Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[Absolom]

34 minutes ago, Mollie said:

after 20 hours of labor, the midwife realized that the baby was breech and Joy was taken to the hospital for an emergency C-section.

I'm wondering about the labor times again.  On the webisode I watched I thought it said labor began around 4 AM and Gideon was delivered before 4 PM.  That's closer to 12 than 20. They really need some new midwives to figure out the positioning of the baby a lot sooner.

[Mollie]

Of the Duggar daughters, we have one successful homebirth (Jessa with Henry Wilberforce) and four failed homebirths that ended in hospitalization.  Conclusion:  Duggar daughters have an 80% chance of having a failed homebirthing experience.  Do you think they will learn something from this?  I don't.  Because it keeps happening!

Edited March 12, 2018 by Mollie
Jessa's apparently successful homebirth was with her second baby, not with Spurgeon.

[birkenstock]

I just watched - the first ten minutes is meal prep for Joy and Austin.  Jana, Michelle and Austin's mom help Joy prepare enchiladas and some other casserole dishes.  Joy says that she hopes the baby likes spicy food because that's what she likes and is going to eat.  Jessa is also there but sits on the couch with Henry.  She doesn't look visibly pregnant to me though she is wearing a baggy blue cardigan. Joy and Austin don't tell the baby names they have planned because they don't want to hear other people's opinions on the name and want to introduce the baby with the name.  Michelle is featured a shit ton and talks about Joy's birth.  Michelle thinks the baby is going to be an 8 pounder.  Jessa and Michelle also tell Joy she hasn't gained that much weight.

The second episode features the birth.  I felt terrible seeing her in pain.  Jim Bob and Michelle are also featured in this. We don't see the midwife, only Jill who I think tells Joy that the way she's progressing is a blessing.  They end up transporting Joy to a hospital 20-30 minutes away from the Forsythe house.  Everyone genuinely doesn't know if it's a boy or a girl.  She goes in for the surgery and delivers Gideon - he's perfectly healthy in an open bassinet. As she and the baby are wheeled into recovery, the grandparents stop the bassinet and look at him.  They say he looks like the Forsythes.  Joy points out he has Austin's nostrils (I thought the way she said it was funny).  At the Duggar house, John David sets off a blue confetti cannon and Henry spits up looking at a picture of Gideon. I think that's the big things. Just featured a lot of JB and Michelle.  Austin looked thrilled- his face was beaming and really nice to see. Poor Joy was thanking fans in the video she shot herself right after giving birth.     

ETA: Austin's mom also had to have an emergency c-section because Austin was breech.

Edited March 12, 2018 by birkenstock

[Temperance]

1 minute ago, Mollie said:

Of the Duggar daughters, we have one successful homebirth (Jessa with Spurgeon  Henry) and four failed homebirths that ended in hospitalization.  Conclusion:  Duggar daughters have an 80% chance of having a failed homebirthing experience.  Do you think they will learn something from this?  I don't.  Because it keeps happening!

fixed for you.

[Sew Sumi]

5 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I'm wondering about the labor times again.  On the webisode I watched I thought it said labor began around 4 AM and Gideon was delivered before 4 PM.  That's closer to 12 than 20. They really need some new midwives to figure out the positioning of the baby a lot sooner.

No, they said they CALLED the TTH at 4 am, and at that point she was dialated to 6. Dr. Jill was there, resplendent in her C3 tee shirt. 

They didn't go into detail about the transportation, but when they called the TTH to report, it was light out, so it sounds like Joy stalled, and the midwife FINALLY decided to transport her. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Sew Sumi

[madpsych78]

5 minutes ago, Mollie said:

Of the Duggar daughters, we have one successful homebirth (Jessa with Spurgeon) and four failed homebirths that ended in hospitalization.  Conclusion:  Duggar daughters have an 80% chance of having a failed homebirthing experience.  Do you think they will learn something from this?  I don't.  Because it keeps happening!

