S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I wish they would've done that ending. I liked what they had happen to everyone. Lol

[iMonrey]

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Since the North is such a fickle bunch, I really wonder how long Sansa's rule will be. The minute they don't like a decision she makes someone else will want to rule the North. 

The North has followed a Stark for centuries. They named a Stark their king even though he was a bastard. I don't think Sansa will have anyone challenge her. Problem is, even if she has children, they won't be Starks. They will either be bastards if she doesn't marry or they will take their father's name. I don't think they've started using hyphenated surnames in Westeros yet. Maybe they would be Starks the same way Queen Elizabeth's children are Windsors instead of Mountbattens but that also seems like a modern concept for Westeros.

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Does this mean Pod is supposed to be celibate?

I'm not sure the Kingsguard has to be celibate, or that they pay much attention to that rule if they are. They just aren't supposed to marry or have children or property. And Bran can easily change that law.

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It really is beyond belief that Greyworm has control of the city at the point that Jon kills Dany, and that what he does is put him in jail for several weeks so that people he's never met and knows and cares nothing about can come and he can ask them for the right to kill Jon.

We don't know how this went down, that's the problem. Don't forget Jon had all of the Northmen with him too. It isn't just the Unsullied. Who did he confess to, and how did it come about, etc.? That's a pretty crucial scene to omit. There might have been a power struggle with Greyworm demanding the Northmen hand Jon over and the Northmen demanding he not be executed. There might have been a big bloody battle between the Northmen and the Unsullied over it. We just don't know.

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Was Jon supposed to create a New Watch or was Bran/Sansa's actual plan to release Jon to the North of the Wall ? 

This was really the part I didn't get, at all. There just isn't any reason to have a Night's Watch as far as I can tell. Are the people or Westeros still adamant that the Wildlings stay north of the Wall? Tormund and the rest wanted to go back, but why? Wouldn't you rather live somewhere warmer if you could? If there is a Nights Watch and Jon has to be in it, what did it mean to see him riding north with the Wildlings? Is he going with them permanently? Is that a violation of his sentence, or not if he remains true to his NW vows? 

Honestly, I just think the show wanted to circle back to a visual that the show began with nine years ago. If the writers really understood Jon's fate they didn't explain it very well.

[millennium]

44 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Well they actually righted the wrong by doing an episode-within-an-episode several years ago where the Seinfeld cast did a reunion episode within the Larry David Show.  And aside from being very well done, it pretty much supplanted the original Seinfeld finale as the finale.  So I would just watch that episode.

So lesson learned for GoT....just do an episode of Larry David where the cast reunites for a do-over of the season 8 finale!

I will go to my grave defending the original Seinfeld finale as 100% in keeping with the tone and absurdity of the show.   Game of Thrones, on the other hand, is the new Dexter.

Edited May 20, 2019 by millennium

[Traveller519]

The Iron Throne turned out to be the one true villain do the show. And it got one of the best death scenes.

[lmsweb]

Phew, finally caught up on this thread. I'm not going to try and quote everyone, since there were numerous similar posts, but I want to comment on a few things here:

Jon being "sentenced" to the NW - back in season 7, Tormund made the comment "I guess we're the Night's Watch now" when Jon asked him to take some of his wildlings north to the Wall to watch for the AotD, since there were basically no men left in the Watch. So being sentenced to the NW was essentially them sending Jon back to join the Wildlings anyway.

Bran being a "boring storyteller" - I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Bran isn't a storyteller, per se. He IS the complete unabridged Encyclopedia Brittanica of Westeros history though. He will literally serve to be the cautionary reminder of all the horrors that those seeking power have inflicted on people over the centuries. I'm pretty sure Tyrion wasn't referring to Bran's ability to tell a rip roaring fireside story over some ale. 

Bran being able to circumvent all the terrible things that happened - no. We see this in almost every movie/TV/book where time traveling of a sort occurs. Bran is a witness to history, nothing more. Even Jon telling Arya and Sansa about being a Targ - Jon specifically looked at Bran for guidance on this and Bran told him "it's your choice". Attempting to change the course of history can ultimately lead to worse things happening. And Bran's future-seeing abilities, at least as demonstrated on the show, have involved glimpses of things, not long specific drawn out detailed scenes.

Sansa - I'm going to address this here, although I've seen it brought up in so many episode threads before. I see people raging at how she told the Hound that everything she went through shaped her into who she is today. As a member of the #MeToo group - this is so dead on point. OF COURSE being raped or sexually abused is going to change you. For some people, it breaks them for a while. For others, they grow past it. Everyone deals with it differently but the bottom line is that you can't NOT be changed by it. I honest to God feel a little flash of rage every time I see someone gripe and bitch about the writer's using rape to forward a woman's storyline. I cannot emphasize this enough - the percentage of women who have had their stories "changed" in the real world because of this is staggering. Seeing a woman on screen overcome this and go on to become a strong, independent woman gets a fist pump from me every single time.

Dany getting stabbed in the heart - well, Jon of all people would know the exact place and angle to stab the heart, so, I have no problems with how he did it.

On a side note - the scene where Dany is addressing her crowd and the Dothraki are wheeling around and almost running into each other on horseback made me laugh. It looked like literally every single warm up arena at every horse show I've ever gone to. Especially barrel racing.

