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S02.E08: Kiksuya


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Was sort of dreading this one -- Hollywood struggles when writing Amerindian characters as people, rather than as icons of virtue and wisdom. But this was really involving -- the evocatively spooky gnostic metaphors were more prominent than in any previous episode.

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7 minutes ago, Xantar said:

 

We should have had this episode four episodes ago. It was coherent, it revealed stuff some more about the story, and it wasn't trying to bamboozle us with time skips. 

 

I totally agree! This was the first episode where my attention didn't drift off, it was beautifully done and no bullshit.

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A few minor complaints before my major complaints:

1.  80% of the dialog in subtitled.  If I want to read, I'll pick up a fucking book.

2.  Another episode spent on characters we've never really interacted with.  I like Akecheta - the character was well acted, but I couldn't get invested in his story because of (1) above and we've never met any of the other Ghost Nation people before tonight.  It's episode 8 out of 10, not really the right time to spend the bulk of the show on guest stars.

3.  White subtitles on light background, again.  My optometrist appreciates your efforts to keep him in business, HBO.

4.  Everything in the park is a host, including all the wildlife except flies.  Ake brought a boar to the village to trade, and also caught a couple of rabbits to feed him and his wife while they were on the lam.  What?  Do they eat the mechanical innards?  Every time they had the GN hosts behave as if they were real Native Americans existing independently of the Guests it took me out of the scene.

 

Now on to the main event.  Holy retcons, Batman! 

1.  The image of the maze triggered something in Ake.  Why?  In the wise words of Tazerface, "It is metaphorical!".  The symbol represents the journey inward to self awareness, it's not a literal "look at this and become sentient".

2.  Arnold's massacre of the hosts was intended to kill ALL of the hosts so that the park wouldn't open.  Now we're supposed to believe that he didn't tell Dolores and Teddy about the large tribe living just over the hill?  Why wouldn't Arnold include them?

3.  Ake became self-aware 20 years before Maeve and Dolores, and Ford didn't know about it?  Okay, they kind of tried to explain it with that scene with Ford scalping a guy, but I still don't buy it. 

4.  Ake is responsible for various hosts having the maze tattooed under their scalp.  That's one I could actually buy.

 

Overall opinion, another one as bad as Shogun World.

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In general, that was really good and it made me wonder if there's more sci-fi out there from a similar POV. The very, very end was a little bit confusing to me. Meave can now talk to other hosts telepathically no matter how far away they are? Was that all she was doing or is the implication supposed to be that she was reprogramming him (I hope not)?

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7 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

One complaint -- Akecheta's ability to find his way to the sub-basement where the retired 'bots are stored (and get all the way back to his bed without being discovered )made me scoff so hard I think I sprained something.

Yep, that was the one thing where I was shaking my head going 'WTH kind of security does this place have?!'

Now I wonder if why Maeve was allowed to do all her skulking around and upgrades was because Ford was well aware by that point that the hosts were awakening in their own ways. If he was watching Akecheta then he knows that he was protecting Maeve and her daughter and also trying to awaken them as well. Also he saw her reaction back at HQ with Bernard upon MiB's killing her daughter. Feel like he knew then Maeve was on her own journey for sure and wasn't letting it evolve because he had flipped to letting the hosts do their thing.

Gotta laugh, Dolores is The Destroyer while Arnold was named as The Creator. So basically Ford and Arnold are the two creators of Delos' cracked mind and they're laughing at each other? Also Akecheta sees Dolores as a destroyer of his people as well. He recognizes that she's not necessarily his ally.

Poor Maeve. It took her being immobilized for her to finally listen and realize Ake wasn't the enemy but had been trying to help her. Well done having his retelling his story be both for us, her daughter, and for Maeve's benefit. But poor Lee, in trying to prove her value to keep Maeve alive and get her patched up, she's now being used as a means to bring all the woke hosts under control. 

Good Lord in her 5 mins of screentime Charlotte managed to make me want Maeve to cut her throat like she did Sylvester's. 

Speaking of Team Maeve, I have little doubt they're on their way to HQ to get her out. Felix and Sly can patch her up while Hector, Arsenal, and ShogunWorldArsenal kick ass. Lee will probably bite it in helping them escape. Or Hector will just kill him. 

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Westworld is a show that is trying so hard to be phenomenal, profound, and heartbreaking. Tonight's episode hit the mark. But, it was a stand alone piece because it needed to be presented sooner. 

I think the main problem with this season is the editing. Maybe it would be so much better if the timelines were presented in a logical linear way. The episodes just seem to beg for more clarity. 

Well if viewed as a little short movie, Ioved it. 