You mean Jessa with Henry. I believe Jessa did deliver Spurge successfully, but it was the hemorrhaging that sent her to the hospital. 

Still, though, if Joy's labor was 12 hours total, that's actually not too bad for a first birth, especially that of a 10+ pounder. And I got to thinking, did we ever see any other Duggars with Jill when she was laboring with Izzy (other than Derick)? Jill was present during Jessa's labors and deliveries and now Joy's. Plus, several of them were present for Anna's births (at least Mack and Michael, maybe Marcus).

ETA: Even 20 hours isn't that bad for a 1st birth if it was really closer to 20.

Edited March 12, 2018 by madpsych78

[Absolom]

Yeah, I guess I missed the exact statement due to noise from the street work in front of my house.  I'm looking forward to them hitting quitting time soon.  Even so 20 hours is a reasonable length of labor, but danged Jill still can't tell a baby's position correctly and neither could the midwife (if they had a state licensed one there)?  If nothing else, hopefully they start figuring out knowing in advance the baby is poorly positioned is a good idea to save yourself from the pain of fruitless labor. 

[Annb67]

These idiots make me furious. So far Dr. Jill has had three failures of a home birth, which could have, quite possibly, led to tragedy. They are absolutely stupid.

[Sew Sumi]

19 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Yeah, I guess I missed the exact statement due to noise from the street work in front of my house.  I'm looking forward to them hitting quitting time soon.  Even so 20 hours is a reasonable length of labor, but danged Jill still can't tell a baby's position correctly and neither could the midwife (if they had a state licensed one there)?  If nothing else, hopefully they start figuring out knowing in advance the baby is poorly positioned is a good idea to save yourself from the pain of fruitless labor. 

A 10 pounder isn't going to flip in the latter stages of pregnancy. Someone (or some people...looking at you, Dr. Jill) missed this one big time. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Sew Sumi

[louannems]

I watched the two TLC TO GO webisodes.  In Joy's kitchen, prepping meals, Michelle definitely hogged the camera.  And next to Austin's mother's words, Michelle was very scripted and modulated.  Jana also made food, but she never said a word and to me, seemed sad.

Jenni was delighted at being the first to hear the gender over the phone.  JB drank endless cups of Keurig coffee while waiting for the baby.  Jackson delighted in catching and playing with the blue confetti from John David's gender bomb.  Jackson still looks and acts eight.

Joy was tearful, exhausted and defeated as she was wheeled into surgery.

Also, Ben was there along JB's working sons, assembled for prayer.

Don't babies settle into head down, engaged into the pelvis, or else breech or transverse well before birth?  Why did they make Joy go through a long, painful labor breech???

[Marigold]

so it's confirmed it was a C-section? 

[graefin]

2 minutes ago, louannems said:

Don't babies settle into head down, engaged into the pelvis, or else breech or transverse well before birth?  Why did they make Joy go through a long, painful labor breech???

Because despite being all about birthing as many babies as possible, when it comes to actual childbirth, they have no clue wtf they're doing?

[louannems]

I forgot to say that the reason they withheld the baby's name before the birth was because they did not need other people's criticism.  And people would learn to like the name!  So they knew the name would be perceived as a little odd.  Thankfully, not as odd as Spurgeon!

1 minute ago, Marigold said:

so it's confirmed it was a C-section? 

Yes, for sure an emergency C-section, as soon as she arrived to the hospital.  Also, ahead of the labor, Joy mentioned if plan B was needed, they would go to the nearest hospital, which was 30 minutes away.  So no that close.

[Sew Sumi]

3 minutes ago, Marigold said:

so it's confirmed it was a C-section? 

Yup. They had a chyron with the details of the birth during the video. 

[McManda]

11 minutes ago, louannems said:

 

I forgot to say that the reason they withheld the baby's name before the birth was because they did not need other people's criticism.

 

Isn't that a pretty common reason to withhold the name announcement until the baby is born, even with common names?

