S39.E09: Two for the Price of One

[Kenzie]

8 minutes ago, GaT said:

I'm wondering if Dan, Missy & Elizabeth, & possibly Aaron will actually show up for the reunion. I guess it all depends on how bad social media is to them. Which I hope is very bad.

They sign a contract to show up and will lose about $10,000 for not doing so. My guess is money will win out.

[Ashforth]

On 11/21/2019 at 4:47 PM, amazingracefan said:

It would be good if people saw themselves as more than just a skin color though. 

It would be good if our society didn't have deeply rooted, institutional and individual racism against people of color. People who acknowledge that they are subjected to routine racism aren't the ones who are seeing them as just a skin color.

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It took it that the age gap made it even more insulting to Karishma.  Being talked at and bossed around by someone your own age or older is bad enough.  Being treated that way by someone that much younger is worse.  

If it's a person who has actual authority over you, like your boss, maybe you just suck it up and plan your exit strategy. If it's someone who is supposed to be your peer in a contest, screw them. 

[meep.meep]

4 hours ago, tvgoddess said:

Then maybe Karishma should have better social skills.

Or, since Karishma is still in the game and Missy isn't, Missy should have better social skills.  The way to make people feel included is to ask them what they think you should do.  Not to bark out the plan and ask if there are any questions.

In the military there's usually a person in charge.  But in most social settings, there isn't.  Everyone is equal.  Missy didn't treat Karishma like an equal, she treated her like a subordinate.

Bye bye Missy!

[After7Only]

12 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Also, Missy is a huge hypocrite when she talks about women and people of color being voted out first as she has voted out several women and people of color.  Of course she made those choices for strategic reasons, but so did the other contestants over the years, in all or nearly all cases.   

I guess an argument can be made that women are statistically  voted out earlier than men due to strategic reasons (perceived to be physically weak?).  But that strategy is generally based in misogynistic thinking (valuing physical strength over, all other attributes).  I don’t now what strategic reason there would be for people of color to statistically be voted out earlier than others, besides that strategy being based in racism

Those 2 things are Missy’s point.  She is free to vote out whoever she chooses.   But I don’t think her choices were based in racism or misogyny.   To be clear, voting out a woman or person of color does not make you a racist or misogynist.   But it’s naive to think one’s race or gender (as well as age, level of attractiveness etc) does not affect your perception and value in this game.  Statistics don’t lie.   
 

[llongori]

On 11/21/2019 at 7:09 PM, deirdra said:

I like their snark and insights too.  Instead of their "teaching" sessions, I'd like to hear them snark while watching the goings on at camp.  

Yes!  Just have them do a running commentary at the bottom of the screen a la MST.  LOL

[JudyObscure]

On 11/21/2019 at 8:01 PM, Arkay said:

would someone explain to me what was "redneck" about the immunity challenge?

LOL, I wondered about that, too!  Plus Elaine called herself a hillbilly and as a West Virginian I've always claimed that title for myself and thought Elaine from Kentucky  would properly call herself a briar.   My son and I just put our heads together for a redneck game and came up with whack-a-mole.  If that's the next challenge we'll know production is on Elaine's side.

[CountryGirl]

While I'm annoyed that the predatory pervert is still in the game, I'm perfectly okay with one of his minions and the mansplainer being ousted. The fact that both boots were aligned with Elizabeth is the cherry on the sundae.

And Missy can STFU forever for her ridiculous attempt to call Jeff out for not calling attention to two POC winning immunity last week. First, he sees the contestants as people, period, and nothing unusual about POC winning immunity or reward challenges. But even if he didn't view it that way, maybe, just maybe he was focused on harassment issue that she used to her advantage until it no longer suited her game and proceeded to drop like a hot potato. Also you helped to blindside not one, but two POC, and one of them was a woman.

Not unlike the show, but then again, I had (and have) ZERO expectations of show addressing it. I haven't forgotten what show it is that I'm watching even though it is 2019.

Also, WTF to her dragging out her exit. 

Between that, her lame ass attempt to lie straight to Tommy's face about how she wasn't coming for him when she WROTE his name down,  trying to play the race card, and this, on the heels of what she did to Kellee and Jamal (including her non-apology), I don't see how she likes whom she sees in the mirror. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by CountryGirl

[Eolivet]

42 minutes ago, Sarah Heart said:

I'd quite like a normal TC, with terrific blindsides, and talk about camp.

I'd like that, too, but here's the problem: as long as Dan is here, that will not happen for me. As long as Dan is in the game, all I will continue to see is the massive production failure that allows for his continued presence, and that sent Kellee home. I cannot watch this like "normal" Survivor anymore, knowing there's someone who at the very least made a whole bunch of women uncomfortable and at the very worst, preyed on younger women knowing they had no recourse for his inappropriate advances. And he's still there, and the show's acting like this is no big deal.

I should not be watching this and thinking "I wish I didn't know this, if I was ignorant, I could go back to enjoying this season" because that's awful for Kellee, for Janet, for all the women who Dan harassed, whether they admitted it or not, but I'm at a loss here. How can we go back to game play and blindsides and fun, unpredictable Survivor when every episode with this guy in it feels like they're taunting us, by showing us all his despicable behavior and then basically bragging that he got away with it.

I honestly cannot believe I'm saying this, but I almost wish the show had swept it under the rug. The fact that they thought it was okay to rip open that wound, leave it exposed and raw and then, like freaking Monty Python and the Holy Grail, do the equivalent of, "It's just a scratch." No, it's not just a scratch, Survivor -- my arm's off.

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, Eolivet said:

I honestly cannot believe I'm saying this, but I almost wish the show had swept it under the rug. 

