Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[yogi2014L]

If they still allow Jill to attend and have any input in prenatal care or delivery after what she did to herself/Sam...there is no hope. Truly. Someone would die in labor and they would still use Jill.

I really truly hope Kendra, Lauren (?), Jinger  avoid this homebirth trend the idioit Duggar girls have going like the plague. hopefully their mothers/Jeremy will intervene since Mechelle is too wacked out to give a shit 

We all were worried about Joy and it seems like it was for good reason. Poor thing. Hopefully this traumatized Austin enough where he will demand hospital birth for the next one. 

[Normades]

11 hours ago, doodlebug said:

If a midwife did a vaginal exam and was able to tell she was 6 cm, it should’ve been reasonably easy for that same midwife to diagnose the baby as breech. It seems to me that these midwives don’t learn the sorts of critical thinking skills needed to perform a good assessment of a laboring mother.  Joy suffered unecessarily, IMO; a good midwife would’ve been assessing the baby’s size and position all along and realized the kid was both breech and huge and got her to the hospital much sooner.

Thank you for saying this because I remember many years ago when I was expecting that the doctor (yes I'm a horrible science-believing heathen) would tell me during my weekly visits at the end that I was x cm and the baby was head down and in position.  They told me my baby's position for a solid month before he was born.  I would think a midwife should be able to determine something so important.

9 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

What's really scary is to think of is that without modern hospitals/Western medicine, there's a strong probability all 3 would have died. Jessa, for sure, with her hemorrhaging would have.

Exactly!!  I had the same issue as Jessa and nearly died, so even if you can do the natural birth it doesn't mean there won't be other complications.  I get so tired of these people saying modern science has made women think birth is unnatural and belongs in a hospital or that women have been doing this since the beginning of time and we're still here.  The daughter on Sister Wives said something similar during her long, excruciating home birth.  Yes, birth is natural and women have been doing it throughout history ---- and dying often!!  Seriously, birthing is dangerous!!  Things are better and good outcomes happen more frequently because of  hospitals, doctors and even well trained midwives, but make no mistake this isn't some simple procedure!  So many things can go wrong and you're putting two lives at risk.  I know many women come through with little medical intervention, but that isn't always the case.  I can also see the attraction of a home birth, but to me, the risk is not worth it.  Seriously, 30 minutes from a hospital during a severe emergency is a LONG way!!  Had I been 30 minutes away, I would probably not be here right now.  Their attitude seems to reinforce the idea that women are unimportant and expendable.  It's so sad and I feel so sorry for Joy.  I hope someone in that family learned something from all of this!! (I'm looking at you, Jeremy!! Don't allow your wife to risk her life and that of your unborn child! This goes for Joe, too.)  They should be so thankful for those doctors and nurses who saved their lives, but I doubt they give it a thought.  Birthing is not a contest!!

And keep Jill away from these pregnant women for heaven's sake!!  Makes me wonder though, was she volunteering her time??

[3 is enough]

Jill is a menace.  She should not be allowed to come within 500 feet of any pregnant woman.  

And Joy obviously was not getting regular prenatal exams from a real medical professional.  Surely during the last month when weekly internal exams are performed a skilled doctor/midwife would have been able to tell the baby was breech.  I am beyond disgusted.

Michelle always got real medical care during her pregnancies. Why don't her daughters deserve the same?

Oh yeah, because they and their husbands are so poorly educated they cannot get decent paying jobs and afford medical insurance, that's why...

I hope to God Jeremy was sufficiently incensed to keep Jill FAR FAR away from Jinger.  Hopefully she is getting real prenatal care, and when it is time to deliver Jeremy tells a little white lie and says the baby came too fast to call Jill and the camera crew.  Thank God they are in Laredo- distance will help. 

[louannems]

About JB and his wasteful Keurig cups.  Imagine all those endless cups being used by that huge house full of lounging adults.  Plus Jessa and Ben who practically live at TTH!

That family should just install a commercial Bunn coffee system.

In JB's defense, he DID reuse his Styrofoam cup!

And with as many dishwashers in that house, not using real mugs is a sin.  Coffee tastes awful in styofoam anyway.

[bigskygirl]

My mother had to be transported by ambulance to Great Falls which is about 90 miles away when something went terribly wrong with her last pregnancy. The doctor in East Helena knew his stuff and told the ambulance service he had a woman and unborn baby in serious trouble who needs to be transported out of town immediately when there was a call of a worker at the smelter in East Helena with a badly broken leg at the same time. He told the ambulance personnel to get my mother or all heck would break loose. Sadly my little brother was still born, and my mother almost died. Great Falls has one of the best prenatal care units in the country, and all of this happened in the late 1960's before all the modern medical care we have today.

