S39.E09: Two for the Price of One

[Rachel RSL]

1 hour ago, huskerj12 said:

I am so weirded out that people didn't think Aaron was black!? What in the world?? Haha

It wasn't obvious to a lot of people. I personally thought he was Hispanic or possibly of Italian descent.  D'oh!

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Missy seems to have decided that all other black people get credit and blame for what she does and that she gets credit and blame for whatever all other black people do.  

I don't think that's what she was saying at all.  I'm not a Missy fan but I can certainly understand why representation is important to people who come from a minority background. 

[tiredofwork]

Quote

IMO, if you think it matters whether 2 black players, 2 white players 2 Asian players, 2 Latino players or some combination of different ethnic groups won immunity, you are at least a little racist. 

If you think it through it is quite illogical and offensive.

Does 2 black players winning mean "Wow, all black people are awesome!"

If 2 white players won would it mean, "Damn, all black people suck!"?  

Of course not, to both questions.  

Missy's glory in winning immunity and her shame in her despicable behavior are her own.   Neither reflect in any way on black people in general   

I am white and I take no pride in white players doing well or shame in them doing poorly.  It has nothing to do with me.  My complexion didn't help them win, or make them lose.   It doesn't make me look good when they win or bad when they lose.  

Please..., I see from your posts in particular that Missy hit you in a certain spot to feel some kind of way, but the world while a good fantasy is not neutral in race, color, culture and orientation..  Would you feel the same way if say 2 gay persons exclaimed the same thing?  I know I would say, hey, that is cool.  Same with 2 Asian, 2 hispanics, 2 sightless whatever.  

2 caucasions in that scenario is the norm and 2 others not caucasion are not.

[bamlou]

1 hour ago, huskerj12 said:

3 hours ago, himela said:

After watching this last episode I am convinced that Jeff and the producers thought that the story would end after Dan apologized in the last tribal council. They didn't expect that people would get so annoyed, sad, irritated, angry and all other feelings about this story with Dan. They thought they had handled it well and the apology was the end to it.

Agreed, and I think it also showed that the situation on the island still seemed less clear than it was, and how it was shown in the actual episode. I really don't think people understood the severity of the situation at all without the benefit of seeing the footage. Once Missy realized Kellee was still planning to vote her out after their tearful convo, I think everyone other than Kellee and Janet assumed things were being exaggerated or used for effect within the strategy of the game. And judging by how everyone including Janet just moved on this week, I still don't think it hit home how crazy the situation was until they saw the actual episode on tv.

I was just about to say something similar. Even if there was discussion after the last tribal about the Dan situation, my guess is there weren't any lasting consequences from it among the remaining players, and possibly little footage of them even reacting to it or the larger implications of Dan's behaviour. To them, the producers, and Jeff, everything necessary had been discussed at tribal which put it to bed and now gave them permission to move on with the game.

They clearly had no clue of the scope of the situation or how it would appear to viewers at home, judging by so many of the players' oblivious social media posts promoting last week's episodes with so much excitement. And this week's Ponderosa ep with Aaron and Missy really highlights to me how oblivious they were; I really got the sense that they excused all of their behaviour as 'just part of the game' and didn't give much thought to how their words, their actions, or the seriousness of the Dan situation could have real-world implications - to them it was merely gameplay that they had now left behind (which made all the smiles and joking when they arrived at Ponderosa so jarring to see).

And since it seems that the show was clueless in seeing anything wrong with Missy and Elizabeth using Kellee's discomfort with Dan as a strategy tool (since we didn't see Jeff question it at last tribal, nor does it appear that producers considered intervening or having a talk with Missy/Elizabeth about it being off limits), they have no narrative reason to follow-up on this as part of Elizabeth's story. They may see it now given the blowback from viewers, but I don't think the show necessarily has intentions to paint Elizabeth as the next villain to get their comeuppance. 

Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope she goes soon. It was at least satisfying to see her dawning realization at tribal - the benefit of her constant exaggerated facial expressions is that she gave 3-4 screenshot-worthy reactions of saddened disbelief that I, sheepishly admit, really enjoyed and savoured with the pause button.

[Kenzie]

1 hour ago, huskerj12 said:

I am so weirded out that people didn't think Aaron was black!? What in the world?? Haha

It never occurred to me that Aaron was black or bi-racial until it was mentioned here. 

[3jt]

I love Elaine. I know that her "I don't know what's going on" thing is driving some people nuts, but I always take it as a "no comment". What the hell can Jeff dig out of her if all she says is I don't know what's going on, when we know full well that she does. People assume that people with her accent aren't very smart- so why not play into that. 

