S05.E01: Queen Victoria Syndrome

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

A much-needed update to the Royal Yacht draws scrutiny to the Queen's reign. Hounded by the press, Charles and Diana have a second honeymoon in Italy.

Dropping on Wednesday, November 9, 2022.

[Spartan Girl]

Yay, Claire Foy!

Charles, you miserable, stuck-up asshole. Just because someone prefers shopping to historical sights doesn’t make them stupid. The very least you can do for Diana after everything you put her through is let her have her own fun on vacation without giving her crap about it.

Poor William and Harry. The kids are always stuck in the middle.

[Helena Dax]

Here we go! This first episode isn't doing Charles any favour, but I find Dominic West amazing as him. The actress who plays Diana is doing a great job too, but I think she's easier to play. OTOH, the others are still Dolores Umbridge, the High Sparrow and the junkie from Trainspotting (sorry, Johnny Lee Miller, but to me you'll always be the junkie from Trainspotting).

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

OTOH, the others are still Dolores Umbridge, the High Sparrow and the junkie from Trainspotting (sorry, Johnny Lee Miller, but to me you'll always be the junkie from Trainspotting).

Interesting. As I've never seen the actress who is now playing Queen Elizabeth in anything else, let's see if she can convince me as Queen Elizabeth. As for Jonny Lee Miller, I've only seen him in Eli Stone, where he played an American lawyer.  So I guess I'm a blank slate!

[secnarf]

Dominic West is just not Charles. He does manage to sound like him, so if I close my eyes it is fine, but he doesn't embody Charles the way Josh O'Connor did.

On the other hand, the actors playing Diana and Philip are excellent and in terms of appearance are reasonably similar to their characters. Jonathan Pryce in particular does a good job of mimicking Philip's way of walking. And the actors they found to play William and Harry really look similar to the boys at that age.

I'm still undecided about Ismelda Staunton - I think she is doing a good job, but I am struggling a bit with seeing her as Dolores Umbridge, though not as much as I had anticipated.

[Pj3422]

As good as Jonathan Pryce always is, I wasn’t convinced he could pull off being Prince Phillip. I am happy to have been proved wrong. I would think the royal family would be appeased by having handsome Dominic West play Charles

Edited November 9, 2022 by Pj3422

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Just because someone prefers shopping to historical sights doesn’t make them stupid. The very least you can do for Diana after everything you put her through is let her have her own fun on vacation without giving her crap about it.

Of course married people should plan their holiday so that both gets something interesting, but Diana's obsession on shopping seems either a sympton of her unhappiness like bulimia, or she would *like* to have crowds to gather to stare at her during the holiday (in London she could buy anything privately). 

Most of all, these two have no common interests.

2 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

The actress who plays Diana is doing a great job too, but I think she's easier to play.

I think she is good in private scene where Diana is unhappy, but not so good in public scenes where she is supposed to be charismaric and radiant.

[Ellaria]

I like the new cast. Dominic West is proving to be an interesting choice for Charles. 

So far, I like the tone that the narrative is taking. John Major is clearly aware that the Windsors are a house of house of cards right now.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[Quilt Fairy]

Why, hello there, Claire Foy.  Nice to see you. 

[anonymiss]

I'm a few minutes in and Dominic West is already more distracting and unconvincing than I feared. 

ETA: OK he is attempting to do Charles' cadence and it is a decent effort. Between this and the verité  of Diana's casting, I might be able to suspend disbelief enough but it will never compare to the gravitas and eerie verisimilitude last season brought. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by anonymiss

[BloomsburyRez]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Interesting. As I've never seen the actress who is now playing Queen Elizabeth in anything else, let's see if she can convince me as Queen Elizabeth