In the case of the husbands not being too bright about getting their wives and unborn child the best medical care, I think insurance does play a part of it, but not all of it. The Duggars seem to think Jesus will come in and save the day. They have someone like Jill with her special medical bag to deliver the baby. One of the daughters or daughters-in-law could die during childbirth, and I do not think a tragedy like this would wake any of them up. Look at Michelle after Jubilee. She was still convinced she would be able to have baby number #20. She loves to tell her own children she could have died giving birth to them. It is like some weird honor system with them. Look at Anna's picture the other day. I gave birth to half the Duggar grandchildren, and I have the only two granddaughters. Ain't I special!

[DkNNy79]

Wow, so Joy had an emergency C-section.  So, did they mess with us with the timeline of when they released the news and pictures?  Because it seemed like she was discharged from the hospital only a couple days after delivery.  That along with the way she was sitting cross legged in the hospital holding the baby made me convinced she had a vaginal birth.

I also had emergency C-section on a Wednesday morning and I was discharged from the hospital on Sunday afternoon.  There was no way I would've been able to sit cross legged after the surgery.  Granted I was 18 years older than Joy when I had my first baby, so maybe that played a part in it.

Edited March 13, 2018 by DkNNy79

[beckie]

I've never had kids or trained to become a nurse or midwife, but it seems to me, that knowing which direction a baby is, would be one of the first things learned. More and more, I'm thinking the only requirement of Jill passing was putting her name on the test. 

 

I'm glad Joy and Gideon are OK.

[Celia Rubenstein]

Wait, did someone say Joy had a midwife present as well as Jill?

Does that mean that even with two (supposed) midwives present, between the two of them ... NEITHER of them was able to determine the baby was breech until Joy had labored for 15-20 hours? 

That is outrageous. Inexcusable. Frightening. 

This family's (extremely dubious) luck is gonna run out one of these days.  One of those daughters or daughters-in-law or babies is gonna end up in the morgue if they don't wise up. Then we'll all be treated to a Very Special Episode featuring a goddamed funeral. 

[Portia]

Yes, skilled midwives know how to assess the  position of the baby before birth. Twice my niece's midwife was able to determine that her unborn baby was breech. She recommend activities (something in the swimming pool, I think!) that actually helped coax one of the babies into the head-down position before her birth. The second baby remained breech and was delivered butt-first by the midwife in a home setting. The midwife did, however, insist that the birth take place in her own home, since it is five minutes from a hospital. I still wasn't thrilled about my niece's decision to deliver breech at home, but what do I know? I'm just an old woman who was born breech with a dislocated hip. Still, thankfully, all went well for mom and baby.

I really can't believe that this family has had yet another c-section. Those are some sucky odds.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Portia
because it's breech, not breach

[Mollie]

24 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Wait, did someone say Joy had a midwife present as well as Jill?

Does that mean that even with two (supposed) midwives present, between the two of them ... NEITHER of them was able to determine the baby was breech until Joy had labored for 15-20 hours? 

That is outrageous. Inexcusable. Frightening. 

This family's (extremely dubious) luck is gonna run out one of these days.  One of those daughters or daughters-in-law or babies is gonna end up in the morgue if they don't wise up. Then we'll all be treated to a Very Special Episode featuring a goddamed funeral. 

The only good thing about Joy's botched homebirth is that she cannot have another homebirth in the future with a midwife present, and that includes sister Jill.  Under Arkansas law, it is illegal for a midwife to assist at a homebirth if the mother has previously had a C-section.  I hope that will be enough to convince Joy to have subsequent births in a hospital.  But, if she foolishly tries a homebirth again and Jill is present, I vow to personally report Jill to the authorities and have whatever license Jill has revoked.

[Luvmy300zx]

I can’t believe they use such poor midwives. I used one for DS2. She suspected at a check up that he was transverse, so she did an ultrasound immediately. This was in 1980. With a nurse they performed a maneuver right there in the office to turn him the right way. It was painful but he stayed put. That was almost 40 years ago yet today Jill and her associate can’t figure out a full term baby isn’t in the correct position or head engaged to be born? They are a tragedy waiting to happen.

[Normades]

53 minutes ago, beckie said:

More and more, I'm thinking the only requirement of Jill passing was putting her name on the test. 

Wait, do you actually believe Jill was able to correctly put her name on a test???

6 minutes ago, Mollie said:

The only good thing about Joy's botched homebirth is that she cannot have another homebirth in the future with a midwife present, and that includes sister Jill.  Under Arkansas law, it is illegal for a midwife to assist at a homebirth if the mother has previously had a C-section.  I hope that will be enough to convince Joy to have subsequent births in a hospital.  But, if she foolishly tries a homebirth again and Jill is present, I vow to personally report Jill to the authorities and have whatever license Jill has revoked.

