Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[emmawoodhouse]

I also saw that HSI sent an undercover officer to the lot under the premise of wanting to buy a used car and was met by a man named Randy. Smuggar was also there. 

So, who is Randy other than Smuggar's fall guy?

eta Can't wait for Emily D. Baker's take. She's all about a sassy lawyer. 😃

Edited August 10, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[GeeGolly]

Shit, there's a possible fall guy? That sucks. I was hoping for an air tight case.

I just (half) watched a 20/20 I recorded about BTK. I couldn't help but think of Josh here and there during the show. Not that I think Josh has murderous tendencies - I absolutely don't. But the fact that BTK was somewhat of an anomaly. He really didn't fit the profile of a serial killer, nor could they explain his abnormal sexual urges. And he was arrogant as fuck.

His now adult daughter said he was an average dad and the family had no idea he was the scary serial killer in their small hometown, although I do wonder if there were any small (or large) red flags they ignored and still can't consciously recognize. And ... she still loves her dad - her dad, not BTK. BTK himself explained his personalities as "cubing", much like compartmentalizing. He could commit a horrifically brutal crime and crawl back into a tent while camping with Boy Scouts, like nothing ever happened. Later, when describing his crimes, he had no shame, empathy or regret, just cold hearted arrogance.

Like I said, every once in while during the show on BTK, I thought of Josh. I think sometimes, no matter the circumstances some are born broken. I believe Josh would have been Josh regardless of what family he was born into. And I actually think his behaviors could have been worse if born into a different family, because most families aren't constantly spying on you. I'm not defending the cult lifestyle by any means, just saying in this circumstance, it might have actually prevented more harm.

 

[Spazamanaz]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think sometimes, no matter the circumstances some are born broken. I believe Josh would have been Josh regardless of what family he was born into. And I actually think his behaviors could have been worse if born into a different family, because most families aren't constantly spying on you. I'm not defending the cult lifestyle by any means, just saying in this circumstance, it might have actually prevented more harm.

 

I have to agree with you on this. You're right, some are born broken. Along with everything that has been said about Josh (which I agree with) , I think he also has a lack of empathy. 

[ginger90]

1 hour ago, Spazamanaz said:

I think he also has a lack of empathy. 

Many in this family could be described this way. It’s sad.

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, Spazamanaz said:

I have to agree with you on this. You're right, some are born broken. Along with everything that has been said about Josh (which I agree with) , I think he also has a lack of empathy. 

Of course I can't claim to know how Josh got to be who he is today in terms of nature vs. nurture. But I agree that there are some inborn traits that are probably the case here. I think it's interesting that @GeeGolly thought of Josh when watching a documentary about BTK. I thought of Josh the other day after I'd re-watched the Netflix three part documentary Murder Among the Mormons. It's the story of Mark Hofmann, described in Wikipedia as: 

Quote

an American counterfeiter, forger, and convicted murderer. Widely regarded as one of the most accomplished forgers in history, Hofmann is especially noted for his creation of documents related to the history of the Latter Day Saint movement.When his schemes began to unravel, he constructed bombs to murder three people in Salt Lake City, Utah. The first two bombs killed two people on October 15, 1985. On the following day, a third bomb exploded in Hofmann's car.

I don't think Smugs is anywhere close to being as evilly brilliant, focused, or energetic as Hofmann was, nor do I think he's a killer. But, the parallel was that Hofmann was living as a very observant Mormon while all this was going on. He grew up in a strict Mormon home, with a dominant father who even after Hofmann was grown, married, and had kids of his own, kicked up a fuss over things like seeing a book on dinosaurs in Mark's kids' possession. His parents were so proud of him. His Mormon neighbors thought he was a paragon. He was looked up to. And it was all a front, and had been since he was a kid. 

In Hofmann's case, he was hoodwinking everyone including, as far as I can tell, his own parents. Of course, IMO Smugs' failings and weaknesses were not much of a secret to his besotted parents, who became enablers and accomplices. They have continued to prop him up, support him, and present him to the world as their anointed Crown Prince of the Kingdom. That act started wearing thin after Joshgate I (revelation of the molestations) and II (exposure of the Ashley Madison account and other adulterous behavior). But JB and Meech are still at it - although I suppose they can't now expect the world at large to buy the idea that Josh is something special in a good way. 

Wouldn't it be fun to be a mouse in the corner in the TTH and get the scoop on the siblings' reactions to Josh these days? I'm sure JB and Meech come down hard on anyone who won't toe the party line and love their brother, but I'd bet that JD at least has long kept his distance from Josh. IIRC JD had some THs in the early days of Counting On in which he told of his disappointment with Josh's [unnamed] bad behavior. I'm sure that he toned down his feelings for the cameras. Heh.

