S05.E01: Queen Victoria Syndrome

[Straycat80]

I liked this first episode. How sad that people looked at the queen as ‘old’ and she was only 65 years old in 1991. 
I’m so far not feeling the recast of Charles and Anne. 

[anniebird]

There’s a continuity error at the end of the episode at the Ghillies ball. Diana is shown leaving the room with the two boys and then she’s immediately on the dance floor in the background.

[Lorna Mae]

5 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

I think one thing that the show gets right (and which irritates me to no end, IRL) is that it's very easy to eyeroll Diana's wish to go shopping, but also: it's arguably part of her royal "job". How many public events does she go to? And she is expected to look and act perfectly at every single one? In the 80s/90s, the royals may well have had "dressers" (or valets, etc.), but "stylists" were several years into the future. It is part of Diana's PR role to be fashionable, to be beautiful, to be decorative, so shopping, for her, is not necessarily a frivolous pursuit.

Right on! Plus which, it’s diplomatic. Diana was a fashion icon, and yes, a known shopaholic. If she had stopped at Capri and not even visited any shops, that would have been seen as a major dis.

[Magnumfangirl]

I'm not digging the new cast at all.  That guy playing Phillip seems older and dowdier than the real Phillip did in his 90s.  I don't think they've got the makeup right for Liz either, but Jonny Lee Miller is stealing the show as the PM.   

[CharlizeCat]

Was this episode sponsored by Jaguar? Not too impressed with the new cast, but I do think I like the new queen. But, it's only the first episode, so I will stick with it for a while. 

[Blakeston]

7 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

But also: ok, so Chuck has to go home to speak at the college; why does everyone else ALSO have to leave? Makes zero sense to me. Diana and the kids had no role at that function!

I think the idea was that if Charles left them alone in the middle of the "second honeymoon," it would look like they were having marital problems. But if they appeared to be jointly deciding to come home early because of a speaking opportunity, it wouldn't look that way.

I didn't have a problem adjusting to the new actors at the beginning of season three, but I'm having a really hard time with it this season. I think it's because so many of these actors don't resemble the people they're playing, or the previous actors.

Imelda Staunton is a great actress, but that is not the queen's face at all. The Queen Mother's body type is completely wrong. Dominic West looks nothing like Charles. And Elizabeth Debicki is towering over him (and just about everyone else) when Charles and Diana were actually the same height.

[GHScorpiosRule]

AYIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am kicking myself for asking "Umbridge?" and for those of you who reminded me. And now that's ALL who I see when watching Staunton as Queen Elizabeth! She doesn't even have the speech pattern that Claire Foy does so admirably.

And yes! Love, love LOVE it whenever we see Claire as Queen Elizabeth.

West is SO not Prince Charles. And from everything I had ever read here, and in other pieces, he's never wanted his mother to abdicate so he could be King. Right? I mean, here, he sounded like a petulant boy who wanted the shiniest toy.

And "too old"? What, did the public want a young monarch ruler? I was just rolling my eyes at the way everyone was stumbling and rushing to make sure that the Queen didn't see that front page poll in The Sunday Times.

Miller is KILLING it as Prime Minister.

Aside from the sound of her voice, I'm not feeling Debickie as Diana. She's so tall that it looks like she's constantly, as Diana, scrunching her neck/head to look smaller? It looks awkward and her head is always at an odd angle. Except when she's sitting.

[dubbel zout]

Diana was always scrunching down so she wouldn't look taller than Charles. It's why she wore low heels while they were married. 

I think Debicki and Emma Corrin both overplayed the lowered chin and eyes up gesture, especially when Diana is in private.

[Dejana]

John Major is one of those famous figures from my childhood whom I thought of as "really old" at the time, but now I can see it was just the white hair. I'm really enjoying Jonny Lee Miller in the role so far. 

I've watched a show where the timeline spanned several decades, This Is Us, which used a mix of aging up/down the regulars and strategically casting lookalike actors, to varying degrees of success. Even if that approach was an option for The Crown, I'm not sure they'd have wanted to take it. They seem to use the recasts to bring out whichever personality traits the writers want to emphasize at the moment.

Emma Corrin was shorter than the real Diana, when the show wanted to emphasize her youth/vulnerability and portay how overwhelmed she felt by the system. When the story reaches the years where Diana truly took on The Firm and found her voice, they get the 6'3" Elizabeth Debicki and revel in it.

