S24.E12: After the Final Rose

[JudyObscure]

Just because Barbara's a self-centered witch doesn't mean Madison isn't one too.

If I was jet lagged and production came and got me and my family up, did out make-up and hair and placed us on the couch with the cameras and cameramen in my face ... and then kept us there for three hours while my son sat outside with a whiny, indecisive girl who couldn't make up her mind whether she wanted to come in and meet me or not.  I would be inclined to dislike her, too. 

I don't know why anyone would assume it was production's fault, the Webers must have asked what the hold-up was a dozen times, and clearly they were told it was Madi not wanting to come it.  If it had been any other reason they would have found out in that time.  Then Madi breezes in and doesn't apologize, just starts telling them the ways in which their son didn't measure up to her standards and how she's not sure about him.

Madi's sneer and snotty winks while Barb was talking about the delay and the lack of apology said everything to me.  If it had been production's fault that would have been the time to say so, but no, Madi's was all "That was the past, I can't change it."

Evidently, apologizing when you're wrong isn't on Madi's list of Christian standards for herself, of forgiveness, or thoughtfulness of others, or respect for elders, in fact her standards are all about herself and how she expects others to treat her.

Final score for me:  Peter, Barbara and Madi all deserve each other.  Hannah Ann is no doubt happy with her performance and her escape.  Bring on the Clare show.

[Rainsong]

Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.

That was the tongue-in-cheek warning on the first page of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain but as with most of Twain’s writings the message was delivered on two levels – the literal and the allegorical (or symbolic or coded). 

Fortunately for me, Twain’s works are in the public domain vis-à-vis copyright or else his estate might have long ago come after me for royalties from a derivative work because I borrowed from (ahem) his method at will. I would have nothing to pay them with but internet likes but who knows they might want their cut anyway.

In the case of the final episode, however, I am unable to find a narrative and therefore unable to write one, so scattershot was the production and the editing. However, the motives, morals and plot were rather evident behind the scenes even if they remained unclear and chaotic under the unblinking camera eye.

As others have noted, the producers were not fighting a war of attrition; they were fighting a war AGAINST attrition. Having flown the circus to the Australian bush, their animals began wandering off – the potential for yet another invasive species endangering native wildlife was great. In a show where every cough and sneeze is recorded in HD video and Dolby sound, they managed to allow Madison to leave the production 2 full days before the finale without so much as a still photograph of her departure. It’s tempting to put this down to gross incompetence but perhaps the crew was granted some R&R time and were off duty prior to the engagement/disengagement scenes. The blurring of episodic lines between the finale and ATFR and some prior shows meant that The Proposal (kettle drums, violins, wind chimes) was shoehorned into the first quarter hour of this airing which no doubt raised the antennae of every person watching who had an IQ above room temperature. There was simply no way they were going to fill 1 hr 45 min (less commercials) with Hannah & Peter cooing like doves on the couch. As is increasingly the case, The Bachelor spoiled itself with no help required from Reality Steve or anyone else.

Another Twain quote, this time from Tom Sawyer as Tom was ordered to whitewash a fence as punishment. He surveyed the fence, and all gladness left him and a deep melancholy settled down upon his spirit. Thirty yards of board fence nine feet high. Life to him seemed hollow, and existence but a burden. Sighing, he dipped his brush and passed it along the topmost plank; repeated the operation; did it again; compared the insignificant whitewashed streak with the far-reaching continent of unwhitewashed fence, and sat down on a tree-box discouraged.

Like Tom, the producers faced a long hard slog to the end of the task as they attempted to wring drama from scenarios that lacked it. They were forced to create nearly 2 hrs of drama where none existed apart from a hacked-off Hannah and, God help us, Mother Barb.

Mama Barb – homemaker, cook, nurturer, cryer - gave way to Mother Barb as in Mother Superior – fussy, judgmental, disapproving, demanding, haughty. With the hair color change she looked like one of the aging actresses still brought onto Johnny Carson’s Tonight Show or, for those rapidly accelerating down the hill, the $20,000 Pyramid. A Briton might compare her to a pantomime villain – over-the-top melodrama with lots of evil cackling and an adversarial relationship with the audience who boo and hiss on command.