I really wish they would have. The season is completely ruined now because of it and honestly they may have just ruined the show altogether for me. I won't lie, I just wish they had edited it all out.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I really wish they would have. The season is completely ruined now because of it and honestly they may have just ruined the show altogether for me. I won't lie, I just wish they had edited it all out.

I wish Production hadn’t screwed up dealing with it. I fully believe that Aaron and Missy had no clue what Production was asking about with the individual conversations. And then Production did nothing to prepare anyone for how it was depicted. 

I am glad they showed it be because it is a difficult topic, one that CBS underestimated, again.

[ByaNose]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I wish Production hadn’t screwed up dealing with it. I fully believe that Aaron and Missy had no clue what Production was asking about with the individual conversations. And then Production did nothing to prepare anyone for how it was depicted. 

I am glad they showed it be because it is a difficult topic, one that CBS underestimated, again.

It does make you wonder what production said to Dan. Unless, they specifically mentioned Kellee he might been have clueless since he was always liked this and never accused of it. Of course. Kellee told him on Day 1 he might not have known what production was talking about unless they specifically said it’s YOU!!! Even the warning/penalty is vague. What was the penalty? I think production and Jeff totally mishandled the whole thing during the game and after the airing of the episode. 

[ProfCrash]

9 hours ago, ByaNose said:

It does make you wonder what production said to Dan. Unless, they specifically mentioned Kellee he might been have clueless since he was always liked this and never accused of it. Of course. Kellee told him on Day 1 he might not have known what production was talking about unless they specifically said it’s YOU!!! Even the warning/penalty is vague. What was the penalty? I think production and Jeff totally mishandled the whole thing during the game and after the airing of the episode. 

Jamal said in his interview that Dan spoke directly to Kellee when she was on the jury and Kellee wasn't able to respond. I think Dan had a bit of a clue. I think that Dan was not as aware that other women had complained about him as well. And then Elisabeth and Missy lied about their comments.

It is a giant cluster fuck.

1) Dan caused the problem by not listening to Kellee.

2) Dan continued to advance the problem by touching all of the younger women in ways that were not appropriate. Some of them laughed it off but we heard enough conversations with women comparing where Dan touched them and the eye rolls and comments that we know he was touching the women in ways that are not acceptable.

3) Lauren and Kellee both have said, in interviews on the show, that they told Dan to stop. We know Dan did not stop with Kellee. It sounds like he did with Lauren based on her aired interview.

4) Missy was uncomfortable enough and told Kellee that she was not the only one. So much so that Kellee said that there were 5 women who were uncomfortable in an interview and the Producer finally broke through and said something.

5) Missy and Elisabeth clearly engineered the ramping up of their discomfort to Janet so that Janet would vote for Dan. Jamal was on board with voting for Dan for game and personal reasons. I have absolutely no clue how anyone could not see this as a line not to cross but both claim to have been in hyper game mode and not realized exactly what they were doing.

6) Aaron was in the dark. I can actually by that Aaron was in the dark. He didn't talk to Kellee much and she was not going to tell him her personal feelings because they were not friendly in the game. Missy and Elisabeth never said anything to him because they were not that uncomfortable with things. Missy and Elisabeth never said anything to him about lying to Janet because, well, why would they. That would mean that they had to be aware that they were crossing the giant red, flashing social line on the ground that they clearly did not realize they were crossing.

In the end, Production should have pulled Dan once Kellee actually talked with them more formally. Their weak ass conversation with participants is no excuse to not have pulled Dan. I believe Aaron and Missy when they say that Productions "conversations" with individual players was essentially "Yoy god? Cool. Let us know if your not good. Oh, and respect personal boundaries. OK? Cool." Why do I believe them, because if they are not portraying those conversations accurately, Production would will bust the video out to show us what was said. And we all know that those were recorded. The fact that Peachy and CBS has not busted out the video makes it clear to me that Aaron and Missy are not exaggerating the lack of a real conversation.

In the end, Dan is an ass because he did not respect the don't touch me from Kellee. And Dan is an ass because who the hell strokes a grown ass woman's leg while lying on the ground and thinks that is ok?

Missy and Elisabeth have to own the fact that they weaponized harassment. If they are so focused on anything that they cannot see that lying about or exaggerating harassment of any kind is flat out wrong then they need to work on getting perspective. Both of them have been through a ton of training on this subject, Missy at the Air Force Academy and Elisabeth as an Olympian, they should have known better. I don't buy the explanation because there are lines you do not cross no matter what and this is one of them.

Production royally fucked this up and has been blind sided because they thought they did a good job. How they could think that, I have no clue. They should have pulled Dan once Kellee was crying on camera. If it gets to the point that Production has to check in with everyone, it is time to pull the person responsible. Productions individual conversations should have been far more clear. As in "There has been a report that a contestant is inappropriately touching women. Have you experienced this." Production had the footage, they showed how many clips to us?, to back up Kellee's report. There was no reason to keep Dan in the game.

[ByaNose]

14 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Jamal said in his interview that Dan spoke directly to Kellee when she was on the jury and Kellee wasn't able to respond. I think Dan had a bit of a clue. I think that Dan was not as aware that other women had complained about him as well. And then Elisabeth and Missy lied about their comments.

It is a giant cluster fuck.

1) Dan caused the problem by not listening to Kellee.

2) Dan continued to advance the problem by touching all of the younger women in ways that were not appropriate. Some of them laughed it off but we heard enough conversations with women comparing where Dan touched them and the eye rolls and comments that we know he was touching the women in ways that are not acceptable.