I honestly don't think Gideon is all that word of a name. In fact, I think I prefer it  to the plethora of Emmas and Olivias and Ethans and Aidens. (No offense to anyone with those names. I like those names. I don't like that there are eight other kids in the class with those same names.)

Edited March 13, 2018 by McManda

[Marigold]

Poor Joy. 

Wow, the Duggar girls are not having successful homebirths, are they?  Only jessa with Henry.   I wonder if they had proper pre-natal care and birthed in a hospital (Or birth center in a hospital) with licensed midwives or an OB, if they would've had better success? 

Obviously Michelle and her daughters are different people and everyone is unique, but Michelle had less complications and the majority of her births were in a hospital.  Michelle seemed to find qualified people to handle her deliveries while these Duggar girls have gone rogue with shaky results. 

[Mollie]

4 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Poor Joy. 

Wow, the Duggar girls are not having successful homebirths, are they?  Only jessa with Henry.   I wonder if they had proper pre-natal care and birthed in a hospital (Or birth center in a hospital) with licensed midwives or an OB, if they would've had better success? 

Obviously Michelle and her daughters are different people and everyone is unique, but Michelle had less complications and the majority of her births were in a hospital.  Michelle seemed to find qualified people to handle her deliveries while these Duggar girls have gone rogue with shaky results. 

One good thing about all of these botched homebirths is that, by televising these, it will discourage other young women from attempting to give birth at home.

[Marigold]

or at the very least, show that you MUST have proper prenatal care and qualified midwives...

"rogue" is the best word I can think of to describe these Duggar homebirths. 

[MargeGunderson]

37 minutes ago, Marigold said:

or at the very least, show that you MUST have proper prenatal care and qualified midwives...

"rogue" is the best word I can think of to describe these Duggar homebirths. 

I go with “ill-advised” or “ignorant.” But I’m bitchy like that.

[asuwur]

1 hour ago, Mollie said:

Of the Duggar daughters, we have one successful homebirth (Jessa with Henry Wilberforce) and four failed homebirths that ended in hospitalization.  Conclusion:  Duggar daughters have an 80% chance of having a failed homebirthing experience.  Do you think they will learn something from this?  I don't.  Because it keeps happening!

Poor Joy...this family is whack!

I'm betting HUGE money that Jinge will deliver complication free in a nice little birthing suite....to a girl....

 

She never appeared to care for the SisterMoms homebirthing trend and even if she's not tracking the problems of Jessa, Jill and Joy, I'm sure Baaaaabe is and cherishing a chance to break from the pack again...

[kalamac]

1 hour ago, Marigold said:

Poor Joy. 

Wow, the Duggar girls are not having successful homebirths, are they?  Only jessa with Henry.   I wonder if they had proper pre-natal care and birthed in a hospital (Or birth center in a hospital) with licensed midwives or an OB, if they would've had better success? 

Obviously Michelle and her daughters are different people and everyone is unique, but Michelle had less complications and the majority of her births were in a hospital.  Michelle seemed to find qualified people to handle her deliveries while these Duggar girls have gone rogue with shaky results. 

I think they're still encouraging the home births/Jill's involvement because if the girls go elsewhere for their care, they have to admit that Jill is in no way qualified to call herself a midwife, and The "learn a skill by watching for five minutes" Duggars can't handle that Jill is still useless, even after a bit of book learning and an exam.

[Kbo]

Dang it, they lured me into downloading the TLCGO app. Why can’t I quit these people?  

Edited March 13, 2018 by Kbo
Incoherent ramblings

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

No, they said they CALLED the TTH at 4 am, and at that point she was dialated to 6. Dr. Jill was there, resplendent in her C3 tee shirt. 

They didn't go into detail about the transportation, but when they called the TTH to report, it was light out, so it sounds like Joy stalled, and the midwife FINALLY decided to transport her. 

