S01.E05: Trial By Fire

[WaltersHair]

1 hour ago, rocketinu said:

That food served to them in that fancy smancy restaurant looked incredible and they all walked away from it - now THAT is unbelievable.

All I could think is that they were leaving Henry to pick up the check.

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t know maybe I have gotten alot less picky about shows during Covid or maybe it’s because I have a soft spot for season long mysteries like this one (probably a little of both) but I really have been enjoying this.   Is it the top of the heap of the genre?  God no.  But it has kept my interest throughout.  I really like Nichole Kidman and always have.   I think she is on my top list of favorite  actresses so I don’t give a crap about work done.    “The Others” is one of my favorite movies ever.  I think I still have it on my DVR.  I hate Tom Cruise but I will watch the movies they were in together like Far And Away.

Anyway these mystery thrillers type movies are right up my ally so I always enjoy them.  add a few decent actors and I always enjoy them.  So I am pretty sure I would have liked this even without Covid.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[MBayGal]

I’d put money down that Henry is not the killer, that this is another of the director’s “Ha, ha, fooled you!” cliffhangers.  Like the ep that ended with the detective showing the street camera of Grace near Elena’s apartment. They live on E. 63 and the south boundary of Harlem is 110th, so 47 blocks minimum.  How could a 13-y-o get there, murder someone, and get back home covered in blood, etc., unnoticed?  I know they have a driver, but could Henry call him late at night and ask to go to Harlem without the driver mentioning it to his parents?  Or do drivers keep a log? So would Henry walk, taxi, subway, uber? None make sense. 

But it doesn’t make sense that any of the family could do that, really, unless they planned to murder her and took a change of clothes. Fernando would have the best chance of murdering her and getting home unnoticed, because her studio is near their apartment.  But the street camera that saw Grace showed some time after 9 p.m., so I’d think the streets of Harlem - or really any part of Manhattan - would be pretty busy at that time on a Saturday night.  If he had other clothes he could change and dispose of them on the way home.  But then how did the hammer, all clean and shiny, end up in Henry’s violin case?

They have a lot of work to do to give me a believable ending!!!

Edited to add: Your wife has been brutally murdered and you take your 10-y-o child to the trial to be exposed to all the grim details??  I’d report Fernando to Child Services. I didn’t even think Henry should be there.

And the way Grace was glaring at Jonathon during the trial was not in keeping with Muck Lawyer’s admonition to make it look like she was on his side!

Edited November 23, 2020 by MBayGal

[spaceghostess]

12 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t know maybe I have gotten alit less picky about shows during Covid or maybe it’s because I have a soft spot for season long mysteries like this one (probably a little of both) but I really have been enjoying this.   Is it the top of the heap of the genre?  God no.  But it has kept my interest throughout.  I really like Nichole Kidman and always have.   I think she is on my top list of favorite  actresses so I don’t give a crap about work done.    “The Others” is one of my favors movies ever.  I think I still have it on my DVR.  I hate Tom Cruise but I will watch the movies they were in together like Far And Away.

Anyway these mystery thrillers type movies are right up my ally so I always enjoy them.  add a few decent actors and I always enjoy them.  So I am pretty sure I would have liked this even without Covid.

Quoting just to say I share your love of The Others!*

*But IMHO, the work has affected NK’s ability to emote with her face, unfortunately.

[Penman61]

It took awhile (I had to download an app called TimeWastr), but I have the tally so far for 5 episodes:

Show run time total: 298 minutes

Show run time total, minus Kidman walking around NY alone scenes: 37 minutes

Interesting!

[cardigirl]

3 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Love your whole post. I have to admit that for a hot second I thought someone had killed your poor-tv-taste friend and you didn't care. I guess I have a little Jonathan lurking around inside me.

Ha ha!!  I guess I need grammar help from Rosemary Harris (who played Jonathon's mother). 

I'm so tired of poor little rich girls finding themselves in impossible situations and wondering if they should have seen it coming.  Um, well, no, because the author probably didn't think to give you any clues. They just create a high society group, but don't really explain much about who these people really are. No real depth has been given to any of these characters. The only character I was interested in seeing more of was the public defender, because he didn't fit the usual mold, but they got rid of him for the high-priced criminal lawyer and as far as I've seen, she's something of a cliche as well. 

The friend who recommended this series to me probably is enjoying all the "scenery" as in beautiful houses and high lifestyle, and that's why this show appeals to her. I don't mind pretty scenery, but I want a ripping story and great acting too. 

I still hope Grace is the sociopath in this story.  😉 

Edited November 23, 2020 by cardigirl

[CarpeFelis]

2 hours ago, rocketinu said:

That food served to them in that fancy smancy restaurant looked incredible and they all walked away from it - now THAT is unbelievable.

The part I find most unbelievable in all this is Grace’s walks. Daytime, sure. But what woman in her right mind goes for solo walks in the middle of the night? I’d be afraid of getting mugged or worse.

And WTF was she thinking, walking home in the middle of the night and crawling into bed with Jonathan?!

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

I find nothing to be compelling whatsoever about Elena so for Jonathan to say he loved her quite madly, well, I don't get it.  She was bizarre and kind of odd-looking, if you ask me.  He lusted for her perhaps, but loved -- ugh no.

Nicole's look is so distracting to me -- especially her mouth -- that I find it hard to watch her.  She is not doing a great job in this series IMO.  

Give me a break -- frequently walking around NYC at night by herself at all hours -- what in the world??