 I love Imelda Staunton ever since she & Hugh Laurie stole their scenes in Sense & Sensibility as an unhappily married couple. She was in the two Downton Abbey movies as a distant cousin of the family (fun fact her real life husband played the butler Carson on Downton and their daughter is one of the older annoying Featherington sisters on Bridgerton keeping British period dramas all in the family). BUT she inhabited Umbridge in the Harry Potter movies so perfectly I’m dreading her as the Queen. Once you are done with this season look up one of the Umbridge scenes. She’s a horrific instructor, unfair, punishing, etc. Arguably the worst villain in the entire series because at some point everyone has encountered someone like her. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, BloomsburyRez said:

BUT she inhabited Umbridge in the Harry Potter movies so perfectly I’m dreading her as the Queen. Once you are done with this season look up one of the Umbridge scenes. She’s a horrific instructor, unfair, punishing, etc.

Oh NO!!! She played HER?????!!! I remember that horrid, horrid, horrid character! Well, it's been a few years since I binged all the Potter movies, so maybe I'll be okay?

I REFUSE to watch Bridgerton. 

[Armchair Critic]

9 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Poor William and Harry. The kids are always stuck in the middle.

That was cute how they stuck up for her with the shopping but sad that they felt like they had to do that.

[peridot]

It seemed like Charles planned their "second honeymoon" to do only the things that he wanted to do.  I felt so embarrassed for Diana when Charles tried to shame her in front of those people.  It was pretty awful that her kids noticed all of the disharmony.

Charles seemed like such a backbiting jerk.  I couldn't believe he met with the Prime Minister secretly to discuss how to supplant the Queen.  One of the scenes was distracting since it showed Charles' arm moving around in front of the camera while showing the Prime Minister's face. 

The Queen didn't do herself any favors when she tried to say 12m was a small amount for repairs.  Holy crap!

I felt for the Prime Minister when everyone tried to get in his ear about something.  Let the poor man leave the party!

[dubbel zout]

The queen always wore a three-strand pearl necklace. I'm a bit surprised the show got that wrong.

I don't think Jonathan Pryce quite works visually as Prince Philip, but he's got the orneriness down. And the actor playing Princess Anne ironically looks like a younger Princess Margaret. I did love they worked in Anne's genuine zeal for lighthouses.

1 minute ago, peridot said:

I felt for the Prime Minister when everyone tried to get in his ear about something.  Let the poor man leave the party!

It cracks me up that the royal family is his biggest headache at the moment. 

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Of course married people should plan their holiday so that both gets something interesting, but Diana's obsession on shopping seems either a sympton of her unhappiness like bulimia, or she would *like* to have crowds to gather to stare at her during the holiday (in London she could buy anything privately). 

That’s a bit unfair. If all she wanted was a photo op, there were plenty of photographers when they were at the ruins. Some people just like to shop wherever they go, there’s nothing wrong with that. Diana was genuinely happy that Charles seemed to want to spend time as a family, until that went down the toilet.

I really love Charles lamenting about their first honeymoon like it was such a big ordeal, conveniently leaving out the part where Diana found out he took photos of Camilla (in his diary) with him, among other things. To his friend with a sick child, no less (though to give him credit, he did catch himself on that last one).

Did anyone else burst into hysterical laughter at that poll calling Charles “modern” and “empathetic”? Just me?

Aw at the hug between Diana and Fergie at the end.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[SoWindsor]

Was nice to see Claire Foy. Was hoping we’d see Matt Smith too but maybe he was busy filming house of the dragon. 

I’m not loving the actress who plays Diana. While she does look the part, (albeit too tall) she doesn’t embody Diana the way the previous actress did. 

Dominic as Charles also doesn’t seem like the right casting choice.

[Lady Whistleup]

A slightly slower, more leisurely episode of The Crown. I like it. Lots of character building scenes without any big drama. 

I am not feeling Dominic West as Charles. To me, Josh O'Connor will always be Charles. He got the tics, the mannerisms, the awkwardness, the arrogance perfectly. West seems too smooth as Charles. On the other hand I love Elizabeth Debicki as Diana. I like how this season's Diana is a little harder and colder than Season 4 Diana. 