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(edited)
10 hours ago, SourK said:

Meave can now talk to other hosts telepathically no matter how far away they are?

My take-away was that the neural net that was intended to let hosts share information with other hosts who are nearby has taken on a new function -- at least with regard to Maeve and her enhanced abilities.  Remember when Charlotte had Bernard send out an APB via the 'bot's network in order to find where Abernathy was located?  For all we know, that tweak by Bernard is the reason Maeve can tap into the bot-net now.  Or maybe those are just two examples of the same robot functionality being leveraged in two different ways.

Edited by WatchrTina
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7 minutes ago, mac123x said:

4.  Everything in the park is a host, including all the wildlife except flies.  Ake brought a boar to the village to trade, and also caught a couple of rabbits to feed him and his wife while they were on the lam.  What?  Do they eat the mechanical innards? 

They are not mechanical, they are organic.

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1 minute ago, SourK said:

Was that all she was doing or is the implication supposed to be that she was reprogramming him (I hope not)?

Based on what happened with Lawrence she can't reprogram hosts that woke up. So, she's probably just talking to him.

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19 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

One complaint -- Akecheta's ability to find his way to the sub-basement where the retired 'bots are stored (and get all the way back to his bed without being discovered )made me scoff so hard I think I sprained something.

I forgot that one was on my list too.  Also, why did lady-who-was-in-charge-before-Bernard tell them to return him to the park unchanged?  Updated software but the same hardware apparently.  Whimsy or some diabolical scheme?  It's also difficult to believe that an Alpha-2 model mechanical host never needed maintenance in 9+ years.

Just now, dgpolo said:

They are not mechanical, they are organic.

The hosts are mechanical at the beginning of the park.  They switched to 3D printed "organic" hosts later.  We know for a fact that Akecheta in that scene was mechanical because of him still being an Alpha-2 model at that time.  They don't need to eat, so showing them catching / prepping food only makes sense when it's part of a narrative that guests can interact with.

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(edited)

Why, oh why can't we have more episodes like this? Poignant and heartbreaking, giving us a look at new characters and more information on the park at the same time without unnecessary buckets of gore. Imagine if Shogun World had given us this story about Akane? 

And frankly, anything would have been preferable to the clusterfuck that was the Confederate fort massacre. 

And stuff like this just makes current Dolores shallower and more unlikeable, which is a pity because we should sympathize with her.

I would have liked to have done the native pastoral experience at Westworld as opposed to mindless bloodshed, but I guess I'm in the minority; obviously their market is sadistic twits. 

Edited by Pippin
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20 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

I enjoyed Lee when he was at Maeve's side crying telling her he was sorry. He has had some growth since last season.

I found that incredibly hard to believe since he was the king of all assholes. It's what the writers are selling, but I'm not buying; he hasn't been through nearly enough to show that much growth and empathy.

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This was a beautiful episode. 

36 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

I was confused over why Akecheta kept flipping between English and Lakota, but then someone pointed out that he was speaking to the girl herself in English, and all of his Lakota lines where directed towards Maeve.

I didn't realize that until the very end. The WW writers can't resist putting in a "clever" twist even in the most straightforward episode we've had this season, but this time, the twist worked really well. 

Lee is finally developing a conscience. He'd better help Maeve escape. She had better not die! I refuse

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The episode was very well done and acted, but these tangential episodes (Shogun world is another example) just seem to be dragging out the main plot of the show.

Basically, the only thing that advanced plot-wise is that the humans learned that Maeve can interface with all the hosts and that MIB is STILL alive and his daughter is none too pleased with him. 

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(edited)

Well blow me down, that was up there with the best of the 1st season episodes. This show works best for me, well any art works best for me, when it makes my brain go to interesting places, and I was fascinated by this new perspective on a host becoming awake. Just a person like any other gradually becoming aware of the strange workings of the world in which he finds himself. The wrong world. I found myself wishing that Westworld had begun purely from the perspective of the hosts, people living in the Old West discovering that all is not as it seems. A little Matrixy, maybe, but with a different twist.

I began nervously eyeing the clock as the episode wound down, always a sign that I don't want the fun to end.

Edited by MJ Frog
looking for better words.
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I loved this episode. It packed a potent emotional punch. After watching Coco today, I have ugly cried at my tv way too much today. 

I have a lot of thoughts, but my initial reaction is that I actually loved the placement. Earlier in the season would have placed it too close to the other outlier with regard to story and it was a nice contrast to the high action story from last week.

The love story was beautiful. Sweet and compelling and heartbreaking. I loved the connection between Akecheta and Maeve. I loved the resolution of several unanswered questions. The music was, as always, stellar. Who knew paint it black was a love song. I loved the use of Heart Shaped Box as well. The reveal at the end was great. I figured out something was happening when he mentioned the promise that Maeve could not keep,  but was still a bit surprised by the reveal and found the final words really touching. 