The inset shots of Mother Barb glaring at the video screen were inexplicably long and frequent. The inset shots of Hannah watching that which she already participated in were inexplicable (as in unnecessary) full stop. And, of course, there were inset shots of Peter doing the utterly fake sad cocker spaniel routine he’s perfected over two seasons of Bachelorwood.

Mother Bates – sorry, Mother Barb was entirely predictable and consistent. It was all about her. Lest we forget, Pete Sr was a pilot too, which meant he was absent the house for long stretches which only increased her power. Context, such as the unavoidable delays that are part and parcel of any video production with a large crew, was unimportant to her. Like many control freaks she carries a sword and shield forged from Attribution Errors – anything good that happens is the result of her words or deeds, anything bad that happens is someone else’s fault. It’s emasculated her husband and made her boys deathly afraid to say a contrary word to her. She spoke of supportive DMs but avoided any talk of what must have been a flood of negative feedback. Trolling is never a good thing but common sense tells us there must have been some, especially given the nature of this franchise.

It would take a heart of stone not to feel some sympathy for Hannah especially as she seemed to finally snap out of the gaslighting at the critical moment before the proposal. The skepticism on her face was evident throughout and by the time Peter did an Arie she adopted a grim, cynical smirk that no doubt many shared with her. As an avatar of the Instagram generation, Hannah was less upset about being a one-time-first-time fiancée and probably more upset that she didn’t get to post the captioned videos and photos that are de rigueur these days. A river of likes merely drained into the ocean.

To echo comments upthread about Chris Harrison, he went far beyond observer, referee and counselor to having a direct role in the outcome (BIP participants can identify). His eyes betrayed him as he went from feigned interest to a rather intense look in his desperation to rescue this season (he’s a producer too). Many of us probably had flashbacks to lame ‘XYZ likes you, do you like her?’ dialogue from 7th grade recess as Harrison brusquely demanded to know if Madison was in love with Peter and vice versa.

Madison probably thought they were going to go for a shot of her tonsils, so extreme were the close-up shots. Poor girl has a few problem spots in the complexion – don’t we all – and had them displayed on giant LED screens in the studio and across the nation. We can all agree that the strong-arming off-camera must have been intense, staged house or no. But she’s a sporting lass and consented to flying to LA  to appear on the show.

‘We don’t know what’s going to happen’ Harrison intoned repeatedly.  He thought it was a selling point but in hindsight it was a warning. Madison gamely appeared in the studio and for a fleeting few seconds it appeared engagement bliss might be in the offing until Mother Barb got involved.

Mother Barb gladly kicked Peter’s sandcastle over without waiting for the tide to come in and claim it. She faulted Madison for everything from cold coffee to rainy weekends while, of course, exonerating her ‘Bud’ whose nickname should be reversed to ‘Dub’ because everything that comes out of his mouth is a cliché or a second-hand phrase. He’s a tape recorder. An automaton. Pouty lip on cue. Touch forehead to female’s on cue etc etc.  To be fair Madison had plenty of trite phraseology at the ready including multiple references to the journey.

You saw a 25 year old male doing what a 15 year old male should do ie establish his own identity and tell a parent to back off. Unfortunately for for him it was far too late especially after Mother Barb tore a strip off Madison after Madison had ignored her own conscience and taken part in this farce. Madison’s body language was as legible as a billboard – she stiffened up, looked down and away and generally employed every coping mechanism possible to avoid saying what she really wanted to say – but we said it on her behalf from our vantage points.

The producers’ and director’s hair lay in clumps in the control room after they tore it out trying to manufacture a proposal only to have Mother Barb smash it to bits. ‘Taking it day by day’ is a far cry from Neil Lane And A Bended Knee and don’t they know it. There would be no repeat playing of The Proposal Crescendo (© Hacktastic Tunes, Ltd.), no cries of ‘WOOOO!’ from the studio audience, no promotional springboard for Harrison’s mention of upcoming series with or without Clare (ugh her again) appearing on stage.