Similarly, when the story portrayed Charles as awkward, insecure and cowed by authority, they got an actor (also IMO more handsome than the real deal) who could bring out those qualities. I'm sure Dominic West wasn’t really the only actor The Crown could find for Charles, but he probably fits in with this season's vision of the character. Whether viewers believe that image is compatible with real life, is another thing...

[Ellaria]

51 minutes ago, Dejana said:

They seem to use the recasts to bring out whichever personality traits the writers want to emphasize at the moment.

Emma Corrin was shorter than the real Diana, when the show wanted to emphasize her youth/vulnerability and portay how overwhelmed she felt by the system. When the story reaches the years where Diana truly took on The Firm and found her voice, they get the 6'3" Elizabeth Debicki and revel in it.

Similarly, when the story portrayed Charles as awkward, insecure and cowed by authority, they got an actor (also IMO more handsome than the real deal) who could bring out those qualities. I'm sure Dominic West wasn’t really the only actor The Crown could find for Charles, but he probably fits in with this season's vision of the character. Whether viewers believe that image is compatible with real life, is another thing...

Well said and quite perceptive. I completely agree that these roles are cast to support the perspective that the writing will take for that season.

[Miss chi chi]

I had a boss who would criticize your idea and then take a group vote. It was humiliating and I really felt for Diana during the shopping/boat scene. I don’t like Dominic as Charles. 

[One Imaginary Girl]

1 hour ago, Dejana said:

They seem to use the recasts to bring out whichever personality traits the writers want to emphasize at the moment.

Totally in agreement.  I thought that, at least in her first season, Olivia Colman's queen seemed much colder than Claire Foy's.  Not a comment on OC, of course, but the writing.  That was when there were the episodes about her reluctance to go to Aberfan and her treatment of Charles around the time of his investiture as Prince of Wales.

[jeansheridan]

On 11/9/2022 at 11:41 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

So far, I like the tone that the narrative is taking. John Major is clearly aware that the Windsors are a house of house of cards right now.

Johnny Lee Miller is such a wonderfully alert actor. He expressed a lot without saying a lot. His stare at Charles was wonderful .

Imelda is an ideal elder Queen. Sharp and strong. I keep hoping they would allow Elizabeth's alleged humor to come through. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by jeansheridan

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And "too old"? What, did the public want a young monarch ruler? I was just rolling my eyes at the way everyone was stumbling and rushing to make sure that the Queen didn't see that front page poll in The Sunday Times.

Though I guess if your job is the queen, that would be your major job that day. That said, so silly to think the Queen needed to be young. Leaving aside that people would never say that about a 65 year old man (remember Churchill?), who really thought it was important that the Queen know be hip? It's not like Charles, at any age, was going to particularly more tied into the feelings of the people, being raised in that family and fabulously wealthy.

[jeansheridan]

On 11/9/2022 at 10:02 PM, BloomsburyRez said:

This.  Something has been bugging me since I watched it and this scene encapsulates what I didn’t like about the new Queen portrayal (I still like Imelda Staunton so maybe she was directed to act like this?). But in the previous four seasons she is always portrayed as competent. Even when things were kept from her she would figure it out and stand up for herself. In this she’s like a spoiled girl asking for a pony when discussing the yacht. Or cooing to Phillip just a few more appearances then giggle giggle she can rest (as opposed to other times shown with a grueling tour schedule say where she flat out acknowledges she’s fatigued but what can you do). The other two Queens would have figured out the newspaper and not walked off confused but “oh well”

I saw this much differently.  She knew something was up with the papers but bided her time. She knew they were being weird. So did Anne. 

And being cheery about vacation seems...human? Not petty.

Her hardline with John Major did seem a bit less diplomatic. That ship is a luxury of course. Saying otherwise is definitely being tone-deaf. 

That said, I am here to see a sharp 65 year old taking care of business. She and Philip are very capable still. Their generation was made of different stuff. 

Also I liked the vibe between Elizabeth and Anne. They felt more like companions. Buddies. Apparently they did get on well.