I NEED TO KNOW IF THAT WAS HOWLAND REED SITTING BETWEEN SAM AND EDMURE. D&D better come online long enough to answer this.

[Taget]

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The other cities were going to capitulate anyway because Dany had a weapon of mass destruction and they didn't. Not to mention that there were no large armies left to oppose her rule anyway. There was no need whatsoever to kill any civilians in King's Landing if the point was to cow other cities into submission. Genghis Khan and other real life conquerors did it because they didn't have dragons who make fortifications and armies useless. Destroying all the Lannister forces in a few minutes would have done the trick. But the writers seemed so enamored with making Dany look Hitler that even someone like me who is not a fan of her at all was left with the impression that she was character assassinated.

Looking at the historical Genghis Khan and the Mongols is good place to start.  After a few rebellions the policy of the Mongols was they would not accept the surrender of a city unless the rulers agreed that not only themselves would be painfully executed but their entire families along with all the nobility.  There is a record of the negotiations between the Crusader states and the Ilhante (the division of the Mongols that ruled the Middle East) who were allies at the time.  The Christians asked if the rumors were true that 500,000 people were put to the sword in Baghdad.  They replied.  Nah.  They just put that number out for the shock value.  They only killed 300,000.

People do forget just how awful the Mongol horde really was.  The population of Iran only regained it's pre-Mongol invasion population in the 20th century.  That the Dothraki are based on them shows how strange it is no one is at all paying attention to them.

While the Mongols luckily were exceptional in their brutality putting people to the sword (killing every man, woman, and child) it was done by others historically including in Europe (for an awful display of it see the Albigensian crusades in southern France).  This practice was also done repeatedly in the world of the show and has been seen on-screen.  The Ironborn burned down and put the population of Winterfell to the sword before they pulled out.  The entire basis of the song the "Reynes of Casamere" is that the Lannisters refused to accept any surrender from the Reynes and put to the sword not only their entire family but the population of Castamere.  This was to send a message to the Lords of the Westerlands to serve and obey the Lannisters unconditionally.  It worked and was considered an exemplary display of statecraft by the Lannisters.

We saw a number of times on the show the Lannister policy of when they conquered a village, town, or city in the Riverlands to methodically slaughter any of the population they could get their hands on leaving ghost towns.  This was something Tyrion was well aware of when he proudly fought with his father he knew the consequences for the local population and really could care less.

Dany making an example of Kings Landing was not out of the ordinary for her place and time.   And again is no different than what Aegon did with Harrenhal (the King's Landing of it's time) when they originally conquered Westeros.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Taget

[markx]

It was a nice minor twist to avoid the obvious ending of Jon Snow ruling, but there seemed something a bit contrived about them having to choose someone who wasn't Jon Snow - yes the arguments put forward seemed reasonable, but part of me would have rather he just chose to go up north on his own accord, and then left the rest to choose and lead (which would have been entirely in character). Found a use for the chocolate teapot though.

Given how Jon was able to kill Daenerys without guards around, who's to say he couldn't have escaped? How did they even know, Drogon got rid of the body...

It felt a shame to have Grey Worm and the Unsullied cast as the bad guys. I didn't object to how Daenerys was portrayed last episode and yes Grey Worm was loyal to his queen. It's also realistic that allies can fall out (e.g. the cold war). But the episode very much seemed to portray them as the bad guys, when the Unsullied settling in new lands and finding new lives after a life of war is just as much an interesting future as the endings of the other characters.

What does the Nights Watch do now that there's peace with the wildlings, and the Night King is dead?

Sea Captain Arya, where did that come from? I mean, clearly she was going to have adventures and not settle down, but that in particular seemed out of the blue. And also again odd that they felt the need to have a contrived explanation for Jon Snow's ending (even though it would have been in character for him to go back to the wall), but nothing to explain Arya.

[millennium]

I wasn't as impressed as the critics by the scene where Drogon spreads  his wings as Dany is walking towards the camera, making it appear Dany has dragon wings.   It felt forced and corny.   Reminded me of that cringe scene in Tim Burton's Batman where the Batplane flies upwards in the night sky until it's silhouette is perfectly centered on the disk of the full moon and then stops in midair so it looks like the Batsignal.   Ugh.

[Argenta]

I'm quite gratified to see the dislike for Bronn here. No disrespect to Jerome's performance, but I detest Bronn. He's obnoxious and arrogant and crude in a really distasteful, off putting way and should NEVER have been handed a seat on the council. He's totally untrustworthy. His going on about brothels was probably meant to be funny but it just grated. I hope he dies of a nasty venereal disease. 

I also thought I'd never dislike Grey Worm, but he seemed to turn vindictive and cruel right when Dany did. 

And Sansa has become completely unlikable.

[catrice2]

And Sansa talking about the Northern men being ready to fight....the same ones who needed the Unsullied and Dothraki to fight the White Walkers, and who watched them sacrificed themselves, first out with Jorah and then protecting the retreat.  Not to mention they also participated in the violence in the city...but now of course it is all the minorities' fault and they are just being honorable and ready to stand against the savages....

[kieyra]

Yeah, it’s hard to believe Bronn was the one shooting the iconic arrow to light the wildfire way back at Blackwater.

I know this argument will now carry on basically forever, but I think Sansa has fully earned the right not to be a smiling, maternal, agreeable, sweet, supportive lady-princess. Because fuck that shit. 