Epilogue: Madison will return sensibly to Auburn. Alone. She will meet a State Farm agent who was a practice squad football player for the Tigers and has third-row seats right behind the bench where Madison sits in the second row. A move to Birmingham or Atlanta may ensue.

Peter will get involved with a divorced flight attendant who has long legs, a husky voice from sneaking cigarette breaks, a three year old kid and a dodgy ex who is behind on the child support payments.

Mother Barb will break into random crying jags and wonder why the phone doesn’t ring as often and why it’s never Peter’s number.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Rainsong

[tessa]

Sorry but I understand Barb's concern and personally I think Madison is a self indulgent privileged SOB looking for her 15 mins of fame. Sheknew coming onto the show that Peter had already done the dirty deed with Hannah and that he let his small head think for the big one. She knows what may happen in a fantasy suite. She should have long ago let her beliefs about the subject and how it may impact their relationship be known. Twitter is full of millennials who are so PC and see her as a strong woman and Barb as a nut. Wait until they have kids and are in a similar situation - it's not easy.

From a person who's parents didn't approve of their pick for a spouse - it's tough and they already have so many differences between them. Bet they break up within 4 months as Peter is not going to change his ways. Right now - she's the forbidden fruit he can't taste.

Another reason why I wanted Mike for the bachelor - this guy is a wimp.

[valen]

Even if Madi is a witch, though there has been no evidence of that, there is no excuse for that behavior from Peter's mom last night. You can voice your concerns without sounding so hateful. You don't have to have those facial expressions. You don't have to ask your husband to say something bad too in order to help you. There is. no. excuse. 

Madi is under contract. There are a lot of things she can't say. Besides that, arguing back and forth wasn't going to solve anything. Do you think Barb would have accepted any apology that Madi had to give? I don't think they are right for each other. I also think that Barb was unforgivably rude last night. Both things can be true.

[alexa]

42 minutes ago, keti said:

Well, well, well, mama Weber didn't do herself any favours tonight but one thing I will say, after voicing her complaints about Madi (waiting for 3 hours, not apologizing etc etc), Madi never addressed any of it, she just had this smug expression on her face and a smirk which makes me think there's more to this than meets the eye and Madi isn't necessarily an innocent little flower in this car crash series of events but I guess we'll never know for sure. It just strikes me odd that mama Weber would like HA so much and loathe Madi.

Trashing her son's chosen candidate was never going to achieve anything other than make her look like a classless nutcase.  At the end of the day I agree with her that this relationship will never last so why all the aggro, just sit back and watch it blow up and then you can have your precious son back.

Because there was probably a longer story that wasn't worth getting into on TV, and she is smarter than Barb and knows it isn't worth arguing about something on TV without having the time to share the whole story.  She actually did stand up for herself more than once.  And who would be all smiles and flowers when you have Barb angry at you on national TV simply because you aren't HA?  I mean, I can't really feel Madi is in the wrong here especially since we have no idea about the 3 hours thing, and as someone said earlier, that was really on Peter to explain--he was bringing her to meet the parents--for the 2nd time essentially)

40 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Just because Barbara's a self-centered witch doesn't mean Madison isn't one too.

If I was jet lagged and production came and got me and my family up, did out make-up and hair and placed us on the couch with the cameras and cameramen in my face ... and then kept us there for three hours while my son sat outside with a whiny, indecisive girl who couldn't make up her mind whether she wanted to come in and meet me or not.  I would be inclined to dislike her, too. 

I don't know why anyone would assume it was production's fault, the Webers must have asked what the hold-up was a dozen times, and clearly they were told it was Madi not wanting to come it.  If it had been any other reason they would have found out in that time.  Then Madi breezes in and doesn't apologize, just starts telling them the ways in which their son didn't measure up to her standards and how she's not sure about him.

Madi's sneer and snotty winks while Barb was talking about the delay and the lack of apology said everything to me.  If it had been production's fault that would have been the time to say so, but no, Madi's was all "That was the past, I can't change it."