[blackwing]

I'm happy the show is back.  Of course this episode was in the can long before the Queen died, but I was still surprised at how negative everything was.  The Queen was portrayed as out-of-touch, clueless about why spending lots of money on her yacht would look bad.  Has more money than Croesus but balked when John Major suggested she pay for the repairs herself, and in the end, forced him to approve the government spending.  Charles and Diana are already at the "powder keg waiting to blow" stage.  Andrew and Anne's marriages are also crumbling.  Philip is being portrayed as kind of senile, rather than unfiltered.

I've only watched just this first episode so far, and I'm hoping I will get used to the cast.  I echo many of the comments above.  I'm having a hard time seeing anything but Dolores Umbridge as the Queen.  Dominic West is all wrong for Charles.  Elizabeth Debicki to me is doing a good job, but she's too tall, which isn't her fault.  I would have thought the show would try to disguise it more (like have West stand on a box Tom Cruise-style) but there was at least one scene where the height difference seems like half a foot.

Those who follow the royal family way more than me would know, but are the depictions of Philip and Anne correct from an age perspective?  This is late 1991 so I believe Philip is about 70 and Anne is about 40.  The makeup/hair make Philip look like he is 90 and Anne like a dowdy 60.  Like others said, it's hard to distinguish between Anne and Margaret.

The boy they have who plays Harry looks exactly like how I remember Harry as a boy.  Great casting.

On 11/9/2022 at 1:57 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

Why, hello there, Claire Foy.  Nice to see you. 

It was nice to see her, but I really hope she doesn't win another Guest Actress Emmy for this two minute role.  There should be some kind of criteria to delineate what is a cameo and what is a guest actress.

[Roseanna]

16 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Andrew and Anne's marriages are also crumbling. 

Yes, but they can't blame their parents as they chose their spouses themselves.

[freeser]

15 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Imelda Staunton is a great actress, but that is not the queen's face at all. The Queen Mother's body type is completely wrong. 

I agree totally about both actresses.  Imelda's rather puffy cheeks are what strikes me as such a departure from the Queen's face.  Imelda is the proper age and build, but her face just isn't right.

I actually did not understand for a while that the other lady was the Queen Mother.  She did not look like her, her hair was totally wrong but most of all it was the body type.  The actual Queen Mum was certainly not thin -she was 'pleasantly plump'.  They at least could have added some padding to make her body type correct.  

[greekmom]

Charles as modern? hahahahaha.
I still cannot stand Camilla.
Thank you boys. Charles is an ass. What's wrong with combining shopping with viewing archeological sites?m And I don't buy that beyotch Camilla does not like to shop.
Charles is an ass. If i didn't mention that.
I love how John Majors handles Charlie.
You know how Prince Selim became the drunkard even though his father was the Magnificent?
I can see Charles become the forgotten or the place holder.
Major's speech was good. He could have summed up as "these people are cuckoo for cocoa puff."
 

[Peace 47]

I used to hate shopping (love it now), but when I was in Europe on business with a couple of work friends when I was starting my career, we compromised and did both museums (which they found kind of boring) and shopping during our 2 free days.  It’s not hard, Charles, to make people happy and included, and we only had 2 days, not 2 weeks.

I read a non-spoiler review of this season that said this season was sympathetic to both Charles and Diana, but it’s hard to see that on the horizon when this is how Charles is introduced.

I’m surprised that more commenters here aren’t writing that they know Johnny Lee Miller as Sherlock Holmes in Elementary (or his ancient history marriage to Angelina Jolie, lol).  That show was on CBS for years.  Agree that he is killing it as John Major.  I will also go against the grain and say that Elizabeth Debecki is working for me as Diana at that stage of Diana’s life.

[PeterPirate]

The reference to Ukraine was a nice touch.

[Roseanna]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:44 AM, Lorna Mae said:

Right on! Plus which, it’s diplomatic. Diana was a fashion icon, and yes, a known shopaholic. If she had stopped at Capri and not even visited any shops, that would have been seen as a major dis.

Her "job" was to use clothes of *British* designers and thus advertise them. 

[Milburn Stone]

I really like West's Charles, but that could be because I no longer assume that anything about this show is real. I've given up hoping for verisimilitude--or fidelity to actual events--and am happy just to see a villain being played to the hilt by a great actor.