I don't argue with anyone who doesn't like Derick much, but I give him HUGE props for getting Jill out of the daily orbit of JB and Meech, to the extent that JB won't allow Jill to visit the TTH without his permission. Austin's a total IBLP Kool-aid drinker, but I suspect he also doesn't have much time for Josh and may be a bulwark between Joy and the whole Josh mess that JB and Meech want to keep the family enmeshed in. Jeremy doesn't have much time for the whole Arkansas/TTH circus, so for all his faults at least Jinger's out from under that daily mess too. 

ETA: @ginger90 posted while I was writing, and I agree that empathy is not a strong Duggar characteristic in general. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Jeeves

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Wouldn't it be fun to be a mouse in the corner in the TTH and get the scoop on the siblings' reactions to Josh these days? I'm sure JB and Meech come down hard on anyone who won't toe the party line and love their brother, but I'd bet that JD at least has long kept his distance from Josh. IIRC JD had some THs in the early days of Counting On in which he told of his disappointment with Josh's [unnamed] bad behavior. I'm sure that he toned down his feelings for the cameras. Heh.

I don't argue with anyone who doesn't like Derick much, but I give him HUGE props for getting Jill out of the daily orbit of JB and Meech, to the extent that JB won't allow Jill to visit the TTH without his permission. Austin's a total IBLP Kool-aid drinker, but I suspect he also doesn't have much time for Josh and may be a bulwark between Joy and the whole Josh mess that JB and Meech want to keep the family enmeshed in. Jeremy doesn't have much time for the whole Arkansas/TTH circus, so for all his faults at least Jinger's out from under that daily mess too. 

You make a lot of good points @Jeeves. Yes families fight, and have disagreements, but family members who live together often have the best understanding of the person because they are around them when their "mask" is down.

I don't think the older kids have any time for Josh's foolishness any more, and likely JB and Michelle dont bother them with it, if only to keep the peace. I could see them taking any frustrations out on Anna for not "watching him" (which I have said before). 

I too am glad Jill, Jinger and Joy don't have to be around Josh any more than they would want to be and they would have spouses that stand behind them in that issue. 

[Zella]

Is it serial killer week for snarkers? I rewatched The Fall and also thought of the Duggars, specifically of Anna, when the wife can't or won't put two and two together about her husband always conveniently being at work when a murder happens. 

I also agree that Josh would have had issues even if he hadn't been born in the Duggar family. I don't think the family's weird fixation on sex, combined with their oppressive rules on it, helped, but I also don't think they inherently led him to be the way he is. 

[Tikichick]

5 hours ago, Spazamanaz said:

I have to agree with you on this. You're right, some are born broken. Along with everything that has been said about Josh (which I agree with) , I think he also has a lack of empathy. 

The notion of empathy -- or of compassion, charity and many of the other positive attributes ironically haven't been truly led in the slightest by the stellar example of their (self proclaimed) parental units who claim to have given so much focus to helping their children follow the right path.   The witness they actually demonstrated of caring for others and having a heart for others was nothing but a warped and empty display for public attention and acclaim.  It would be remarkable for any of the 19 to actually embrace those positive attributes with sincerity and back it up with action after a lifetime of being taught those are only empty words.   

[xwordfanatik]

9 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Shit, there's a possible fall guy? That sucks. I was hoping for an air tight case.

I just (half) watched a 20/20 I recorded about BTK. I couldn't help but think of Josh here and there during the show. Not that I think Josh has murderous tendencies - I absolutely don't. But the fact that BTK was somewhat of an anomaly. He really didn't fit the profile of a serial killer, nor could they explain his abnormal sexual urges. And he was arrogant as fuck.

His now adult daughter said he was an average dad and the family had no idea he was the scary serial killer in their small hometown, although I do wonder if there were any small (or large) red flags they ignored and still can't consciously recognize. And ... she still loves her dad - her dad, not BTK. BTK himself explained his personalities as "cubing", much like compartmentalizing. He could commit a horrifically brutal crime and crawl back into a tent while camping with Boy Scouts, like nothing ever happened. Later, when describing his crimes, he had no shame, empathy or regret, just cold hearted arrogance.

Like I said, every once in while during the show on BTK, I thought of Josh. I think sometimes, no matter the circumstances some are born broken. I believe Josh would have been Josh regardless of what family he was born into. And I actually think his behaviors could have been worse if born into a different family, because most families aren't constantly spying on you. I'm not defending the cult lifestyle by any means, just saying in this circumstance, it might have actually prevented more harm.

 

I plan to watch that on On Demand.  Mr. X and I were at an expo in Portland a few years back, and I stooped to look at something.  When I straightened up, I was face to face with a man that I swear was BTK's twin brother or a complete lookalike.  Threw me for a loop!

BTT, I too think that Josh was able to hide his true self for much of his life.  I also think that he was broken from the get-go, regardless of his cult upbringing and obvious favoritism from his f'ed up parents.  How sad that Anna probably won't divorce him.  

[Albanyguy]

6 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Austin's a total IBLP Kool-aid drinker, but I suspect he also doesn't have much time for Josh

Austin seems stiff-necked and self-righteous, and I think he prides himself on being a hard-working man who lives up to his responsibilities. I suspect he's always had a great deal of contempt for Josh, not just for his sinfulness, but because Josh was a slug who sat around on his lazy ass all day.