I know the Crown is heavily fictionalized, but that scene about Diana wanting to go shopping struck a nerve that was probably true. Charles and Diana simply had such different interests, and poor William and Harry were stuck in the middle.

I am liking Imelda Staunton and Jonathan Pryce as E&P. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[One Imaginary Girl]

I know this was shot well before September, but I admire that the show went with an episode so critical of the Queen. Takes some nerve to think that that huge yacht was a benefit to the country and not the royals personally.

[Hanya2]

Would Diana really be trashing Charles to someone who wasn't a close friend? I would think she would be very formal to the Prime Minister. 

That seems like strange writing, unless it's just a plot trick that all the royal family is unloading on the Prime Minister.

[dubbel zout]

20 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

West seems too smooth as Charles.

This is an older Charles who has settled (mostly) into his role as monarch in waiting. I think West is doing a good job. 

[chocolatine]

I haven't even finished watching the episode but just wanted to say that Jonny Lee Miller is killing it as John Major! I didn't even know he was going to be on it, so this is a pleasant surprise. On the other hand, Imelda Staunton, Jonathan Pryce, Dominic West, and Elizabeth Debicki are all boring me so far.

[txhorns79]

Loved seeing Claire Foy, but I got tired of getting hit over the head with the symbolism of the old, falling apart Britannia.

[Athena5217]

I have been to Capri where I visited the Villa Jovis AND went shopping. It’s a small island so it’s not hard to do both. I get that we’re supposed to see the contrast with Charles and Diana, but it’s not realisticaly done.

Dominic West is too good looking to play Charles and also doesn’t resemble him at all beyond being a white male with brown hair. 
 

It seems ridiculous to hide the Sunday Times from the Queen and Anne. As if they wouldn’t find out about a story like that on the front page. It’s also a story the Queen needs to know about so she she isn’t surprised by it later in a public situation. 

[BloomsburyRez]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Did anyone else burst into hysterical laughter at that poll calling Charles “modern” and “empathetic”? Just me?

Yes! It reminded me of a scene in The Queen (same writer of course) where Charles’ secretary called Tony Blair to stress how similar and “modern” Charles and Blair were while Charles listens and nods approvingly. 

I know that Diana did court and encourage the press when she wanted but I also did think that scene was just her wanting to shop. She started wearing Versace in the 90s maybe other Italian designers as well?

Jonathan Pryce does not bother me as much as Phillip as I thought he would, although I still think they should have cast Charles Dance as oldest Phillip instead of oldest Mountbatten. I’m mixed on Imelda Staunton.  Dominic West is horribly miscast as Charles. I’m not crazy about the actress as Diana either. I wish they could have aged up somehow the previous Charles & Diana.

Robert Fellowes is the secretary who is seen trying to hide the newspapers on Britannia in this episode.  It wasn’t mentioned in the episode but he is connected to the two royal wives. Fellowes’ wife is Diana’s older sister and his first cousin was Fergie’s dad.

[merylinkid]

Minor character recast that bugs --- Anne.  The one they had playing her before was perfect.  Looked like her, sounded like her, had the no nonsense attitude down pat.  This Anne is like a militant gym teacher.

[meowmommy]

9 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Minor character recast that bugs --- Anne.  The one they had playing her before was perfect.  Looked like her, sounded like her, had the no nonsense attitude down pat.  This Anne is like a militant gym teacher.

I'm bugged by most of the recast.  Imelda Staunton is a perfectly capable actress, but I just don't see her as the Queen in the way Claire Foy or Olivia Colman were.  And golly, have Liz's eyes gone from blue to brown and now back to blue again?

I had no idea that was Jonny Lee Miller as John Major.  But I've only seen him in the Emma miniseries and as a Big Bad on Dexter, so it's odd to see him aged up.

[Quilt Fairy]

22 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Minor character recast that bugs --- Anne.  The one they had playing her before was perfect.  Looked like her, sounded like her, had the no nonsense attitude down pat.