I think we are supposed to find Elena amazingly beautiful. Every encounter with her has been a comment on that, her perfect breasts, the rich young men all hovering around her, everyone meeting her being immediately enchanted with her...including Grace. Since Jonathan is a sociopath...I think we are to believe he just had to have this woman and risk everything for that.

This is of course a very superficial way to characterize someone, particularly, if you do not see the appeal. I think the actress is very attractive but, she acted so looney the one episode that she was alive that I found her more weird than appealing. 

44 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

The part I find most unbelievable in all this is Grace’s walks. Daytime, sure. But what woman in her right mind goes for solo walks in the middle of the night? I’d be afraid of getting mugged or worse.

And WTF was she thinking, walking home in the middle of the night and crawling into bed with Jonathan?!

Walking that long by yourself for so long in a big city can be quite dangerous, particularly if your beautiful coat just screams "I'm a clueless rich lady"

[Andyourlittledog2]

2 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

Give me a break -- frequently walking around NYC at night by herself at all hours -- what in the world??

It kinda looked like she was wearing her pjs, slippers, and robe too. Through Central Park. At night.  FFS.

The thing that completely baffled me was bringing your kid to court to attend his father's trial for rape and gruesome murder. Everyone acted like it was completely normal for a kid to sit through all that talk of 'semen left' and bludgeoning eleven times, and crushed skull etc about his own father. You'd think a psychologist would at least consider that this is perhaps not a good thing for her impressionable thirteen year old to be hearing first hand. If Henry did inherit the psychopath genes his upbringing by his weird parents is not going to help any. At the very least it will impact him for the rest of his life.  That he was so stoic and chipper through it all points to some damage already. He wants his parents back together. He just might do something to make that happen.

He either did it or is hiding the weapon to protect someone else. Or someone planted it on him.

Add me to the Sylvia waves was ridiculous crowd.  I can only assume it means that Sylvia has something to do with this and the writers are alluding to it by making her do something so stupidly seventh grade.

[Lemons]

3 hours ago, Ashforth said:

 

Her job is to sell reasonable doubt, so pointing the finger at other potential killers and undermining confidence in circumstantial evidence are exactly what she would and should do. 

 

Yes, and she was terrible at it.   That part where she "caught" the detective in a lie was stupid.  There's no reason that the detective would not honestly answer questions about who else walked by knowing that the defense also had access to the street cameras.   And she didn't come up with anything to convince the jury that they should seriously look at the husband.   

[tennisgurl]

 Detective Mendoza might be hot, but he has been so smug and has done such a crappy job as detective, I was happy to see Hayley take him down a peg. Whether or not Jonathan did it or not, Detective Mendoza clearly decided he was the killer right away and has never shown real interest in pursuing other leads, even though there are plenty of others, certainly enough for reasonable doubt. Her husbands alibi, his sleeping ten year old, is hardly air tight, Elena was clearly a person with a lot of secrets, and even Grace is probably a better suspect. 

I wish we had at least one more episode before the finale, I feel like we still have a lot more to explore, especially with Elena. She seemed like such a strange person, I really wanted to explore her more and what she was doing following Grace around, and I don't know if we will have the time. 

On the one hand, I can see a scenario where Henry is the killer. He picked up some sociopathy from his dad and killed Elena to keep his family together. On the other, that seems like a really violent crime for such a little kid, does he even have the upper body strength to do that much damage. I can just as easily see him covering for Jonathan or his grandfather or even Grace. 

[Kiss my mutt]

Jonathan’s mother had a very flat affect like there was something off about her too. Definitely sounds like three generations are affecting by some kind of personality disorder. 

The show always leaves me with more questions than answers which has kept me interested trying to put the pieces together and this is the kind of show I gravitate toward so I’m thoroughly enjoying it. I find Elena quite captivating and sensuous and can see how men would be intrigued by her. 

I still don’t understand the part at the table where Jonathan acts like he didn’t know Henry saw him because he did, in fact, wave when he saw him across the street. I don’t see how this is all going to culminate in an hour and I hope it doesn’t drop everything like a hot potato that we’ve had questions about. I need some resolution. 

I’m surprised at the general disregard for children in the series. Letting them listen in on sensitive telephone calls, watching news stories, the courtroom scenes and just leaving them at home by themselves while they go walking around at night like Grace and Fernando did. Maybe those are Grace’s “fugue” moments otherwise I don’t know how she’d justify walking around alone at night by herself and leaving her son, both which could be dangerous. I guess it’s good she’s got a camera crew filming her or she’d probably be mugged by now. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Kiss my mutt

[BingeyKohan]

If Henry did it (I don't think he did) can you imagine how ridiculous it is the entire Fraser household was on the same block of Harlem in the wee hours of the morning and failed to encounter each other? What perfect timing they all had! I guess the entrance to all of Harlem is a revolving door and when Grace came out of it Henry was going in the opposite way. Also I would propose that a home like theirs would have a security system that would have to be disarmed every time someone came in and there would be a time log of that. Did every member of the household come in and out throughout the same night? (Unclear on what the childcare situation was for Henry while they were at the fundraiser and for Grace's walkabout afterward - maybe he's old enough to stay home alone?) 

This is mostly in jest because I'm fairly sure the next episode will establish that Henry found the hammer and assumed (correctly) that his father used it to kill Elena (with whom Henry had already seen Jonathan) so he cleaned it up and stashed it for him. AND/OR Jonathan hid it in Henry's room that time he came in at 5 am to tell him goodbye before the "Cleveland trip." 