[BigBingerBro]

‘This Case Is Straightforward’: Prosecutors Detail Origins of Josh Duggar Child Pornography Investigation in New Filing

[jcbrown]

28 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

‘This Case Is Straightforward’: Prosecutors Detail Origins of Josh Duggar Child Pornography Investigation in New Filing

Thanks for the article. People may want to know that there are descriptions of some of the material the perv downloaded described in it. Smuggar should never, ever be around children.

[emmawoodhouse]

36 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

‘This Case Is Straightforward’: Prosecutors Detail Origins of Josh Duggar Child Pornography Investigation in New Filing

Very disturbing reading. #44 in the search warrant identifies "Randy." 

[Quilt Fairy]

22 hours ago, Zella said:

The prosecution's response to Josh's request for discovery is some of the most withering sarcasm I've seen in a filing in any of the true crime stuff I've ever read. I'm curious if it looks as sassy to a lawyer. But they basically tell him that the justice system doesn't work the way he thinks it does and most of what he wants in fact does not exist. 

The prosecution's response is a very interesting read.  First, the reply is definitely sarcastic, but if you go back to Smuggar's request, it is written in a highly snarky manner itself.  I know Josh didn't write it himself, so I wonder if lawyers always snipe at each other this way in legal proceedings.  It's very made-for-TV-ish.  But even more than the schadenfreude it provides, the response provides a very clear picture of the timeline of events and the cast of characters in the case, something I found very muddled from just reading the description of the court proceedings that a law student had provided on reddit. 

[emmawoodhouse]

21 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

The prosecution's response is a very interesting read.  First, the reply is definitely sarcastic, but if you go back to Smuggar's request, it is written in a highly snarky manner itself.  I know Josh didn't write it himself, so I wonder if lawyers always snipe at each other this way in legal proceedings.  It's very made-for-TV-ish.  But even more than the schadenfreude it provides, the response provides a very clear picture of the timeline of events and the cast of characters in the case, something I found very muddled from just reading the description of the court proceedings that a law student had provided on reddit. 

If they're still out there, the proceedings between the lawyers for Tati Westbrook and Without a Crystal Ball provided many laughs. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[Tabbygirl521]

13 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Of course I can't claim to know how Josh got to be who he is today in terms of nature vs. nurture. But I agree that there are some inborn traits that are probably the case here. I think it's interesting that @GeeGolly thought of Josh when watching a documentary about BTK. I thought of Josh the other day after I'd re-watched the Netflix three part documentary Murder Among the Mormons. It's the story of Mark Hofmann, described in Wikipedia as: 

I don't think Smugs is anywhere close to being as evilly brilliant, focused, or energetic as Hofmann was, nor do I think he's a killer. But, the parallel was that Hofmann was living as a very observant Mormon while all this was going on. He grew up in a strict Mormon home, with a dominant father who even after Hofmann was grown, married, and had kids of his own, kicked up a fuss over things like seeing a book on dinosaurs in Mark's kids' possession. His parents were so proud of him. His Mormon neighbors thought he was a paragon. He was looked up to. And it was all a front, and had been since he was a kid. 

In Hofmann's case, he was hoodwinking everyone including, as far as I can tell, his own parents. Of course, IMO Smugs' failings and weaknesses were not much of a secret to his besotted parents, who became enablers and accomplices. They have continued to prop him up, support him, and present him to the world as their anointed Crown Prince of the Kingdom. That act started wearing thin after Joshgate I (revelation of the molestations) and II (exposure of the Ashley Madison account and other adulterous behavior). But JB and Meech are still at it - although I suppose they can't now expect the world at large to buy the idea that Josh is something special in a good way. 

Wouldn't it be fun to be a mouse in the corner in the TTH and get the scoop on the siblings' reactions to Josh these days? I'm sure JB and Meech come down hard on anyone who won't toe the party line and love their brother, but I'd bet that JD at least has long kept his distance from Josh. IIRC JD had some THs in the early days of Counting On in which he told of his disappointment with Josh's [unnamed] bad behavior. I'm sure that he toned down his feelings for the cameras. Heh.

I don't argue with anyone who doesn't like Derick much, but I give him HUGE props for getting Jill out of the daily orbit of JB and Meech, to the extent that JB won't allow Jill to visit the TTH without his permission. Austin's a total IBLP Kool-aid drinker, but I suspect he also doesn't have much time for Josh and may be a bulwark between Joy and the whole Josh mess that JB and Meech want to keep the family enmeshed in. Jeremy doesn't have much time for the whole Arkansas/TTH circus, so for all his faults at least Jinger's out from under that daily mess too. 

ETA: @ginger90 posted while I was writing, and I agree that empathy is not a strong Duggar characteristic in general. 

Something I tend to lose sight of, re: Ma and Pa Duggar enabling Josh, is that this particular cult seems to think child sexual abuse within families is very common. So they apparently thought they could handle it within their family and church, just like “everyone else.” 