[catrice2]

5 minutes ago, Argenta said:

I'm quite gratified to see the dislike for Bronn here. No disrespect to Jerome's performance, but I detest Bronn. He's obnoxious and arrogant and crude in a really distasteful, off putting way and should NEVER have been handed a seat on the council. He's totally untrustworthy. His going on about brothels was probably meant to be funny but it just grated. I hope he dies of a nasty venereal disease. 

I also thought I'd never dislike Grey Worm, but he seemed to turn vindictive and cruel right when Dany did. 

And Sansa has become completely unlikable.

Greyworm was traumatized and suffering PTSD...he was also grieving.   He had clearly snapped.   Apparently according the writers Dany was always cruel and crazy. Greyworm has always just followed orders.  I hear you.....he used the fact that she was giving orders to justify what he was doing...but at the end of the day he was a trained killer. 

Of course Arya gets praise for being a trained killer ruthlessly killing people who wronged her..  under orders to no one.....the Unsullied not so much. even though they are following orders

[Dobian]

22 minutes ago, Taget said:

People do forget just how awful the Mongol horde really was.  The population of Iran only regained it's pre-Mongol invasion population in the 20th century.  That the Dothraki are based on them shows how strange it is no one is at all paying attention to them.

Well they haven't done anything yet.  Wait until they sack Riverrun and rename it Al Drogo, then people will start paying attention to them.

[Sparger Springs]

14 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

I'm pretty sure that in that first season after Bran falls either Robb or Ned or someone laments how now Bran will never be able to be married or father children, so I think EVERYONE knew and it wasn't a secret.

I think they just assumed he couldn't have kids.  They didn't acutally know.

[lmsweb]

That reminds me - I've seen a lot of posts saying Sansa can't have kids either. They made it pretty clear just before she escaped with Theon that Ramsay was being careful not to do anything to her that would prevent her with providing him with an heir in her conversation with Myranda:

"Dying? Who said anything about dying? You can't die. Your father was Warden of the North, and Ramsay needs you. But I suppose he doesn't need all of you. Just the parts he needs to make his heir, until you've given him a boy or two and he's finished using them. Then, he's got incredible plans for those parts. So, shall we wait for him to come back, or should we begin now? You're leaving it to me? Good. Let's begin."

[call me ishmael]

40 minutes ago, mdwh said:

Sea Captain Arya, where did that come from? I mean, clearly she was going to have adventures and not settle down, but that in particular seemed out of the blue. And also again odd that they felt the need to have a contrived explanation for Jon Snow's ending (even though it would have been in character for him to go back to the wall), but nothing to explain Arya.

I assumed that was a callback to when she first fled by ship and was terrified looking out at her future.  Now she isn't sneaking away to save her life but heading out with her own ship under her own flag.

[mxc90]

19 hours ago, rmontro said:

When they were saying "All hail Bran the Broken" or whatever it was, I kept expecting Bran to say:  "Can you call me something else?".

When the brothels are back in business, he better get use to hearing a lot of "Bran Muffin".

I'm sure someone from the crowd will heckle him during an important speech and call him "Raven Bran".

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, she only starting "liberating" by burning alive in the next to last episode.  Prior to that, she just liberated people by liberating them. 

Liberating and forgetting about them and then sending Daario Naharis and some Second Sons to re-liberate them when they fell back into slavery as she had to do in Yunkai and Astapor. She's been a great conqueror, but crap ruler for a long time.

Edited May 21, 2019 by HunterHunted

[Affogato]

53 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The North has followed a Stark for centuries. They named a Stark their king even though he was a bastard. I don't think Sansa will have anyone challenge her. Problem is, even if she has children, they won't be Starks. They will either be bastards if she doesn't marry or they will take their father's name. I don't think they've started using hyphenated surnames in Westeros yet. Maybe they would be Starks the same way Queen Elizabeth's children are Windsors instead of Mountbattens but that also seems like a modern concept for Westeros.

I’m pretty sure that they would take her name to save the line. And there is decree of monarch. 

I don’t think taking the name of higher rank is modern, Though. 

[markx]

I'm tired of seeing people tell me there were all these "signs" Dany was going to go mad. Mostly in the recent seasons I saw people wondering about her parentage, and coin-flipping, but those aren't her actions being judged, it's her DNA. Which is really uncool.

I was judging and criticising her actions last season, and not about her parentage or coin-flipping (and I don't think she went mad - that's a viewpoint from the people who see it as a sudden flip). Evidently people disagree over how we view her - but people did make these earlier criticisms at the time.

I was tired of people previously coming up with all sorts of justifications for burning people to death last season 🙂

Bran  is now actually evil. That's why he had no emotion in saying goodbye to Meera, or seeing Hodor die.

No emotion in saying goodbye, burning someone to death for not being the knee, you never know what Bran will do next.

He didn't warn anyone about the coming annihilation of KL -- he actually warged into Drogon to make it happen, which is why we don't see Dany after the chaos and destruction start.

If it was true, that would be valid criticism. But it's speculation of what happened; the commentary of Dany in earlier seasons doesn't rely on speculation of what happened (rather different people interpret the events differently).

Dany is not the only character after the Iron Throne who showed a mixture of good and evil (in fact I think they were all, except for the ones that were just plain evil). The thing I loved about Game of Thrones was that most characters had this mixture of good and evil - rather than going down the path of good vs evil.
 