Evidently, apologizing when you're wrong isn't on Madi's list of Christian standards for herself, of forgiveness, or thoughtfulness of others, or respect for elders, in fact her standards are all about herself and how she expects others to treat her.

Final score for me:  Peter, Barbara and Madi all deserve each other.  Hannah Ann is no doubt happy with her performance and her escape.  Bring on the Clare show.

We have no idea any of it was Madi's fault or that Peter didn't have anything to do with it, etc.  I guess I see it all in a completely different way.  I think there wasn't much Madi could do to appease dear mom, ever.  She already wasn't HA and that was going against her.

[lauralu]

58 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Just because Barbara's a self-centered witch doesn't mean Madison isn't one too.

If I was jet lagged and production came and got me and my family up, did out make-up and hair and placed us on the couch with the cameras and cameramen in my face ... and then kept us there for three hours while my son sat outside with a whiny, indecisive girl who couldn't make up her mind whether she wanted to come in and meet me or not.  I would be inclined to dislike her, too. 

I don't know why anyone would assume it was production's fault, the Webers must have asked what the hold-up was a dozen times, and clearly they were told it was Madi not wanting to come it.  If it had been any other reason they would have found out in that time.  Then Madi breezes in and doesn't apologize, just starts telling them the ways in which their son didn't measure up to her standards and how she's not sure about him.

Madi's sneer and snotty winks while Barb was talking about the delay and the lack of apology said everything to me.  If it had been production's fault that would have been the time to say so, but no, Madi's was all "That was the past, I can't change it."

Evidently, apologizing when you're wrong isn't on Madi's list of Christian standards for herself, of forgiveness, or thoughtfulness of others, or respect for elders, in fact her standards are all about herself and how she expects others to treat her.

Final score for me:  Peter, Barbara and Madi all deserve each other.  Hannah Ann is no doubt happy with her performance and her escape.  Bring on the Clare show.

YES! to this entire post.  So much UGH to go around.  Barb is.....just Wow. She's alot. But I don't blame her for her feelings about Madison but she surely could've handled herself better than she did.   Madison, I just cant put my finger on it but she just seems so unpleasant.  I saw no great personality, none of the things they wanted us to see in her.  She's pretty but that's about it.  I applaud her for sticking to her convictions but she must've forgot she went on a trashy TV show called The Bachelor and somehow she forgot to mention her convictions until the night before the fantasy suite.   Hannah Ann, I was impressed she told Peter off, but again she also must've forgot she went on a trashy TV show. The very premise is that this person is in multiple relationships at the same time until the very end so I didn't get her big "gotcha" moment when she accused him of being in 3 relationships.  Also I get she was pissed but she's started feeling herself a little too much during the screw you speech and I thought she went a little too far considering she knew very well she was his second choice.  She looked great on the aftershow though.  Peter Peter Peter, I like him, I cant help it. He's a wishy-washy man baby, probably can thank Barb for that, but he did OK standing up to her on TV.  He's not a monster, he's just bland and not cut out for this.  So in my opinion they're all insufferable.

Edited March 11, 2020 by lauralu

[neece26]

Barb is not wrong about Peter and Madison's incompatibility and she is also a crazy person.   Pete's Dad also made a good observation about the early stages of a new relationship being the fun, happy times not the angsty, mirthless, downright depressing energy that Peter and Madison's relationship is filled with.   I would say there is a zero chance those two work out.

Nevertheless, Peter's family is very dysfunctional and Barb is waaaayyy too involved in her adult son's lives.  The sons share the blame for continuing to live at home and not cutting the cord.  Peter is emotionally stunted which explains why he goes into his goofy, pouty, brooding, puppy eyed behaviors instead of acting like a grownup and owning his actions.  

[Dittohead]

42 minutes ago, Rainsong said:

she looked like one of the aging actresses still brought onto Johnny Carson’s Tonight Show or, for those rapidly accelerating down the hill, the $20,000 Pyramid.

This literally  made me laugh out loud, which is rare for a person  who  finds very little to be amused by these days.  Thank you.