3) Lauren and Kellee both have said, in interviews on the show, that they told Dan to stop. We know Dan did not stop with Kellee. It sounds like he did with Lauren based on her aired interview.

4) Missy was uncomfortable enough and told Kellee that she was not the only one. So much so that Kellee said that there were 5 women who were uncomfortable in an interview and the Producer finally broke through and said something.

5) Missy and Elisabeth clearly engineered the ramping up of their discomfort to Janet so that Janet would vote for Dan. Jamal was on board with voting for Dan for game and personal reasons. I have absolutely no clue how anyone could not see this as a line not to cross but both claim to have been in hyper game mode and not realized exactly what they were doing.

6) Aaron was in the dark. I can actually by that Aaron was in the dark. He didn't talk to Kellee much and she was not going to tell him her personal feelings because they were not friendly in the game. Missy and Elisabeth never said anything to him because they were not that uncomfortable with things. Missy and Elisabeth never said anything to him about lying to Janet because, well, why would they. That would mean that they had to be aware that they were crossing the giant red, flashing social line on the ground that they clearly did not realize they were crossing.

In the end, Production should have pulled Dan once Kellee actually talked with them more formally. Their weak ass conversation with participants is no excuse to not have pulled Dan. I believe Aaron and Missy when they say that Productions "conversations" with individual players was essentially "Yoy god? Cool. Let us know if your not good. Oh, and respect personal boundaries. OK? Cool." Why do I believe them, because if they are not portraying those conversations accurately, Production would will bust the video out to show us what was said. And we all know that those were recorded. The fact that Peachy and CBS has not busted out the video makes it clear to me that Aaron and Missy are not exaggerating the lack of a real conversation.

In the end, Dan is an ass because he did not respect the don't touch me from Kellee. And Dan is an ass because who the hell strokes a grown ass woman's leg while lying on the ground and thinks that is ok?

Missy and Elisabeth have to own the fact that they weaponized harassment. If they are so focused on anything that they cannot see that lying about or exaggerating harassment of any kind is flat out wrong then they need to work on getting perspective. Both of them have been through a ton of training on this subject, Missy at the Air Force Academy and Elisabeth as an Olympian, they should have known better. I don't buy the explanation because there are lines you do not cross no matter what and this is one of them.

Production royally fucked this up and has been blind sided because they thought they did a good job. How they could think that, I have no clue. They should have pulled Dan once Kellee was crying on camera. If it gets to the point that Production has to check in with everyone, it is time to pull the person responsible. Productions individual conversations should have been far more clear. As in "There has been a report that a contestant is inappropriately touching women. Have you experienced this." Production had the footage, they showed how many clips to us?, to back up Kellee's report. There was no reason to keep Dan in the game.

I agree about pulling Dan from the game. They had tape of Kellee and others talking about be uncomfortable with him and his actions. Can you imagine if Dan had left the game on Day 2 or 3? It might have been a different season. Of course, I also think it would be a different season if Kellee had played one of her HII. Whyyyyyyy? Kelleeeeeeeeeeee why didn't you play your idol? LOL!!! All that said, there are only 4 or so episodes left and I wonder where Dan lands? Is he voted out at 5 or does he make the Final 4 and Finale night? Ugh!

[ProfCrash]

40 minutes ago, ByaNose said:

I agree about pulling Dan from the game. They had tape of Kellee and others talking about be uncomfortable with him and his actions. Can you imagine if Dan had left the game on Day 2 or 3? It might have been a different season. Of course, I also think it would be a different season if Kellee had played one of her HII. Whyyyyyyy? Kelleeeeeeeeeeee why didn't you play your idol? LOL!!! All that said, there are only 4 or so episodes left and I wonder where Dan lands? Is he voted out at 5 or does he make the Final 4 and Finale night? Ugh!

I don't disagree with you but they are two different issues. Kellee misplayed the use of idols, but that is a totally different story line then the Dan issue.

We should not have had the Kelle/Missy/Elisabeth/Janet drama over Dan at this point in the season. Dan should have been gone.

We should be bitching about Kellee not using her idol against some other player.

So yes, Kellee had some bad game play there but it is the tertiary story to me. Dan being in the game and Elisabeth and Missy weaponizing harassment are bigger to me. 

I also think that Kellee was in a weird emotional place because of everything that was going on with Dan. I think Kellee thought she had Missy, Elisabeth, Janet, Jamal, Noura strongly in her vote against Dan. I think Kellee thought that Missy and Elisabeth had talked to Lauren and Elaine. In Kellee's mind this is an easy vote and she could save two idols. There was something bothering Kellee at Tribal but that could have been nerves associated with Dan.

And none of that should have been in play because Dan should have been removed earlier in the game or at least before that vote when it was clear to Production that Kellee and others were not comfortable with Dan's touching.

I also think there can be a difference between not comfortable with the touch and not being afraid that something worse might happen. I can see Kellee, Lauren and Missy not being comfortable with how Dan was touching them but not being worried that Dan was going to attack them. In that situation is might be easier for someone to say "we can deal with it in the game." because you are not worried about being physically hurt or long term damage to a career or something. But Production has a role to step in when it gets to the point that contestants are making that type of distinction, and I think Kellee and Missy were both there, and remove the offender because the action by the offender has crossed a line and is wrong.

[DEL901]

If Dan had touched my foot they he did (was it Missy's?), I'd have kicked him hard and then said, "Oh, I thought it was a creepy, crawly insect, not you.  Sorry, Dan."

And I agree, production should have pulled Dan.  It wasn't he said, she said.  It was all on tape.  

[Bryce Lynch]

On 11/22/2019 at 8:14 PM, meep.meep said:

Or, since Karishma is still in the game and Missy isn't, Missy should have better social skills.  The way to make people feel included is to ask them what they think you should do.  Not to bark out the plan and ask if there are any questions.