ETA: I have never seen 2 such pristine sculpting hammers in my life. (OK I have never seen any sculpting hammers in my life but you have to admit, both the ones we saw seemed 'gently used' at most!)

Edited November 23, 2020 by BingeyKohan

[Kirsty]

This show's cliffhanger endings are so much fun!

Grace seems really at home in the city, doesn't she?! You'd think Central Park was her private estate. And I have never seen a show that worked so hard to sell full-length women's coats. Grace obviously doesn't do jackets. We'll know she's really "undone" in the finale if she shows up in a puffer jacket or a fleece. 😄 Did you see the patterned coat she wore on the first day of the trial? If you're determined to spend a couple of grand on a long coat then this was a good colour both to project innocence and to complement her hair!

Anyway, given that the previous episode established that Jonathan had had a fling with a mystery woman, I was waiting all this episode for the "Jonathan slept with Sylvia" reveal. I thought Sylvia was going to be this week's innocent person made to look guilty of murder. But no! This week's misdirect was Henry. Henry was made to look guilty and the Sylvia reveal has been saved for the finale. So Sylvia murdered Elena.

Quote

Sylvia's waving to the prosecutor in the court room and then hugging Grace...yeah, that's not weird at all.

Well, if you assume that Sylvia is the killer, then you notice how carefully orchestrated her appearances were in this episode. She didn't speak and she was barely seen until that wave. It was a family affair until then. So she was basically waving at us, the viewers, to remind us that she's still there. Then she had two phone conversations with Grace in the second half of the episode, and both times she made Jonathan out to be guilty.

I agree with the comments that we shouldn't have been shown that graphic image. I didn't want to see that. And I agree that the two boys obviously should not attend the trial. It's utterly bonkers that they're listening to everything. But I must say the actor playing Henry is doing well in the role. I'm totally convinced by his devotion to his father, and I bought his reactions in the restaurant.

I'm not sure what to make of the English mother-in-law's video call. If it's 4am, why is she fully dressed and made up? She baldly states that the little girl's death was Jonathan's fault. And her grammar correction under the circumstances made her sound like she had all the feeling of a rock. So I couldn't tell if her judgment was trustworthy and Jonathan actually is a sociopath, or if she and her husband had old-fashioned ideas about parenting (where grammar is much more important than feelings or talking about feelings) and they misinterpreted his reactions to his sister's death. I'm leaning toward sociopath, because he seems to lie about everything.

Interesting how little Donald Sutherland had to do this week. I guess he was last week's red herring.

[ECM1231]

1 hour ago, Kirsty said:

We'll know she's really "undone" in the finale if she shows up in a puffer jacket or a fleece. 😄

🤣 Brava!

[Rickster]

18 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Grace still hasn't asked Jonathan about the fake conference.

 

She also hasn’t asked him about the $500,000 he got from her father.

[atlantaloves]

OH GOD, FUCK IT, I KILLED HER. 

[Mean Jeanne]

Lots of interesting comments/theories here.

This whole time I’ve been having a hard time buying Hugh Grant in a serious role, but that’s because I’ve watched Love Actually/Bridget Jones/Notting Hill waaaay more times than could be considered normal, so I may be the only one.

As for the little Hallmark family meal scene, I took it as a lunch break during the trial and not an actual night out to dinner. Anyone else?

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Kirsty said:

This show's cliffhanger endings are so much fun!

Grace seems really at home in the city, doesn't she?! You'd think Central Park was her private estate. And I have never seen a show that worked so hard to sell full-length women's coats. Grace obviously doesn't do jackets. We'll know she's really "undone" in the finale if she shows up in a puffer jacket or a fleece. 😄 Did you see the patterned coat she wore on the first day of the trial? If you're determined to spend a couple of grand on a long coat then this was a good colour both to project innocence and to complement her hair!

Anyway, given that the previous episode established that Jonathan had had a fling with a mystery woman, I was waiting all this episode for the "Jonathan slept with Sylvia" reveal. I thought Sylvia was going to be this week's innocent person made to look guilty of murder. But no! This week's misdirect was Henry. Henry was made to look guilty and the Sylvia reveal has been saved for the finale. So Sylvia murdered Elena.

Well, if you assume that Sylvia is the killer, then you notice how carefully orchestrated her appearances were in this episode. She didn't speak and she was barely seen until that wave. It was a family affair until then. So she was basically waving at us, the viewers, to remind us that she's still there. Then she had two phone conversations with Grace in the second half of the episode, and both times she made Jonathan out to be guilty.

I agree with the comments that we shouldn't have been shown that graphic image. I didn't want to see that. And I agree that the two boys obviously should not attend the trial. It's utterly bonkers that they're listening to everything. But I must say the actor playing Henry is doing well in the role. I'm totally convinced by his devotion to his father, and I bought his reactions in the restaurant.

I'm not sure what to make of the English mother-in-law's video call. If it's 4am, why is she fully dressed and made up? She baldly states that the little girl's death was Jonathan's fault. And her grammar correction under the circumstances made her sound like she had all the feeling of a rock. So I couldn't tell if her judgment was trustworthy and Jonathan actually is a sociopath, or if she and her husband had old-fashioned ideas about parenting (where grammar is much more important than feelings or talking about feelings) and they misinterpreted his reactions to his sister's death. I'm leaning toward sociopath, because he seems to lie about everything.

Interesting how little Donald Sutherland had to do this week. I guess he was last week's red herring.

One of her coats probably cost more than my whole wardrobe...the perfect thing to walk 47 blocks in the dead of night all by one self with no one else around.