Is that true?  Didn't Jill try to have a home birth after a c-section with Sam?  I'm with you, though.  I definitely hope Joy and all others coming after her get real, certified medical care and go to a hospital.  Sorry, I'm old now and I don't advocate home births.  I think it's an unnecessary risk.  We're lucky to have good facilities.  Let's use them!! 

[doodlebug]

25 minutes ago, Mollie said:

The only good thing about Joy's botched homebirth is that she cannot have another homebirth in the future with a midwife present, and that includes sister Jill.  Under Arkansas law, it is illegal for a midwife to assist at a homebirth if the mother has previously had a C-section.  I hope that will be enough to convince Joy to have subsequent births in a hospital.  But, if she foolishly tries a homebirth again and Jill is present, I vow to personally report Jill to the authorities and have whatever license Jill has revoked.

Jill has no license, she never has.  Therefore, she attends her sister's deliveries as a family member/support person.  Since I doubt she ever intends to get a license, let alone ever work as a midwife; it doesn't matter if she's there because she has no official standing as a practitioner.  Anyone can give birth at home with anyone or no one in attendance.

 

16 minutes ago, Normades said:

Wait, do you actually believe Jill was able to correctly put her name on a test???

Is that true?  Didn't Jill try to have a home birth after a c-section with Sam?  I'm with you, though.  I definitely hope Joy and all others coming after her get real, certified medical care and go to a hospital.  Sorry, I'm old now and I don't advocate home births.  I think it's an unnecessary risk.  We're lucky to have good facilities.  Let's use them!! 

Yes, Jill stayed home in an attempt to have a vaginal birth with Sam.  Since we've been given very few of the details, we presume that Sam's 2 week NICU stay was due, at least in part, to Jill's poor choices surrounding his birth including her decision to stay home in labor for about a day and a half prior to going to the hospital for a cesarean.  Derick said she was in labor 40 hours, as I recall.

20 minutes ago, Luvmy300zx said:

I can’t believe they use such poor midwives. I used one for DS2. She suspected at a check up that he was transverse, so she did an ultrasound immediately. This was in 1980. With a nurse they performed a maneuver right there in the office to turn him the right way. It was painful but he stayed put. That was almost 40 years ago yet today Jill and her associate can’t figure out a full term baby isn’t in the correct position or head engaged to be born? They are a tragedy waiting to happen.

Had Joy been getting prenatal care from a capable practitioner, she probably would've had an ultrasound to assess the size of the baby a few weeks before she was due as it seemed pretty obvious to anyone with eyes that that kid was probably much larger than average.  Obviously, an ultrasound to assess fetal weight would've revealed that he was also breech.  One would hope that even a midwife who will deliver breech babies at home (terrible idea, IMO) would draw the line at trying to deliver a 10 lb kid breech at home, especially with a first time mom. She would also probably insist on testing the mom for gestational diabetes, which I'm willing to bet Joy never did.  I'm not talking about Jill, of course, I said capable.

Despite Jill's insistence that Izzy turned 'transverse breech' (whatever that is) while she was in labor, it is highly unlikely that he wasn't breech all along as was Gideon.  Very large babies aren't able to turn spontaneously late in the pregnancy, let alone in labor; especially in first time mothers who have tight abs compared to vets.

Edited March 13, 2018 by doodlebug

[NotFundie]

I'll admit up front that I'm suspicious of pretty much everything that the Duggars say.  Just because they give us information, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's true.

I'm not at all sure that Gideon was transverse.  That is definitely something that any midwife would recognize.  No one would have allowed her to labor for 20 (or how ever many) hours if that were true.   It's possible that the heart rate started going down and that's what alerted them to finally move her to the hospital.  Maybe her water finally broke and it was stained with meconium.  Who knows?  I think they didn't want us to realize that, once again, they'd gambled on everything going okay and had been stupid.   I'm glad she and the baby are safe and well.  I just don't buy what they're selling.

[Natalie68]

18 hours ago, Mollie said:

Of the Duggar daughters, we have one successful homebirth (Jessa with Henry Wilberforce) and four failed homebirths that ended in hospitalization.  Conclusion:  Duggar daughters have an 80% chance of having a failed homebirthing experience.  Do you think they will learn something from this?  I don't.  Because it keeps happening!