[qtpye]

On 11/10/2022 at 8:37 AM, sugarbaker design said:

This!  Charles has always been a person from another time with a posh accent, a haughty attitude, and an off-putting demeanor.  DW captures only one of these qualities.

On 11/10/2022 at 3:20 PM, tennisgurl said:

I cant imagine that Charles would very much like this portrayal of him, but at least he can take solace in the fact that Dominic West is a thousand times more handsome than he could ever hope to be. 

Its really too bad that Charles and Diana cant at least have a sort of working relationship where they can play happy family for the cameras and be civil to each other but mostly do their own thing behind closed doors, but sadly Diana desperately wants to be loved and Charles is a toxic mix of arrogance and insecurity so this was always going to be a mess. Their vacation plans really show how incompatible they are, they are just really different and want very different things. Its like when in a previous season they both got each other Christmas gifts that they personally would love but that the other didn't care for, they just don't get each other. Not helped by the fact that Charles was being a huge dick in this episode, being condescending and cruel to his wife, desperately trying to grab power because of one stupid poll, and endlessly whining to his friend who has a seriously ill child, which he he realized was a crappy thing to do. It was sweet when William and Harry stood up for their mom, but its sad that they had to do that and that their stuck in the middle of their parents marital problems. 

Poor John Major. He was prepared for dealing with the economy, the opposition party, and foreign affairs, but not being stuck in the middle of royal family drama. 

Claire Foy! Great seeing her for just a minute, she's still my favorite queen. 

On 11/11/2022 at 6:21 PM, greekmom said:

Charles as modern? hahahahaha.
I still cannot stand Camilla.
Thank you boys. Charles is an ass. What's wrong with combining shopping with viewing archeological sites?m And I don't buy that beyotch Camilla does not like to shop.
Charles is an ass. If i didn't mention that.
I love how John Majors handles Charlie.
You know how Prince Selim became the drunkard even though his father was the Magnificent?
I can see Charles become the forgotten or the place holder.
Major's speech was good. He could have summed up as "these people are cuckoo for cocoa puff."
 

I would like to write a couple of words that I never thought would go together.

Why is Prince Charles so sexy?

Also, why did they make Princess Diana look like a sad ostrich?

Clair Foy was amazing in her role. She communicated so much through her eyes.

They have usually on out of their way to make the queen look good. When the Queen actually uttered the line about how sad she was that she inherited three palaces she could not make "her own" and therefore taxpayers should pay for yacht repairs, I was astounded.

It has to be the most out of the thing I have ever heard a person say.

However, it did not seem slanderous. I imagine this is the way the queen would feel at this time after (in her mind) sacrificing so much for the country. 

Again...

Why is Prince Charles so sexy?

[paramitch]

I'm very happy with Imelda Staunton, who despite her brilliance as Umbridge, has disappeared into this role for me. I just see the Queen. And honestly, for me she is already much more convincing than Olivia Colman ever was. And looks much closer to the role for me in how she carries herself.

I also prefer Elizabeth Debicki to Emma Corrin's Diana -- she looks and moves in ways that are more Diana-esque to me so far. Dominic West is okay as Charles, even though I agree he's way, way too handsome for the part. I am delighted to hear West actually using a UK accent, however, since I'm most familiar with him from "The Wire" and "The Affair."

I always adore Jonathan Pryce -- like, for decades now -- but I admit I wasn't seeing him as Philip necessarily. However, he's great in the role so has proven me wrong (although I do miss the warmth that Tobias Menzies brought to Philip -- so far, he remains my favorite Philip across the show).

Meanwhile, I was thrilled to see Jonny Lee Miller here -- for those unfamiliar with him, he is a terrific actor who can play anything required, and whose awards include an Olivier for his stage work in 2012's Frankenstein (shared with Benedict Cumberbatch -- with whom he would alternate the role of scientist and monster nightly), as well as BAFTA and SAG nominations. He's one of those warhorses -- he can play anything anyone needs him to, and he's a quiet, unshowy, dependable actor. He was just wonderful (and very moving) on TV's "Elementary," and a fantastically scary incel villain on Season 5 of "Dexter."

I felt bad for Diana when Charles didn't want to shop, but I also felt a little bit secretly bad for Charles, because shopping is just torture for me and I hate every moment of it. Ugh. 