In the military there's usually a person in charge.  But in most social settings, there isn't.  Everyone is equal.  Missy didn't treat Karishma like an equal, she treated her like a subordinate.

Bye bye Missy!

Exactly, and Missy treated her that way with no awareness that people might not enjoy having her boss them around.  

She is so arrogant and self-centered that she seems convinced that the whole world thinks she is in charge.  

[MissEwa]

19 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I really wish they would have. The season is completely ruined now because of it and honestly they may have just ruined the show altogether for me. I won't lie, I just wish they had edited it all out.

I'm torn on this. I would be furious if I found out this happened and it was edited out, but I am also just... deflated by how it's been handled. I don't know if it's hit too close to the bone but it's just made me sad and tired. I haven't watched this episode. I've had plenty of time and opportunity to, and obviously I still care enough to be reading these threads, but every time I think about putting it on I just feel this wave of exhaustion. I love Survivor. I have for years and years. This really bites. 

[HurricaneVal]

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I also think there can be a difference between not comfortable with the touch and not being afraid that something worse might happen. I can see Kellee, Lauren and Missy not being comfortable with how Dan was touching them but not being worried that Dan was going to attack them. In that situation is might be easier for someone to say "we can deal with it in the game." because you are not worried about being physically hurt or long term damage to a career or something. But Production has a role to step in when it gets to the point that contestants are making that type of distinction, and I think Kellee and Missy were both there, and remove the offender because the action by the offender has crossed a line and is wrong.

I have been struggling with how to express exactly this.  Thank you.  Survivor is a strange canvas for this issue to be painted on.  If this were the real world, say in the work place, or at the gym, or at school, inappropriate touching like that would carry with it an actual fear that the creep may be waiting by your car, or will follow you home, or will otherwise accost you where he'll have more privacy to take the touching further.  On Survivor, where you're followed with cameras and producers 24/7, and are constantly with your other tribemates, then there isn't that fear that you'll find yourself unexpectedly alone with the creeper.  So yeah, Missy and Elisabeth were more blase about it than they would be elsewhere.  I felt that as soon as Elisabeth made that comment that despite the touching, she felt "safe."  Of course she feels "safe," even Dan isn't so much of a sleazy horndog that he'd attack someone on camera with multiple witnesses.

That said, I certainly wouldn't want to go to Ponderosa with him.  There appears to be more privacy and solitude available there.  I'd want to make sure I had a lock on my door (though as I understand it, the accommodations at Ponderosa aren't exactly secure rooms) and make sure I used the buddy system and hung out with at least one other person and was never alone.  These are the things that women have to think about.

[kassandra8286]

2 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

That said, I certainly wouldn't want to go to Ponderosa with him.  There appears to be more privacy and solitude available there.  I'd want to make sure I had a lock on my door (though as I understand it, the accommodations at Ponderosa aren't exactly secure rooms) and make sure I used the buddy system and hung out with at least one other person and was never alone.  These are the things that women have to think about.

Ugh, good point. Plus, Ponderosa has alcohol available (at least they always used to, haven't seen any of this season's videos.) I can only imagine how much more handsy Feely Dan gets after a few cocktails. *shudders*

[kaygeeret]

Ok, so I sometimes get lost in all the references.  Jamal had an interview - -when and where?

'Cause I sure missed it.

BUT, my main point is that Dan spoke DIRECTLY to Kellee at tribal and she WAS NOT ABLE TO RESPOND!

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure Jeffie baby, you're not going to let the topic drop.

Sure, production you did SUCH a great job handling this.

Seriously, who the hell is running the show here.

Talk about silencing the victim. And I take no pleasure in referring to Kellee as a victim because I do not see her as one.  BUT in the context of the show, everything gets a bit skewed.

I simply do not understand why the damn show runners/production/CBS don't for the freaking pete's sake just suck it up AND DO THE RIGHT THING!!!!!!

[ProfCrash]

I can't find the interview but I remember wanting to throw up when I read it.

As for Jamal interviews, there are a good number out there. There are fewer Aaron interviews because he wanted to do it via email and many of the interviewers were not interested in an email interview. They allowed it for Kellee and Jamal because of craziness of Kellee's exit and respecting her need for more time to process but did not see the need for Aaron and Missy.

[himela]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I can't find the interview but I remember wanting to throw up when I read it.

As for Jamal interviews, there are a good number out there. There are fewer Aaron interviews because he wanted to do it via email and many of the interviewers were not interested in an email interview. They allowed it for Kellee and Jamal because of craziness of Kellee's exit and respecting her need for more time to process but did not see the need for Aaron and Missy.

Yeah this sucks. Aaron and Missy should have proper interviews and tell their side of the story. 

[ProfCrash]

Parade has interviews with Missy and Aaron

https://parade.com/tag/survivor/

[ProfCrash]

Quote

Let’s get into the events of the merge. You and Kellee commiserate over Dan’s inappropriate handsiness. Can you talk about your feelings towards Dan then, and the connection you initially fostered with Kellee?
My conversation with Kellee on the beach was a sincere one. I felt very comfortable with Kellee. Immediately after our conversation, I am told by Lauren that Kellee actually wants to vote me out. I was shook. I honestly had no idea.

I did not realize the extent of the situation with Kellee and Dan. I did not connect our production meeting to Kellee and dan either. I was very much in game mode and focused on the upcoming challenge. I felt as though production was checking in with us individually. They told us to be mindful of others, and then I was back in the game, ready for the challenge.