[hathorlive]

On 8/5/2021 at 11:07 PM, emmawoodhouse said:

Even he wouldn't be stupid enough to store pics on his phone or even his cloud. He kept everything on the Dark Web.

No not really, or he wouldn't have been caught.  BTW, yahoo, AOL, and Google have always scanned attachments for known hashes of CP.  Always.  There were ways around that, of course, but welcome to the party Apple.  You are only 30 years too late.  I'm sure we can file that under your "we have no back doors in our software and can't help you catch the terrorist, murder, rapist you are looking for" folder.

On 8/7/2021 at 11:08 AM, jacourt said:

If Anna finds out josh is on the internet what are the odds she’ll report it?

No chance at all.  I'm sure if one of her children confides something to her about daddy, she'll ignore that as well.  Victims aren't created out of thin air, they are made by many, many culpable people.

Edited August 11, 2021 by hathorlive

[hathorlive]

19 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Shit, there's a possible fall guy? That sucks. I was hoping for an air tight case.

I just (half) watched a 20/20 I recorded about BTK. I couldn't help but think of Josh here and there during the show. Not that I think Josh has murderous tendencies - I absolutely don't. But the fact that BTK was somewhat of an anomaly. He really didn't fit the profile of a serial killer, nor could they explain his abnormal sexual urges. And he was arrogant as fuck.

His now adult daughter said he was an average dad and the family had no idea he was the scary serial killer in their small hometown, although I do wonder if there were any small (or large) red flags they ignored and still can't consciously recognize. And ... she still loves her dad - her dad, not BTK. BTK himself explained his personalities as "cubing", much like compartmentalizing. He could commit a horrifically brutal crime and crawl back into a tent while camping with Boy Scouts, like nothing ever happened. Later, when describing his crimes, he had no shame, empathy or regret, just cold hearted arrogance.

Like I said, every once in while during the show on BTK, I thought of Josh. I think sometimes, no matter the circumstances some are born broken. I believe Josh would have been Josh regardless of what family he was born into. And I actually think his behaviors could have been worse if born into a different family, because most families aren't constantly spying on you. I'm not defending the cult lifestyle by any means, just saying in this circumstance, it might have actually prevented more harm.

 

BTK was also caught because he used his church's computer to type up letters to the police and EnCase found the Church's name in the metadata as the owner of the software.  These guys always think they are smarter than everyone else and they usually get caught.  

I do agree that Josh was either born broken or was made that way by his parent's arrogance and twisted beliefs.  How many serial killer's cite a parent that was obsessed with religion?

On the subject of "Randy", I'm not too worried about him being the fall guy.  The crux of this case, and why I've said it's a much better case than any I've been involved in, is the Geolocation on Josh's iPhone that put him in the download location AS the files were being downloaded.  The chances of him downloading highly illegal child porn, on a super not so secret partition while an ex-con is IN the room is next to none.  Besides, the defense then has to PROVE that Randy was there with Josh in the same room, that Randy knew about the secret partition, or even knows what the dark web is, and on and on.  The jury is NOT going to buy this.  Especially if Randy has receipts like being at the dentist or another provable location other than the car lot.  Like an ATM purchase at another location in town.

Edited August 11, 2021 by hathorlive

[emmawoodhouse]

True, Randy just happened to be there the day the undercover agent established location of the "lot." (I put that in quotes since the lot was the size of a postage stamp.) That was months after Smuggar downloaded the files. Randy might not have been in Smuggar's employ then. And I agree, no one is brazen enough to download that kind of stuff with someone practically sitting on top of you. Not even Smuggar.

[sue450]

On 8/9/2021 at 4:14 PM, Nysha said:

I don't think the victims were ever threatened with getting their heads shaved. I think Josh had to ask forgiveness at church for an unspecified sin against his sisters and they were required to forgive him, plus he had his head shaved and was sent away to dig a pond. 

actually I went back and found THIS   Per the church member's account, Josh didn't want his head shaved. He reportedly said, "I really don't want to do that." Church members allegedly presented Josh with an ultimatum. Eventually, he decided to have his head shaved. The source told Radar Online elders threatened Josh, telling him that if he didn't buzz of his hair, one of his victims would have to.......

  here is a link with more info  https://popculture.com/reality-tv/news/josh-duggar-allegedly-forced-shave-head-family-church-molestation-scandal/

[BigBingerBro]

At least three cops caught Duggar downloading child porn

[SMama]

9 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

At least three cops caught Duggar downloading child porn

I wonder why the other two didn’t report him to the feds. 

[Rootbeer]

2 minutes ago, SMama said:

I wonder why the other two didn’t report him to the feds. 

Do we know that they didn't?  I wonder what it was that they were looking for since they apparently were not searching for child sexual abuse, but some other criminal activity at the time.  Since the feds put in their report that two unrelated police organizations in addition to HS found the images on Josh's computer; I presume they knew that because those other law enforcers reported it to them, too.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Rootbeer

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, SMama said:

I wonder why the other two didn’t report him to the feds. 