 

[TomGirl]

59 minutes ago, Rainsong said:

Peter will get involved with a divorced flight attendant who has long legs, a husky voice from sneaking cigarette breaks, a three year old kid and a dodgy ex who is behind on the child support payments.

Mother Barb will break into random crying jags and wonder why the phone doesn’t ring as often and why it’s never Peter’s number.

And, the Oscar goes to.... Rainsong!  The torch of Danny Drennan has been well and truly passed!  💜

[DEL901]

Hannah Ann gives some more information:

https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/pictures/hannah-anns-1st-post-bachelor-interview-revelations/looking-back-and-ahead/

Quote

Timeline Breakdown

She also explained the timeline. Filming wrapped right before Thanksgiving in November, they spent New Year's together and ended things at the very end of January. Before flying out, she asked Peter to give her a heads up if he was ending things — he did not.

Quote

Looking Back — and Ahead

Watching the season was "really helpful" for Hannah Ann. "It’s helped me work through any unresolved feelings I had toward him because I’m able to see how he is consistently indecisive and confused. And who wants to be with that? That doesn't make me feel secure in being with him," the model shared. "So it’s really helped me move forward because I know I deserve more than someone half loving me. I deserve someone that’s going to give me 100 percent, and I felt like me being so clear and not playing mind games with him, that he would give me that in return. But really, he was just reckless with my heart."

 

[DEL901]

https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/peters-mom-barbara-invites-kelley-to-lunch-after-madison-showdown/

 

Quote

Kelley, 28, was in the audience at the live After the Final Rose taping in Los Angeles on Tuesday, March 10.

“That’s a wrap!” she wrote alongside a photo from the evening via Instagram. “What a great experience and will always be grateful for the opportunity to join season 24! ”

Barbara was quick to comment on the post with an invite, “We need to do lunch and go shopping for the day. ”

 

[Jax7917]

Maddie and Peter will surely be broken up by paradise, and she and Hannah Ann will be a hit there. Madi is much better off in paradise than with Peter because at least there, she will have a lot to choose from and can pick whoever she wants. I predict Hannah Ann will be the Hannah G of last season in paradise where all the guys will say they are here to meet her. She's pretty and sweet. Kelsey will be the one who likes all the guys, cries constantly.. but they friend zone her.

[GracieK]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Just because Barbara's a self-centered witch doesn't mean Madison isn't one too.

If I was jet lagged and production came and got me and my family up, did out make-up and hair and placed us on the couch with the cameras and cameramen in my face ... and then kept us there for three hours while my son sat outside with a whiny, indecisive girl who couldn't make up her mind whether she wanted to come in and meet me or not.  I would be inclined to dislike her, too. 

I don't know why anyone would assume it was production's fault, the Webers must have asked what the hold-up was a dozen times, and clearly they were told it was Madi not wanting to come it.  If it had been any other reason they would have found out in that time.  Then Madi breezes in and doesn't apologize, just starts telling them the ways in which their son didn't measure up to her standards and how she's not sure about him.

Madi's sneer and snotty winks while Barb was talking about the delay and the lack of apology said everything to me.  If it had been production's fault that would have been the time to say so, but no, Madi's was all "That was the past, I can't change it."

Evidently, apologizing when you're wrong isn't on Madi's list of Christian standards for herself, of forgiveness, or thoughtfulness of others, or respect for elders, in fact her standards are all about herself and how she expects others to treat her.

Final score for me:  Peter, Barbara and Madi all deserve each other.  Hannah Ann is no doubt happy with her performance and her escape.  Bring on the Clare show.

We will never know for sure because we don't know any of these people, but just based on how Madi conducted herself all season, and how Peter's mom has behaved, even going back to Hannah B's season.. I'm giving Madi the benefit of the doubt.  She never involved herself in any of the drama and never bad mouthed the other girls.  I didn't take her expressions on stage to be smirking but rather, put on the spot and trying to look composed and not let Mama cause her to show anger or frustration.  Like she was trying to look out to a familiar face and someone she knew supported her and was smiling like.. what the hell do I do  with maybe a touch of I told you bitch was crazy. Sometimes people don't know what face to make when confronted. I know I've personally been attacked as looking smug or insensitive in highly tense confrontations, when inside I'm feeling anxious or scared. 

