serious conversation and I guess that passes for emotion.

I'm afraid Meryl may never want to do television work again.  Oh dear. 

I've read a couple of this author's novels and they always start well, but by the end the characters (women) in them just don't seem real to me.  Same with this show. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by cardigirl

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t understand why i seem to be in the minority of really liking this season and this finale.? Was it as good as the first season?   It would be nearly impossible to be.  Was it awful badly written and acted trash?  God no.

i loved  every minute of Renata and Celeste’s story this season.   If anyone needs another season it’s Renata.  I want to know what happens with her and her husband and I would love to see her get everything back she lost even if it takes time and hard work.   Celeste and Mary Louise was what good drama is about.  Because neither of them were wrong.  Celeste had been acting reckless but Mary Louise  has chosen to take the kids more to save her sons image then anything else.  

Edited July 24, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[txhorns79]

39 minutes ago, freebie said:

This, too. I fully expected Celeste to point this out, but then she went next-level, announcing Jane's rape right there in court with the boys hearing everything. Brutal.

Don't the boys already know?  I recall them going after the kid who was taunting Ziggy over the situation. 

[DrSpaceman]

The legal scene was the best part of it all, even if it was unrealistic.

The rest I just don't care about.  Though I also like Renata destroying her husband's stuff. 

The mom dying?  Don't care.  I don't think she did anything to kill her mom.  Both the strokes and the coma were just unrealistic though. 

If nothing else in the end, ML will get an answer to what really happened to Perry, so even though she lost the boys in court she will still get what she truly wanted from the beginning. 

Corey, as someone else mentioned, also pointless and don't care

Renewing wedding vows?  Cliché and again, don't care. 

So is it over now?  Not sure I will tune in for season 3 if they have one. 

[Dminches]

9 hours ago, peggy06 said:

I mostly enjoyed it. I didn't enjoy Celeste's takedown of Mary Louise like I had hoped. I felt too sorry for Mary Louise having lost her child that way. What a horrible burden to live with.

At some point during the trial I "realized" (I knew the facts but hadn't contemplated them) that Mary Louise has lost both her kids.  At that point I started to hate her much less.

[Chaos Theory]

HBO shows are always Emmy bait and HBO has the money to keep it in people’s memories.   I am not a big fan of HBO but I really loved this show and I hope it wins all the awards.

[Dminches]

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

Still working through my disappointment. We didn't even get a big Mary Louise meltdown in the end! If we were going to go full family court melodrama and leave behind all notions of realism, we deserved to see her really lose her shit. They couldn't seem to decide all season if they wanted Mary Louise to be a true villain or a sympathetic character and that indecisiveness really came through in the writing.

Rarely are people binary in the sense of being all good or all bad.  How can someone not feel sympathetic towards someone who has lost both her children?  Conversely, how can someone not hate someone trying to steal 2 young boys from their mother?  Both of those scenarios can co-exist.  

[txhorns79]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

But the end is a pretty big cliff hanger that leaves me very "wait...hold on a sec" with what happens next. I guess Bonnie announced she was confessing and everyone else is going to support her?

The others are in legal jeopardy with Bonnie.  Once Bonnie confesses the original story they all told was a lie, the police are going to want to speak to all of them. 

[Dminches]

7 hours ago, Bama said:

-Corey! Cop? Informant? Reporter? Just a dude paying a traffic ticket?

-Abigail? College? Gap year? What?

-Joseph’s scorned wife with the new tits. Did Ed say no? Did Ed actually fuck her and that’s why he feels fine moving forward with Maddie? Did she make Joseph watch and be a cuck?

-The boys teacher. He seemed like he was going to play a role in the boys’ story. Then nothing. Same with the principal.

-Perry’s father second family. Why drop in that very specific story and then never address it again?

Overall I enjoyed the season but it was nowhere near the greatness of the first.

I thought they made it clear that Corey was brought in for questioning and that's it.  Only some viewers thought it was more than that.

Ed did not screw her.  I didn't think that was unclear.

[freebie]

9 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Don't the boys already know?  I recall them going after the kid who was taunting Ziggy over the situation. 

Yes, the boys have heard a sanitized version of why they have a brother. Anyway, I was wrong about what was discussed in front of them in the court room, so they didn't actually hear a more adult discussion of Jane's rape. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by freebie
Correcting faulty memory.

[peggy06]

Bonnie's mother's plot was the catalyst for Bonnie confronting her own major issues that had plagued her adult life and caused her to push Perry, the start of the lie. As such, I think it's important. It wasn't especially showy, but I felt it was well done. Of course it's difficult to show someone's thoughts, hence the running scenes and flashbacks. Sometimes you don't need to spell it out.

I never thought Corey was anything but a nice guy who was interested in Jane. Why did he have to be anything else? I'm not sure how else they could have shown the deep trauma from the rape other than by having Jane trying to be with a man. I didn't need anything more from that particular plot.