Edited May 21, 2019 by mdwh

[Conotocarious]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

We don't know how this went down, that's the problem. Don't forget Jon had all of the Northmen with him too. It isn't just the Unsullied. Who did he confess to, and how did it come about, etc.? That's a pretty crucial scene to omit. There might have been a power struggle with Greyworm demanding the Northmen hand Jon over and the Northmen demanding he not be executed. There might have been a big bloody battle between the Northmen and the Unsullied over it. We just don't know.

Well, clearly, the priority was to have a crucial scene of Tyrion arranging furniture .

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

I wasn't as impressed as the critics by the scene where Drogon spreads  his wings as Dany is walking towards the camera, making it appear Dany has dragon wings.   It felt forced and corny.   

Me neither. I thought it was cheesy.

Edited May 21, 2019 by BitterApple

[catrice2]

So now we know what Bran and Tyrion were talking about during the Long Night...as well as Sansa and Tyrion. 

I totally think this was planned...or Tyrion got some idea. I am not convinced that Dany was not being drugged with mind altering drugs.  She was so busy watching Varys that they were not watching Tyrion closely. 

Tyrion got rid of Varys, and it is not coincidental that he is the brains behind Bran's straw king, and Sansa is the Queen with what she wanted all along. 

He knew Jon was weak and easily manipulated and he was already having doubts about Dany.

Dany was stupid anyway to ever trust him. He had an emotional connection to Kings Landing ,with or without his brother and sister still being there. It was where he grew up, had memories, now way he was going to do anything really against the city. 

I still have not bothered to listen to whatever conversation he and Jon had.  In the short time I've watched this show  I have not been impressed with Peter Dinklage and his endless droning on was actually a turn off for me. 

[Drogo]

54 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Wait until they sack Riverrun and rename it Al Drogo

[BitterApple]

1 minute ago, catrice2 said:

Dany was stupid anyway to ever trust him. He had an emotional connection to Kings Landing ,with or without his brother and sister still being there. It was where he grew up, had memories, now way he was going to do anything really against the city. 

This x a million. At the end of the day, your family is your family, no matter how shitty they are. Tyrion balked every step of the way when it was clear moves Dany wanted to make were a direct threat to Jaime and Cersei. Hell, for as much of a nasty bitch as Cersei was, even she couldn't bring herself to murder Tyrion when she had the opportunity. There's no way he'd ever be completely in Dany's corner. 

[markx]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

The GOT finale showed that the series that was supposed to be about something was in fact about nothing.  It was just a eight year bloody detour before the surviving Starks got the lives they wanted in the pilot.  And Westeros has another disinterested King and another ruling council.  And they are talking about all the same stupid shit they did before this all started and haven't learned a thing.

This wasn't the ending I wanted after an eight year viewing investment.  But had it been executed better, I probably could have gotten behind it as a finale as having a POV and something to say.

Well, the story was about the war for the Iron Throne. That story was told, came to and end; I don't think the resolution means that things have to become completely different - maybe there be another war when Bran dies in the future, but that'll be a different story. Some things changed (the new way of appointing a ruler), some things stay the same. Some characters grew (Arya, Sam), other characters went full circle (Jamie). And then there's the whole other story of the Night King, which came to a clear end.

As a more general question to people - what ending did you want to see (either this episode, or the season as a whole)?

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Taget said:

We saw a number of times on the show the Lannister policy of when they conquered a village, town, or city in the Riverlands to methodically slaughter any of the population they could get their hands on leaving ghost towns.  This was something Tyrion was well aware of when he proudly fought with his father he knew the consequences for the local population and really could care less.

Dany making an example of Kings Landing was not out of the ordinary for her place and time.   And again is no different than what Aegon did with Harrenhal (the King's Landing of it's time) when they originally conquered Westeros.

IIRC, Aegon burned a castle, not a city but I could be wrong. 

All other examples you have given, from history or from the show, while horrible, follow cold military logic. Sacking a town which refuses to surrender helps convince other towns to surrender. Burning and looting farms and villages takes resources away from the enemy. If Genghis Khan or Tywin Lannister had the option of obliterating the enemy army in five minutes like Dany did, they would have done so, instead of bothering with protracted campaigns of terror. Not out of the goodness of their hearts, of course, but because it's far more cost effective.

I for one cannot think of a ruler who put the population of his own capital to the sword after winning the civil war. There must be some but they were probably regarded as mad men. Dany killing her own future tax payers by the hundred thousands for no reason was bound to elicit the exact same reaction we saw - that she is off her rocker. A conqueror doesn't need a reign of terror if he or she can destroy enemy armies as easily as a human can kill an ant. The Mongols used excessive brutality because despite the legends, they weren't actually invincible and sieges were long and costly. This was not a factor for Dany, so a story which could have had lots of moral ambiguity became a simplistic, rushed and boring tale of the rise and fall of the Third Reich: Westeros.

[GraceK]

2 hours ago, Beachdreamer said:

It really is beyond belief that Greyworm has control of the city at the point that Jon kills Dany, and that what he does is put him in jail for several weeks so that people he's never met and knows and cares nothing about can come and he can ask them for the right to kill Jon.

I'm really hung up on the absurdity of that.  I like Jon, but based on the way the story was playing out, I think it was his time to die.