[endure]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 Detective Mendoza might be hot, but he has been so smug and has done such a crappy job as detective, I was happy to see Hayley take him down a peg. Whether or not Jonathan did it or not, Detective Mendoza clearly decided he was the killer right away and has never shown real interest in pursuing other leads, even though there are plenty of others, certainly enough for reasonable doubt. Her husbands alibi, his sleeping ten year old, is hardly air tight, Elena was clearly a person with a lot of secrets, and even Grace is probably a better suspect. 

I wish we had at least one more episode before the finale, I feel like we still have a lot more to explore, especially with Elena. She seemed like such a strange person, I really wanted to explore her more and what she was doing following Grace around, and I don't know if we will have the time. 

On the one hand, I can see a scenario where Henry is the killer. He picked up some sociopathy from his dad and killed Elena to keep his family together. On the other, that seems like a really violent crime for such a little kid, does he even have the upper body strength to do that much damage. I can just as easily see him covering for Jonathan or his grandfather or even Grace. 

Henry's Dad didn't kill his sister, it was an accident. 

[nara]

Here’s my wild speculation.

Jonathan killed Elena. His statement that he loved her is just an attempt at manipulation. He put the hammer in Henry’s violin case to make Grace think Henry did it. She confesses to save her son. Franklin kills Jonathan. 

[cardigirl]

Interesting review (no spoilers in it) from the Atlantic about the show, mentioning the things that I have said may have attracted my friend to this particular mystery. https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2020/10/the-gilded-messes-of-hbos-the-undoing/616860/

It also mentions Succession, a show that I think is brilliant, and that deals with the same social class as Grace and her father.

[kay1864]

9 hours ago, Cheyanne11 said:

“Hi, daughter-in-law I haven't spoken to or seen in over a decade.  Let me immediately correct your grammar."  

“AND who recently discovered her husband is cheating on her, and who is attending the murder trial of her husband.  But enough about your trauma(s).”

[tennisgurl]

The talk Grace had with Jonathans mom was really weird, like Grace is calling to talk about her son being on trail for murder, and she goes on a whole tangent about correcting Grace's grammar? While she is talking about all of these horrible life destroying events that she is currently dealing with? I was like, no wonder Jonathan is such an ass if he grew up with that kind of family. Maybe this whole family is just a mess, no matter the generation. Or Jonathan isnt actually a sociopath, but from a family with the emotional capacity of a boulder, or are VERY old school British and care more about grammar than feelings, so he has no idea how emotions work?

I know that, with the hammer, it seems like someone in the family killed Elena, but it would be kind of hilarious if Elena was just killed by some random meth addict who stumbled into her studio looking for money and killed her randomly while high. 

What is up with everyone letting little kids see all of these horrific images all of the time? Especially the court showing those graphic pictures of Elena's body, with her son right there. I know that, both within the show and as a show, they were going for drama, but god dang give people a heads up, especially the kids. 

Grace sure does love those long nighttime walks with her fabulous coat collection. I get it, those coats are amazing and I would love to watch around all dramatically at night letting hem flow all cool, but its probably not the best idea, especially while your husband is on trail for murder in a media sensation and you were just being stalked by the victims angry husband. 

I am still looking at either Grace's dad or Sylvia as the killer, now that they are seeming to be looking towards Henry being the killer, it makes me suspect that he actually isnt the killer and this is a red herring before we find out the real killer in the last episode. Sylvia seems like the best bet narratively, being a character that has always been around, but hasn't really been a suspect yet, but I could see a narrative where just about anyone on the show did it. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by tennisgurl

[kay1864]

1 hour ago, atlantaloves said:

OH GOD, FUCK IT, I KILLED HER. 

Called it!  Way back in episode 1.  Off to the hoosegow with you, AtlantaLoves!

[mjc570]

23 hours ago, kendi said:

Sylvia's waving to the prosecutor in the court room and then hugging Grace...yeah, that's not weird at all.

Ans you know Sylvia's going to be sharing with the prosecutor that even Jonathan's parents think he's a sociopath who killed his sister.  Way to go, Grace.

[kay1864]

 We were discussing the episode tonight, someone pick this apart:

I don't think Henry made the leap from "I saw my dad talking to this woman" to "my parents are going to separate if I don't do something about that". He may or may not be a sociopath himself, but I can't see him killing a woman just because his dad was flirting with her.

[Norma Desmond]

Occam's razor: If only Jonathan's and the husband's DNA were found on the murder scene, it's got to be one of the two. Unless the killer used astronaut gear.

[qtpye]

24 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The talk Grace had with Jonathans mom was really weird, like Grace is calling to talk about her son being on trail for murder, and she goes on a whole tangent about correcting Grace's grammar? While she is talking about all of these horrible life destroying events that she is currently dealing with? I was like, no wonder Jonathan is such an ass if he grew up with that kind of family. Maybe this whole family is just a mess, no matter the generation. Or Jonathan isnt actually a sociopath, but from a family with the emotional capacity of a boulder, or are VERY old school British and care more about grammar than feelings, so he has no idea how emotions work?

I know that, with the hammer, it seems like someone in the family killed Elena, but it would be kind of hilarious if Elena was just killed by some random meth addict who stumbled into her studio looking for money and killed her randomly while high. 

What is up with everyone letting little kids see all of these horrific images all of the time? Especially the court showing those graphic pictures of Elena's body, with her son right there. I know that, both within the show and as a show, they were going for drama, but god dang give people a heads up, especially the kids. 