So how did the target end up being turned onto Kellee?
I had no idea that Kellee was spoken to by production in an unprecedented Survivor scene. That was news to me as I was watching it all play back. I had no idea that Dan had been issued a warning. The information I did have was that Kellee is uncomfortable with Dan, and Kellee wants me to go home. My thought process was to make Kellee want someone else to go home more than she wants me to go.

After your conversation with Kellee, you then went to Elizabeth and urged her to play up how uncomfortable she is with Dan to Janet and Kellee, saying, “That’s our only play.” Can you elaborate on your intention behind that?
This situation was highly emotional because we were in game mode. It came down to a bad game of telephone, and in no way did I fully understand the severity of Dan’s behavior. I thought to myself many times that if Dan’s behavior was indeed so horrible, why was he still in the game? I felt safe due to being filmed 24/7 and had no reason to think otherwise. Again, I did not know about Kellee’s or Dan’s personal talks with production.

What was your reaction in watching everything from all sides last week, particularly after Kellee’s blindside when you and Elizabeth deny to Dan you ever felt uncomfortable?
In watching the show back, I want to apologize for using such a serious topic as gameplay. If I would have known the extent of the situation, I would not have engaged in the way that I did. I am deeply sorry for my part in any pain felt by viewers and anyone who has dealt with sexual assault. I can only take this as a learning experience. Thank you all for the love and understanding.

Copying pasting a large amount of the Parade interview with the Missy because someone indicated that they cannot get to the Parade page.

The statement I have an issue with is "I did not realize the extent of the situation with Kellee and Dan." Missy spent two hours talking with Kellee and knew Kellee was very uncomfortable with Dan. There is no way to downplay that conversation. I get that Missy was thrown off guard by Lauren's comment but none of that excuses telling Elisabeth to pretend to be uncomfortable when talking to Janet. And none of it explains Missy's lying to Dan about her conversation with Janet, lying to Aaron about why Janet was so upset, or lying to Dan that his touching had been inappropriate.

I don't buy the idea of game play taking over on the issue of harassment. It is a red line that should not have been crossed.

[DEL901]

7 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I don't buy the idea of game play taking over on the issue of harassment. It is a red line that should not have been crossed.

THIS!  Under no circumstances is "game plan" a justification for accusations of harassment.  Period.  This is someone's life you are playing with, if he is innocent.  And whether innocent or guilty, you've just shown that women's accounts of harassment aren't to be believed because they'll use it to get ahead.

[Rachel RSL]

All these exit interviews sound remarkably similar.  They've all clearly been coached by TPTB to play up the "I didn't have all the information" angle.  The one thing that these interviews has made clear though is that the meeting production had with all the players was 100% grade A bullshit.  It sounds more like it was a casual "Hey guys, remember to give each other space anyway GAME ON!"  So casual and vague that nobody even bothered paying attention to it or wondered why it was said.

[laurakaye]

On 11/22/2019 at 7:54 PM, Kenzie said:

They sign a contract to show up and will lose about $10,000 for not doing so. My guess is money will win out.

This is one reunion that I both very much want to see and very much don't want to see.  The cast, and Probst, cannot sweep ANYTHING under the rug at the live reunion like they're doing with the already taped-and-edited show.  The way this was handled has stirred up a massive firestorm of controversy.  There will be no hiding it.  That said, money or no money, the fact that Dan is still radio silent is very telling.  If he maintains his silence up until the end of the season and then shows up at the reunion to collect his money and pontificate about how he didn't think what he was doing was wrong - I hope he gets booed off the stage.  I just can't imagine any scenario where this reunion isn't going to be the most off-putting, awful reunion in the history of this show.

19 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

That said, I certainly wouldn't want to go to Ponderosa with him.  There appears to be more privacy and solitude available there.  I'd want to make sure I had a lock on my door (though as I understand it, the accommodations at Ponderosa aren't exactly secure rooms) and make sure I used the buddy system and hung out with at least one other person and was never alone.  These are the things that women have to think about.

This just makes me so angry, because no one should have to get voted off from one awful, uncomfortable situation into another where there may be even less monitoring than what they get on the island.  That's not what these people signed up for - to have to be hypervigilant against a guy who can't keep his hands to himself.

[blackwing]

On 11/21/2019 at 1:23 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

1 all black final 3 out of 39 seasons?  You think that proves that the contestants of this show DON'T vote out minorities and women first?

I wish people were more open to talking about it, and I wish Missy's statement didn't upset people.  Nothing she said was remotely insulting.  Or even untrue.   Everyone's laughing about all of the minorities on the jury……….This only goes to prove Missy's point more.  People tend to vote out women and minorities before men and non-minorities.  

I think there's a perception that women and minorities get voted out first but I really don't think that's true.  I think the ones that get voted out first tend to be the weak ones or the overly bossy ones.  I really don't think race has anything to do with it.  That season where there were three Asian women and two of them were the first two boots?  The first woman was definitely voted out because she was incredibly bossy.  Nothing to do with race.  Out of 38 seasons, there have been 8 minority winners, half of whom were women.  1 black woman, 1 Hispanic woman twice, 1 South Asian woman, 3 black men, 1 East Asian man.

If anything, the East Asian female has the worst track record.  It seems to me that Asian females get cast much more often than Asian males, and yet the Asian female rarely has any kind of success.  Many of them are viewed as bossy (So Kim, the aforementioned Rachel), weak, manipulative, forgettable, or crazy/bitchy (Shii Ann).  When was the last time there was a strong East Asian female?

On 11/21/2019 at 1:54 PM, tiredofwork said:

Wow... I am disheartened at the vitriol being leveled at Missy..  I understand she is not likable  for her personality and game play but the fact that she took note of an achievement of something not done before on the show by two African/American persons is to some offensive and "racist"?    