I also like Janet, and Dean. I just don't find them annoying. Karishma though bugs the shit out of me. The whole moping around, poor misunderstood me b.s. makes me viscerally angry. I wanted to jump thru the t.v. last night and show her what bulling is. Being talked down to is not bullying. Was Missy being a jerk? 100%. I think that Missy felt like she was calling the shots, and that Karishma should just be grateful that they weren't targeting her..... sooooo she should just do as she was told. Missy also didn't want Karishma to blow up the plan to vote off Tommy. Wrong approach on Missy's part.

I really don't mind this season- I wasn't going to watch because of the stupid ass theme, but am finding it okay. Other than Karishma there isn't anyone that I really just can't stand. I do believe that TPTB should have pulled Dan. I do think that that Missy and Elizabeth using the situation as game play was pretty low. It also seems to me that Kellee was really the only one that Dan REALLY bothered. As it was presented the other women just thought he was creepy, but weren't overly offended by him. 

I have felt that this season feels like a lot of let's talk about outside issues- PSA style instead of a game of survivor.....   

[amazingracefan]

56 minutes ago, sara416 said:

Of course it doesn't mean that all black/white people are good/bad/whatever. But MIssy said it well when she said representation matters. As white people, we have spent our entire lives seeing people in the media, fictional characters or not, played in a positive AND negative light. But for a long time, African Americans were not even in the media, and even now have a tendency to be shown in a negative or derogatory way. Of course, there are examples of positive people of color on television. But anecdotal evidence is not statistically sound proof of anything. It matters when people see people that look like them in the media, especially young people. 

*I'm just a white person, recognizing my own priviliege in this situation. I'm sure there are others that could explain it better*

It would be good if people saw themselves as more than just a skin color though.  I understand some people may feel there can be cultural differences among some people, and that could be misunderstood more if placed within the context of the majority culture.  But saying that all people of some particular shade are somehow the same still doesn't make that much sense to me.

And what you are putting forward sounds like anecdotal evidence in itself, you just feel there haven't been enough representations or positive representations but some may disagree.  Maybe those who see themselves in a group which is in a minority will be more likely to feel under represented.

Cultural differences interest me more than skin color.  And that could be a reason why you often see Afro-Americans aligning together on Survivor, or it could be that if they see themselves a minority they will group together sometimes as well.  I think that Aaron and Missy made it very clear to everyone that they were an alliance, but maybe they didn't make as good connections outside of that.

[seacliffsal]

Survivor has done, maybe, one TC a season (although there have been seasons where it hasn't occurred) in which both a male and female win immunity.  I really don't know the statistics related to the two who have won in terms of ethnicity and race.  I do know that it's one male and one female.  Does anyone know the statistics from the seasons related to when they have done the two immunity necklaces thing?  I'm not interested enough to look it up, but I do know it's not a "common" practice in terms of how many times they have done it.

I think Missy is used to having her way.  The way she couldn't believe that Karishma wanted to just walk away  was hilarious to me.

I found it really clever how the two temporary tribes were separated so that there would not be a "whole" group strategy in who to vote out.  I thought that was really smart and interesting in how the scrambling then happened.  I also liked that those who assumed that they knew who would be voted out were actually the ones voted out.

I would support Rob and Sandra giving us the play by play every season.  I like their snark and their insights.

[Bryce Lynch]

46 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

Please..., I see from your posts in particular that Missy hit you in a certain spot to feel some kind of way, but the world while a good fantasy is not neutral in race, color, culture and orientation..  Would you feel the same way if say 2 gay persons exclaimed the same thing?  I know I would say, hey, that is cool.  Same with 2 Asian, 2 hispanics, 2 sightless whatever.  

2 caucasions in that scenario is the norm and 2 others not caucasion are not.

I don't think it is good to make a deal out of 2 anythings winning immunity. 

Sightless might be an exception, if the challenge was one where lack of eyesight was a disadvantage for them to overcome. 

Making a big deal of 2 black, Asian, gay, or whatever players winning would seem to assume that those groups are somehow inferior to the "mighty straight Caucasians" and therefore had an extra obstacle to overcome.   I find this insulting to the minority groups.   

Honestly, if Probst mentioned something like that in passing, I wouldn't think it was a huge problem.  But, Missy calling him out for not classifying people by the color of their skin was objectionable to me.  It was like "How dare you treat everyone the same!" YMMV.  

Edited November 21, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, Special K said:

I'm shocked none of them suspected Karishma of idol-hunting.  Isn't that usually what people do (or what others assume they do), when they disappear for a long time?

Another example of the people in power, underestimating players they believe are inferior.

This. For all of them to just assume there was no way Karishma would have looked for/found an idol is just hilarious. I hope maybe they all did kind of assume she might have an idol and it just didn't air because otherwise they're all deeply ignorant.

6 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I get why Janet has made up with Dan, given that she now doesn't know what's true and what's not, but I hate it so much. She shouldn't be having to try to get back into his good graces because he shouldn't even be there.

It literally makes me sick.