Mom on the other hand has consistently shown to not be able to conduct herself in a mature manner.  Her wild fist pumping over the windmill escapade, the histrionics when greeting her son, and her applause when HA was excoriating her own child.. and of course her complete disdain for Madi both during the visit in Australia and on stage last night are so beyond some perceived tardiness or whatever her problem with Madi was.  I just have a tough time believing that was the real issue when she expressed her distaste BEFORE any of that went down... it started when Peter explained that they were struggling because of Madi's opinions over Fantasy Suites.  Mom had made her decision that HA was the perfect  embodiment of what SHE was when she was young, and made up her mind that HA was his perfect romance story book ending.  I think she's a vile and toxic woman, and I hope that Madison runs from this family.  The woman literally leaned over to her husband and said "say something bad too".. what in the actual fuck.. that's just evil.  I didn't personally see so much love between her and Peter that it would make those challenges worth overcoming.  

I know you weren't in any way defending mom here... I just tend to give Madison a bit more leeway because she's young and has been rather inoffensive to me other than her complete disregard for my ears with her constant use of the word like 🙂

Edited March 11, 2020 by GracieK

[Pj3422]

12 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

Now I’m going to have a nightmare with her standing over me with a melee weapon, jowls aquiver sobbing “This is what a love story is made of you dirty bird”! Then whack, there goes my ankle. 

I LOVE the conflating of Barb with Kathy Bates in “Misery.”

[BACH5]

Madison is a spoiled rotten B**CH.  Don't worry Hannah Ann, Madison will dump Peter soon.  Madison is so spoiled she just didn't want to lose a competition since she eats from a silver spoon.  Once the winning feeling wears off, she will dump him.  She doesn't love him or his family.  Such a joke.  Shame on Harrison for going to visit Madison and push the "fake" love she has.  She just wanted to see herself on tv one more time and show off some of her clothes.  Everyone can see that Hannah Ann is gorgeous and genuine-not ugly, fake and self-centered like Madison.  Oh by the way-lose the ugly eyelashes, Madison.  Do they naturally curl that funky way?  I never expected the Bachelor to allow someone so ugly and rude to be a contestant.  All Madison cares about is herself.  If my daughter ever treated another adult like she treated Peter's family, I would want to crawl in a hole and die.  Nobody wants their daughter to grow up to be disrespectful and rude.  

Hanna Ann is the winner of this show.  She is the only one that came out smelling like a rose.

[nutty1]

32 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

Hannah Ann gives some more information:

https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/pictures/hannah-anns-1st-post-bachelor-interview-revelations/looking-back-and-ahead/

 

I am still confused on the Hannah B part...... did Peter say something to HA about closure with HB, AFTER they got engaged??

From the article:

Hannah Brown ... Again?

Hannah Ann didn't reveal if Peter really reached out to his ex, Hannah Brown, but did say when he told her he wanted "closure," Hannah Ann hadn't seen the episode yet, which featured them getting cozy. "I had no idea. ... When he brought that up, I'm like, 'Wait what?' ... Why should I feel comfortable with this? This is something where you don’t feel like you’re ready for any kind of commitment let alone engagement. That was the first red flag. I was questioning my own self."

When asked if he got the closure, Hannah Ann said, "No. That was about a week before we broke up."

[nutty1]

THIS is what they care about...not Peter, not Madi, not HA.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/the-bachelor-finale-4-year-high-tv-ratings-1203530130/

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Juniperjen said:

I am flabbergasted by Barb’s behavior last night.

I find it HILARIOUS that I used the exact same word to a friend just now, regarding Barb!

[DEL901]

11 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

THIS is what they care about...not Peter, not Madi, not HA.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/the-bachelor-finale-4-year-high-tv-ratings-1203530130/

 

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I find it HILARIOUS that I used the exact same word to a friend just now, regarding Barb!

 

Yup to both.  Just exactly what did Barb thing she was accomplishing?  Peter was already seen as week willed and indecisive... now mommy is trying to run the show for a 28 year old gainfully employed (for now) son?