Totally agree.  I'm a few episodes in, and this Anne continues to bother me.  I'm having a problem identifying between her and her aunt, Princess Margaret.  

[Blakeston]

I found the Queen pretty unbearable in this one. She's going to point out that she's "asked for so little?" Maybe that's because she already has every whim catered to, and every privilege a person could imagine!

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, BloomsburyRez said:

 I’m not crazy about the actress as Diana either. I wish they could have aged up somehow the previous Charles & Diana.

Personally I really dislike when productions do things like that because it leads to Hollywood depending on younger actors to carry roles that aren't even appropriate for them.  I love age appropriate casting.

1 hour ago, meowmommy said:

I had no idea that was Jonny Lee Miller as John Major.  But I've only seen him in the Emma miniseries and as a Big Bad on Dexter, so it's odd to see him aged up.

Jonny Lee Miller is 49.  As this episode takes place in 1991, John Major would be 48.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[meowmommy]

19 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Jonny Lee Miller is 49.  As this episode takes place in 1991, John Major would be 48

Looks a lot older, no?

And on that subject, Dominic West is a 53-year-old playing a 43-year-old, and it shows.  He’s only 13 years younger than the woman playing his mother.  

[chocolatine]

I also thought that the new actress playing Anne was supposed to be Margaret and was confused why people were referring to her as the Princess Royal until she called the Queen Mummy and it all made sense again.

Dominic West has the wrong vibe for Charles. He completely lacks Charles's awkwardness. Elizabeth Debicki is trying too hard with Diana's mannerisms, IMO. I hope she relaxes a bit in future episodes. Jonathan Pryce lacks Philip's mischievous streak. Imelda Staunton is just blah.

To finish on a complimentary note, they did a great job casting the young Price Harry.

Edited November 10, 2022 by chocolatine

[BloomsburyRez]

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Totally agree.  I'm a few episodes in, and this Anne continues to bother me.  I'm having a problem identifying between her and her aunt, Princess Margaret.  

I wasn’t crazy about Anne either. I really loved the young Anne from the past two seasons again wish she could have continued. I have no idea who is playing the Queen Mum but she looked too tall and thin, I remember in every picture she looked like a short pudgy granny. I do like Leslie Manville as Margaret though. I just saw her in Mrs Harris goes to Paris and there’s a few times when her character exclaims how much she loves Princess Margaret!

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

I found the Queen pretty unbearable in this one. She's going to point out that she's "asked for so little?" Maybe that's because she already has every whim catered to, and every privilege a person could imagine!

This.  Something has been bugging me since I watched it and this scene encapsulates what I didn’t like about the new Queen portrayal (I still like Imelda Staunton so maybe she was directed to act like this?). But in the previous four seasons she is always portrayed as competent. Even when things were kept from her she would figure it out and stand up for herself. In this she’s like a spoiled girl asking for a pony when discussing the yacht. Or cooing to Phillip just a few more appearances then giggle giggle she can rest (as opposed to other times shown with a grueling tour schedule say where she flat out acknowledges she’s fatigued but what can you do). The other two Queens would have figured out the newspaper and not walked off confused but “oh well”.

It’s almost as if there’s an entirely new writing and production staff and it’s an alternative universe royals where they don’t really look or act like they’ve been portrayed in the previous four seasons. I’m hopeful this was a weak start and it will course correct (nothing to do about some though like the “doesn’t look or act like Charles” Charles). 

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Some people just like to shop wherever they go, there’s nothing wrong with that.

...except they are boring.

But I quite agree that Charles misbehaved.

[andromeda331]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one confused by who was Anne and who was Margaret. It was odd to cast someone tall and thin to play the Queen Mother.

The Queen asks so little she only wants her huge yacht repaired. It's the only place that she feels is hers. Despite all her castles and palaces. Sorry Elizabeth not feeling any sympathy for you. I did feel for the Prime Minister he's got a whole country to worry about while getting various royals coming up to him to complain or ask for large amounts of money.