The way these taskforces tend to work is that you throw out a big net (aka looking for known CP hashes) and you work off the list developing leads.  If Josh was seen and noted as sharing illegal material, but was in the "to do" list, then it makes sense.  Realistically, you only have a few LEO doing this work.  My prior agency was the state lead of the ICAC grant and we only had 3 full time people working on the taskforce.  It's a matter of means, equipment and time.

[merylinkid]

3 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

It's a matter of means, equipment and time.

Yep I've said this before and I'll say it again -- we are putting more thought into this case than the prosecution is right now.   For us this is a BIG DEAL.   For the prosecution, its a Wednesday.   Josh is one person participating in downloading (some really sick) child porn.   he's not creating it (as far we know), he is not part of some higher up in a distribution ring.   he's the equivalent of busting a john when you are trying to prostitution.   He is literally not a priority.    They got to busting him when they could and now the case is going through the normal channels.   The investigators are on to the next case.   The prosecutors are working the case that goes to trial next week, not next year.  Josh is just a small time guy from rural Arkansas* who happens to come from a big family that had its 15 minutes of fame.   He's not really important.

 

*no offense to folks from rural Arkansas.   You are not all like the Duggars.   

[JoanArc]

Quote

BTK was also caught because he used his church's computer to type up letters to the police and EnCase found the Church's name in the metadata as the owner of the software.  These guys always think they are smarter than everyone else and they usually get caught. 

The article confirm it was Bittorrent use that reveled Josh's IP. This is pretty elementary and a completely boneheaded move for trying to stay anonymous online. Guess Josh never watched an expert hacker for an hour, so he could become an expert!

Edited August 11, 2021 by JoanArc

[zoomama]

21 hours ago, jcbrown said:

Thanks for the article. People may want to know that there are descriptions of some of the material the perv downloaded described in it. Smuggar should never, ever be around children.

 

thanks for the warning BOUT CONTENT. I REALLY STRUGGLED WHEN THIS FIRST BROKE AND I  -oooops sorry - dont want to revisit the hideousness of it again. 

[Zella]

4 hours ago, merylinkid said:

*no offense to folks from rural Arkansas. 

Thank you for the disclaimer and what you say about his case makes sense, but just want to note, he's not actually from rural Arkansas. He's in one of the largest metro areas in the state, with about 1/2 a million other people. As a resident of rural Arkansas, the way they lie and try to make it seem like they live in Mayberry when they don't has always annoyed me. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Zella

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, JoanArc said:

The article confirm it was Bittorrent use that reveled Josh's IP. This is pretty elementary and a completely boneheaded move for trying to stay anonymous online. Guess Josh never watched an expert hacker for an hour, so he could become an expert!

That's what really blows me away.  He was smart enough to realize that Christian eyes are watching you (or whatever the hell that program is called) is Windows based and can't see Linux partitions.  He's smart enough to dual boot a computer and create a Linux partition on it.  But he literally forgets to stop the ultimate authority (law enforcement) from seeing the bad stuff.  He stopped Jesus from detecting his illicit surfing but not the cops. Go figure. Maybe he should have gone to a tech college so he could actually learn something.

[JoanArc]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Thank you for the disclaimer and what you say about his case makes

sense, but just want to note, he's not actually from rural Arkansas. He's in one of the largest metro areas in the state, with about 1/2 a million other people. As a resident of rural Arkansas, the way they lie and try to make it seem like they live in Mayberry when they don't has always annoyed me. 

Me too, I’m not familiar with the area, but based on the satellite pictures I’ve looked at they are not living downtown in a major city, but it is not the middle of nowhere, either.

 

22 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

That's what really blows me away.  He was smart enough to realize that Christian eyes are watching you (or whatever the hell that program is called) is Windows based and can't see Linux partitions.  He's smart enough to dual boot a computer and create a Linux partition on it.  But he literally forgets to stop the ultimate authority (law enforcement) from seeing the bad stuff.  He stopped Jesus from detecting his illicit surfing but not the cops. Go figure. Maybe he should have gone to a tech college so he could actually learn something.

I’m sure he probably put tinfoil on the roof to keep God from peaking in. Plus, I guess they have not consumed enough fictional TV shows. Always use a burner cell phone, computer, Internet access, flash drive, etc. you could even use the dramatic breaking bad snapping the cell phone and a half action. There’s  encryption, too. It’s built into every operating system out there, takes 30 seconds to enable. That’s just pretty common knowledge at this point. Especially using something you can hide somewhere, or easily destroy without upsetting your life. I think it really is the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. He was trying to live a double life with half the work required.

[Zella]

Just now, JoanArc said:

Me too, I’m not familiar with the area, but based on the satellite pictures I’ve looked at they are not living downtown in a major city, but it is not the middle of nowhere, either.