 

I imagine there will be a lot of hand wringing, how could this happen, thoughts and prayers when something bad happens because based on Duggar Grands Entrances so far, it hasn't gone easily.  The evidence so far presented suggests to ME, no one with a lick of sense and ability is watching out for these women and babies.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Natalie68

[3 is enough]

21 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Very large babies aren't able to turn spontaneously late in the pregnancy, let alone in labor; especially in first time mothers who have tight abs compared to vets.

Thank you, doodlebug, for this confirmation.  I suspected this was the case.

[Farmfam]

When I was pregnant with my daughter I could tell what position she was in. I would feel her kick at my rib age and I could tell Down at my pelvis there was a large circular object (the head). I didn't need a doctor to confirm, although they did, repeatedly at the end. - I had a scheduled c-section for other complications. 

[Natalie68]

17 hours ago, louannems said:

I watched the two TLC TO GO webisodes.  In Joy's kitchen, prepping meals, Michelle definitely hogged the camera.  And next to Austin's mother's words, Michelle was very scripted and modulated.  Jana also made food, but she never said a word and to me, seemed sad.

Jenni was delighted at being the first to hear the gender over the phone.  JB drank endless cups of Keurig coffee while waiting for the baby.  Jackson delighted in catching and playing with the blue confetti from John David's gender bomb.  Jackson still looks and acts eight.

Joy was tearful, exhausted and defeated as she was wheeled into surgery.

Also, Ben was there along JB's working sons, assembled for prayer.

Don't babies settle into head down, engaged into the pelvis, or else breech or transverse well before birth?  Why did they make Joy go through a long, painful labor breech???

All that I could see when I read this was Kristin Wiig with the tiny hands trying to catch bubbles (SNL skit).   That boy is almost 14.  Joshua was 14 when he 1st started courting the sin in the camp gal.  Is something wrong with Jackson?  I say that not snarking at all.  He just seems so stunted.  He could be COURTING in a few years.  

[Primrose]

Hi..i am ne here...since i am from Europe I can‘t watch the birth episodes from Giddy. But i am a certfied midwife. In my country that requieres a Bachelordegrees..so I studied for 4yrs. Now I am on my masters. There‘s no way a trained midwife would let e first time mother try a homebirth if the baby was breech...they would even recommend a primary c–section with no labouring at all, if they saw the baby was huge.. 

[Natalie68]

16 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

I go with “ill-advised” or “ignorant.” But I’m bitchy like that.

Scootch over...

[Mollie]

57 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Jill has no license, she never has. 

Jill claims to be a Certified Professional Midwife (CPM), also known as a Lay Midwife in Arkansas. See information on these links:

https://www.ama-assn.org/sites/default/files/media-browser/specialty group/arc/direct-entry-midwife-state-chart-practice-information-2016.pdf

https://www.inquisitr.com/2451680/jill-duggar-midwife-certificate-called-a-counterfeit-by-doctor/

However, I do not see her name listed on the current list of licensed Lay Midwifes.  (Note that the Duggar family's favorite midwife and family friend Debora Query is still listed with an active license.

https://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/images/uploads/pdf/LLM_Listing_updated_11.7.17.pdf

[Natalie68]

13 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

What's really scary is to think of is that without modern hospitals/Western medicine, there's a strong probability all 3 would have died. Jessa, for sure, with her hemorrhaging would have. An actual competent midwife may have been able to catch and turn Joy's breech earlier and change things, but that's still a sign that the way their community is training midwives is insufficient (and there's no midwife or doctor who can guarantee a change of a breech baby, so it's impossible to know). I forget exactly what Jill's problem was, but she needed a hospital intervention so it seems like odds aren't in her favor.

I don't believe god gives people messages about faith through childbearing and delivery. But if god did, it seems to me that god is telling them that either their behavior is not really pious or that there is no connection between piety and childbearing (and Anna's nightmare marriage already demonstrates that purity is no guarantee of perfect, wondrous marriage either).

This:  Jill made the final decision to nix home birth after realizing that her baby was in distress. "I went to the bathroom and I noticed some meconium staining on my pad, and usually that is a sign of fetal distress in the baby," she explained. "It was more mild so it was like, 'okay, he's not doing too well but it's not an emergency at this point.'"

I am not a mother to human beings but the "he's not doing too well but its not an emergency at this point' makes me want to slap the teeth right out of her head as well as Dickweed because someone needed to be using their head in that situation if Jill wasn't.  

[satrunrose]

58 minutes ago, NotFundie said:

I'll admit up front that I'm suspicious of pretty much everything that the Duggars say.  Just because they give us information, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's true.

I'm not at all sure that Gideon was transverse.  That is definitely something that any midwife would recognize.  No one would have allowed her to labor for 20 (or how ever many) hours if that were true.   It's possible that the heart rate started going down and that's what alerted them to finally move her to the hospital.  Maybe her water finally broke and it was stained with meconium.  Who knows?  I think they didn't want us to realize that, once again, they'd gambled on everything going okay and had been stupid.   I'm glad she and the baby are safe and well.  I just don't buy what they're selling.