Grace sure does love those long nighttime walks with her fabulous coat collection. I get it, those coats are amazing and I would love to watch around all dramatically at night letting hem flow all cool, but its probably not the best idea, especially while your husband is on trail for murder in a media sensation and you were just being stalked by the victims angry husband. 

I am still looking at either Grace's dad or Sylvia as the killer, now that they are seeming to be looking towards Henry being the killer, it makes me suspect that he actually isnt the killer and this is a red herring before we find out the real killer in the last episode. Sylvia seems like the best bet narratively, being a character that has always been around, but hasn't really been a suspect yet, but I could see a narrative where just about anyone on the show did it. 

It was almost like she just called to say "When I looked into my son's eyes it was nothing but PURE EVIL...straighten your posture dear, no one likes to see a pretty lady stoop."

[DiabLOL]

So this has been driving me nuts since the first episode and I have nobody to talk to about it, so here goes.

Elena is supposedly young, right? Like early to mid 20's I'd say. Yet she has a ten year old and a baby AND a studio. That's a lot. No day job? Does her husband have a job? They seem rather poor. YET she has a separate work space? In Manhattan? I don't care if it's in a bad neighborhood or whatever it's still Manhattan. How? Also no working artist is going to rent an actual apartment. It wouldn't give you the space you need (to make sculptures that require that murder hammer). It would be very very unusual for an artist to rent an apartment to work in. An artist who wanted to work in a space separate from their home would rent an actual art studio. Even then I'd be questioning how she's affording this and why. They didn't even bother to let us know that hey maybe she has a gallery and is selling enough to warrant such a rental AND that her husband will give her time to go there alone while he watches the kids. Why would he do this? 

Which really makes me fume about the fact that not only is she painting large scale paintings and making labor intensive sculpture in a small apartment, she has a BED there! Why would one have an entire bed in a studio? You don't have one in your office! It's the same thing! She was definitely using it to have sex with other men while her husband looked after the kids. They didn't even bother to flesh her out as an actual person let alone think about what actual artists do.

On a related note, I couldn't really understand why two working doctors in Manhattan need so many handouts from Franklin. 

 

[CanuckFan]

How does Jonathan's mother know whether he felt guilt or not? Did he tell her he didn't? She knows squat. 

The kid did it. Or "Grace" (what an inapt name).

[SourK]

LMAO. Last week, I sarcastically said I thought the TV interview would end right when Jonathan said he thought he knew who the murderer was, with no further questions or follow-up. And apparently that's what happened. I hate all of the characters so much.

On 11/22/2020 at 10:10 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I continue to really enjoy this show.  I am kinda sorry it will be over next week.  The defense lawyer lady was really good tearing apart the prosecution’s case.   I thought her scenes with the Detectuve were really well done.  

I enjoy the defense lawyer lady as well, and I think it's clear that the show is most interested in the court room stuff -- which kind of makes sense for David E Kelley. What they're doing and saying still doesn't super make sense, but it's dramatized in a more interesting way.

23 hours ago, Ashforth said:

So the "dog story" that sounded like a total fiction made up on the spot when Grace told it to Henry was true - except the dog was Jonathan's 4 year old sister. Jonathan has a meltdown at a fancy restaurant to confess the sister story to Grace. Jonathan's mother tells Grace that he is a sociopath.

Even taking the dog story at face value, when Jonathan said it was really about his sister, my first question was, "How do you get from that to 'we can't get a dog because I killed mine'?" Like, there's something perverse about twisting the story that way, even if it were true.

For the sociopath thing... as much as I hate Jonathan, and as much as I think he could be a sociopath, "He didn't grieve in the exact way we expected him to grieve," isn't the strongest evidence.

23 hours ago, Mackey said:

Franklin should have said “psychopathic” rather than “psychotic.”  I’m trying to decide if this was clever writing or poor writing. Yes, people confuse these terms often (clever writing) but Grace is a psychologist and one might think that her dad would have picked up a few things over dinner and also he’s well educated (poor writing.)

I vote poor writing. Like, unless they're playing 4D chess and trying to tell us that Grace is psychotic and that's why she's so zoned out and nothing around her makes sense.

The problem is that, even if he meant to say "psychopathic" the question still wouldn't make sense since having that type of traumatic event wouldn't turn you into a psychopath, as far as I know.

22 hours ago, Razzberry said:

If you haven't spoken to daughter-in-law for 10 years,  maybe correcting her grammar isn't the best way to start off.

It was an effective way to show us that she's difficult, but I don't love this trope where men become murderers because they have overbearing mothers.

1 hour ago, DiabLOL said:

They seem rather poor. YET she has a separate work space? In Manhattan? I don't care if it's in a bad neighborhood or whatever it's still Manhattan. How? Also no working artist is going to rent an actual apartment. It wouldn't give you the space you need (to make sculptures that require that murder hammer). It would be very very unusual for an artist to rent an apartment to work in. An artist who wanted to work in a space separate from their home would rent an actual art studio. Even then I'd be questioning how she's affording this and why. 

 

Same. I reared back when they described the studio as a second apartment. Partly because it's so expensive and partly because it's so impractical.

[endure]

1 hour ago, Norma Desmond said:

Occam's razor: If only Jonathan's and the husband's DNA were found on the murder scene, it's got to be one of the two. Unless the killer used astronaut gear.

I think it’s the husband.

[Kiss my mutt]

1 hour ago, DiabLOL said:

So this has been driving me nuts since the first episode and I have nobody to talk to about it, so here goes.