Yep they're pretty much right on the edge, but the various cities that make up NWA are right there. They're a 10 minute drive from all sorts of opportunities that don't exist for people even a county or two over. 

Truthfully, even living in downtown NWA is obviously not like living in a big city, but as someone who spent all her life otherwise in small towns and the middle of nowhere, it's definitely not like living in those places either! 

[hathorlive]

9 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

I think it really is the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. He was trying to live a double life with half the work required.

Josh....Duggar...work = not compatible.  I think what really fries my fritters is that JB and Mechelle are still enabling him.  I think most of the kids aren't buying it anymore, let alone the public.  

8 minutes ago, Zella said:

Truthfully, even living in downtown NWA is obviously not like living in a big city, but as someone who spent all her life otherwise in small towns and the middle of nowhere, it's definitely not like living in those places either! 

I grew up in the middle of a national forest that Google didn't have images for up to last year.  The county doesn't have a stop light and we just got a McDonalds in 2008.  When you judge a city's size by the number of McDonald's they have, you know you are from a small town.  

My sister was born in Ozark, AR.  Now that is a rural town in the middle of nowhere.

[Temperance]

On 8/10/2021 at 4:07 AM, GeeGolly said:

Shit, there's a possible fall guy? That sucks. I was hoping for an air tight case.

I just (half) watched a 20/20 I recorded about BTK. I couldn't help but think of Josh here and there during the show. Not that I think Josh has murderous tendencies - I absolutely don't. But the fact that BTK was somewhat of an anomaly. He really didn't fit the profile of a serial killer, nor could they explain his abnormal sexual urges. And he was arrogant as fuck.

His now adult daughter said he was an average dad and the family had no idea he was the scary serial killer in their small hometown, although I do wonder if there were any small (or large) red flags they ignored and still can't consciously recognize. And ... she still loves her dad - her dad, not BTK. BTK himself explained his personalities as "cubing", much like compartmentalizing. He could commit a horrifically brutal crime and crawl back into a tent while camping with Boy Scouts, like nothing ever happened. Later, when describing his crimes, he had no shame, empathy or regret, just cold hearted arrogance.

Like I said, every once in while during the show on BTK, I thought of Josh. I think sometimes, no matter the circumstances some are born broken. I believe Josh would have been Josh regardless of what family he was born into. And I actually think his behaviors could have been worse if born into a different family, because most families aren't constantly spying on you. I'm not defending the cult lifestyle by any means, just saying in this circumstance, it might have actually prevented more harm.

 

I disagree. I'm not sure whether Josh would have turned out this way in a normal family. Maybe he would have, and maybe he wouldn't have. 

But I strongly disagree that the cult is the best to prevent this kind of abuse. There are so many reason why that is not true. On the one hand, the talk of purity and the false equivocations that all sexual sins are equal means that sexual assaults, child sex abuse material, etc. aren't seen worse as than other "sexual sins". Jessa showed this when she equated regular porn with the materials Josh watched.

Secondly the constant spying doesn't work and it teaches people to keep secrets. If everything is taboo, then people learn to hide things. Also it didn't work that they had spy software on the computer Josh was accessing the images. Josh found a way around it.

On the other hand, the Duggar kids seem way less supervised than most non-IBLP children. Most kids come from smaller families with fewer children-to-parent ratio, so it's easier for the parents to keep track of them.  They got to school, where there are teachers, hall monitors, etc. After school, most kids have activities with more adult supervision. They have many adults to watch them. The Duggars meanwhile had JB who was working, and Michelle was pregnant, and tired and burnt out from having to cook, clean, be pregnant, take of kids, homeschool, etc. 

[madpsych78]

This is just a theory, but I think that in a "normal" family Josh would probably have had those same desires but he could have probably gotten proper help sooner and they wouldn't have hidden behind fundamentalism.  

Consider that as far as we know, no other Duggar sons have similar issues. In addition, Josh is also the only first born son in that family, and so it's plausible that he is more susceptible to being enabled by virtue of being first born. So let's compare Josh to a first born son of another large, fundie family. The best example of that would be Zach Bates. And, Zach doesn't seem to have the same issues either. Thus, I am inclined to believe that some of Josh's issues are rooted within Josh himself, regardless of his family or his religious upbringing.

[GeeGolly]

33 minutes ago, Temperance said:

I disagree. I'm not sure whether Josh would have turned out this way in a normal family. Maybe he would have, and maybe he wouldn't have. 

But I strongly disagree that the cult is the best to prevent this kind of abuse. There are so many reason why that is not true. On the one hand, the talk of purity and the false equivocations that all sexual sins are equal means that sexual assaults, child sex abuse material, etc. aren't seen worse as than other "sexual sins". Jessa showed this when she equated regular porn with the materials Josh watched.

Secondly the constant spying doesn't work and it teaches people to keep secrets. If everything is taboo, then people learn to hide things. Also it didn't work that they had spy software on the computer Josh was accessing the images. Josh found a way around it.