On 11/21/2019 at 2:34 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I think the issue with Missy bringing it up is that, like the sexual harassment debacle of last episode, instead of using that information as a way to inform the audience and to make a valid point, she used it as strategy because, in this particular case, she knew that she was in danger of going home. I felt like she used it as a veiled threat, as in "If you vote me out, you'll be perceived as racist!" She used it at the very last moment, right before voting, so it felt like she awkwardly interjected it in. I wish the subject had come up more naturally, because it's obviously something that should be discussed.

I dislike Missy a lot, but I really don't think she was using race as a weapon or argument to not vote her out.  She didn't even think she was in danger of going home.  She was convinced that Karishma was with her and that Tommy was absolutely going home.  I truly think that she was really proud of the fact that two black contestants had won individual immunity.  Her perception was that people think that minorities are all weak and easy early boots (even if I think she is wrong, that is her perception and she is entitled to it) and she was proud of the fact that she and Aaron were defying that perception.

As much as I dislike her, I do think she was very sincere.  It sounded like she was almost crying from pride.

On 11/21/2019 at 2:51 PM, huskerj12 said:

I am so weirded out that people didn't think Aaron was black!? What in the world?? Haha

I had no idea he was black until I read it here some weeks ago.  During the first week, I (and apparently many others) couldn't tell him and Ronnie apart.  I thought both were Italian.

[ProfCrash]

Just now, Rachel RSL said:

All these exit interviews sound remarkably similar.  They've all clearly been coached by TPTB to play up the "I didn't have all the information" angle.  The one thing that these interviews has made clear though is that the meeting production had with all the players was 100% grade A bullshit.  It sounds more like it was a casual "Hey guys, remember to give each other space anyway GAME ON!"  So casual and vague that nobody even bothered paying attention to it or wondered why it was said.

I can buy Aaron saying he didn't know what was happening. He actually said he had no information during tribal council. OK, so the way he said it was incredibly stupid and awful but he was clear that he had heard nothing about anyone being uncomfortable.

I do not buy Missy or Elisabeth's comments that they did not get how uncomfortable Kellee was. Kellee spent 2 hours telling Missy how uncomfortable Kellee was. Missy knew that she could use that info to change the target to Dan if enough women told Janet that they were uncomfortable then Janet would vote for Dan.

Missy and Elisabeth were clear that they were using the accusation in order to change the vote. And they have to own that. Elisabeth did in her apology. She explicitly said her game play was wrong and should not have happened. Missy has not gotten there yet and I think is deflecting as best that she can. I hope that she understands exactly why her defense of her actions is inexcusable by the time of the reunion and can admit that her game play was 100% wrong and out of line.

[Bryce Lynch]

30 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

All these exit interviews sound remarkably similar.  They've all clearly been coached by TPTB to play up the "I didn't have all the information" angle.  The one thing that these interviews has made clear though is that the meeting production had with all the players was 100% grade A bullshit.  It sounds more like it was a casual "Hey guys, remember to give each other space anyway GAME ON!"  So casual and vague that nobody even bothered paying attention to it or wondered why it was said.

I don't know if the TPTB told them what to say or if they discussed it among themselves. 

[MrsR]

Dan isn't saying anything because his lawyers told him to Shut The F Up.

We will not hear from him and it's unlikely that he will appear at the reunion.

I'm not as sad as others over this and it won't change my attitude toward the show. I've dealt with it myself and responded aggressively when it did. I'm lucky that I don't have the freeze response. 
 

I just think that the odds of this crap happening at some time during the 39 seasons was very high, so I'm just not floored by it. I mean naked Richard Hatch right from the get go.

Humans suck. In fact the show relies on that fact.

[MissEwa]

2 hours ago, laurakaye said:

This is one reunion that I both very much want to see and very much don't want to see.  The cast, and Probst, cannot sweep ANYTHING under the rug at the live reunion like they're doing with the already taped-and-edited show.  The way this was handled has stirred up a massive firestorm of controversy.  There will be no hiding it.  That said, money or no money, the fact that Dan is still radio silent is very telling.  If he maintains his silence up until the end of the season and then shows up at the reunion to collect his money and pontificate about how he didn't think what he was doing was wrong - I hope he gets booed off the stage.  I just can't imagine any scenario where this reunion isn't going to be the most off-putting, awful reunion in the history of this show.

This is why I'm wondering if we'll get a reunion at all, and if we do, in what form. I feel like the traditional live reunion in front of a huge audience is out - too many variables, too much opportunity for a cast or audience member to say the wrong thing and turn it into a shitshow.

I feel like it'll almost certainly not be live, and I wonder if they'll have an audience. I could see it going the way of those old school Top Chef reunions (maybe they still do them, I stopped watching years ago) where it's just Jeff and the cast having a little therapy session and talking it out.

And that's before you even get too far into who's going to be there and who's not. Yes it's $10k but with the level of hate Dan, Missy and Elizabeth are getting, I wouldn't be surprised if one or all of them skipped it. 

[ProfCrash]

I am not sure that Dan can speak yet since he is still on the show. And I cannot see Survivor giving him the clearance to speak until after he is voted out. It will be interesting to see if he participates in interviews or not.

[Sarnia]

51 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I am not sure that Dan can speak yet since he is still on the show. And I cannot see Survivor giving him the clearance to speak until after he is voted out. It will be interesting to see if he participates in interviews or not.

Aaron, Missy and Elisabeth all publicly reacted to Kellee's boot episode while they were still on the show just as much as Dan, so he could speak if he wanted to.