I'm sure that all his future coworkers and passengers have the utmost faith in and respect for a man who still parties all of his days off, still lives at home and brings his women to spend the night (and spend the morning with mom cooking him breakfast).

[Ms Blue Jay]

35 minutes ago, Pj3422 said:

I LOVE the conflating of Barb with Kathy Bates in “Misery.”

Mommie Dearest, Batshit Barb ( @EllenB), I love all these nicknames and comparisons they're honestly very funny

[cinsays]

41 minutes ago, GracieK said:

We will never know for sure because we don't know any of these people, but just based on how Madi conducted herself all season, and how Peter's mom has behaved, even going back to Hannah B's season.. I'm giving Madi the benefit of the doubt.  She never involved herself in any of the drama and never bad mouthed the other girls.  I didn't take her expressions on stage to be smirking but rather, put on the spot and trying to look composed and not let Mama cause her to show anger or frustration.  Like she was trying to look out to a familiar face and someone she knew supported her and was smiling like.. what the hell do I do  with maybe a touch of I told you bitch was crazy. Sometimes people don't know what face to make when confronted. I know I've personally been attacked as looking smug or insensitive in highly tense confrontations, when inside I'm feeling anxious or scared. 

Mom on the other hand has consistently shown to not be able to conduct herself in a mature manner.  Her wild fist pumping over the windmill escapade, the histrionics when greeting her son, and her applause when HA was excoriating her own child.. and of course her complete disdain for Madi both during the visit in Australia and on stage last night are so beyond some perceived tardiness or whatever her problem with Madi was.  I just have a tough time believing that was the real issue when she expressed her distaste BEFORE any of that went down... it started when Peter explained that they were struggling because of Madi's opinions over Fantasy Suites.  Mom had made her decision that HA was the perfect  embodiment of what SHE was when she was young, and made up her mind that HA was his perfect romance story book ending.  I think she's a vile and toxic woman, and I hope that Madison runs from this family.  The woman literally leaned over to her husband and said "say something bad too".. what in the actual fuck.. that's just evil.  I didn't personally see so much love between her and Peter that it would make those challenges worth overcoming.  

I know you weren't in any way defending mom here... I just tend to give Madison a bit more leeway because she's young and has been rather inoffensive to me other than her complete disregard for my ears with her constant use of the word like 🙂

I agree. I think Madison was just smart enough to not want to get into with an obviously deranged woman.  I didn't see smirking, I saw a "holy shit, can you believe this woman" expression.

[mishap]

 So I read through this whole thread to find out why Kelley was there.  So there really was no reason?  I thought maybe it missed it because  I watched it on Hulu this morning.   Was she just there to appease those who were upset she was't on   the WTA?   

Why was the ring guy there?   To make us think there would be a proposal?  

Chris kept saying something along the lines of, " you think you know how thing end up, but you don't."     Sorry Chris , but that is pretty much what  I thought would happen and I think that's what most of us thought would happen.  ha ha

I did not expect Barb's audition for  Monster - in -Law, Unhinged.    That was fun.  She was so awful.  

I did enjoy all the snark in this thread and I agree with everything.  

I just wish somehow, Barb could have been punched in the face by someone.  Anyone.  

 

[DEL901]

I wonder what Victoria the homewrecker is up to?  I'd love to see her drop by the Weber household. If only she could have been F2.   Wouldn't Barb just to have her around Pete Sr.

Edited March 11, 2020 by DEL901

[Starlight925]

4 minutes ago, mishap said:

 So I read through this whole thread to find out why Kelley was there.  So there really was no reason?  I thought maybe it missed it because  I watched it on Hulu this morning.   Was she just there to appease those who were upset she was't on   the WTA?   

Why was the ring guy there?   To make us think there would be a proposal?  

Chris kept saying something along the lines of, " you think you know how thing end up, but you don't."     Sorry Chris , but that is pretty much what  I thought would happen and I think that's what most of us thought would happen.  ha ha

I did not expect Barb's audition for  Monster - in -Law, Unhinged.    That was fun.  She was so awful.  