My main takeaway here was how sad the Charles/Diana situation is. He's openly treating it like a PR situation, and she seems caught between believing it really is a second honeymoon, and simply wanting to give that appearance but knowing the truth.

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, paramitch said:

I always adore Jonathan Pryce -- like, for decades now -- but I admit I wasn't seeing him as Philip necessarily. However, he's great in the role so has proven me wrong (although I do miss the warmth that Tobias Menzies brought to Philip -- so far, he remains my favorite Philip across the show).

He almost feels like Dennis Thatcher in the way that he lovingly supports the Queen.

[dubbel zout]

15 hours ago, paramitch said:

I felt bad for Diana when Charles didn't want to shop

The problem isn't that Charles didn't want to shop—I doubt Diana expected him to—but that all of the activities he was planning for the vacation were what he wanted to do.

[Ziggy]

On 11/9/2022 at 9:47 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

I'm having a problem identifying between her (Anne) and her aunt, Princess Margaret.  

I'm so glad I'm not the only one :-)

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

The problem isn't that Charles didn't want to shop—I doubt Diana expected him to—but that all of the activities he was planning for the vacation were what he wanted to do.

Yes. Historical places are more interesting to people who already know about them (in Capri about Tiberius and Axel Munthe) or the guide must be very good. In addition, some of the kids were clearly too young.

[AZChristian]

Been on vacation and just got to start watching Season 5.  I'm distracted by "Charles'" mouth movements.  They don't look to me like the real Charles' typical facial gesture.

And it's distracting to see a woman who is 6'3" in real life having to duck her head down so much so she can look up through her lashes at men who are much shorter.  

Loving Imelda as the queen and Jonny Lee Miller is doing a great job as the PM.  I wonder whether John Major had to have stitches frequently from biting his tongue while dealing with the royals.

[Marley]

19 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Been on vacation and just got to start watching Season 5.  I'm distracted by "Charles'" mouth movements.  They don't look to me like the real Charles' typical facial gesture.

Yes it’s the actor Dominic West. He always does this weird annoying thing with his mouth. He did it on The Wire the whole time as well but it wasn’t as annoying then. He doesn’t work as Charles at all.

[paramitch]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The problem isn't that Charles didn't want to shop—I doubt Diana expected him to—but that all of the activities he was planning for the vacation were what he wanted to do.

Oh, I agree that he was being a total prat. I was just making a joke that I hate shopping. 

I do think this was one of those effective scenes that felt very real to me, though -- the fact that the two of them had absolutely nothing in common, no interests that remotely converged, and nothing to talk about. 

I always found it fascinating that Charles paints these very very tiny intricate watercolor paintings, everything contained and perfect. To me it says everything about the kind of person he is -- if Diana had painted, I think she would have painted big, beautiful brash oil paintings with tons of emotion and color. The two of them were just oil and water.

[answerphone]

I’m bothered by Imelda Staunton’s perky, bright eyes.  
 

She must have had a lift, which is perfectly fine, but the Queen’s face would look more realistic  with naturally aging eyelids. 
 

OK, I know I’m picky. 🙃

[Camera One]

This episode was alright.  It was beautifully filmed as usual, though some of the brighter shots looked a bit overexposed.  

As the show gets closer to current day, it feels harder for me to become immersed in the story when I think about how they are providing a certain narrative about real people without their consent.  Making up a "Sunday Times" headline that didn't exist to cause a fictional conflict over abdication might have been a convenient way to frame a story, but the analytical part of my brain made it difficult for me to properly respond to the story on an emotional level.

It took me awhile to adjust to the new cast in Season 3.  Back then, I felt the characters weren't acting the same as they used to, especially the Queen.  This time, I didn't get that sense as much, though I'm still not used to the new cast.  

I didn't find anyone particularly likeable in this one.  The Queen seemed entitled, Charles seemed power hungry and Diana seemed catty.  

Hopefully, the season will improve as I get used to the cast.

[andromeda331]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:05 PM, Peace 47 said:

I’m surprised that more commenters here aren’t writing that they know Johnny Lee Miller as Sherlock Holmes in Elementary (or his ancient history marriage to Angelina Jolie, lol).  That show was on CBS for years.  Agree that he is killing it as John Major.  I will also go against the grain and say that Elizabeth Debecki is working for me as Diana at that stage of Diana’s life.