Elena is supposedly young, right? Like early to mid 20's I'd say. Yet she has a ten year old and a baby AND a studio. That's a lot. No day job? Does her husband have a job? They seem rather poor. YET she has a separate work space? In Manhattan? I don't care if it's in a bad neighborhood or whatever it's still Manhattan. How? Also no working artist is going to rent an actual apartment. It wouldn't give you the space you need (to make sculptures that require that murder hammer). It would be very very unusual for an artist to rent an apartment to work in. An artist who wanted to work in a space separate from their home would rent an actual art studio. Even then I'd be questioning how she's affording this and why. They didn't even bother to let us know that hey maybe she has a gallery and is selling enough to warrant such a rental AND that her husband will give her time to go there alone while he watches the kids. Why would he do this? 

Which really makes me fume about the fact that not only is she painting large scale paintings and making labor intensive sculpture in a small apartment, she has a BED there! Why would one have an entire bed in a studio? You don't have one in your office! It's the same thing! She was definitely using it to have sex with other men while her husband looked after the kids. They didn't even bother to flesh her out as an actual person let alone think about what actual artists do.

On a related note, I couldn't really understand why two working doctors in Manhattan need so many handouts from Franklin. 

 

I wonder if Jonathan or Franklin were her “patrons” or perhaps even other men since she has this allure over men, as evidenced at the auction, but yeah, I didn’t get that either and that’s actually been niggling at me too. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Kiss my mutt

[Bluesky]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

One of her coats probably cost more than my whole wardrobe...the perfect thing to walk 47 blocks in the dead of night all by one self with no one else around.

I would walk around the Upper East Side at night but East Harlem after 110th street wouldn’t be safe in her trance like condition.   
Did they say where Elena lived exactly?  Because if it’s way up there nobody would believe she was just taking a walk.   

[Armchair Critic]

Was Elena blackmailing Sylvia? I am suspicious why Sylvia would invite Elena into their group at her home.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Armchair Critic

[Kirsty]

Were you all judging Grace for sleeping with Jonathan during the trial? I mean, I get it, he's her husband and she loves him. She can't just turn that off. But he's consistently shown himself to be a completely untrustworthy liar. He didn't just lie about having an affair with Elena and having a daughter with Elena, though that would be enough to end a lot of marriages. He's still lying to her about his previous fling. He lied to Grace's father about why he wanted money. He's been lying to Grace everyday since he lost his job about where on earth he goes every morning and how he spends his days. (Did he find another job?) He lied about the reason he's estranged from his family...

I think Jonathan gets a lot of cover by being a wealthy white doctor with an English accent played by Hugh Grant! If Joe Schmo's web of lies about his entire life had been discovered when he became a suspect in the murder of one of the women he cheated on his wife with? He'd still be in the prison yard, biting off fingers! Henry or no Henry.

This is all to say, you better believe I was judging Grace for going back to him. I found it totally believable but it made me feel sorry for her. One phone call and he's charmed her back into his bed. In real life I'd say she would benefit from some therapy herself.

Quote

If only Jonathan's and the husband's DNA were found on the murder scene, it's got to be one of the two. Unless the killer used astronaut gear.

You're so right, but based on the comments here outlining the ways that the trial is unrealistic, I don't think it's a realistic show. They're going for fun, twisty drama instead of realism. So I don't think DNA evidence will matter in the slightest in the end. Sylvia must keep a spare space suit in that big, cold office of hers.

[qtpye]

9 minutes ago, Kirsty said:

Were you all judging Grace for sleeping with Jonathan during the trial? I mean, I get it, he's her husband and she loves him. She can't just turn that off. But he's consistently shown himself to be a completely untrustworthy liar. He didn't just lie about having an affair with Elena and having a daughter with Elena, though that would be enough to end a lot of marriages. He's still lying to her about his previous fling. He lied to Grace's father about why he wanted money. He's been lying to Grace everyday since he lost his job about where on earth he goes every morning and how he spends his days. (Did he find another job?) He lied about the reason he's estranged from his family...

I think Jonathan gets a lot of cover by being a wealthy white doctor with an English accent played by Hugh Grant! If Joe Schmo's web of lies about his entire life had been discovered when he became a suspect in the murder of one of the women he cheated on his wife with? He'd still be in the prison yard, biting off fingers! Henry or no Henry.

This is all to say, you better believe I was judging Grace for going back to him. I found it totally believable but it made me feel sorry for her. One phone call and he's charmed her back into his bed. In real life I'd say she would benefit from some therapy herself.

You're so right, but based on the comments here outlining the ways that the trial is unrealistic, I don't think it's a realistic show. They're going for fun, twisty drama instead of realism. So I don't think DNA evidence will matter in the slightest in the end. Sylvia must keep a spare space suit in that big, cold office of hers.

That’s one of the things that is actually horrifying. Jonathan gets away with a lot of things because he is the pinnacle of what Americans want to be...a handsome,  charismatic, brilliant, white British man who works to help sick children. Now, he might actually get away with murder. I also noticed that the news stations used an incredibly unflattering shot of Elena’s husband, even though he too is a good looking man.

There is no reason in Hell Grace should be helping him except he is Hugh Grant and nobody beats him...like The Wiz on Seinfeld.

[Haleth]

I'm with you all that everything about this episode was ridiculous and turned me off about this show.  I kept thinking "that wouldn't happen in real life."  I don't even really care anymore about who did it because I'm sure I'll be disappointed.  (I will watch the finale though.)

8 hours ago, cardigirl said:

It also mentions Succession, a show that I think is brilliant, and that deals with the same social class as Grace and her father.