That doesn’t make sense at all.  Either does the fact of Tyrion choosing a King while a prisoner at his own trial. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️ The plot armor is ridiculous. And where did the Dothraki mysteriously go? We see them at the docks, but they have no interest in avenging their Khaleesi? And Drogon not killing Jon is also bull, since the Dance of the Dragons and Targaryen history shows that Dragons don’t care If your related,  it’s their master they are bonded too. Jon being a Targaryen should make no difference since he killed his mother. And Greyworm, having lost Missendai already should have no problem killing Jon where he stood. LAME LAME LAME. 

But whatever. I’m resigned.

[Growsonwalls]

I'm a Sansa fan but I am often surprised when I see Sophie Turner's interviews in real life. I realize it's acting but she definitely played Sansa as very hard and brittle whereas in real life Sophie Turner is very fun and funny. Usually on a long TV show you can see where the actor's real life mannerisms start to seep into the character. Like on Friends I once saw an interview with Matthew Perry and he had the same mannerisms as Chandler. Not the personality, but the vocal inflections and mannerisms. But with Sophie Turner I don;t see the mannerisms of the real actress seeping into Sansa. 

As a contrast Emilia Clarke in real life has short brown hair and looks very different from Dany. But when you hear her talk you can kind of hear Dany's voice speaking. 

ETA: Sansa and Tyrion are legally still married. So if Sansa ever changes her mind ...

Edited May 21, 2019 by Growsonwalls

[RoberTee]

I'm just gonna pretend this was the last episode:

"Seeing his Mother dead, Drogon goes on a grieving rage and burns the Throne Room, Jon included. The Iron Throne melts. Suddenly, through the fire, comes Jon Snow, aka Aegon Targaryen, naked (mirroring Daenerys at the end of season 1, reborn from the flames). Drogon, knows "fire cannot kill dragon" so he turns his back on Naked Jon/Aegon, takes Daenerys body and flies away. As he leaves, we see Grey Worm at the door, who just realized what happened. Grey Worm and Naked Jon/Aegon have an epic fight amongst the flames in the Throne Room, and Naked Jon/Aegon ends up killing him, not without giving him a chance to surrender first. A bleeding Naked Jon/Aegon leaves the Throne Room and is assisted by Davos. "What have you done?!", he shouts. Naked Jon/Aegon asks for Arya. She arrives. "I was brought back for a reason... And now my watch has ended." Naked Jon/Aegon dies in Arya's arm, who cries over her brother's body. This scene is intercut with scenes of Ghost, still in Winterfell, howling. Cut to Bran, in the Godswood, hearing Ghost and realizing what happened. He's emotionless. Cut to Sansa, in the Great Hall, sheding a single tear. Cut to the Godswood again but now Bran's chair is empty. The camera lingers on the Old Tree, suggesting that now that the world is safe at last, he officially became the Three Eyed Raven and merged with the tree. Cut again to Arya holding Dead Naked Jon/Aegon, and then Drogon crossing the Narrow Sea, with Daenerys, arriving to Essos." Some time later Tyrion assembles a Council Meeting to decide who will rule the Seven Kingdoms. Since the last Targaryen are dead, so should the Seven Kingdoms, which were united by the Aegon the Conqueror. So it's fit to break them apart after the death of the last Aegon Targaryen. The North will be ruled by Sansa Stark; the Iron Islands will be ruled by Yara Greyjoy; The Westerlands will be ruled by Tyrion Lannister; The Reach will be ruled by Samwell Tarly; the Stormlands will be ruled by Gendry Baratheon; Dorne will be ruled by whomever is there already; and Dragonstone will be given to Davos Seaworth. Arya sails west anyway. Brienne becomes Queensguard to Sansa. The show ends with a raven (is it Bran?) flying over Westeros, watching each Kingdom try to rebuild itself after the horrors of the war. The raven then goes beyond the wall, we see the wildings, Tormund, Ghost... The raven keeps flying north, where there's pretty much nothing more than darkness. As the screen starts fading to black, we see two blue eyes. THE END."

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

I still am a bit stunned over how Jon’s Targ parentage meant basically nothing.

It meant something.  It's the reason he is still alive and not fried to a crisp by Drogon.  Drogon knew that Jon was a Targ. I don't see anybody else who might have killed Dany and survived facing the dragon.

[GraceK]

9 minutes ago, magdalene said:

It meant something.  It's the reason he is still alive and not fried to a crisp by Drogon.  Drogon knew that Jon was a Targ. I don't see anybody else who might have killed Dany and survived facing the dragon.

That doesn’t mean anything though. Targaryens have been killed by dragons. Dance of the Dragons??? Targaryens fought each other with their own dragons and killed each other. The fact that Jon is a Targ means absolutely nothing when it comes to Drogon when he killed his mother. It meant something in riding Rhaegal, because he didn’t have a rider, and it meant Drogon was predisposed to like and trust him. That’s it. It really makes me sick to hear people who were convinced that Jon was gonna “ steal” Drogon from Dany, or make Drogon kill her, or that after he kills her Drogon will be loyal to him now . That is so reprehensible to me. I’m sure if my husband kills me in front of my son , my son will totally high five my husband and remain loyal to him forever 🙄

Edited May 21, 2019 by GraceK

[Brn2bwild]

4 minutes ago, magdalene said:

It meant something.  It's the reason he is still alive and not fried to a crisp by Drogon.  Drogon knew that Jon was a Targ. I don't see anybody else who might have killed Dany and survived facing the dragon.