Similarly, it was obvious what Bonnie was going to do at the police station (her line at the hospital about telling the truth). I don't need to see a scene where it happens. This served very well as a series ender but could also be a season ender if they choose. The only major loose end, for me, was that Mary Louise thought one of them killed Perry, and she let that go. I thought that was her whole reason for the custody hearing, to force that out into the open. But they went a different route in the court scenes. Of course this could be the starting point of a third season, but it would be a boring season to revisit all of the same plot points.

Edited July 22, 2019 by peggy06

[Haleth]

I'm not unhappy about this season.  If for nothing else it was worth watching for the incredible performances of Meryl and Nicole.  However if the ladies had just gone to the police station at the end of the first season this one would have been unnecessary.  I enjoyed the first season much more with the focus on all the mothers and kids and normal drama, with the dark storylines of rape and abuse building over the season to a final shocking moment.  This season started with a murder and deescalated to a more mundane courtroom custody battle.  It lacked the suspense of season 1 and as you all have said, a lot of it was fairly pointless.

I sort of cringed when Celeste repeated the exact same words about the twins that ML had said about Perry-- he was a good boy, she raised him to be a good man/ they were good boys, she was raising them to be good men.

Poor Ed.  He got Maddie to promise a new start and the first thing she does is reveal another big lie.  

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

That leads me to...maybe this is just me, and I am being too sensitive, but I find it rather problematic that, on a show that had domestic abuse and its horrors as a major plot line, and also a scene where Renetta smacks her husband with a baseball bat and its this "yeah go girl, badass!" moment.

Exactly.

[txhorns79]

14 minutes ago, freebie said:

There's a difference between hearing some elementary school bully throwing around words he probably doesn't understand and hearing your mom, who has previously been so careful not to disparage your dad, say what Celeste said in court. The boys might know, but they've certainly never heard their mother speak of the circumstances in quite that way before. 

I'm confused.  They weren't in court when Celeste brought up the rape.  They were only there for the decision.  Celeste did not discuss the rape at that time, if I remember right. 

Quote

That leads me to...maybe this is just me, and I am being too sensitive, but I find it rather problematic that, on a show that had domestic abuse and its horrors as a major plot line, and also a scene where Renetta smacks her husband with a baseball bat and its this "yeah go girl, badass!" moment.

My impression was that Renata accidentally hit Gordon with the bat during her rampage.  I didn't get the impression we were supposed to think she was intentionally trying to beat him. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by txhorns79

[freebie]

You're right. I was mixing up the two court room scenes. I guess I was just disappointed that Celeste didn't take ML to task for the disparaging remarks she made about Celeste in front of the boys. I get that's who ML is, but maybe try to show a little restraint at a custody hearing! 

[BusyOctober]

"I want to know" WTF I watched for 7 weeks. 

I feel like the writers wrote "Emmy reel" scenes for Meryl Streep & Laura Dern first, THEN half-assed it to craft the rest of the stories around them.  

The legal battle & courtroom proceedings were made up BS.  No WAY ML's issues didn't come up long before Celeste's Closing Argument Eve revelation.  And I have a hard time believing a FAMILY COURT judge would let 2 minor, very young children attend that shit show (just a couple of eleventy-million flaws against reality that irked me about the overwrought, unrealistic custody battle plot).

I don't get the point of Bonnie's mom.  She came in like a stealth shit stirrer and ends up dying silently? I guess we got a little bit of Bonnie's back story filled in but, still unsatisfying.  And, since no one cared enough to make us care about Nathan, bye dude!

Madeline & Ed's marriage is magically healed with some cool hipster throwback music & a hippy chic private beach wedding?

I can't even with Gordon and his inability to read the room.  Too bad that bat didn't do more damage.

We all are left to imagine what happens to the Monterey 5 after they walk in to the Police Station?  Beyond being guilty of delaying/impeding the investigation, I would imagine none of them are going to be charged with murder.  Maybe manslaughter or a lesser charge?  But Bonnie was defending a person getting beaten up. She was intervening to assist someone first, not deliberately trying to kill the aggressor.  And if anyone with a grain of sense in the aftermath of the "push" thought about it, or obtained legal counsel LAST SEASON, we wouldn't have had to limp through this extraneous second season. 

[chlban]

8 hours ago, ferjy said:

I  don't see many women being that cruel either. Not if the man loves them, and certainly not someone like Bonnie who seems a decent sort. I found that really bad writing.

Agree. I was there, still "loved" my husband, no longer in love, and there was no third party. It was very, very slow process and I would never have said I had never been in love with him, that just diminishes everything. No, that was not  realistic.