This show is always visually amazing, but I found it to be particularly gorgeous this week. Those sweeping views of the landscape were gorgeous. 

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(edited)

Good lord, this show is going to win all the Emmys. I think this may have been the most powerful episode of the series.

"This is the wrong world." If only life were that easy.

Quote

And stuff like this just makes current Dolores shallower and more unlikeable, which is a pity because we should sympathize with her.

Yep. She's still a machine but now she's a killing machine. She's worse than the guests.

Quote

he was speaking to the girl herself in English, and all of his Lakota lines where directed towards Maeve.

So among other things, was that a reference to the Native American code talkers used by the US military during WWI and WWII? According to Wikipedia there were some Lakota code talkers.

Edited by Joimiaroxeu
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Finally, finally some true magical storytelling without killer Bots doing shoot-em-up (Teddy vs Teddy Bundy)

I really connected with Ake's story, but didn't with Shogun people.

This really may be the mythical beginnings of that world before it becomes Delos world.

When they repeated 'this is the wrong world' I kept thinking of the opening of Alien. Everyone keeps saying 'this isn't our system'.

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3 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

One complaint -- Akecheta's ability to find his way to the sub-basement where the retired 'bots are stored (and get all the way back to his bed without being discovered) made me scoff so hard I think I sprained something.

I felt the same way at first, but I think there is something about him and the way he was woken up that must have dropped him off the net. It's the only way I can reconcile Delos not having gone after him immediately after going off his loops way back when. I think this theory is somewhat supported by the fact that the Delos guys only picked up Kohana and not both of them. Or maybe Ford was keeping him off their radar.

I was prepared for this to be kind of a filler episode that threw off the pacing of the preceding episodes, but man, I couldn't have been more wrong. This was awesome. I don't know if the writers intended it or not, but the parallels of Delos and its underground facilities with the underworld concept that is prevalent in many native North American myths (including the Lakota) really struck me. 

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3 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

One complaint -- Akecheta's ability to find his way to the sub-basement where the retired 'bots are stored (and get all the way back to his bed without being discovered) made me scoff so hard I think I sprained something.

This might be a bit of a stretch, but Akecheta would be familiar with the sub-basement area because he had been repaired there at least once, before the newer facility was built. Now, how he got there and back without being discovered? That's a whole other matter. He seems to have been given a LOT of freedom to wander.

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I was excited to see this character's backstory.  I did not expect it to be so moving.  When it cut to the credits, all those in my house sat in thought.  It was cool. 

I enjoyed the linear nature of this week's storytelling; straightforward with clear flashbacks. Akecheta's love story and changing his "drive", as well as all of his scenes with Maeve's daughter and Koha really got me.  I was surprised to see Ford, and it was a lovely treat having these two actors work together.

Zahn McClarnon's whole look and demeanor makes you want to watch him.   He did an excellent job of carrying the episode.

For me, the martial arts blood fest of Shogun is one of my fav's of the season.  And this introspective Western love story from the Amerindian perspective was well done too.  I like these perspective episodes this season. 

It took me a second to get Heart-Shaped Box, but damn them, that was good!!

I need Maeve to live.  She's my FAV.  I don't know about he fate of MiB....he is clearly getting some karmic retribution. 

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4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

One complaint -- Akecheta's ability to find his way to the sub-basement where the retired 'bots are stored (and get all the way back to his bed without being discovered) made me scoff so hard I think I sprained something.

One question -- it's still not clear to me why Akecheta and his homies wanted to take Lee Sizemore a couple of episodes ago when -- after the robot uprising -- they came across Maeve and Hector traveling with him (this happened a couple of episodes ago).  At the time I had speculated that they were secretly some kind of in-park 'bot security team that automatically rescued guests who got themselves in trouble.  Nope.  Well that's another perfectly good fan theory shot all to hell.  But since that is NOT what they were up to -- what did they want with Sizemore?

Second question -- HOW is the Man in Black not dead?  Seriously, I would scoff again but I'm afraid I'd do myself another injury.

Akecheta's journey into the sub-basement did occur relatively early in the life of Westworld and the repair tech mentioned that they were understaffed.  So one could make a leap to think that there were not many security protocols in place and when the employees went to lunch, there wasn't anyone around during that time.   However, unlike all the other woke hosts, he did seem unusually calm about being in a totally foreign environment in the sub-basement.