If a midwife did a vaginal exam and was able to tell she was 6 cm, it should’ve been reasonably easy for that same midwife to diagnose the baby as breech. It seems to me that these midwives don’t learn the sorts of critical thinking skills needed to perform a good assessment of a laboring mother.  Joy suffered unecessarily, IMO; a good midwife would’ve been assessing the baby’s size and position all along and realized the kid was both breech and huge and got her to the hospital much sooner.

[queenanne]

2 hours ago, Mollie said:

One good thing about all of these botched homebirths is that, by televising these, it will discourage other young women from attempting to give birth at home.

Yeah, what's the bad old joke?  "If you can't be a good example, at least aspire to be a terrible warning?"

[Sew Sumi]

5 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Yeah, what's the bad old joke?  "If you can't be a good example, at least aspire to be a terrible warning?"

Dr. Jill should wear this on a tee shirt. 

[CatS]

It's almost as if someone <cough, God, cough cough> is telling all of them to limit their number of kids. 

[anna0852]

So not only did they mess up *yet another birth* but freely admitted it and posted video about it?

[Sew Sumi]

It was TLC produced video, not the grainy cell phone footage we got from Jessa. There were multiple cameras at the TTH when the "gender" was announced. 

[tabloidlover]

5 hours ago, Mollie said:

Someone posted on Pickles that there is a webisode about Joy giving birth to Gideon.  The poster said that Joy started out with a homebirth with a midwife and Michelle, Jana, Jill, Johanna, Austin's mom, and Austin's sister.  After 20 hours of labor, the midwife realized that the baby was breech and Joy was taken to the hospital for an emergency C-section.  Maybe Jill should invest in better "medical things."

My apologies!   I posted this news in the Counting On and Duggard threads -- I should have checked here first!

I am convinced that Jill will continue to "pretend midwife" at family births until something goes horribly wrong (as in near fatal).   She has learned nothing from her own botched births.   She's too stupid to realize how ignorant she is.

[Zuleikha]

Of the Duggar daughters, we have one successful homebirth (Jessa with Henry Wilberforce) and four failed homebirths that ended in hospitalization.  Conclusion:  Duggar daughters have an 80% chance of having a failed homebirthing experience.

What's really scary is to think of is that without modern hospitals/Western medicine, there's a strong probability all 3 would have died. Jessa, for sure, with her hemorrhaging would have. An actual competent midwife may have been able to catch and turn Joy's breech earlier and change things, but that's still a sign that the way their community is training midwives is insufficient (and there's no midwife or doctor who can guarantee a change of a breech baby, so it's impossible to know). I forget exactly what Jill's problem was, but she needed a hospital intervention so it seems like odds aren't in her favor.

I don't believe god gives people messages about faith through childbearing and delivery. But if god did, it seems to me that god is telling them that either their behavior is not really pious or that there is no connection between piety and childbearing (and Anna's nightmare marriage already demonstrates that purity is no guarantee of perfect, wondrous marriage either).

[DragonFaerie]

2 hours ago, queenanne said:

Yeah, what's the bad old joke?  "If you can't be a good example, at least aspire to be a terrible warning?"

I think it's those that can't do, teach.  I certainly wouldn't want Jill teaching anything, not even baking banana bread.

[Sew Sumi]

It just occurred to me that TLC breaking this video was this week's Monday Surprise. 

I wonder if they had something else planned, but brought out the Big Guns to try and mitigate Derelict's tantrums? There are people on Jill's instagram still wondering when they'll be on the show. 

[Spencer Hastings]

Joy: “The nearest hospital is only like 30 minutes away if there’s an emergency.”  Does she realize how long 30 minutes is when two lives are on the line?

These girls need to start seeing real medical professionals when giving birth to human beings.  Seeing Jim Bob try to calmly tell the cameras what was happening and then break into a mild sprint for his truck was very telling of how serious the situation was.  Joy definitely got some bad advice and “medical care.” I hope Jinger and Kendra take a look at the past few births and have an excellent hospital plan. 

[floridamom]

I can't watch the Gideon birth clips. Can anyone embed them here?