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

I was hoping someone besides me remembered Karishma’s earlier moaning and bitching about how her parents forced her into a loveless arranged marriage - guess she changed her mind, huh?  

I mean, yea. That was literally the point she made; that being around people who don't like or trust her made her appreciate that her husband actually does like and trust her.

28 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

It would be good if people saw themselves as more than just a skin color though.

I feel like that's a lot easier for white people to think than non-white people.

[Eolivet]

Thought it was interesting exactly how production divided the tribes. They put the sexual harasser on a tribe with two other men (Tommy was an island on the other tribe) and away from Missy and Elizabeth (could it be that production saw what he did to them, regardless of how they supposedly felt about it?)

It’s decisions like that which make it more apparent than ever to me that production knew they had a problem and instead of actively doing something themselves, they chose simply to minimize their risk. Put the harasser with more men and away from the youngest (?) women. Total CYA move.

[HurricaneVal]

I know that the edit didn't show any discussion of aftermath of the last Tribal Council, and the whole inappropriate touching, sexual harassment, and shady claims by Missy and Elizabeth seems to have been dropped, but I did think it was telling that the men and women were clearly sleeping in separate quarters during the overnight rainstorm.  Prior to that, it seemed that there was always a big dogpile in the big shelter.  Not that night.  I wonder if those sleeping arrangements were discussed and agreed to, or just naturally occurred.  

It did look, however, that the men were snugger in the small shelter than the women were in the big shelter.  I wonder if Dan was feely that night!

[GaT]

I didn't think of this so much until today, but Missy used sexual assault last week for game play, & this week she tried using race/diversity as game play. This girl is such a bitch, I hope social media keeps dogging her for forever. I can't even imagine what she would have tried using for game play next, religion? gender identity? handicaps? I don't think she cares what boundaries she crosses as long as she wins.

[After7Only]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

This is not about "privilege".   People who obsess about "race" and base their own reputations, self esteem, sense of accomplishment on it choose to do so.

Missy seems to have decided that all other black people get credit and blame for what she does and that she gets credit and blame for whatever all other black people do.  

IMO, this type of collective racial credit and blame is the basis of all racism, and is incredibly destructive.  

If you take the entirety of her speech into consideration.  She started talking about how women and minorities are statistically targeted early in the game of Survivor.  Which is factual.  Based on that fact, she was proud to still be there and that 2 minorities had won immunity back to back.   Good for her.  She's not obsessing on race, this is the first time she even mentioned race from what I can remember.   

Karisma also pointed out early that she is the first person of Indian descent to play the game and how that was a sense of pride for her to represent her heritage.   I don't recall hearing much backlash on here about that......

[sara416]

1 hour ago, amazingracefan said:

And what you are putting forward sounds like anecdotal evidence in itself, you just feel there haven't been enough representations or positive representations but some may disagree.  Maybe those who see themselves in a group which is in a minority will be more likely to feel under represented.

I could find data on the under or misrepresentation of POC on television, if you would like. I know it's there, but I don't have research or numbers in my head. I'll come back after work to provide it if you would like. There's more than anectdotal evidence out there. 

[sara416]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

This is not about "privilege".   People who obsess about "race" and base their own reputations, self esteem, sense of accomplishment on it choose to do so.

Missy seems to have decided that all other black people get credit and blame for what she does and that she gets credit and blame for whatever all other black people do.  

IMO, this type of collective racial credit and blame is the basis of all racism, and is incredibly destructive.  

No reasonable person looks at Missy and Aaron and attribute their positive or negative attributes to black people at large.   Missy is the one promoting this.   She is choosing to be judged collectively as a member of a "race", it is not being imposed on her.  To the extent any idiots do impose that on her, she ought to be opposing it, not embracing the irrational, unfair and destructive way of thinking.   

It is about privilege. It's about the privilige that you and I and other white people have had of seeing ourselves in the media being able to wear many hats and do many things. POC have not had access to this same thing. 

Missy did not attribute her skill or attributes to her race. She pointed out that she and Aaron won idols AND they are people of color. Which it important for people to see that it is possible for POC to excell at things and are not always the losers on this show. 

[Arkay]

I'm white, but I was married to someone of a different race and my child and three grandchildren are mixed. If anyone had pointed out his race to my husband regarding something he had succeeded in, he would have found that very insulting. 

To me it seems very infantilizing. Kind of like expecting Probst to clap his hands and say "oh goodie, two black people won immunity, here's two gold stars." If he acted amazed that two black people won, how would that not be demeaning? They lasted long enough to make the jury while some whites and males were voted out earlier. Missy and Aaron are hard-bodied athletes and their tribes needed them to win. Now that it's individual immunity, they were a threat and this was the time to bounce them since they didn't have immunity or hidden idols. It's as simple as that. It's also that simple when two black people won immunity simultaneously. I hate Missy and Aaron and Elizabeth based on their deplorable actions last week. Period. Didn't Dr. King say he wanted his children to be judged, not on the color of their skin but on the content of their character? 