[ProfCrash]

2 hours ago, Sarnia said:

Aaron, Missy and Elisabeth all publicly reacted to Kellee's boot episode while they were still on the show just as much as Dan, so he could speak if he wanted to.

They apologized for their behavior but kept it to twitter. Dan will have to do more then that. Best to wait until he is booted.

[Ms Blue Jay]

11 hours ago, blackwing said:

I think there's a perception that women and minorities get voted out first but I really don't think that's true.  I think the ones that get voted out first tend to be the weak ones or the overly bossy ones.  I really don't think race has anything to do with it.  That season where there were three Asian women and two of them were the first two boots?  The first woman was definitely voted out because she was incredibly bossy.  Nothing to do with race.  Out of 38 seasons, there have been 8 minority winners, half of whom were women.  1 black woman, 1 Hispanic woman twice, 1 South Asian woman, 3 black men, 1 East Asian man.

If anything, the East Asian female has the worst track record.  It seems to me that Asian females get cast much more often than Asian males, and yet the Asian female rarely has any kind of success.  Many of them are viewed as bossy (So Kim, the aforementioned Rachel), weak, manipulative, forgettable, or crazy/bitchy (Shii Ann).  When was the last time there was a strong East Asian female?

That's kind of the point.  White people view non-whites as having characteristics in the extremes when they're held by non-white people.  All black people become "arrogant", all Asian people become "bossy", etc.  It's a bias that a lot of people have.

Strong East Asian females?  How are Brenda, Kellee, Shii Ann, Becky, Michelle, Peih-Gee, Simone, So, Gabby, Jenny, Lucy, etc. weak?  I wonder why you would perceive them that way?   

Kellee is extremely strong in my opinion, and she's East Asian as your criteria goes.  And that was this season.  Is that recent enough for you?

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[blackwing]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

That's kind of the point.  White people view non-whites as having characteristics in the extremes when they're held by non-white people.  All black people become "arrogant", all Asian people become "bossy", etc.  It's a bias that a lot of people have.

Strong East Asian females?  How are Brenda, Kellee, Shii Ann, Becky, Michelle, Peih-Gee, Simone, So, Gabby, Jenny, Lucy, etc. weak?  I wonder why you would perceive them that way?   

Kellee is extremely strong in my opinion, and she's East Asian as your criteria goes.  And that was this season.  Is that recent enough for you?

I don’t know some of the people you mentioned... but I do think most of the Asian women are portrayed as either bossy, or weak. Not both.  I did like Shii Ann, Becky, Michelle and Peih-Gee.  So was so bossy And controlling she got voted out first.  She was also the one that was proud of the fact that she has made every single assistant of hers cry.  Gabby is the very epitome of weak.  She cried constantly and for most of her game she was in a pair with Christian because she needed protecting. 
 

I really did like Kellee, except she got cocky and arrogant and entered James Clement stupidity territory by going home with two idols.  Her name was thrown around and she still didn’t play one.  
 

Anyways, the whole point was that Missy said that minorities and women get voted out first.  I said that minorities as a whole have a decent track record, having won 8 out of 38 seasons.   But I added that for some reason the Asian female doesn’t seem to have done well much at all.  Out of curiosity, when was the last time an East Asian woman made it to Final Tribal?  Granted, there were a number of seasons I missed, but the last time I remember was Becky in Yul’s season.  

[amazingracefan]

I was reading up on white entitlement/privilege, and there's definitely many questions.  Rather than just pushing it as a concept that has to be accepted I think it should be discussed.  Much better that than using it as a way to push separation and insist all black people are victimized.  That would definitely just inflame matters and actually create the very opposite of what people say they want with it.  I've definitely felt some of this aggression towards me in the past, and some of the roots of it can be people harking back to history than wanting to take control of now.  Negative psychology.  The use of the 'n' word by rappers uses that.

Of course it's true that minorities will not be represented as much as the people in the majority, in the media, in products to buy...  But remember smaller minorities will be catered for even less (for example very short people), as market forces take over.  So I hope that those in larger minorities will see that as well and have sympathy for those.  I also don't believe that all coverage of black people is negative, there are positive role models.  There are also negative representations of some white people.

As with the rather strange concept - to me - of naming generations and saying they all have particular characteristics, I think generalising too much isn't helpful.  It's just a convenient simplification.

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

That's kind of the point.  White people view non-whites as having characteristics in the extremes when they're held by non-white people.  All black people become "arrogant", all Asian people become "bossy", etc.  It's a bias that a lot of people have.

This.

8 hours ago, blackwing said:

I said that minorities as a whole have a decent track record, having won 8 out of 38 seasons. 

Mileage definitely varies because 8 out of 38 is not a decent track record to me.

[fishcakes]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

10 hours ago, blackwing said:

I said that minorities as a whole have a decent track record, having won 8 out of 38 seasons. 

Mileage definitely varies because 8 out of 38 is not a decent track record to me.

It doesn't seem that great to me either, considering that two of those seasons, Fiji and Cook Islands, were seasons in which whites made up only 25% of the cast instead of their usual 80 to 90%, and Sandra is getting counted twice because, while yes, she won twice, returnee seasons are different in that everyone pretty much knows everyone so there's not that instant and usually subconscious attempt to categorize an unknown quantity.