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

What's really scary is to think of is that without modern hospitals/Western medicine, there's a strong probability all 3 would have died. Jessa, for sure, with her hemorrhaging would have. An actual competent midwife may have been able to catch and turn Joy's breech earlier and change things, but that's still a sign that the way their community is training midwives is insufficient (and there's no midwife or doctor who can guarantee a change of a breech baby, so it's impossible to know). I forget exactly what Jill's problem was, but she needed a hospital intervention so it seems like odds aren't in her favor.

 

Well, it would have just been women dying. And maybe a few babies. Lots more where they came from, right? That's got to be the underlying principle of these cultists, really. Women schwimmen. The only thing they're good for is birthin' them babies. So if they're no good for that, might as well move along to the next batch. 

[sigmaforce86]

11 hours ago, louannems said:

  JB drank endless cups of Keurig coffee while waiting for the baby. 

For some reason this really pisses me off.  There's no way JB used those re-fillable Keurig cups and his own coffee - so for all his "buy used/save the difference" lecturing over the years, we make our own laundry soap, and so on and brag on and aren't we perfect bringing up all these kids with no debt...............JB not only uses a Keurig but uses it freely.  I'm wondering how many of those little plastic k-cups Mr Clueless wasted but he's always been about satisfaction for himself before anything else and if it breaks his own rules about saving money, being responsible or pretty much anything else well that doesn't matter because those rules don't apply to the his royal headship

OK, sorry, rant over!

7 hours ago, tabloidlover said:

I am convinced that Jill will continue to "pretend midwife" at family births until something goes horribly wrong (as in near fatal).   She has learned nothing from her own botched births.   She's too stupid to realize how ignorant she is.

Jill will continue to tout her "training" and her "experience" using her time in danger america and her endless exams of her sisters which consist of the incredibly advanced medical equipment a stethoscope and a home doppler because she believes it's adequate and she wants everyone else to believe it too especially her family.  When you think about it what else does she have now?  She and Derrick are TLC failures banned to Josh land levels of a blurred face at events with a husband who has no job, no prospects and an increasingly unhinged social media presence.  If she can't pop up during her sisters pregnancy's and births by getting Joy and the rest to believe they need her what else does she have except staying at home chasing after Izzy and Sam all day and cutting her husbands meals into small bites to accommodate his ever changing jawline.  She apparently screwed up again with Joy but they'll keep inviting her back no matter how many labors end with an emergency hospital trip.  Despite it all I do feel sorry for Joy though, she's young and despite having a pretty good personality she has a lot of dominate personalities around her including her husband plus the general brainwashing of her upbringing - I have no doubt she was pushed into the home birth believing it was the right and godly thing to do and she may have suffered for it more and longer than was necessary.  

[GeeGolly]

JB was all about buy used, save the difference, when they were poor and when he blew a quarter million on a campaign. They have money now, so even though he still touts the family line, they buy whatever they want whether it's new or used.

And they ignore how their spending habits have changed, just like they ignore relaxed courting rules, pants wearing daughters, skin tight maternity wear and kidults traveling solo.

[yogi2014L]

If they still allow Jill to attend and have any input in prenatal care or delivery after what she did to herself/Sam...there is no hope. Truly. Someone would die in labor and they would still use Jill.

I really truly hope Kendra, Lauren (?), Jinger  avoid this homebirth trend the idioit Duggar girls have going like the plague. hopefully their mothers/Jeremy will intervene since Mechelle is too wacked out to give a shit 

We all were worried about Joy and it seems like it was for good reason. Poor thing. Hopefully this traumatized Austin enough where he will demand hospital birth for the next one. 

[Normades]

11 hours ago, doodlebug said:

If a midwife did a vaginal exam and was able to tell she was 6 cm, it should’ve been reasonably easy for that same midwife to diagnose the baby as breech. It seems to me that these midwives don’t learn the sorts of critical thinking skills needed to perform a good assessment of a laboring mother.  Joy suffered unecessarily, IMO; a good midwife would’ve been assessing the baby’s size and position all along and realized the kid was both breech and huge and got her to the hospital much sooner.