If two white people won the NY marathon, for example, instead of the Kenyans who seem to win all the time, I would hate it if that became a topic. The subtext would be that people didn't think white people could do it. 

I am a lifelong New Yorker and I see every different race and ethnic group every day, but I did not think Aaron was black until a few weeks ago when Missy said something to him along those lines. 

ETA: would someone explain to me what was "redneck" about the immunity challenge?

Edited November 22, 2019 by Arkay

[deirdra]

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

I would support Rob and Sandra giving us the play by play every season.  I like their snark and their insights.

I like their snark and insights too.  Instead of their "teaching" sessions, I'd like to hear them snark while watching the goings on at camp.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, huskerj12 said:

I am so weirded out that people didn't think Aaron was black!? What in the world?? Haha

I'm biracial myself but I didn't know.  But I love learning about people in that way.  I'm glad he spoke about his background openly, although, to be honest, did he ever mention it, or was it Missy who kept mentioning it?  I fully admit my own ignorance there.  That's why I didn't know, just ignorance.  The fact that it was so obvious to others shows that.  People get my race wrong often; I find it interesting though.

I 100% do NOT think Missy brought up race as a strategy.  I think she had zero idea she was going home or was even on the chopping block. I believe she thought it was a Karishma/Tommy split.  MAYBE seeing Aaron on the jury put fear into her, but by then it was too late.  If Missy thought she was in danger this week, why did she so openly tell everyone she was voting with Karishma?  Missy openly made it clear to everyone that Tommy was the vote.

I'm so glad people are calling out the tired "If you see race then you're a racist" argument.  That's an old, tired, racist trope.  If you see race you're not a racist at all.  It's important to see how oppression or privilege affects different groups.  It helps build empathy and understanding and it helps to fight oppressive practices and discrimination.  It helps us learn about each other, and that isn't harmful.  It's helpful.

Jeff recognizes when women do great things all the time.  Remember Cirie?  (Is that infantilizing, when Jeff points out a woman being great at X-Y-Z…. not sure).  Missy didn't feel like it was patronizing or infantilizing, so I don't know why so many believe it is.  She thought it was important, and she was proud. But Jeff's not confident talking about race.  That's fine.  He can choose to educate himself about the issues then he'll know when it's appropriate to touch on it. (I'm happy with how Jeff spoke about Dan and to Dan last week - a clear gender/sexual harassment issue.  Just not happy with the producers' lack of action with the problem.)

First there was Lauren openly saying that there's no way that Elaine has an idol, and now it's Noura and company not even thinking for 1 second that Karishma went idol-hunting.  That's pretty funny.  Some people have the opinion that "Everyone is idol hunting, all of the time, they just don't show it" but I don't believe that at all.  I definitely think there are players who take a very single-minded, blind, arrogant approach to idols - nobody is smart enough to find an idol, and I'm not even going to bother looking.  There was even a recent contestant who admitted it on camera - the redheaded young woman who wore a knitted cap all the time.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[HurricaneVal]

16 minutes ago, deirdra said:

I like their snark and insights too.  Instead of their "teaching" sessions, I'd like to hear them snark while watching the goings on at camp.  

Oh man, like commentary on a DVD.  Extra points if it can be like a audio channel we can select from our Xfinity remote, like getting the Spanish audio!

[greyflannel]

I really wish this whole "optics" thing would die a quick death. As in "Well, yes that was the best move for their game, but the optics..." What are people supposed to do? Make a move that is not as good for their game so it looks better? Makes no sense to me, and it's a shame that it's a thing.

[EllenB]

Well, since I've already compared Noura to the Cat in the Hat (but she don't know shit about that)

I'll add one for Karishma - the Poor Pitiful Pearl doll, popular in the late 1950s.  (I wanted one but my mother thought it was awful.  Now that I know it was created by William Steig, I REALLY want one!)

[LanceM]

13 hours ago, Josh371982 said:

No shame here I loved seeing Elizabeth losing her masters in the game and the look of her horrid self's face when Aaron was on Jury. She was one of the only dumb ones that thought keeping Aaron around was smart. Her " love you" to him was Barfworthy.

Not dumb at all. For her game it is smart to keep him around. Aaron was one of her top allies. Turning on him at F11 would have been stupid. Curious to see where her game goes from here. Now that her top two allies are gone she becomes free agent. And as such could stick around

[Blissfool]

5 hours ago, After7Only said:

Karisma also pointed out early that she is the first person of Indian descent to play the game and how that was a sense of pride for her to represent her heritage.   I don't recall hearing much backlash on here about that......

But I think it would have come off differently if JEFF had  pointed it out.

Similarly, I think people would not have made as big of a deal if Missy would have expressed pride for herself and Aaron herself, instead of assigning the responsibility to Jeff.