On the other hand, the Duggar kids seem way less supervised than most non-IBLP children. Most kids come from smaller families with fewer children-to-parent ratio, so it's easier for the parents to keep track of them.  They got to school, where there are teachers, hall monitors, etc. After school, most kids have activities with more adult supervision. They have many adults to watch them. The Duggars meanwhile had JB who was working, and Michelle was pregnant, and tired and burnt out from having to cook, clean, be pregnant, take of kids, homeschool, etc. 

I agree that cults and the Duggar home are not a good environments.

I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I said in this circumstance, Josh's family environment may have kept him from causing more harm. Josh would have had a lot more freedom as a young adult if born into a typical family. He would have had access to more folks and more technology. Left completely unchecked, I think things could have been worse.

 

[Temperance]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree that cults and the Duggar home are not a good environments.

I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I said in this circumstance, Josh's family environment may have kept him from causing more harm. Josh would have had a lot more freedom as a young adult if born into a typical family. He would have had access to more folks and more technology. Left completely unchecked, I think things could have been worse.

 

No I didn't misunderstand. He had sexual abuse materials of small children; it couldn't be worse than that. All those protections in place did nothing to prevent him from getting the materials!

He was able to access porn as a child. His siblings all used computers. Maybe his parents were more responsible than some others, but many mainstream parents manage to raise kids and either set limits or don't have these problems with the children. 

He had a device and access to the internet and that's really all he needed. What could have been worse about it? He had 65 images. Maybe his collection would have grown if the feds hadn't caught on and raided his warehouse when they did. I see no evidence that the cult or his upbringing made this problem better

Edited August 12, 2021 by Temperance

[GeeGolly]

11 minutes ago, Temperance said:

No I didn't misunderstand. He had sexual abuse materials of small children; it couldn't be wose than that. All those protections in place did nothing to prevent him from getting the materials! 

He was able to access porn as a child. His siblings all used computers. Maybe his parents were more responsible than some others, but many mainstream parents manage to raise kids and either set limits or don't have these problems with the children. 

I see no evidence that the cult or his upbringing made this problem better.

Oh, okay, we can agree to disagree on this one.

I agree that most mainstream parents do manage to raise kids without these problems, but most kids raised in a cult don't have these problems either. I'm guessing most folks who commit these crimes weren't raised in cults, because most folks aren't raised in cults. Being raised in a cult, or being raised by JB & M even, doesn't seem to increase the odds of being a sexual criminal.

As far as accessing porn on a computer as a teenager, I'm guessing many mainstream kids have as well. 

I just think with more freedom, things could have escalated sooner and been far worse by the time Josh reached his 30s.

[Absolom]

5 hours ago, Temperance said:

No I didn't misunderstand. He had sexual abuse materials of small children; it couldn't be worse than that. All those protections in place did nothing to prevent him from getting the materials!

To me it would be worse if he were producing the material rather than collecting and viewing.  Josh could have turned into a serial rapist/murderer and that would have been worse.  

I think Josh was a bad seed and I can see it both ways.  His upbringing may have kept him somewhat in check or his parents over sexualization of life could have spurred him on.  I don't expect to get an answer from them.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Absolom said:

To me it would be worse if he were producing the material rather than collecting and viewing.  Josh could have turned into a serial rapist/murderer and that would have been worse.  

I think Josh was a bad seed and I can see it both ways.  His upbringing may have kept him somewhat in check or his parents over sexualization of life could have spurred him on.  I don't expect to get an answer from them.

It shouldn't be forgotten that many predators escalate over time because their drive requires ever increasing "thrills" for satisfaction.   Not uncommon for looks to eventually tempt to touches, etc.   All the monsters should be regarded as scary.

[floridamom]

I'm concerned about the well-being of M7. The stress that Anna has been under and is still under while having this child can't be very good for this baby. I hope all goes well for her birth.

[Scarlett45]

On 8/11/2021 at 6:53 PM, hathorlive said:

That's what really blows me away.  He was smart enough to realize that Christian eyes are watching you (or whatever the hell that program is called) is Windows based and can't see Linux partitions.  He's smart enough to dual boot a computer and create a Linux partition on it.  But he literally forgets to stop the ultimate authority (law enforcement) from seeing the bad stuff.  He stopped Jesus from detecting his illicit surfing but not the cops. Go figure. Maybe he should have gone to a tech college so he could actually learn something.

I honestly believe that Josh didnt think law enforcement would be looking at him/care what he was doing. If my theory holds, Josh was interested in protecting his activities from his FAMILY, namely Anna and JB- not law enforcement. He likely never thought there would be legal repercussions from his activity. 

 

On 8/11/2021 at 1:57 PM, merylinkid said:

Yep I've said this before and I'll say it again -- we are putting more thought into this case than the prosecution is right now.   For us this is a BIG DEAL.   For the prosecution, its a Wednesday.   Josh is one person participating in downloading (some really sick) child porn.   he's not creating it (as far we know), he is not part of some higher up in a distribution ring.   he's the equivalent of busting a john when you are trying to prostitution.   He is literally not a priority.    They got to busting him when they could and now the case is going through the normal channels.   The investigators are on to the next case.   The prosecutors are working the case that goes to trial next week, not next year.  Josh is just a small time guy from rural Arkansas* who happens to come from a big family that had its 15 minutes of fame.   He's not really important.