My first reaction is that they're telling the truth because they would be getting a lot more sympathy if something spontaneously went wrong like a dropping heat rate or meconium instead of something that any decent midwife should have realized before labour even started (breech baby). That being said, this is the Duggars and they do have a habit of telling lies that are way more damning and revealing than the truth (see "this happens in most families"). 

[silverspoons]

I feel bad for Joy. Joy really saw Jill as her "mom". How is young Joy suppose to question her Jill Mom's education and training? I also remember Joy taking care of Israel at night so Jill could sleep the first few weeks. Joy should have been in school at the time but she was staying up with a newborn all night so her "mom" could sleep. Then Joy suddenly finished home school and said she just wanted to take care of the littles. I knew she would be married quickly. I think life would have turned out much different for Joy if she was on Jinger's buddy team. Joy had so much life and spunk until 12/13. 

As for the birth, I agree that Jill should have known about the breech. I had a C-section planned for other reasons but during the end my was transverse. I had to see a urologist for a kidney problem and he and his staff without ultrasound knew the position, all the OB staff knew again just by feeling no equipment. . I could tell the position. I knew where the head was poking me for the last few weeks and the feet were kicking. 

I wonder about Austin and his family. Did none of them question the birth plan? I know in laws don't want to disagree but even in laws with similiar belief systems can have differences. It seems like these fundies avoid conflict and hold in feelings. It is one thing for Derick's mom to disagree about getting paid for the TLC show but another thing to have Austin's family speak up about their grandchild's safety. Austin only has one sibling, I can't imagine the mom didn't want more but for some reason was not able to have more. You would think Austin's mom would want a safe delivery of her grandson, or at the least try to avoid a c-section so Joy would have the max number of babies. 

[lascuba]

14 hours ago, tabloidlover said:

My apologies!   I posted this news in the Counting On and Duggard threads -- I should have checked here first!

I am convinced that Jill will continue to "pretend midwife" at family births until something goes horribly wrong (as in near fatal).   She has learned nothing from her own botched births.   She's too stupid to realize how ignorant she is.

And if/when that happens, they'll say that she wasn't the midwife attending her sister(-in-law), she was just there as support. These people are masters at deflecting responsibility.

ETA:  Jill didn't even know about her own breech and swears up and down that almost 10lb Israel flipped 70 hours after her water broke. She's a tragedy waiting to happen.

Edited March 13, 2018 by lascuba

[graefin]

1 hour ago, Natalie68 said:

All that I could see when I read this was Kristin Wiig with the tiny hands trying to catch bubbles (SNL skit).   That boy is almost 14.  Joshua was 14 when he 1st started courting the sin in the camp gal.  Is something wrong with Jackson?  I say that not snarking at all.  He just seems so stunted.  He could be COURTING in a few years.  

It's interesting to me that both Jackson and Josie are Jana's buddies, and they both seem behind in their development. Granted, Josie was a preemie, but with the right care, she could be more caught up than she appears to be.

Meanwhile, Johanna, Jinger's buddy, seems to me to be particularly well-adjusted. Jordyn (on Jessa's team), seems OK too. And then of course there's poor Jenni, raised by Jill, the most depressed kid I ever saw . . .

[Natalie68]

Just now, graefin said:

It's interesting to me that both Jackson and Josie are Jana's buddies, and they both seem behind in their development. Granted, Josie was a preemie, but with the right care, she could be more caught up than she appears to be.

Meanwhile, Johanna, Jinger's buddy, seems to me to be particularly well-adjusted. Jordyn (on Jessa's team), seems OK too. And then of course there's poor Jenni, raised by Jill, the most depressed kid I ever saw . . .

As I was perusing the pics on that site I came upon Jackson's and thought it could be Josie with a Richie Cunningham haircut.  Doppelgangers.  Interesting about the development or lack thereof with some of these kids and their wranglers.  

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Primrose said:

Hi..i am ne here...since i am from Europe I can‘t watch the birth episodes from Giddy. But i am a certfied midwife. In my country that requieres a Bachelordegrees..so I studied for 4yrs. Now I am on my masters. There‘s no way a trained midwife would let e first time mother try a homebirth if the baby was breech...they would even recommend a primary c–section with no labouring at all, if they saw the baby was huge.. 