What really didn't mean anything was Dany finding out that Jon came back from the dead.  In Season 7, he tried to keep that a secret, yet in Season 8 it was mentioned and *shrug*.

[Wulfsige]

2 hours ago, kieyra said:

Yeah, it’s hard to believe Bronn was the one shooting the iconic arrow to light the wildfire way back at Blackwater.

I know this argument will now carry on basically forever, but I think Sansa has fully earned the right not to be a smiling, maternal, agreeable, sweet, supportive lady-princess. Because fuck that shit. 

Yes. Thank you. A million times. It boggles my mind that the viewers who are griping about the show not presenting women in a strong enough light are the same viewers griping that Sansa's 'not smiling', or always has a 'bitch face'. Yeeessss. Because there's nothing more important than having a pretty smile on your face, no matter what you're going through. Gotta smile nice for the boys, and be sweet and agreeable, a woman's only purpose on earth is to make the boys feel good about themselves. As you say, fuck that shit. (I have issues with being told to 'smile'. Did you guess?) 

[TaurusRose]

5 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yeah.  She was the kind of leader who freed you from slavery but in turn she expected your blind loyalty forever (or else dragon fire!!!)

The end to Daenerys's journey was not what I expected, and yes, there were missteps in how she was sometimes portrayed (the whole Mhysa thing), but I loved the character.  She was bad ass and fierce.  She had a fabulous wardrobe and awesome children.  So, yes, she is still one of my favorites.  It would have been nice if Jon could have overcome the "she's my aunt thing."  (Yeah,  it's incest, but so was Jaime and Cersei and they were a helluva lot closer than Jon and Dany.  Besides, it's fiction, so I can roll with it.) It would have been nice if they could have really been fire and ice ruling together, but I accept what went down.  I have no choice.  

2 hours ago, Argenta said:

I'm quite gratified to see the dislike for Bronn here. No disrespect to Jerome's performance, but I detest Bronn. He's obnoxious and arrogant and crude in a really distasteful, off putting way and should NEVER have been handed a seat on the council. He's totally untrustworthy. His going on about brothels was probably meant to be funny but it just grated. I hope he dies of a nasty venereal disease. 

I also thought I'd never dislike Grey Worm, but he seemed to turn vindictive and cruel right when Dany did. 

And Sansa has become completely unlikable.

You have said everything I wanted to say about Bronn.  Regarding Sansa...she "became completely unlikable?"   I've always found her unlikable.  She was a liar and a sneak right up to the end.  

I think this is going to be my last post in this thread.  Game of Thrones may have had its problems, but it was still the most entertaining work of fantasy I've seen since Lord of the Rings.  It was beautiful to look at, beautifully acted and beautifully scored. My hat is off to the cast, crew, designers, make up artists, and everyone else behind this series.  I'm sorry some people are so upset about Season 8 and the finale.  I'm gonna just stay in my happy place and move on to the next "new" thing.   Oh, one more thing.  I've ragged on Sansa for 8 seasons, but Sophie Turner seems to be a lovely person.  I hope everyone in the cast (especially the young-uns) continue to work and grow in their craft, but even if they don't they're pretty much set for life, so I guess it's all good.  Valar Morghulis.

Edited May 21, 2019 by taurusrose

[Stardancer Supreme]

Upon rewatch, Tyrion was the only person punished for his shortcomings. Bran chose him as his Hand to "fix what you messed up".  Watching him fix the Small Council chairs made me cackle a bit. 

[Friendly kitty]

Finally, I set aside time to write briefly about the series.

The most magnificent finals at Arya. I would have looked about her separate continuation. About travel, wanderings, adventures ... Maybe she would have found a dragon some or other mythical creature!

And the Dragon story was very powerful. His pain, despair and sadness was felt from the screens. The most emotional character of the show. And then he took his mother and flew away ... Bravo!

And for John glad. He will be fine there in the Watch. He is loved, respected, and valued there. And the fact that you can not get married, so it is not a problem. And it was impossible before, but with Igritt, love was ...

But the fact that Bran - the king, this is crazy nonsense. Absolutely illogical and strange moment. And most importantly, he said so joyfully that he was going to this ... Well, of course, he saw it already in visions. Why then did not see that Dany will burn everyone? Why not warned and did not prevent the destruction of the city?

Edited May 21, 2019 by Friendly kitty

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

Yes and I was SO glad when she didn't.

Did Brienne know Kingslayer died (trying to) protecting his queen or did she think she was making it up to make him look good?

12 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

I'm a little perplexed by Brienne's comment about Jamie dying protecting his queen. Was she referring to Cersei or to Dany in a roundabout way?

She meant Cersei and she knew he was protecting her. He told Brienne that's why he was going back to KL.

9 hours ago, Drogo said:

Hard disagree.  She has always held Jon's opinions in high regard, and...

He was screaming at and chastising her moments before she said it and she didn't threaten or silence him.  She spoke to him as an equal partner. 

7 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

He wasn't screaming, although I'll agree with the chastising bit.  But her opinion would be the ultimate one, and eventually he'd disagree with something.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because she sounded like an absolute tyrant to me.

Me too. She didn't threaten or silence him because she was convinced he would agree with her. She just saw herself as so right and such a visionary that he just needed a minute to be proud to be at her side. In her mind she was a messiah and he was a mortal who couldn't see the beauty of what she was doing yet, but of course he would. If he continued being a pill? Of course he'd be silenced. But in this moment she couldn't imagine this was a serious conflict. If she saw him as an equal it was because she was seeing him as an extension of herself.