[Hpmec]

Not sorry to see Aaron and Missy booted. Both were too arrogant and smug for their own good. Krishma is useless, being kept around at this point only for her value as a goat. I enjoy Rob and Sandra's reactions, brief as they are, at Tribal Council. Whoever green lighted the Idols theme must be very disappointed in how it's playing out. Most of the time, Rob and Sandra must be twiddling their thumbs. Surely production could have better utilized them as mentors. They're turning into afterthoughts. 

[himela]

6 hours ago, Eolivet said:

Thought it was interesting exactly how production divided the tribes. They put the sexual harasser on a tribe with two other men (Tommy was an island on the other tribe) and away from Missy and Elizabeth (could it be that production saw what he did to them, regardless of how they supposedly felt about it?)

It’s decisions like that which make it more apparent than ever to me that production knew they had a problem and instead of actively doing something themselves, they chose simply to minimize their risk. Put the harasser with more men and away from the youngest (?) women. Total CYA move.

The two tribes were not decided by production. I guess they just picked rocks with colors.

[txvoodoo]

17 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Karishma  - in keeping with the theme of this season - had to tell Noura that actually no, you don't get to call medical for me as it's my body.  What in the hell is with these people and boundaries this season?? 

Thank you! And just today a friend was talking about how people challenge her when her husband has a seizure and she doesn't want to call 911. (She knows what to do, if they had an ambulance every time he had a seizure, they'd be bankrupt, etc.)

Noura just wants Karishma gone and is transparent.

And Missy was a bully. 

And Aaron was an idiot.

And I laughed my ass off. 

eta, after reading the rest of the thread. I totally agree with what Missy said about representation. That doesn't obviate that she's behaved more like a Survivor villain than a Survivor hero, in game context. She might be a wonderful person out of the game. In the game, she bullied, became overconfident at her apparent success, didn't stop to think that perhaps things were happening that benefited her without her involvement. Everything was because she was SO great! 

And then this hubris led to the sort-of bullying of Karisma: she became so convinced of her own power that she could just tell anyone what to do and they would/should accept it, without question. She forgot to play the social game. You can't ever forget that.

On another topic, are we ever going to see the Island of the Idols again? Or, from now on, will we only see Rob and Sandra commenting from their secret lair during Tribal? How sad.

I'm looking forward to next season.

GO JANET!

Edited November 22, 2019 by txvoodoo

[gingerella]

18 hours ago, GaT said:

I didn't think of this so much until today, but Missy used sexual assault last week for game play, & this week she tried using race/diversity as game play. This girl is such a bitch, I hope social media keeps dogging her for forever. I can't even imagine what she would have tried using for game play next, religion? gender identity? handicaps? I don't think she cares what boundaries she crosses as long as she wins.

^THIS times a million^

I was going to say the same thing. Missy is a nasty piece of shit, and she openly gloats that she has zero Fucks to give so long as it takes her farther in the Survivor game. The sexual harassment stuff was really a low point for this show, and the producer asking off camera if anything needed to happen smacked of legal CYA - “but did you ask them directly if they needed producers to intervene, good, then we’re covered legally.”  This shit was so obvious and it makes me sick. That no further convo happened is bullshit given how many times we’ve been shown footage of Dan getting touchy feely with various women without ever asking them “do you mind...” And the fact that one woman felt sincerely uncomfortable and other women used her situation against her sickens me. And that they flat out lied to Janet, roping her into their litte prank was just as bad. These bitches are the sort of women who give Women a bad name.

So when Missy chooses to call Peachy out about not congratulating her and Aaron’s on being two African American TC winners, I have ZERO FUCKS to give her because it came off as totally insincere and a way divert and deflect attention away from the heinous behavior she already knew she exhibited during Creeper Gate. Girl bye. She can try to explain away her behavior all she wants, but I will never forget what she and Elizabeth did, and I hope she feels the repercussions of her actions. Karma can be a real bitch.

And Miss Okie Fenokie is just as bad thinking this is all over and brushed under the rug. These people are idiots. At this point I’d be happier if they just let Robb and Sandra duke it’s out Mano a Mano and send the rest of these fuckwits home.

Edited November 22, 2019 by gingerella

[phlebas]

Finally caught up.

How could there have been a plot against Aaron? Aaron would have known about it. 

[Haleth]

I hope Peachy booked an extra hour for the reunion show because the issues that need to be discussed are so much larger than the silly things that usually dominate the show.

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I hope Peachy booked an extra hour for the reunion show because the issues that need to be discussed are so much larger than the silly things that usually dominate the show.

If Probst can stick to the people that actually played the game this season instead of wandering out into the audience and asking Cochran to plug his latest writing gig on CBS, maybe the important discussions can happen.  Back in the day, he managed to talk to everyone - even those voted out first and second.  It can be done.