That's where I know him mostly from. I still watch Elementary reruns all the time. He's doing a great job as John Major but a couple times he sounded like Sherlock.

[CrowTRobot]

On 11/11/2022 at 10:12 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I am kicking myself for asking "Umbridge?" and for those of you who reminded me. And now that's ALL who I see when watching Staunton as Queen Elizabeth! She doesn't even have the speech pattern that Claire Foy does so admirably.

I am slowly getting over the Umbridge thing but the thing I can't get over is how tiny Imelda Staunton is!  She is a full 4 inches shorter than the Queen was that time and it's driving me even crazier than the super-tall Diana in the show.  The interwebs say QEII was 5'4 at the time (apparently 5'1 at the time of her passing) and Staunton is purported to be 5'0 though I find it very hard to believe she is even that tall.  She looks ridiculously tiny compared to all the other actors.

[Sarnia]

On 11/12/2022 at 3:05 AM, Peace 47 said:

I’m surprised that more commenters here aren’t writing that they know Johnny Lee Miller as Sherlock Holmes in Elementary

Yes! I know JLM only from Elementary. I've watched every single episodes, and still didn't recognized him as John Major! I didn't know he was in the cast and I absolutely did not make the connection. He's doing a great job, I'm still on the fence with the rest of the cast so far.

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/12/2022 at 8:46 PM, paramitch said:

Meanwhile, I was thrilled to see Jonny Lee Miller here -- for those unfamiliar with him, he is a terrific actor who can play anything required, and whose awards include an Olivier for his stage work in 2012's Frankenstein (shared with Benedict Cumberbatch -- with whom he would alternate the role of scientist and monster nightly), as well as BAFTA and SAG nominations. He's one of those warhorses -- he can play anything anyone needs him to, and he's a quiet, unshowy, dependable actor. He was just wonderful (and very moving) on TV's "Elementary," and a fantastically scary incel villain on Season 5 of "Dexter."

I don't know him from anything else, but I love his John Major. The way he's able to communicate with very small gestures his mixture of deference, contempt, and resentment for being underestimated.

[Oosala]

On 11/12/2022 at 6:46 PM, paramitch said:

I am delighted to hear West actually using a UK accent

That is not a put-on accent.  He is British.  He is from Sheffield.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/11/2022 at 2:08 PM, jeansheridan said:

Also I liked the vibe between Elizabeth and Anne. They felt more like companions. Buddies. Apparently they did get on well.

Just as Queen Victoria, who was quite difficult, got along well with her eldest daughter.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Oosala said:

That is not a put-on accent.  He is British.  He is from Sheffield.

I think they meant it's nice he doesn't have to pretend to be American.

[merylinkid]

On 11/13/2022 at 1:19 PM, dubbel zout said:

The problem isn't that Charles didn't want to shop—I doubt Diana expected him to—but that all of the activities he was planning for the vacation were what he wanted to do.

Yes that is the biggest issue.   "Oh this is billed as second honeymoon and is DEFINITELY a family vacation, let me plan ALLLLLL the activities with no thought for what anyone else might like."      Which was the basic problem with Diana and Charles.   They had nothing in common and had trouble seeing the other person's POV.   

[RunningMarket]

I'll give it a couple of more episodes, but not feeling the new cast yet. Johnathon Pryce is totally wrong for Philip - his voice is way too distinctive. And I'm guessing 90% of these conversations shown never took place. Diana saying all 3 marriages wouldn't last another 6 months - to the Prime Minister? Doubtful.

[CountryGirl]

Like others, it is going to take some getting used to the new cast with the exception of Elizabeth's Diana. A bit too tall, but my goodness, she has me doing double-takes and the voice is so eerily spot-on. 

Jonathan is The High Sparrow for me.

Imelda is still Dolores Umbridge. 

Charles is Noah Fucking Salloway.

Claudia's Anne seems the same age as her mother/Aunt Margaret and hopefully, we'll see more of that dry wit and humor that Erin had as younger Anne.

Lesley's Margaret has some big shoes to fill between Vanessa and Helena. As with Claudia, I'm hoping we'll see more of Margaret's personality.