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The North has followed a Stark for centuries. They named a Stark their king even though he was a bastard. I don't think Sansa will have anyone challenge her. Problem is, even if she has children, they won't be Starks. They will either be bastards if she doesn't marry or they will take their father's name. I don't think they've started using hyphenated surnames in Westeros yet. Maybe they would be Starks the same way Queen Elizabeth's children are Windsors instead of Mountbattens but that also seems like a modern concept for Westeros.

I assume that Sansa could easily just say her husband had to take her name along with the kids. Just as Jon told Arya nobody was going to tell her she couldn't visit him at Castle Black as a girl, Sansa would be ready to make that change in the North and plenty of guys would probably be happy to go along with it. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't some lords that did that if they only had daughters.

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, mdwh said:

Well, the story was about the war for the Iron Throne. That story was told, came to and end; I don't think the resolution means that things have to become completely different - maybe there be another war when Bran dies in the future, but that'll be a different story. Some things changed (the new way of appointing a ruler), some things stay the same. Some characters grew (Arya, Sam), other characters went full circle (Jamie). And then there's the whole other story of the Night King, which came to a clear end.

As a more general question to people - what ending did you want to see (either this episode, or the season as a whole)?

I would like to have seen the fact of Jon being a Targaryen mean something. The mystery of  Jon Snow was the underlying theme throughout the show and it seemed to be an all-important fact. Yet there was no climax to it at the end of the story. 1) He was brought into the world by Rhaegar and Lyanna, (seemed so important, that there must have been a reason the kind and much loved Rhaegar went as far as to annul his marriage humiliating his wife, and abandon his children - but nope, turns out he was just an asshole cheater satisfying his own lustful desires);  2) He was protected by Ned, to the point it affected Ned's marriage (or at least Catelyn's happiness) and shamed his prized honour by his pretending to have committed adultery; 3) He was even brought back from the dead (what was the point of that if he was just going to end up back at the Night's Watch?).  As things panned out, there was no reason for him to be Aegon Targaryen. He could have done everything he did as Jon Snow.

[sistermagpie]

Oh, one other thing is I think the kingdoms mostly got really good leaders, just not romantic ones. I'd want Tyrion or Sansa as a monarch for the thing Sansa often got criticized for--like constantly asking how they were going to feed everyone. Tyrion will totally get to work rebuilding ports etc. Sure it would have been better if the show didn't run out of GRRM plots so Tyrion got stupid, but while he was never written as a good right hand of the conqueror he'll probably be a great administrator putting people to work rebuilding. Let the war heroes stay war heroes.

[GustavMahler]

What truly confounds me is that we spent years/seasons watching Danys rise to power with all the minutia and detail only to have her dispatched in twenty minutes once she acheived her objective 

[MrsR]

8 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I would like to have seen the fact of Jon being a Targaryen mean something. The mystery of  Jon Snow was the underlying theme throughout the show and it seemed to be an all-important fact. Yet there was no climax to it at the end of the story

It's purpose was to reveal that Robert's Rebellion was based on an untruth. And his parentage would have been a constant threat to Dany's dream.

But he was not Aegon Targaryan, he was always Jon Snow, the young man who went beyond the wall, fell in love with a wilding girl kissed by fire and he should never have left that cave.

[Bannon]

8 hours ago, mdwh said:

Well, the story was about the war for the Iron Throne. That story was told, came to and end; I don't think the resolution means that things have to become completely different - maybe there be another war when Bran dies in the future, but that'll be a different story. Some things changed (the new way of appointing a ruler), some things stay the same. Some characters grew (Arya, Sam), other characters went full circle (Jamie). And then there's the whole other story of the Night King, which came to a clear end.

As a more general question to people - what ending did you want to see (either this episode, or the season as a whole)?

It is not the broad strokes of the ending which are problematic, but rather the manner with which we arrived there. The idea of an ascending Targeryian heir with dragons becoming increasingly brutal and utopian, and thus coming into conflict with other anti-Cersei leaders is inherently interesting. There is nothing inherently wrong with that Targeyrian heir being assassinated by another anti-Cersei leader, even one who has become her lover. What you can't do, however, is turn major characters into either utter morons, or make them completely psychologically opaque, so you can get the plot outcomes you desire. It's just wholly incompetent and/or lazy writing, and makes it impossible for me to enjoy it.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Bannon
typo

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

She meant Cersei and she knew he was protecting her. He told Brienne that's why he was going back to KL.

Me too. She didn't threaten or silence him because she was convinced he would agree with her. She just saw herself as so right and such a visionary that he just needed a minute to be proud to be at her side. In her mind she was a messiah and he was a mortal who couldn't see the beauty of what she was doing yet, but of course he would. If he continued being a pill? Of course he'd be silenced. But in this moment she couldn't imagine this was a serious conflict. If she saw him as an equal it was because she was seeing him as an extension of herself.

I assume that Sansa could easily just say her husband had to take her name along with the kids. Just as Jon told Arya nobody was going to tell her she couldn't visit him at Castle Black as a girl, Sansa would be ready to make that change in the North and plenty of guys would probably be happy to go along with it. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't some lords that did that if they only had daughters.