Charles is such a jerk. Oh, no his wife wants to shop. Who would want to do that? Ah, I would for one. I like getting souvenirs while on vacation. Diana seems to love shopping. He not only has to say something but try to put her down. I feel sorry for the kids and their guests. The boys probably only said they wanted to help their mother out while the guests said nothing. The one poor guy Charles is complaining to while his daughter had been sick. At least he finally remembered it. They both have very different interests but Charles always has to take it the extra mile. Then decides to leave early so he can try to convince the Prime Minister to shove out his mother. She doesn't have to step down if she doesn't want too. He wonders what his mother's reaction was. What did he think it was going to be? Elizabeth reads one article and decides he's right and she's out? I was hoping someone would ask him how he'd feel if William tried to do that to him decades later? Charles really thinks he's modern? Charles maybe you should step outside your echo chamber. 

[merylinkid]

6 hours ago, BloomsburyRez said:

Or cooing to Phillip just a few more appearances then giggle giggle she can rest (as opposed to other times shown with a grueling tour schedule say where she flat out acknowledges she’s fatigued but what can you do).

And then the montage where she looked put out at having to do more speeches and cut more ribbons.   QEII would NEVER have behaved like that.   Even if she felt it, she never let it show.   She did her duty which meant looking like cutting the 400th ribbon that year was the most exciting thing she had done.   Just not a good portrayal of the Queen as she really was at all.

The scene when they were meeting the press in Italy and Charles says "shall we do the magic thing?"   Gosh if they had just come to an understanding like that, it would have been AMAZING.    If they had just had a working partnership and then quietly did their own thing the rest of the time, they might have made it work.   But Diana wanted to be loved.   And Charles was not compromising on how he thought things should be.   Including just being all "I'm so intellectual let's just do history on this VACATION."   Then sneering that anyone wanted to do anything else.   He couldn't even really understand that his young sons wanted to do fun stuff like play in the water and ride fast boats.   Nothing wrong with history on a trip, but nothing wrong with variety either.   Especially for a Prince who was once known as "Action Man" himself.

[sugarbaker design]

10 hours ago, BloomsburyRez said:

Dominic West is horribly miscast as Charles.

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Dominic West has the wrong vibe for Charles. He completely lacks Charles's awkwardness.

This!  Charles has always been a person from another time with a posh accent, a haughty attitude, and an off-putting demeanor.  DW captures only one of these qualities.

[pasdetrois]

10 hours ago, merylinkid said:

This Anne is like a militant gym teacher.

And darkly brunette, while Anne is a blonde.

Manville's Margaret looks much younger than Staunton's Elizabeth, when the sisters were only a few years apart.

Edited November 10, 2022 by pasdetrois

[MaggieG]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

The Queen asks so little she only wants her huge yacht repaired. It's the only place that she feels is hers. Despite all her castles and palaces. Sorry Elizabeth not feeling any sympathy for you. I did feel for the Prime Minister he's got a whole country to worry about while getting various royals coming up to him to complain or ask for large amounts of money.

Yeah I rolled my eyes at this. When she started talking about all her castles being inherited I was like "Girl, stop." You're asking the general public to pay for the fixing of a yacht that's just for you, us normal people will never set foot on. When you yourself have enough money for repairs. 

I've only watched this first episode so I'm still getting used to the new actors. So far nobody is bugging me too much.

[Domenicholas]

It's cool that they recreated this in the episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyVZCiPGeYQ

[meowmommy]

1 hour ago, pasdetrois said:

Manville's Margaret looks much younger than Staunton's Elizabeth, when the sisters were only a few years apart.

And yet the actresses themselves are only two months apart in age.

[Sailorgirl26]

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

And darkly brunette, while Anne is a blonde.

Manville's Margaret looks much younger than Staunton's Elizabeth, when the sisters were only a few years apart.