Thank you for saying this because I remember many years ago when I was expecting that the doctor (yes I'm a horrible science-believing heathen) would tell me during my weekly visits at the end that I was x cm and the baby was head down and in position.  They told me my baby's position for a solid month before he was born.  I would think a midwife should be able to determine something so important.

9 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

What's really scary is to think of is that without modern hospitals/Western medicine, there's a strong probability all 3 would have died. Jessa, for sure, with her hemorrhaging would have.

Exactly!!  I had the same issue as Jessa and nearly died, so even if you can do the natural birth it doesn't mean there won't be other complications.  I get so tired of these people saying modern science has made women think birth is unnatural and belongs in a hospital or that women have been doing this since the beginning of time and we're still here.  The daughter on Sister Wives said something similar during her long, excruciating home birth.  Yes, birth is natural and women have been doing it throughout history ---- and dying often!!  Seriously, birthing is dangerous!!  Things are better and good outcomes happen more frequently because of  hospitals, doctors and even well trained midwives, but make no mistake this isn't some simple procedure!  So many things can go wrong and you're putting two lives at risk.  I know many women come through with little medical intervention, but that isn't always the case.  I can also see the attraction of a home birth, but to me, the risk is not worth it.  Seriously, 30 minutes from a hospital during a severe emergency is a LONG way!!  Had I been 30 minutes away, I would probably not be here right now.  Their attitude seems to reinforce the idea that women are unimportant and expendable.  It's so sad and I feel so sorry for Joy.  I hope someone in that family learned something from all of this!! (I'm looking at you, Jeremy!! Don't allow your wife to risk her life and that of your unborn child! This goes for Joe, too.)  They should be so thankful for those doctors and nurses who saved their lives, but I doubt they give it a thought.  Birthing is not a contest!!

And keep Jill away from these pregnant women for heaven's sake!!  Makes me wonder though, was she volunteering her time??

[3 is enough]

Jill is a menace.  She should not be allowed to come within 500 feet of any pregnant woman.  

And Joy obviously was not getting regular prenatal exams from a real medical professional.  Surely during the last month when weekly internal exams are performed a skilled doctor/midwife would have been able to tell the baby was breech.  I am beyond disgusted.

Michelle always got real medical care during her pregnancies. Why don't her daughters deserve the same?

Oh yeah, because they and their husbands are so poorly educated they cannot get decent paying jobs and afford medical insurance, that's why...

I hope to God Jeremy was sufficiently incensed to keep Jill FAR FAR away from Jinger.  Hopefully she is getting real prenatal care, and when it is time to deliver Jeremy tells a little white lie and says the baby came too fast to call Jill and the camera crew.  Thank God they are in Laredo- distance will help. 

[louannems]

About JB and his wasteful Keurig cups.  Imagine all those endless cups being used by that huge house full of lounging adults.  Plus Jessa and Ben who practically live at TTH!

That family should just install a commercial Bunn coffee system.

In JB's defense, he DID reuse his Styrofoam cup!

And with as many dishwashers in that house, not using real mugs is a sin.  Coffee tastes awful in styofoam anyway.

[bigskygirl]

My mother had to be transported by ambulance to Great Falls which is about 90 miles away when something went terribly wrong with her last pregnancy. The doctor in East Helena knew his stuff and told the ambulance service he had a woman and unborn baby in serious trouble who needs to be transported out of town immediately when there was a call of a worker at the smelter in East Helena with a badly broken leg at the same time. He told the ambulance personnel to get my mother or all heck would break loose. Sadly my little brother was still born, and my mother almost died. Great Falls has one of the best prenatal care units in the country, and all of this happened in the late 1960's before all the modern medical care we have today.