I think the biggest threat to the north is going to be the next ruler who decides they'd like the north back in the fold.  It'll be six kingdoms vs. the north.

But I don't know, do three eye Ravens die a natural death?  When does bran start the search for the next 3ER?  Is it like an American idol style search?   Will he take off time from being king?

I also think RE brans stories.  It's great that he has them, but they would make him a better advisor to a king or queen.  To look back in history and see the specifics of a similar situation and how it played out, etc etc.  I don't think brans personal story is more compelling than a woman who survived house Bolton and fought her way back....or a guy who came back from the dead.

[Cheezwiz]

7 hours ago, byrd said:

I felt the same way also, when Dragon looked at him, I want to believe he realized this throne was the reason for Dani's death and that it had to be done. Dani had gone a little mad anyway in my opinion.  My imagination wonders what he did with her body, did he bury her or did he drop her in the ocean , or did he just lay her down and he died beside her.

I think he may have flown back to Valerya with her body. Perhaps he cremated her or buried her. I like to think Drogon is flapping around Valerya with his own kind now.

[MJ Frog]

There was the potential here for a brilliant inversion, an audience fake out that I could have totally gotten behind. One where the good guy who has caused us to cheer and fist pump turns out not to be so good, and we are left to maybe examine how what we want to be true influences, or even obscures, how we perceive what is true. For a story whose raison d'etre seemed to be defying fantasy tropes, that would have been a good final twist. Would have been, being the operative term.

Game of Thrones is all about power, what people will do to get it, and what it does to them once they have it (Tolkien would have fully recognize and approved of these themes). And the fact is that no matter how good our intentions, or how good the cause, we are still not immune to power’s corrupting influence. Power and self-righteousness are a heady and often dangerous mix, as the Sparrows demonstrated. It can lead to thinking the ends justify the means: we are in the right, therefore what we do is right. Sacrifice the child to win the war. Destroy the village to save it. Every revolution, every form of zealotry, really, is susceptible to these perils.

I know everyone hates Tyrion, especially when he opens his mouth, but I love his speech to Jon, where he essentially states what this story should have been. He seems to be speaking directly to us when he says, “Everywhere she went evil men died and we cheered her for it.” He goes on to say that she came to believe more and more in her own rightness, her infallibility, her feeling justified in wrecking anything or anyone that might get in the way of her conquering the world to save it.

There is a certain poignancy, even poetry, in the fact that Daenerys became the Mother of Dragons through blood magic. It suits this story to a T that blood magic always turns on those who use it. And it is all the more painful because Dany also did so much good.

That’s a story that would have knocked my socks off, but one that was beyond the talents of D&D to tell. They tried, but they didn’t do the work to make it happen. And I don’t know if even GRRM himself has it in him anymore.

Edited May 21, 2019 by MJ Frog
Clarity and stuff.

[millennium]

54 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

There was no victory in having Grey worm last until the end just for them to destroy his character  and make him look stupid the same way they did Dany. I wish he had died during the Long Night with Jorah and Lyanna.   

He was a noble character until the last two episodes when he became kind of a dick.

I think being Queen in the North has already started to go to Sophie Turner's head.  When asked about the negative fan reaction to the finale, she told the New York Times:

Honestly, I’m not surprised. People always have an idea in their heads of how they want a show to finish, and so when it doesn’t go to their liking, they start to speak up about it and rebel.

Rebel?

[WatchrTina]

4 hours ago, Dobian said:

Wait until they sack Riverrun and rename it Al Drogo, then people will start paying attention to them.

I'm pretty sure I saw horses being loaded onto ships in that long shot of the docks.  I think THAT's why we saw all those Dothraki in the dock area when Jon was headed to the the ship that was going to take him North.  I think it's clear the Dothraki are leaving Westeros.  The Dragon queen they followed is gone and it's just too damn cold for them in Westeros. They're going home.

Edited May 21, 2019 by WatchrTina

[CatWarmer]

I’m mostly through rewatching, with the benefit of all your commentary, and have a few random thoughts.

- who redid Dany’s hair for her big speech on the steps?  It was a dirty mess just a little while earlier.  Pretty sure it wasn’t Arya!  Maybe Grey Worm?  Those were intricate braids!

- I more or less caught Jon’s mostly hidden arm movement with the knife. Looks like he got her in the midsection and angled up.  But I think the knife went right through her chain?

- my guess is Jon went straight to Ser Davos and confessed his deed. Davos probably would have hidden him away until tempers settled a bit. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were Northerners helping guard him, even if he was technically a prisoner of the Unsullied.

- regarding the Dothraki, I got the impression they traditionally follow the strongest leader.  When Khal Drogo fell off the horse, it was too bad, so sad, bye bye.  With Dany gone, rather than mourning and taking revenge, they’re probably off to have their own “council wars.”

- and if anyone asks Bran if he can father children, he’d probably say, “It’s exactly where it’s supposed to be.”

[Nashville]

The most poignant takeaway from this finale for me?  Dany got to see the Iron Throne, touch it even - but she never got to sit on it.

1 hour ago, Cheezwiz said:

I think he may have flown back to Valerya with her body. Perhaps he cremated her or buried her. I like to think Drogon is flapping around Valerya with his own kind now.

Hey, Valerya’s a long ways off.  Maybe Drogon figured carrying a mid-flight snack wasn’t a bad idea.  ;>