I think it's hard because so many of the first 4 seasons' actors were so well-cast. Admittedly, it took me a little bit to get used to Oliva vs Claire but by E3, I saw her as QEII. But Tobias, I loved from the first episode as he has the chameleon quality to embody whoever (see also his dual role of Frank Randall and Black Jack Randall in Outlander). Josh and Emma were so wonderful as Chuck and Di. 

I think, quite frankly, we were spoiled with the earlier casting and I'm not sure I'm going to warm to the others but I'm only two episodes in, so I'll withhold final judgment until season's end. 

[Razzberry]

Worst ensemble casting ever, with  Charles and the Queen Mum tied for the prize.  It's almost funny. What happened, did Peter Morgan get burned out?  Did they run out of actors?  Was it cast by the Helen Keller Foundation?  

I've only watched this one and half of the second episode all week.  Not since season 5 of Mad Men have I felt so let down.  The magic is gone.  

[Mellowyellow]

I didn't even think there was a Margaret and Queen Mother until I read this thread. I thought it was some random lady and a skinny, batty old lady who was her mum.

I was actually asking myself: Where is the Queen Mother? Why do they have this batty relative hanging out with them? 😬🙈

[Adiba]

On 11/10/2022 at 3:05 AM, Roseanna said:

...except they are boring.

But I quite agree that Charles misbehaved.

My mil used to travel with a group of women friends, as her partner hated traveling. One woman in the group always insisted on a shopping day in their itinerary— while the other uninterested parties could do something else. Nothing wrong with compromising— except it’s not Charles’ thing, apparently.

I’m finding the new Charles to be a little too good-looking for the part—real Charles is sort of awkward-looking, imo.

[Inquisitionist]

On 11/10/2022 at 11:36 PM, Blakeston said:

I didn't have a problem adjusting to the new actors at the beginning of season three, but I'm having a really hard time with it this season. I think it's because so many of these actors don't resemble the people they're playing, or the previous actors.

As someone who never bought Olivia Coleman as Elizabeth and thought Helena B-C verged on camp as Margaret, I'm liking the new casting well enough.  

On 11/11/2022 at 11:17 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

Well said and quite perceptive. I completely agree that these roles are cast to support the perspective that the writing will take for that season.

When an actress's towering height becomes a distraction, I don't think it's supporting the writing at all. 

Lovely to see Clarie Foy again.  She set the bar very high in seasons 1 and 2. 

[CeeBeeGee]

On 11/9/2022 at 8:42 PM, One Imaginary Girl said:

I know this was shot well before September, but I admire that the show went with an episode so critical of the Queen. Takes some nerve to think that that huge yacht was a benefit to the country and not the royals personally.

Right?!

On 11/9/2022 at 8:44 PM, Hanya2 said:

Would Diana really be trashing Charles to someone who wasn't a close friend? I would think she would be very formal to the Prime Minister. 

That seems like strange writing, unless it's just a plot trick that all the royal family is unloading on the Prime Minister.

That did seem strange, I didn't buy it for a second. 

*Nice to see Claire Foy again! It looks like the footage behind her was archival.

*Cousin Norton is the grandson of the guy played by Charles Danse, Philip's uncle and Charles' mentor, the Earl of Mountbatten. So he and Charles are second cousins.

*Ugh, I want to side-eye Diana for involving the boys in her Charles drama (when she thanked Harry) but Charles really started it by putting her down so publicly.** As much as I love Diana, I don't like how she drew them in--as though they were peers and not two children.

**And what is the BFD about shopping? Diana's visit to a store could put that store into the black for the year. She was a huge boost for economies--that's a good thing.

*Fellowes, the guy who answered the phone on the Brittania, is Robert Fellowes, at that time private secretary to the Queen. He is also married to Diana's older sister, Jane.

*Comparing ER to Queen Victoria is very unfair. Victoria withdrew almost completely from the public after Albert died--the criticism was just. The phrase "Queen Victoria Syndrome" just smacks of ageism, as ER was still very active in this period, as the montage shows.

*Charles: And...I hope the same can be said of me...

Major: ...

[Deskisamess]

Not crazy about the cast so far. I can't recall seeing Diana always pursing her lips while hunching over like a vulture.  I think the actress is over-playing it. Don't like DW as Charles. And I'm not sure the Queen was so angry looking all the time.

Not really crazy about making Charles 100% the bad guy and Diana the 100% angel. I don't believe that's how it really was.