[Ellee]

I keep going down this road .... there must be something I’m missing.  I agree with the poster though that said this is still not an excuse. I’m not making any.  I just think that like everything else you learn. There are lessons in life and typically they don’t happen to be shown to the world. 

Missy, Aaron and Elizabeth. All are  competitive people. Disciplined.  Focused.

Not sure of all of Missy’s background but we know that the ‘military training’ played a part.  Aaron -physical fitness.  Training, hard work, disciplined.  Elizabeth. The Olympics.  Yep, a little training, focus and discipline there.  

A strong team with success as their goal. 

I am leaning heavily toward believing the need for success overtook the actual thinking of the way they were getting there.  And by ‘the way they were getting there’ I don’t believe for a second that any one of them thought of #metoo, disrespecting Kellee and the women of the world.  

It was a game move  Pure and simple that turned out to be a life lesson learned in front of Survivor fandom.

Probably shouldn’t add this but I’m going to. As fans of Survivor, shouldn’t we allow them to show us who they really are?  

[RedbirdNelly]

12 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I 100% do NOT think Missy brought up race as a strategy.  I think she had zero idea she was going home or was even on the chopping block. I believe she thought it was a Karishma/Tommy split.  MAYBE seeing Aaron on the jury put fear into her, but by then it was too late.  If Missy thought she was in danger this week, why did she so openly tell everyone she was voting with Karishma?  Missy openly made it clear to everyone that Tommy was the vote.

I don't think she brought it up as short term strategy (that night's vote; she thought she was safe) but she did as long term strategy (jury play at a time when the entire jury is a minority minus Jack; working the jury seems to be becoming more blatant in my opinion). It's the only thing that explained the awkward timing where she just brings it up out of no where. On a night when a minority did not have the immunity necklace. Or there is editing that took out the discussion that made her bringing it up seem relevant.

[RedbirdNelly]

58 minutes ago, Ellee said:

I am leaning heavily toward believing the need for success overtook the actual thinking of the way they were getting there.  And by ‘the way they were getting there’ I don’t believe for a second that any one of them thought of #metoo, disrespecting Kellee and the women of the world.  

I don't disagree and if that was all there was, I wouldn't dislike Missy or Elizabeth. I won't blame people who aren't watching at home, getting normal sleep, involved in all the interactions I see for not drawing the same conclusions I do. So if they had just reacted to Kellee with "this is odd. I think she might be playing us. Dan is kind of odd but he's not harassed me so not sure what to make of this. . . " I would have no issue. They didn't see all the stuff we did. What I despise them for is pretending to be offended/playing up being harassed as game play. That is not ok full stop. Let's pretend all we know of Dan is he is a hugger. Some people are. I have no use for anyone pretending to be offended/claiming harassment as game play when they actually are not offended/feeling harassed. Harassment claims are real world. They go beyond the game. So lying about who you're voting for etc. is game play. They (according to them) lied about something that impacts a real person outside of the game which is 100% not ok (not that I'm concerned about Dan but they apparently would be ok pulling this on someone who has done nothing wrong at all). The fact it impacts women of the world makes it worse but it's the lie impacting outside of the game that makes me really dislike them---because that is not tied at all to "I didn't see how he treated Kellee" or "I thought Kellee might be exaggerating" or "I didn't have full information."

[ProfCrash]

53 minutes ago, Ellee said:

I keep going down this road .... there must be something I’m missing.  I agree with the poster though that said this is still not an excuse. I’m not making any.  I just think that like everything else you learn. There are lessons in life and typically they don’t happen to be shown to the world. 

Missy, Aaron and Elizabeth. All are  competitive people. Disciplined.  Focused.

Not sure of all of Missy’s background but we know that the ‘military training’ played a part.  Aaron -physical fitness.  Training, hard work, disciplined.  Elizabeth. The Olympics.  Yep, a little training, focus and discipline there.  

A strong team with success as their goal. 

I am leaning heavily toward believing the need for success overtook the actual thinking of the way they were getting there.  And by ‘the way they were getting there’ I don’t believe for a second that any one of them thought of #metoo, disrespecting Kellee and the women of the world.  

It was a game move  Pure and simple that turned out to be a life lesson learned in front of Survivor fandom.

Probably shouldn’t add this but I’m going to. As fans of Survivor, shouldn’t we allow them to show us who they really are?  

The only way they can do that is to talk to people and address the situation and right now they are not doing that.

We don't know why. It could be that something else happens during the season and that part of what they would say to address this mess would include spoilers. Look at Jamal's vague answer the Gordon Holmes's question about playing again, it is very vague. Essentially, lets see how the season ends. He knows the final 3 and everything that happens in the season. The phrasing, especially from him and in an emailed response, makes me think we have not heard the end of it this season.