In this video posted by Domenicholas, Anne is brunette. I've always thought of her as a brunette.  I think the casting of older Anne is good -- the actress has her no-nonsense walk and attitude down. 

 

[RedDelicious]

I too had the identity of Princess Anne and Princess Margaret confused. I am not getting Princess Margaret from the actress playing her at all.

Elizabeth Debicki and Dominic West are doing a good job but it feels like they are over-acting to me. Too much with the heavily lined sad eyes (Diana) and articulation and facial gestures (Charles).

I absolutely loved the scenery of Scotland by water and I love Britannia and the cameo by the Christina O (standing in for Alexander). I knew she looked familiar!

Edited November 10, 2022 by RedDelicious

[tennisgurl]

I cant imagine that Charles would very much like this portrayal of him, but at least he can take solace in the fact that Dominic West is a thousand times more handsome than he could ever hope to be. 

Its really too bad that Charles and Diana cant at least have a sort of working relationship where they can play happy family for the cameras and be civil to each other but mostly do their own thing behind closed doors, but sadly Diana desperately wants to be loved and Charles is a toxic mix of arrogance and insecurity so this was always going to be a mess. Their vacation plans really show how incompatible they are, they are just really different and want very different things. Its like when in a previous season they both got each other Christmas gifts that they personally would love but that the other didn't care for, they just don't get each other. Not helped by the fact that Charles was being a huge dick in this episode, being condescending and cruel to his wife, desperately trying to grab power because of one stupid poll, and endlessly whining to his friend who has a seriously ill child, which he he realized was a crappy thing to do. It was sweet when William and Harry stood up for their mom, but its sad that they had to do that and that their stuck in the middle of their parents marital problems. 

Poor John Major. He was prepared for dealing with the economy, the opposition party, and foreign affairs, but not being stuck in the middle of royal family drama. 

Claire Foy! Great seeing her for just a minute, she's still my favorite queen. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

Word!

Quote

“The House of Windsor should be binding the nation together. Setting an example of idealized family life. Instead, the senior royals seem dangerously deluded and out of touch. The junior royals, feckless, entitled, and lost. And the Prince of Wales, impatient for a bigger role in public life, fails to appreciate that his one great asset is his wife.”

- John Major

[Eeksquire]

I think one thing that the show gets right (and which irritates me to no end, IRL) is that it's very easy to eyeroll Diana's wish to go shopping, but also: it's arguably part of her royal "job". How many public events does she go to? And she is expected to look and act perfectly at every single one? In the 80s/90s, the royals may well have had "dressers" (or valets, etc.), but "stylists" were several years into the future. It is part of Diana's PR role to be fashionable, to be beautiful, to be decorative, so shopping, for her, is not necessarily a frivolous pursuit. 

But also: ok, so Chuck has to go home to speak at the college; why does everyone else ALSO have to leave? Makes zero sense to me. Diana and the kids had no role at that function!

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Its really too bad that Charles and Diana cant at least have a sort of working relationship where they can play happy family for the cameras and be civil to each other but mostly do their own thing behind closed doors, but sadly Diana desperately wants to be loved and Charles is a toxic mix of arrogance and insecurity so this was always going to be a mess.

Well, they could have just had an open marriage with that kind of partnership, but that would have required Charles to show Diana more respect, kindness, and support than he’s used to giving. Also, as last season proved, he’s quite the hypocrite when it comes to fidelity.

[Trillian]

5 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

I too had the identity of Princess Anne and Princess Margaret confused. I am not getting Princess Margaret from the actress playing her at all.

I had to rely on Margaret’s cigarette to tell which was supposed to be which. 

[Marley]

I liked episode 1 but Dominic West does this thing with his mouth that really annoys me lol.

[Ohiopirate02]

I was skeptical of the new actress playing Anne until we got to her checking out Tim up in the lighthouse.  I was like "yep, that's the Anne from season 4."