There are a couple of different kinds of midwives in the US.  The most common, and best trained are Nurse midwives, CNM's.  This requires a Bachelor's degree in nursing before even applying to become a midwife.  Many CNM schools favor applicants who've not only finished nursing school but have worked as a labor and delivery or postpartum nurse.  One of the schools near me requires two years working in some sort of maternity setting before even applying.  Midwifery programs are usually two years and award Master's degrees.  Graduates of this program are eligible to sit for the CNM exam.  State licenses to practice are entirely separate and having the appropriate certification is a requirement. With a state license, a CNM can get privileges to deliver in a hospital, see patients there, etc.

The other type of midwife, also known as a direct entry or lay midwife, is not legal in every state.  Their training varies widely based on where they received it and usually lasts no more than a couple years past high school, unlike the 6 years a CNM does.  There are a lot of lay midwives who are virtually self taught, they do online courses and maybe follow another lay midwife around for a bit and then take an exam that is a lot less rigorous than the CNM test.  Probably the most common designation/testing system is the CPM or certified professional midwife. This is what Jill did.  One of the midwives who did much of Jill's training lost her license for some very questionable medical judgments that lead to serious complications for mother's and babies.  

The CPM organization is run by lay midwives who make up the testing, design the curricula, etc.  Lay midwives tend to not necessarily bring the usual scientific scrutiny to their practice.  While CNM's often participate and publish clinical research in respected medical journals, CPM's tend to have disdain for the scientific method and prefer to use methods that have been passed along through the generations or do things 'because that's the way I've always done it'.  A lot of what they teach their students is not based on any sort of science or research.  CPM's cannot get hospital privileges or write prescriptions in states where they can be licensed.

Edited March 13, 2018 by doodlebug

[lascuba]

7 minutes ago, graefin said:

It's interesting to me that both Jackson and Josie are Jana's buddies, and they both seem behind in their development. Granted, Josie was a preemie, but with the right care, she could be more caught up than she appears to be.

Meanwhile, Johanna, Jinger's buddy, seems to me to be particularly well-adjusted. Jordyn (on Jessa's team), seems OK too. And then of course there's poor Jenni, raised by Jill, the most depressed kid I ever saw . . .

I don't want to read too much into this because kids just have their own personalities, but this is the internet so I'm totally going to read too much into it...

I think it's telling that the two kids who seem ok in that equation are the ones raised by the two sisters who didn't try to mother their buddies. Jinger and Jessa took care of their buddies' physical needs and that's it. They weren't there to raise them emotionally because they apparently have an innate sense of proper boundaries. Jill was the Duggar overachiever who had to be the best fundie daughter at everything, so she took the mom part of sister-mom literally (and burned herself out so she's a disaster with her own children). Who the hell knows with Jana, but considering she's the jack-of-all-trades in that house it's possible she does everything for her buddies out of habit and convenience, which might explain Jackson's immaturity.

[Heathen]

39 minutes ago, silverspoons said:

Austin only has one sibling, I can't imagine the mom didn't want more but for some reason was not able to have more. You would think Austin's mom would want a safe delivery of her grandson, or at the least try to avoid a c-section so Joy would have the max number of babies. 

Fundie does not equal GotHardite/Quiverful. I know plenty of fundies who decided x number of kids was right for them, for y reason. It's entirely possible the elder Forsyths decided two kids was right for their family, and they are not interested in getting the maximum number of grandchildren out of Joy. 

[Absolom]

Josie was supposed to be Joy Anna's buddy until Ma and Pa realized that Josie's needs were far greater than they had thought and Joy Anna wasn't up to the task. 

[louannems]

31 minutes ago, graefin said:

It's interesting to me that both Jackson and Josie are Jana's buddies, and they both seem behind in their development. Granted, Josie was a preemie, but with the right care, she could be more caught up than she appears to be.

Meanwhile, Johanna, Jinger's buddy, seems to me to be particularly well-adjusted. Jordyn (on Jessa's team), seems OK too. And then of course there's poor Jenni, raised by Jill, the most depressed kid I ever saw . . .

Josie and Jackson just may be the most stunted because Jana herself is emotionally stunted. It was after the first set of twins were born that Michelle came down hard on the blanket training.

In 19 Kids and Co, Jana usually did her TH's paired with Jill.  While Jill was vivacious and so on board with everything Duggar, Jana appeared depressed and very minimal in her statements without revealing anything Jana.

Jana is very robotic and and had drank copious amounts of kook-aid.

[Heathen]

37 minutes ago, graefin said:

It's interesting to me that both Jackson and Josie are Jana's buddies, and they both seem behind in their development. Granted, Josie was a preemie, but with the right professional care, she could be more caught up than she appears to be.

Meanwhile, Johanna, Jinger's buddy, seems to me to be particularly well-adjusted. Jordyn (on Jessa's team), seems OK too. And then of course there's poor Jenni, raised by Jill, the most depressed kid I ever saw . . .