[RedInk]

I hated Mary Louise with all my being, but I think it's really problematic that she became the biggest big bad, worse than even Perry, a rapist and attempted murderer. I know there's an argument that they were both hated, it's not a zero sum game, etc., but I'm reading the opinion that P gets at least a little leniency for having a mother like that. That is misogynistic writing. Nothing excuses him. And I was uncomfortable with the cross examination about the accident because we are taking (liar) Perry's word...and his recollection as a 5yo. I just hate the "bad mother" blame game, even if the recipient is a cartoon villain. Please just let me hate Mary Louise in an uncomplicated manner, show! 

Edited July 22, 2019 by RedInk

[scrb]

51 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

The others are in legal jeopardy with Bonnie.  Once Bonnie confesses the original story they all told was a lie, the police are going to want to speak to all of them. 

Depends on whether the DA is politically ambitious, dreaming of a big trial with national or international media coverage.

This story would be huge for tabloid and mainstream media, about 5 upper middle class women having a pact to cover up the murder of a rich husband who was abusing his wife, who is one of the Monterey Five, while He also raped and impregnated another member.

Really a sensationalistic story which could make the lawyers and judges involved in the case famous.

But it is also a relatively small town and the politicians and other civic leaders may try to keep the case under the radar, just let it go.  Even doing that might bring accusations of protecting privilege.

[Mellowyellow]

I enjoyed that and found it extremely satisfying.

I am one of the rare species who enjoyed S2 more than S1. S1 while excellent was really heavy and taxing to watch in parts. I found S2, despite some plot holes and being a tad more sensational took less of a toll on me as a viewer.

Nicole was simply brilliant. From the very broken lost woman in S1, to the very messed up person in S2 to her take down of Mary Louise in this episode. She was brilliant. I found her portrayal of Celeste's development wonderful. In the beginning eps of S2 she was a hot mess and then as ML began to push her into a corner, Celeste (although still messy) started subtly growing a bit more of a spine.

LOVED that Renata got more to do in S2. I don't find her a cartoon character at all. I found her really believable. Her bravado and loudness aside, she's got a good heart and is "soft" imo which is why she kept Gordon around for so long until the blatant disrespect woke her up finally. To me that's really in character for someone with that personality. They can be tough but also completely soft in some ways. She's not manipulative, sly, passive aggressive in the ML way. She's very in your face.

Also really enjoyed ML. She was a sneaky, manipulative, passive aggressive woman who desperately wanted to live in the fake reality she made up but I don't think she was evil in the "Muhahahaha" way. She was just a very sad, unlikeable character who I could see going away quietly when her fake beliefs came crashing down. I believe that she genuinely thinks she loves Celeste and wants to help her (in her mind she probably wants to nab the boys while Celeste goes off and gets treatment and then shows up to hug then every so often). I really loved that Celeste sent the boys to hug her. Celeste didn't believe ML was black and white evil either and for her to see that after having been through so much herself really made me love the character (Celeste). 

I could understand why Bonnie told Nathan she never loved him. Bonnie was about to confess and set herself free. Why string Nathan (who loves her) along and have him wait for her and support her through the confession ordeal. I can very much see her as someone who would bluntly tell him just so he can move on.

Overall excellent show. Loved it.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Mellowyellow

[DrSpaceman]

My guess would be, after they confess, 4 of them would be charged with obstructing an investigation and probably get probation while Bonnie has to face some sort of trial or more likely a plea deal with a short sentence and long probation.  I doubt the city wants a trial and to pursue a harsh sentence for a person killing a rapist and serial wife abuser. 

Then there is the question of whether Celeste by being charged has violated any of her "stipulations" from the judge mentioned in the custody hearing.  I would hope she would consider that before the confession

As far as Renata hitting Gordon with the bat, I think we can distinguish between a one time incident that has been building in her for really years after all he has done vs. someone using physical and emotional abuse for a long period of time as a means of power and control over a spouse.  The same way Celeste pushing her child one time out of frustration is different from a pattern of child abuse that places the child at risk. 

[BeatrixK]

I thought the wrap up was as good as expected.

My favorite Renataism was 'Keep your eyes on your own fucking paper, Mary Louise!' 

I love that Meryl made me root for the downfall of a grieving mother -- and HATE her...even though she hadn't done anything outwardly 'sinister' -- just acting in the best interests of her grandchildren (supposedly)....but she was so subtle with the off-putting mannerisms and behavior that made ML such a monster.  Good lord that woman is unparalleled in talent.

[VagueDisclaimer]

1 hour ago, freebie said:

There's a difference between hearing some elementary school bully throwing around words he probably doesn't understand and hearing your mom, who has previously been so careful not to disparage your dad, say what Celeste said in court. The boys might know, but they've certainly never heard their mother speak of the circumstances in quite that way before. 

The boys weren’t there for that part, were they? They only came to the last day for the verdict.