I am not sure that the editing did a disservice to what happened back at camp. Kellee's comments and the attempt to deal with Dan happened in the first episode. We saw the fall out from the vote in the second episode. During that episode Missy and Elisabeth lied to Dan about why they said what they said to Janet. Jamal was voted out. With Kellee and Jamal gone, the only two people who seemed to think there was a real issue are gone. Janet no longer thinks it was as big a deal because Missy and Elisabeth lied to her, Missy in saying that she had no issue and Elisabeth in initially saying there was an issue. Dan believes that no one but Kellee had a problem with him.

Why would they still be discussing it at camp? In their minds, Dan is fine or they are willing to deal with Dan touching them. Janet talked to Dan to smooth over what happened because it is now done, she did the right thing, Dan gets it, and the others don't care.

For us, we are a week out from the events. For the players, they are 3 days away and the ones left in the game, don't care.

I do think that Elisabeth and Missy saw it as game play and did not see the line that they crossed. That does not excusing crossing the line. Elisabeth's apology on twitter reads like it was written by a PR firm but she clearly apologizes to Kellee and acknowledges that she did something wrong. Kellee has accepted the apology.

Aaron's apology made it clear that he had no idea exactly what happened out there and how it hurt Kellee. Kellee is cool with Aaron.

Missy has not posted or said anything even close to Elisabeth or Aaron posted. I am not sure that Missy fully gets what line she crossed or if there is something else afoot and we have not seen the end of her story.

It feels incomplete and I don't think that is because of editing.

[Bryce Lynch]

14 hours ago, After7Only said:

If you take the entirety of her speech into consideration.  She started talking about how women and minorities are statistically targeted early in the game of Survivor.  Which is factual.  Based on that fact, she was proud to still be there and that 2 minorities had won immunity back to back.   Good for her.  She's not obsessing on race, this is the first time she even mentioned race from what I can remember.   

Karisma also pointed out early that she is the first person of Indian descent to play the game and how that was a sense of pride for her to represent her heritage.   I don't recall hearing much backlash on here about that......

I'm not really big on racial or ethnic pride in any form.  But, I think Karishma's comment was a much more benign form of it.  She wasn't blasting someone for failing to mention that she was the first woman on Indian descent to play Survivor.  

Also, Missy was getting all sanctimonious about Jeff not singling them out for being black immunity winners, a few days after she had orchestrated a despicable lying and gaslighting plot around real sexual harassment.   

Also, Missy is a huge hypocrite when she talks about women and people of color being voted out first as she has voted out several women and people of color.  Of course she made those choices for strategic reasons, but so did the other contestants over the years, in all or nearly all cases.   

Edited November 22, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[tvgoddess]

10 hours ago, Hpmec said:

Not sorry to see Aaron and Missy booted. Both were too arrogant and smug for their own good. Krishma is useless, being kept around at this point only for her value as a goat. I enjoy Rob and Sandra's reactions, brief as they are, at Tribal Council. Whoever green lighted the Idols theme must be very disappointed in how it's playing out. Most of the time, Rob and Sandra must be twiddling their thumbs. Surely production could have better utilized them as mentors. They're turning into afterthoughts. 

There's a video up on CBS. com showing Rob swimming out to a rock island. He always wants to go out and do something, climb a mountain, go spear fishing, and Sandra is all whatever. Have fun. 

[Bryce Lynch]

After TC, Missy told Tommy, "I wasn't coming after you." 

All 5 votes were read.  3 were for Missy.  2 were for Tommy.

Was Missy actually trying to convince Tommy she voted for herself?  

Also, she acted all shocked and said to Elizabeth, "So, you were the other vote?" or something to that effect.   Unless it was her besty and partner and crime,  Elizabeth, who the hell else could it have been?  

Does Missy really think Elizabeth really gives a damn about taking vengeance on Elaine for her, at this point?   She is going to be desperately trying to save her own butt.  

This woman really has issues.  

Edited November 22, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Tryangle]

18 minutes ago, tvgoddess said:

There's a video up on CBS. com showing Rob swimming out to a rock island. He always wants to go out and do something, climb a mountain, go spear fishing, and Sandra is all whatever. Have fun. 

That's exactly how I'd picture them spending their time when not on Mentorship duty. 😄

[SuburbanHangSuite]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Also, Missy is a huge hypocrite when she talks about women and people of color being voted out first as she has voted out several women and people of color.  Of course she made those choices for strategic reasons, but so did the other contestants over the years, in all or nearly all cases.   

THIS.  So Mr. HangSuite is only a casual viewer of Survivor and he would always get annoyed if he happened to be watching and saw someone black being voted out because he would swear it was racially motivated.  And I would have to explain to him that, "No.  That person is a threat.  Or an asshole."  (Sometimes both)   And in this case, I think Missy and Aaron lacked the social skills to mask their "Threat" label with likeability that might've kept them in the game.  I think it's always especially impressive when a known threat is savvy enough to develop ties and bonds with the others that somehow lessen the target on their back and shift the votes to other less popular options.  Boston Rob wrote the book on that strategy.