I fixed it for you. A half-educated sister-mom isn't qualified or equipped to deal with the long-term needs of a micro preemie. 

[Normades]

30 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

There are a couple of different kinds of midwives in the US.  The most common, and best trained are Nurse midwives, CNM's.  This requires a Bachelor's degree in nursing before even applying to become a midwife.  Many CNM schools favor applicants who've not only finished nursing school but have worked as a labor and delivery or postpartum nurse.  One of the schools near me requires two years working in some sort of maternity setting before even applying.  Midwifery programs are usually two years and award Master's degrees.  Graduates of this program are eligible to sit for the CNM exam.  State licenses to practice are entirely separate and having the appropriate certification is a requirement. With a state license, a CNM can get privileges to deliver in a hospital, see patients there, etc.

I had a CNM with my second child. I was able to move around and give birth in a position that worked best for me, plus the CNM stayed with me toward the end of my labor, which doctors didn't do (not sure if that's changed in over 20 years).  It was the best of both worlds -- I had the flexibility of a midwife and used the birthing suite at a hospital.  For me, things went south very fast after the birth and I required surgery and transfusions.  I'm thankful  I was at that hospital and for the wonderful care I received because I doubt I would have made it otherwise.  If you do research, you can get good care and have a voice in your birth plan.  I wish these idiots would actually use the brains they were given instead of thinking they are just speshul snowflakes and nothing could go wrong because Jesus!!  I really worry that they will continue down this path of ignorance and reality will bite them in a big way.

[3 is enough]

After this latest Duggar home birthing disaster, I keep hearing John Oliver in my head saying: "Fuck you, Duggars, FUCK YOU!"

[humbleopinion]

Anecdotal research shows that kids raised by depressed sister-mothers tend to be depressed sister-mothers themselves...so Jenni didn't have much of a chance to be happy...a lifetime of exaggerated raised eyebrow pictures for her... like Jilly's stupid selfies...

[birkenstock]

Jackson was supposed to be Jinger's buddy.  Jana took her place, I'm guessing, because he was the first one born on TV and it looked better for her to be his buddy than 11 year old Jinger. 

I think it's hard to tell which of the littles are well-adjusted (or any of the Duggar kids).  They've been raised in such abnormal circumstances on camera and under the care of teenagers.  Recently, there was debate over whether Jordyn was the ultimate Lost Girl after she recoiled from Michelle's touch during her birthday party.  The four oldest girls did the best they could having to deal with JB and Michelle as well as having cameras in their faces all the time.  

[humbleopinion]

The younger boys after Joe are all squirrely...the crew and TLC production  have been more of a family to them than their emotionally distant and unavailable parents.

Josiah, the twin boys and so on down... think they are media savvy with clever and cutesy answers in their THs...but they come off as uneducated oafs and doofuses...

Siah is the fugliest after Puffer Joshly...poor Lauren...

[graefin]

10 minutes ago, birkenstock said:

I think it's hard to tell which of the littles are well-adjusted (or any of the Duggar kids).  They've been raised in such abnormal circumstances on camera and under the care of teenagers.  Recently, there was debate over whether Jordyn was the ultimate Lost Girl after she recoiled from Michelle's touch during her birthday party.  The four oldest girls did the best they could having to deal with JB and Michelle as well as having cameras in their faces all the time.  

Well, to be fair, I consider myself well-adjusted and I would recoil from Michelle's touch as well.

[birkenstock]

10 minutes ago, graefin said:

Well, to be fair, I consider myself well-adjusted and I would recoil from Michelle's touch as well.

Ha! I think that Jordyn is a smart and caring girl who was neglected by Jim Bob and Michelle because they wanted to travel the country promoting themselves.  Josie being a medically fragile infant/toddler made it so she was further neglected by them.  Michelle laughed at Jordyn because she got her head stuck in the banister and constantly told her to find a sister-mom for snacks and attention.  I don't blame any of the kids for rejecting Michelle's faux attempts at mothering.

On topic: I hope Joy emulates Jessa's more hands on approach to parenting than Michelle's example.   

Edited March 13, 2018 by birkenstock

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Ya'll....I have absolutely zero medical training, but I have given birth twice (in hospitals, once with a CNM & once with an OB). I was the last of my hetero females in my friend group to have kids, so I heard a lot of birthing stories in the decade before I birthed my own kids.

Look, I think even I could probably assess whether or not a baby was breach in a woman towards the end of a pregnancy by feeling around based on how the CNM & OBs examined me & my own pregnancies.  I may have to get an assist from Dr. Google to be more certain, but I feel that I'd be 99% more likely to be accurate about the position of a near-term baby than Jill, who has allegedly had (obviously poor & non-scientific) midwife training and who has "assisted" at several births.  