In the case of the husbands not being too bright about getting their wives and unborn child the best medical care, I think insurance does play a part of it, but not all of it. The Duggars seem to think Jesus will come in and save the day. They have someone like Jill with her special medical bag to deliver the baby. One of the daughters or daughters-in-law could die during childbirth, and I do not think a tragedy like this would wake any of them up. Look at Michelle after Jubilee. She was still convinced she would be able to have baby number #20. She loves to tell her own children she could have died giving birth to them. It is like some weird honor system with them. Look at Anna's picture the other day. I gave birth to half the Duggar grandchildren, and I have the only two granddaughters. Ain't I special!

[DkNNy79]

Wow, so Joy had an emergency C-section.  So, did they mess with us with the timeline of when they released the news and pictures?  Because it seemed like she was discharged from the hospital only a couple days after delivery.  That along with the way she was sitting cross legged in the hospital holding the baby made me convinced she had a vaginal birth.

I also had emergency C-section on a Wednesday morning and I was discharged from the hospital on Sunday afternoon.  There was no way I would've been able to sit cross legged after the surgery.  Granted I was 18 years older than Joy when I had my first baby, so maybe that played a part in it.

Edited March 13, 2018 by DkNNy79

[beckie]

I've never had kids or trained to become a nurse or midwife, but it seems to me, that knowing which direction a baby is, would be one of the first things learned. More and more, I'm thinking the only requirement of Jill passing was putting her name on the test. 

 

I'm glad Joy and Gideon are OK.

[Celia Rubenstein]

Wait, did someone say Joy had a midwife present as well as Jill?

Does that mean that even with two (supposed) midwives present, between the two of them ... NEITHER of them was able to determine the baby was breech until Joy had labored for 15-20 hours? 

That is outrageous. Inexcusable. Frightening. 

This family's (extremely dubious) luck is gonna run out one of these days.  One of those daughters or daughters-in-law or babies is gonna end up in the morgue if they don't wise up. Then we'll all be treated to a Very Special Episode featuring a goddamed funeral. 

[Portia]

Yes, skilled midwives know how to assess the  position of the baby before birth. Twice my niece's midwife was able to determine that her unborn baby was breech. She recommend activities (something in the swimming pool, I think!) that actually helped coax one of the babies into the head-down position before her birth. The second baby remained breech and was delivered butt-first by the midwife in a home setting. The midwife did, however, insist that the birth take place in her own home, since it is five minutes from a hospital. I still wasn't thrilled about my niece's decision to deliver breech at home, but what do I know? I'm just an old woman who was born breech with a dislocated hip. Still, thankfully, all went well for mom and baby.

I really can't believe that this family has had yet another c-section. Those are some sucky odds.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Portia
because it's breech, not breach

[Mollie]

24 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Wait, did someone say Joy had a midwife present as well as Jill?

Does that mean that even with two (supposed) midwives present, between the two of them ... NEITHER of them was able to determine the baby was breech until Joy had labored for 15-20 hours? 

That is outrageous. Inexcusable. Frightening. 

This family's (extremely dubious) luck is gonna run out one of these days.  One of those daughters or daughters-in-law or babies is gonna end up in the morgue if they don't wise up. Then we'll all be treated to a Very Special Episode featuring a goddamed funeral. 

The only good thing about Joy's botched homebirth is that she cannot have another homebirth in the future with a midwife present, and that includes sister Jill.  Under Arkansas law, it is illegal for a midwife to assist at a homebirth if the mother has previously had a C-section.  I hope that will be enough to convince Joy to have subsequent births in a hospital.  But, if she foolishly tries a homebirth again and Jill is present, I vow to personally report Jill to the authorities and have whatever license Jill has revoked.

[Luvmy300zx]

I can’t believe they use such poor midwives. I used one for DS2. She suspected at a check up that he was transverse, so she did an ultrasound immediately. This was in 1980. With a nurse they performed a maneuver right there in the office to turn him the right way. It was painful but he stayed put. That was almost 40 years ago yet today Jill and her associate can’t figure out a full term baby isn’t in the correct position or head engaged to be born? They are a tragedy waiting to happen.