[ProfCrash]

16 minutes ago, SuburbanHangSuite said:

THIS.  So Mr. HangSuite is only a casual viewer of Survivor and he would always get annoyed if he happened to be watching and saw someone black being voted out because he would swear it was racially motivated.  And I would have to explain to him that, "No.  That person is a threat.  Or an asshole."  (Sometimes both)   And in this case, I think Missy and Aaron lacked the social skills to mask their "Threat" label with likeability that might've kept them in the game.  I think it's always especially impressive when a known threat is savvy enough to develop ties and bonds with the others that somehow lessen the target on their back and shift the votes to other less popular options.  Boston Rob wrote the book on that strategy.

In fairness, Boston Rob won on his fourth appearance when playing with newbies who were star struck.

[ohcomeon]

I so liked Missy at the first part of the season. But her belief that she had the authority to dictate other's decisions or actions really caused me to dislike her game play. Maybe it's editing, but I can't remember her ever having a real discussion with anyone and getting their input. It was always her laying out the game plan.

But I don't think she is a bully but instead of interfacing with others based on her personal experience as an athlete and in the military.  With any team, there is always a coach or captain calling the plays and team members go along with that. Missy couldn't relate to a Karishma who probably never really participated as a "team player" being used to following the orders of another team member. Instead to her, Missy came across as trying to act in a parental role, something Karishma is already rebelling against in her personal life. Missy's youth and lack of experience didn't give her the ability to understand until too late that she needed to change her approach. 

Karishma was in no way ready to allow Missy to be the team captain making the play calls. Missy will be confused about being referred to as a bully because team captains aren't bullies and in Missy's mind, she had set herself up as the team captain. You even saw it with her interactions with Elizabeth.

[tvgoddess]

If anything, Karishma seemed like she was more upset at Missy because of the age gap. She kept saying "I have 13 years on her!" in regards to the discussions they were/were not having. That sounds like she was pissed off more than felt like she was bullied.

[Bryce Lynch]

33 minutes ago, tvgoddess said:

If anything, Karishma seemed like she was more upset at Missy because of the age gap. She kept saying "I have 13 years on her!" in regards to the discussions they were/were not having. That sounds like she was pissed off more than felt like she was bullied.

It took it that the age gap made it even more insulting to Karishma.  Being talked at and bossed around by someone your own age or older is bad enough.  Being treated that way by someone that much younger is worse.  

[Lamb18]

I'm watching right now and haven't read any of your comments yet. First thing I wanted to say -- dang, I wanted Janet to find the Idol!

[Lamb18]

I hope Aaron is getting set up for a fall.

Funny, I'm watching this on CBS All Access and there are commercials with those two critics from Sesame Street. Then I see Rob and Sandra in their tribal Council spy shack.

[tvgoddess]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It took it that the age gap made it even more insulting to Karishma.  Being talked at and bossed around by someone your own age or older is bad enough.  Being treated that way by someone that much younger is worse.  

Then maybe Karishma should have better social skills.

[Lamb18]

yay! Aaron's voted out! 

Elaine is so funny, pretending not to know what's going on. I'm beginning to appreciate Karishma a little.

Elizabeth's face! Missy shows her best personality when she's voted out.

I'm glad Janet and Noura are OK.

[Ashforth]

On 11/21/2019 at 8:38 AM, laurakaye said:

Since the word "bully" has come up, I found that scene very uncomfortable to watch.  Noura TOLD Karishma that Noura WAS going to call medical on her, point blank, period.  Karishma  - in keeping with the theme of this season - had to tell Noura that actually no, you don't get to call medical for me as it's my body.  What in the hell is with these people and boundaries this season??  I hated Noura in that moment - I think her motivation was to get Karishma out of the game but the way she went about it was not okay.

I got the impression that Noura was actually concerned, given Karishma's apparently constant general lethargy and strange demeanor when she returned to camp. Or she was calling bullshit on Karishma's claim of illness. Either way, I didn't see anything wrong with it.

[seacliffsal]

I'm still chuckling over Missy's last comment to Karishma that she (Missy) was going to take Karishma to the end.  It amuses me because she says this on her way OUT to Karishma who is STILL there.  Hmmm, okay Missy.  Also, I think Elizabeth may have found out that Missy wasn't planning on taking her to the end.  Maybe Elizabeth won't be so worried about raining down torture upon Elaine for her role in Missy's ouster.  

[GaT]

12 hours ago, Haleth said:

I hope Peachy booked an extra hour for the reunion show because the issues that need to be discussed are so much larger than the silly things that usually dominate the show.

I'm wondering if Dan, Missy & Elizabeth, & possibly Aaron will actually show up for the reunion. I guess it all depends on how bad social media is to them. Which I hope is very bad.