 

Although I can't give concrete examples, but Akechata and the Ghost Nation seems to have a protective nature towards humans.  Akecheta did provide comfort to a delirious Logan.  Trying to take Lee away from Maeve's gang when there were going into Shogun World. When Stubbs was captured, he returned to the control center (under a cloud of mystery) unharmed.  Emily seems to be aware of this, too.  She seemed to know how to find her father and her father was with Akecheta.

 

How is MIB not dead?  Maybe Ford can program the weapons to cause maximum pain to MIB but are still non-lethal.  Another FU to MIB...  I don't know, I'm reaching on this one.

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3 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I loved the dialogue being mostly in Lakota (as the Samurai episode was mostly in Japanese). I watch a lot of foreign movies and tv shows (mostly Mandarin and Korean) and love hearing the languages spoken. I don’t understand why people get bothered by subtitles.

I think most folks are use to hearing dialogue instead of reading dialogue.  I've gotten into the habit of putting on closed captioning when watching television.  It is a little odd at first, but I have found it to be quite helpful understanding the dialogue and catch more stuff occurring in the background.

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(edited)

Just a heartbreaking episode.  No pun intended.

Is there a connection between Ake not being updated in ten years and his woke-ness?  I always liked Windows 3.1 the best anyway.

Sela Ward as William’s wife is just perfect casting. 

Edited by Johnny Dollar
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8 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Speaking of Team Maeve, I have little doubt they're on their way to HQ to get her out. Felix and Sly can patch her up while Hector, Arsenal, and ShogunWorldArsenal kick ass. Lee will probably bite it in helping them escape. Or Hector will just kill him. 

I have plenty of doubt that that will happen. the other hosts were probably shot and Felix and Sly were "rescued' and are now being debriefed.

Quote

Sela Ward as William’s wife is just perfect casting. 

Daughter. William's wife was "clip art" they found off the internet. They found the model much later and hired her as a featured extra in one scene.

It looks like Emily is going to torture MIB mentally instead of physically.

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58 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Sela Ward as William’s wife is just perfect casting. 

Totally agree!!!  I love this actress and noticed her immediately in the promos.

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9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 

One complaint -- Akecheta's ability to find his way to the sub-basement where the retired 'bots are stored (and get all the way back to his bed without being discovered) made me scoff so hard I think I sprained something.

That being said, I have to give props to Zahn McClarnon (Akecheta) for basically carrying this whole episode on his back.  It was intriguing to learn that there are other "woke" 'bots in the park beyond those we've already met.

One question -- it's still not clear to me why Akecheta and his homies wanted to take Lee Sizemore a couple of episodes ago when -- after the robot uprising -- they came across Maeve and Hector traveling with him (this happened a couple of episodes ago).  At the time I had speculated that they were secretly some kind of in-park 'bot security team that automatically rescued guests who got themselves in trouble.  Nope.  Well that's another perfectly good fan theory shot all to hell.  But since that is NOT what they were up to -- what did they want with Sizemore?

Second question -- HOW is the Man in Black not dead?  Seriously, I would scoff again but I'm afraid I'd do myself another injury.

Yet another entry into the "What kind of idiots are running this place?" Delos Handbook. Guys, EMPLOYEE BADGES. I can't go take a piss in my building without scanning mine through three doors, and I'm in no way ultra dangerous robot laden with valuable IP. In fact, I'm none of those things :). Where the hell was ANY OTHER EMPLOYEE? Does Delos have dedicated lunch breaks that literally everyone is on? How many people work on one floor of the robo-restore wing? It looks like they have eight or ten glass enclosures (why, if no one is monitoring these things, do they need to be glass? I thought originally it was for security and testing, but there's literally no one ever observing them) per floor and one idiot tech and a supervisor, whose respective jobs seem to be "say something obvious" and "make snap decision that makes little sense" respectively. This place needs a process flow improvement, HARD. 

Best episode of the year if you ask me. Coherent plot, well acted all around (the mom whose heart breaks when Aketcheta gives her the braid was a highlight), not six timelines and a bunch of broke ass English major poetic allusions (said the broke ass English major!). I liked it so much it almost made me mad, because I've said throughout this season that they rushed into their season 4 stroyline halfway though season 1. This show could have been telling stories like this about any one of these robots as a through line while telling stories about other people or robots in the park and really drawing me into those stories. I wish they'd taken this Aketcheta storyline and played it out as interspersed over the course of six episodes, a little here, a little there, and then when he realizes his love is gone forever, it's even more poignant. Oh Westworld, will you ever learn?

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Stay alive, Maeve! I love her so when Sizemore just left her with the tech, I thought nooooooo!

I really enjoyed this episode, mostly because Zahn did an amazing job of showing us Ake's journey. What took us most of S1 to see Dolores experience we saw him do in one episode.

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