 

*no offense to folks from rural Arkansas.   You are not all like the Duggars.   

I agree with you.

 

On 8/12/2021 at 8:48 AM, Absolom said:

I think Josh was a bad seed and I can see it both ways.  His upbringing may have kept him somewhat in check or his parents over sexualization of life could have spurred him on.  I don't expect to get an answer from them.

I too think Josh was a bad seed. I think Josh's upbringing kept him leading a more insular life, and thus his victims were people very close to him (but that is often the case with predators). With a "mainstream upbringing" I could see Josh as the guy who sexually assaulted his dates and was on a first name basis with the person who had a stash of roofies, but may have left his sisters alone. 

You are right @Absolom- we will never know.

5 hours ago, floridamom said:

I'm concerned about the well-being of M7. The stress that Anna has been under and is still under while having this child can't be very good for this baby. I hope all goes well for her birth.

Yes. I do have concern for all of the M-kids. Especially the older ones who know something is not quite right with this entire situation although they havent been told the entire story I am sure. I also wouldnt want anything to go wrong with M-7's birth for the baby's sake. Anna has already been through this dog and pony show. Josh showed his colors 6 yrs ago when she was pregnant with Meredith.

[awaken]

11 hours ago, floridamom said:

I'm concerned about the well-being of M7. The stress that Anna has been under and is still under while having this child can't be very good for this baby. I hope all goes well for her birth.

What sad circumstances to be born into. I feel the same about sweet Meredith. Their births are inextricably entwined with their father’s terrible misdeeds. 

[Westiepeach]

I keep forgetting that Anna is pregnant with M7. Yikes. Poor baby…

[Heathen]

17 minutes ago, awaken said:

What sad circumstances to be born into. I feel the same about sweet Meredith. Their births are inextricably entwined with their father’s terrible misdeeds. 

All the kids are. For their entire lives, it'll be "son of Josh Duggar, fallen reality TV star who possessed child porn and molested his own sisters." That might as well be their names. 

In a way, it's a good thing the Ms are in a cult and will probably never go to school. 

[jcbrown]

Can someone please remind me when M7 is due?

[dargosmydaddy]

16 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

Can someone please remind me when M7 is due?

When she announced, Anna only said "fall."

[satrunrose]

On 8/11/2021 at 8:53 PM, hathorlive said:

That's what really blows me away.  He was smart enough to realize that Christian eyes are watching you (or whatever the hell that program is called) is Windows based and can't see Linux partitions.  He's smart enough to dual boot a computer and create a Linux partition on it.  But he literally forgets to stop the ultimate authority (law enforcement) from seeing the bad stuff.  He stopped Jesus from detecting his illicit surfing but not the cops. Go figure. Maybe he should have gone to a tech college so he could actually learn something.

I can see it, although it doesn't make a lick of logical sense. In all of his past misdeeds, Josh hasn't faced any consequences from law enforcement. All of the consequences (as useless or even damaging as they were) have come from his community (including the tip to In Touch, if I'm remembering correctly). Plus he had been living on the bounty of Jim Bob for years at the point he got caught. I can see why the risk of his father finding out (or of Anna finding out and telling JB) seemed way worse than the abstract threat of the law.

[MargeGunderson]

I think it was a matter of odds, too. Not every who downloads child abuse videos or pictures is caught; probably most of people who download it aren’t caught. Josh played the odds and lost. 

[jcbrown]

1 hour ago, dargosmydaddy said:

When she announced, Anna only said "fall."

Thanks. That's what I remembered, too. Wasn't sure if there was any more specific info.

[farmgal4]

11 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I honestly believe that Josh didnt think law enforcement would be looking at him/care what he was doing. If my theory holds, Josh was interested in protecting his activities from his FAMILY, namely Anna and JB- not law enforcement. He likely never thought there would be legal repercussions from his activity. 

 

I agree with you.

 

I too think Josh was a bad seed. I think Josh's upbringing kept him leading a more insular life, and thus his victims were people very close to him (but that is often the case with predators). With a "mainstream upbringing" I could see Josh as the guy who sexually assaulted his dates and was on a first name basis with the person who had a stash of roofies, but may have left his sisters alone. 

You are right @Absolom- we will never know.

Yes. I do have concern for all of the M-kids. Especially the older ones who know something is not quite right with this entire situation although they havent been told the entire story I am sure. I also wouldnt want anything to go wrong with M-7's birth for the baby's sake. Anna has already been through this dog and pony show. Josh showed his colors 6 yrs ago when she was pregnant with Meredith.

If Josh is sent to prison for several years, I wonder what Anna will tell the children?  I think she would want the kids to visit him while he’s there.  What a shit storm the SOB has caused.