But on Succession we're supposed to hate (or at least laugh at) everyone for their entitlement.  On this show I guess we're supposed to be sympathetic to Grace?  The writing and her acting are not making that easy.

[Johnny Dollar]

17 hours ago, Penman61 said:

It took awhile (I had to download an app called TimeWastr), but I have the tally so far for 5 episodes:

Show run time total: 298 minutes

Show run time total, minus Kidman walking around NY alone scenes: 37 minutes

Interesting!

Thanks for that. You are doing God’s work. Mrs Dollar commented that this show could’ve been a two hour movie. It seems she was off by about an hour. It could maybe be stretched out to an SVU episode. 

[nara]

16 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think we are supposed to find Elena amazingly beautiful. Every encounter with her has been a comment on that, her perfect breasts, the rich young men all hovering around her, everyone meeting her being immediately enchanted with her...including Grace. Since Jonathan is a sociopath...I think we are to believe he just had to have this woman and risk everything for that.

I don’t think there was much risk from his perspective. He’s always gotten away with things his entire life.

10 hours ago, endure said:

Henry's Dad didn't kill his sister, it was an accident. 

I actually immediately jumped to the conclusion that he deliberately encouraged his sister to run outside so that she would get hit by a car. Perhaps he was jealous of the attention she got or was annoyed at having to watch her...It’s possible that I am being too cynical from watching too many twisty shows, but...

9 hours ago, kay1864 said:

 We were discussing the episode tonight, someone pick this apart:

I don't think Henry made the leap from "I saw my dad talking to this woman" to "my parents are going to separate if I don't do something about that". He may or may not be a sociopath himself, but I can't see him killing a woman just because his dad was flirting with her.

I actually think he might. I remember being really annoyed with a man who was trying to flirt with my mom, and I was only 6 at the time. Henry is much older and might be able to draw wilder conclusions. However, I don’t think there was any real risk of them breaking up, because of the money factor. The risk is much higher now, post-murder.

[Rickster]

If this show is trying to be realistic (which is questionable), months have passed since the murder. The trees are now in leaf, when there was snow on the ground in the first episodes. It would take at least months for a case like this to come to trial.

So Henry could not possibly have had that mallet in his violin case all that time, unless he stopped his violin lessons.

[RedDelicious]

I don't want to be that guy (gal) either but the Alvez apartment is on 103rd street in East Harlem, just above the Upper East Side, not Harlem above Central Park North. I did a job at Metropolitan Hospital this past summer and I took the Q train up (which I had to walk to) from Penn Station and walked to where I was staying and walked to the job site. I'm not a city girl and I never felt unsafe. I found the people there to be relatively friendly and/or they just minded their own business. Then again I used an uptown train, it was also Covid and the city was a ghost town, but I would venture to guess the folks up in E. Harlem wouldn't have had the means to escape the city like those on the UES. I would assume what I saw was pretty true to normal life. I know it's a little bit crimey up there but I found it to be very quiet all things considered. And I didn't see a single junkie just asleep on the ground like in (freaking) Midtown.

But anyway, do we know where the fundraising party was supposed to have taken place?  I/we know where it actually took place, but there's no way Grace walked home to 63rd street and up to 103rd from Lower Manhattan. I was thinking maybe she walked home from the fundraising party instead of taking their car OR she had the car drop her off at the park and she wandered her way around 103rd street and swung home to the townhouse on 63rd. I think the whole Grace walking thing is simply meant to be a distractor. Her house is literally 2 miles and change straight down 5th, Madison or Park from 103rd, which are swanky streets, it's not out of the realm of possibility. And she is in fact stick thin. If she went out walking for an hour after the party, she could easily cover 3 miles.

Edited November 24, 2020 by RedDelicious

[larapu2000]

21 hours ago, hershey4 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's Grace's blond friend, Sylvia(?) that did it.  I think she was the "one other affair" that Jonathan referred to, and it has something to do with that.  Because, otherwise, what was the point in bringing up that he had one other affair? Or, maybe Sylvia had an affair with Elena and was jealous, and killed her in a fit of rage, and then decided to frame Jonathan. She picked Henry up from school, didn't she? So she could have hid the murder weapon in his violin case.  I haven't worked out exactly how or why, but I'm putting my money on Syliva.

100% right there with you.  Lily Rabe serves no actual point in the show unless she did it.  That's what I have worked out as to how and why.  That's also the reason Jonathan returned to the scene, to help her clean up the evidence and formulate a plan.

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I'm with you all that everything about this episode was ridiculous and turned me off about this show.  I kept thinking "that wouldn't happen in real life."  I don't even really care anymore about who did it because I'm sure I'll be disappointed.  (I will watch the finale though.)

But on Succession we're supposed to hate (or at least laugh at) everyone for their entitlement.  On this show I guess we're supposed to be sympathetic to Grace?  The writing and her acting are not making that easy.

The thing about Succession, the writing and the acting make you care, in spite of how awful the people are, whereas this show gives us nothing to care about. Just atmospheric shots of pretty people moonily staring off of balconies, holding glasses of whiskey (I presume), and never really eating anything.   

I was intrigued during the first two episodes, I'll give the show that.  But the last three devolved into nonsense for me. Sigh. And I know that these actors are capable of so much more. Hugh Grant was so good in Florence Foster Jenkins, and I think he's doing okay in this.  I'll watch the last episode, just to see if they can pull it out of the fire. 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by cardigirl

[BC4ME]

And while we're at it...the real Johnathan is 60 years old. For whatever type of cosmetic stuff that has happened to Nichole Kidman, she's still 53. So even fudging their ages in the show, they're still older people. What I want to know is what about the other 30 (or 40) years these people have been adults? They have a young boy. Are they supposed to be in their 30s on the show? 