Being able to assess the position of the baby seems like it would be like lesson number one in home-birthing babies.  Maybe the Duggar sisters could at least Google what could possibly be going on while the currently-in-labor-sister agonizes in labor pain for tens of hours and see they need to go to the hospital if they're going to keep doing this crazy stuff. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[humbleopinion]

 

Chelle is the wire mother but without the food.

The sister mothers are the preferable terry cloth covered.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

7 hours ago, Normades said:

Exactly!!  I had the same issue as Jessa and nearly died, so even if you can do the natural birth it doesn't mean there won't be other complications.  I get so tired of these people saying modern science has made women think birth is unnatural and belongs in a hospital or that women have been doing this since the beginning of time and we're still here.  The daughter on Sister Wives said something similar during her long, excruciating home birth.  Yes, birth is natural and women have been doing it throughout history ---- and dying often!!  Seriously, birthing is dangerous!! 

Exactly! Yes, women labored and gave birth without doctors/hospitals for centuries, but a LOT of them died. Yes, women in many parts of the world still do it without doctors/hospitals and plenty of them die!  But women in the past & in underdeveloped countries generally aren't having babies the size of those born in the US & other many developed countries.   
 

Quote

 

On average, babies born at 37 weeks or more weighed 57 grams (two ounces) more than their counterparts 18 years earlier.

Researchers have found the proportion of babies born larger than average increased by 18 per cent for boys and 21 per cent for girls between 1990 and 2005. 

From https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-health/are-bigger-babies-better/

 

Choosing not to get proper prenatal care/trained practitioners for the birth just seems like a really stupid idea if 1) you look like you're probably having a large baby and 2) your sisters have all had pretty big babies.  

These people are stupid. I don't even blame Joy.  She's basically an uneducated kid who probably thinks (or thought) Jill is almost-a-doctor.   JimBob & Michelle know better. They've had the majority of their babies in hospitals/with real medical professionals. 

[xwordfanatik]

1 hour ago, humbleopinion said:

 

 

Chelle is the wire mother but without the food.

The sister mothers are the preferable terry cloth covered.

I learned about the wire mother + food vs the cloth mother + no food, in the early 70's.  Too bad these fundies don't get high school or junior college level classes, to help them navigate real life situations they will probably encounter.  And their fans think they are just the living end?  Can't wrap my head around that, at all.

[Marigold]

Joy could've been discharged quickly. I had a few C-sections and was discharged the minute the doctor said I was fine.  I had the scheduled c-section(s) on a friday and was home on Monday afternoon.  I don't like hospitals and my husband could help me more than having to press the button for the nurse, who was already over busy, and took a while to come.  Trying to breastfed a baby post c-section requires help and sadly, nurses are given too many patients. 

Joy certainly has help at home so she probably left as soon as she was cleared.  Unless there was a medical need, why not? 

[BitterApple]

I'm rolling my eyes at the preview for next week's Counting On episode where Joy announces her pregnancy to "surprised" family members. Homegirl looked like she was six months pregnant with twins at twelve weeks. I doubt it was a shock to anyone.

Another botched homebirth? Quelle surprise. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by BitterApple

[momma2seven]

Wonder if he was a Frank breech? Bottom down, feet and head up. I can see how a less trained person...or someone simply not watching for breech could mistake that for a normal presentation. My own 8 pound breech baby was not discovered to be breech until her hips delivered instead of her head (water broke, immediately followed by baby is coming out NOW! So no time to reevaluate the delivery method). There was a big lump down low, obvious shape of her back right up the middle of my belly, another big lump just under my ribs and feet kicking at the top towards my back....all the bumps and kicks felt like they were in all the right places so no one was checking. Not to defend Jill or whomever was in charge but...it happens.

[Quilt Fairy]

I always felt so sad for the poor baby monkeys who had to choose between a wire 'mom' and a terry-cloth 'mom'.  Imagine how maladjusted they must have been as adults!

[Snow Fairy]

So, do you think there is a chance that they will be inteligent enough to wait at least a year or two before baby no2? Due to c section and all that?

 

And another question, I'm not from USA. Can really Joy and Austin homeschool their kids? Even if they have no idea what they're doing and what they're teaching them?

[Snow Fairy]

So, do you think there is a chance that they will be inteligent enough to wait at least a year or two before baby no2? Due to c section and all that?

 

And another question, I'm not from USA. Can really Joy and Austin homeschool their kids? Even if they have no idea what they're doing and what they're teaching them?