I've said this before, but it's fundamentally wrongheaded to try to point to statistics or say that the number of non-white players is fair based on the overall population of the U.S. when the sample size is this small. Asian Americans are about 7% of the U.S. population, but 7% of 18 people is not representative of 7% of 327 million people. Or Native Americans, for example, which are less than 2% of the U.S. population; if we're going to base Survivor eligibility on a breakdown of the U.S. Census, then Native Americans don't even exist. Survivor is a numbers game and it's a game where the initial instinct is to ensconce yourself in a group that's larger than any other group -- there are any number of random ways to do this, but in a group of strangers, people tend to gravitate toward people who are like themselves and race is one way that people do that. What we've seen throughout the seasons is that when minority players bond, e.g., Sean and Vee, they're "playing the race card" or being clannish. But when white players bond, say, Paschal and Neleh, then it's because they have a natural father-daughter bond and it's a beautiful thing and how dare anyone question it and never mind all the conversations they have about how if one of the two black players wins they'll vomit.

Edited November 27, 2019 by fishcakes

[Trepis]

caught this one last night;  meh, still trying to decide if Im going to stick with this season. I dont like seeing Dan's face :( part of me wants to see him get voted off , but another part of me says who cares. This is just a stupid game show, it wont make a difference in real life. 

I realized last night that even though I have 'hated' players in the past ( the Dan / Will guys ; Reem was absolutely miserable . The Jock assholes who poured water on their fire ) I guess deep down I've always thought these folks could be playing a character and might be different in real life.  That helps me enjoy Survivor, every story needs a villain and it's great when the villain gets their comeuppance

Dan's not the same, everytime I see him on screen and Kellee on the jury it's like a great big reminder about real life. Real life is shitty, real life is unfair , good people in real life get mistreated and bad people get rewarded. Even if he gets crap at the reunion ; the reality is Kellee will likely have to deal with guys like him her entire life, thats shitty 

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I've said this before, but it's fundamentally wrongheaded to try to point to statistics or say that the number of non-white players is fair based on the overall population of the U.S. when the sample size is this small. Asian Americans are about 7% of the U.S. population, but 7% of 18 people is not representative of 7% of 327 million people. Or Native Americans, for example, which are less than 2% of the U.S. population; if we're going to base Survivor eligibility on a breakdown of the U.S. Census, then Native Americans don't even exist. Survivor is a numbers game and it's a game where the initial instinct is to ensconce yourself in a group that's larger than any other group -- there are any number of random ways to do this, but in a group of strangers, people tend to gravitate toward people who are like themselves and race is one way that people do that. What we've seen throughout the seasons is that when minority players bond, e.g., Sean and Vee, they're "playing the race card" or being clannish. But when white players bond, say, Paschal and Neleh, then it's because they have a natural father-daughter bond and it's a beautiful thing and how dare anyone question it and never mind all the conversations they have about how if one of the two black players wins they'll vomit.

Exactly.  When minorities take up only 1 quarter of the cast, as is the case this season, they come into the game with an immediate disadvantage.  People bond with people who remind them of "home", who remind them of people they know and already like, who they actually KNOW (Kellee/Dean), etc. etc.  so being that race bonds people a lot of the time, of course minorities will be disadvantaged with less people in the cast who are like them in that way or could be subconsciously excluded by white players.

There is actually no good reason why white people must make up the majority of the cast 39 seasons in.  There is actually no good argument for it.  There is no reason why Survivor has to "mimic" the "US population" and as fishcakes has already pointed out, it doesn't anyway.  They could do another round of Cook and Fiji and cast 90% minorities again.  They could and they should.  Why the hell not?  We've seen more than enough white players to last us for eternity.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Bryce Lynch]

14 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

That's kind of the point.  White people view non-whites as having characteristics in the extremes when they're held by non-white people.  All black people become "arrogant", all Asian people become "bossy", etc.  It's a bias that a lot of people have.

Strong East Asian females?  How are Brenda, Kellee, Shii Ann, Becky, Michelle, Peih-Gee, Simone, So, Gabby, Jenny, Lucy, etc. weak?  I wonder why you would perceive them that way?   

Kellee is extremely strong in my opinion, and she's East Asian as your criteria goes.  And that was this season.  Is that recent enough for you?

Can you list the humble, unassuming black players who were labeled "arrogant".  Or the unassertive, follower type Asians who have been branded "bossy".  

From what I've seen, most players of all backgrounds who have been pegged as bossy, arrogant, weak, conniving, lazy, hardworking, friendly, or whatever have gotten those tags through their behavior in camp.    

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Can you list the humble, unassuming black players who were labeled "arrogant".  Or the unassertive, follower type Asians who have been branded "bossy".  

From what I've seen, most players of all backgrounds who have been pegged as bossy, arrogant, weak, conniving, lazy, hardworking, friendly, or whatever have gotten those tags through their behavior in camp.    

Davie, last year springs to mind immediately.  

[Bryce Lynch]

22 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Davie, last year springs to mind immediately.  

Who called Davie arrogant?  I remember him being very well liked and he made it to Day 36.

Who else ya got?

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Who called Davie arrogant?  I remember him being very well liked and he made it to Day 36.

Who else ya got?

Yes, he was well liked, and some people called him arrogant. I was so surprised by it that it stuck in my mind. 

blackwing mentions So, Gabby, and Kellee as being bossy/weak/arrogant/cocky just upthread.

The adjectives are examples of the point.  The "arrogant" one comes up every season without fail.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[amazingracefan]

People tend to blame more the casting or even the editors rather than the audience for disliking certain character types that seem put in by the show on a regular basis.  Maybe even more so with Big Brother. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by amazingracefan

[Hanahope]

We also have to remember that the people who go on survivor have to be able to leave their lives, jobs, family for close to 2 months.  Not all that many can do it.

[deirdra]

Why not have a season that is 100% minorities or 100% female and see what happens?  For instance, having a season that is 100% black contestants might help viewers see that the cast doesn't fit one stereotype (unless casting & producers heavy-handedly manipulate the show again).