Hugh Grant's character had this accident with the sister literally decades ago. His mother says she hasn't spoken to Grace in ten years since the wedding or something like that. And that he basically hasn't spoken to his family since college. Well, there's a whole lot of time between college and when they get married if the characters are age appropriate. Even Grace, who if age appropriate to real life had a child in her 40s. 

The show just conveniently erases literal decades of these characters' lives when you just know shit must've happened.

I actually had this same problem with Big Little Lies, where Nichole and Laura Dern, both in their 50s IRL, have young elementary school aged children.  While I realize this is possible, I feel like it's going on too much in recent shows, perhaps so aging stars can play roles of much younger women. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by BC4ME

[catsitter]

I could easily believe Jonathan could get the blame for a dog getting out of the house and getting run over, but surely nobody could be expected to watch a 4-year-old the whole time to make sure she didn't get out of the house?  What if he was in the bathroom instead of making a sandwich? Would it still have been his fault? If they were supposed to keep the door locked the whole time and he didn't, then o.k., his fault, but they didn't say that.

[Razzberry]

That's why I think that Jonathan may have put Katie the Kitten's body in the road after bashing her over the head before eating his cheese and to-mah-to sandwich.

[TVMovieBuff]

I didn't read the book, and I have no knowledge of what will happen. This is just my take on it. 

Jonathan did it. It was Jonathan who hid the hammer in the violin case. He's a sociopath, he figires if Henry gets nailed for the murder, he is 13, nothing much will happen to him. He will spend a little time in a facility and then come home. 

I think Sylvia was the one-off Jonathan confessed to. 

I wonder what will happen to the baby. Jonathan said he would take her, I don't know if that is good or not. Or whether Grace would raise her. 

 

[Ashforth]

12 hours ago, DiabLOL said:

So this has been driving me nuts since the first episode and I have nobody to talk to about it, so here goes.

Elena is supposedly young, right? Like early to mid 20's I'd say. Yet she has a ten year old and a baby AND a studio. That's a lot. No day job? Does her husband have a job? They seem rather poor. YET she has a separate work space? In Manhattan? I don't care if it's in a bad neighborhood or whatever it's still Manhattan. How? Also no working artist is going to rent an actual apartment. It wouldn't give you the space you need (to make sculptures that require that murder hammer). It would be very very unusual for an artist to rent an apartment to work in. An artist who wanted to work in a space separate from their home would rent an actual art studio. Even then I'd be questioning how she's affording this and why. They didn't even bother to let us know that hey maybe she has a gallery and is selling enough to warrant such a rental AND that her husband will give her time to go there alone while he watches the kids. Why would he do this? 

Which really makes me fume about the fact that not only is she painting large scale paintings and making labor intensive sculpture in a small apartment, she has a BED there! Why would one have an entire bed in a studio? You don't have one in your office! It's the same thing! She was definitely using it to have sex with other men while her husband looked after the kids. They didn't even bother to flesh her out as an actual person let alone think about what actual artists do.

On a related note, I couldn't really understand why two working doctors in Manhattan need so many handouts from Franklin. 

The actress who plays Elena is 25. I think that she has been exploited by this show because she was willing to do nudity. That's been pretty much the sole development of Elena's character. She was nekkid! I expect nothing more from David E. Kelley. To borrow a line from Fernando, he is vile.

There was so much to explore with Elena. Was she a mother at 15? Were she and Fernando happy before Miguel's cancer diagnosis? How did her vulnerability because of her son's cancer throw her life out of kilter and lead to the affair with Jonathan? Did she become an obsessed stalker or was Jonathan assuring her that they would be together? Was she an up and coming artist? So much left on the table.

That being said, perhaps Jonathan paid for the studio space for her from the $500K that Franklin gave to him.

11 hours ago, SourK said:

Even taking the dog story at face value, when Jonathan said it was really about his sister, my first question was, "How do you get from that to 'we can't get a dog because I killed mine'?" Like, there's something perverse about twisting the story that way, even if it were true.

Wouldn't it be more likely that Jonathan would have refused to have children? Instead of hhaving a child but refusing to get a dog?

2 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

100% right there with you.  Lily Rabe serves no actual point in the show unless she did it. 

Bingo.

2 hours ago, BC4ME said:

And while we're at it...the real Johnathan is 60 years old. For whatever type of cosmetic stuff that has happened to Nichole Kidman, she's still 53. So even fudging their ages in the show, they're still older people. What I want to know is what about the other 30 (or 40) years these people have been adults? They have a young boy. Are they supposed to be in their 30s on the show? 

Hugh Grant's character had this accident with the sister literally decades ago. His mother says she hasn't spoken to Grace in ten years since the wedding or something like that. And that he basically hasn't spoken to his family since college. Well, there's a whole lot of time between college and when they get married if the characters are age appropriate. Even Grace, who if age appropriate to real life had a child in her 40s. 

The show just conveniently erases literal decades of these characters' lives when you just know shit must've happened.

Again, so much fertile ground left unplowed. Why aren't you and I and our fellow posters in the writing rooms for this?

48 minutes ago, TVMovieBuff said:

I wonder what will happen to the baby. Jonathan said he would take her, I don't know if that is good or not. Or whether Grace would raise her. 

Lawd, no. Not Grace.