[Normades]

53 minutes ago, beckie said:

More and more, I'm thinking the only requirement of Jill passing was putting her name on the test. 

Wait, do you actually believe Jill was able to correctly put her name on a test???

6 minutes ago, Mollie said:

The only good thing about Joy's botched homebirth is that she cannot have another homebirth in the future with a midwife present, and that includes sister Jill.  Under Arkansas law, it is illegal for a midwife to assist at a homebirth if the mother has previously had a C-section.  I hope that will be enough to convince Joy to have subsequent births in a hospital.  But, if she foolishly tries a homebirth again and Jill is present, I vow to personally report Jill to the authorities and have whatever license Jill has revoked.

Is that true?  Didn't Jill try to have a home birth after a c-section with Sam?  I'm with you, though.  I definitely hope Joy and all others coming after her get real, certified medical care and go to a hospital.  Sorry, I'm old now and I don't advocate home births.  I think it's an unnecessary risk.  We're lucky to have good facilities.  Let's use them!! 

[doodlebug]

25 minutes ago, Mollie said:

The only good thing about Joy's botched homebirth is that she cannot have another homebirth in the future with a midwife present, and that includes sister Jill.  Under Arkansas law, it is illegal for a midwife to assist at a homebirth if the mother has previously had a C-section.  I hope that will be enough to convince Joy to have subsequent births in a hospital.  But, if she foolishly tries a homebirth again and Jill is present, I vow to personally report Jill to the authorities and have whatever license Jill has revoked.

Jill has no license, she never has.  Therefore, she attends her sister's deliveries as a family member/support person.  Since I doubt she ever intends to get a license, let alone ever work as a midwife; it doesn't matter if she's there because she has no official standing as a practitioner.  Anyone can give birth at home with anyone or no one in attendance.

 

16 minutes ago, Normades said:

Wait, do you actually believe Jill was able to correctly put her name on a test???

Is that true?  Didn't Jill try to have a home birth after a c-section with Sam?  I'm with you, though.  I definitely hope Joy and all others coming after her get real, certified medical care and go to a hospital.  Sorry, I'm old now and I don't advocate home births.  I think it's an unnecessary risk.  We're lucky to have good facilities.  Let's use them!! 

Yes, Jill stayed home in an attempt to have a vaginal birth with Sam.  Since we've been given very few of the details, we presume that Sam's 2 week NICU stay was due, at least in part, to Jill's poor choices surrounding his birth including her decision to stay home in labor for about a day and a half prior to going to the hospital for a cesarean.  Derick said she was in labor 40 hours, as I recall.

20 minutes ago, Luvmy300zx said:

I can’t believe they use such poor midwives. I used one for DS2. She suspected at a check up that he was transverse, so she did an ultrasound immediately. This was in 1980. With a nurse they performed a maneuver right there in the office to turn him the right way. It was painful but he stayed put. That was almost 40 years ago yet today Jill and her associate can’t figure out a full term baby isn’t in the correct position or head engaged to be born? They are a tragedy waiting to happen.

Had Joy been getting prenatal care from a capable practitioner, she probably would've had an ultrasound to assess the size of the baby a few weeks before she was due as it seemed pretty obvious to anyone with eyes that that kid was probably much larger than average.  Obviously, an ultrasound to assess fetal weight would've revealed that he was also breech.  One would hope that even a midwife who will deliver breech babies at home (terrible idea, IMO) would draw the line at trying to deliver a 10 lb kid breech at home, especially with a first time mom. She would also probably insist on testing the mom for gestational diabetes, which I'm willing to bet Joy never did.  I'm not talking about Jill, of course, I said capable.

Despite Jill's insistence that Izzy turned 'transverse breech' (whatever that is) while she was in labor, it is highly unlikely that he wasn't breech all along as was Gideon.  Very large babies aren't able to turn spontaneously late in the pregnancy, let alone in labor; especially in first time mothers who have tight abs compared to vets.

Edited March 13, 2018 by doodlebug