I did enjoy all the snark in this thread and I agree with everything.  

I just wish somehow, Barb could have been punched in the face by someone.  Anyone.  

 

I think Kelley was there because she specifically wasn’t invited to the “Women Tell All”, because production was afraid of what she might say.  There was a lot of backlash, so it appears that she was invited last night so that production could show no hard feelings.  

Neil Lane was there with his collection of rings because production was hoping for a happily ever after, Peter gets down on his knee, proposes to Madison, and the family all hugs and sings koombaya (sp.?).  Obviously did. Not. Happen.  

Edited March 11, 2020 by Sterling

[thesupremediva1]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Just because Barbara's a self-centered witch doesn't mean Madison isn't one too.

If I was jet lagged and production came and got me and my family up, did out make-up and hair and placed us on the couch with the cameras and cameramen in my face ... and then kept us there for three hours while my son sat outside with a whiny, indecisive girl who couldn't make up her mind whether she wanted to come in and meet me or not.  I would be inclined to dislike her, too. 

I don't know why anyone would assume it was production's fault, the Webers must have asked what the hold-up was a dozen times, and clearly they were told it was Madi not wanting to come it.  If it had been any other reason they would have found out in that time.  Then Madi breezes in and doesn't apologize, just starts telling them the ways in which their son didn't measure up to her standards and how she's not sure about him.

Madi's sneer and snotty winks while Barb was talking about the delay and the lack of apology said everything to me.  If it had been production's fault that would have been the time to say so, but no, Madi's was all "That was the past, I can't change it."

Evidently, apologizing when you're wrong isn't on Madi's list of Christian standards for herself, of forgiveness, or thoughtfulness of others, or respect for elders, in fact her standards are all about herself and how she expects others to treat her.

Final score for me:  Peter, Barbara and Madi all deserve each other.  Hannah Ann is no doubt happy with her performance and her escape.  Bring on the Clare show.

Thank you! No one asked Madison to compromise her values. They asked her to understand that those do not match Peter's and that he will likely not be changing to match hers.

And it seemed quite clear that the 3-hour holdup had nothing to do with production, but with Madi not wanting to meet the family or continue on in the process. At that point, I'd have had Barb's reaction - s&$% or get off the pot, honey, you're not that important.

And then she self-eliminated anyway. Tiresome. She's as indecisive as Peter and ya know what, I think she's as self-righteous and judgmental as Luke P. She just gets away with it because these sort of "values" are more socially acceptable coming from a woman. 

If it was my brother, my friend, my dad, my kid - I, too, would be all for choosing the person who said they were in love with my family member and showing the door to someone who was just wishy-washy and rude. 

I get that hating on Barb is fun, and man did she leave herself wide open to it (have some common sense and cover up the crazy for the cameras),  but I have seen cracks in the oh-so-perfect Madison facade from the get-go, and last night just showed me that she's basically as self-centered as Barb and has zero ability to apologize or show warmth. 

[nlkm9]

10 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

It surely went a little something like... "So Kelly, let's just move on here okay? If you're willing to come back and sit in the final audience like everything is all good we'll give you a slot on BiP."

the element of live tv and mommys craziness took up a lot of time. if she wasnt on live tv, I bet she would have been yanked out of there with a cane!!

[DEL901]

1 hour ago, DEL901 said:

 

Somehow quoted myself.  Nothing to see here.

Edited March 11, 2020 by DEL901

[waving feather]

What I didn't like about Madison is how she kept repeating that this is her journey too. I mean, no one told her it wasn't. She said it twice, once to Peter's mom during meet the parents and second time at the ATFR. It's like someone coached her to say it or she came up with that on her own and was very proud of it and has to keep repeating it, when the person she is saying to (Barb) did not question that.

And she is no better than Peter in her wishy-washiness. She told him during Fantasy Suites that she couldn't continue with him if he had sex with others, then she left in the middle of the date, then she came back and accepted his rose, then she came to Meet the Parents sulking and being "in a mood" (to quote Victoria), and then she left again! And now she is BACK because Chris Harrison went to get her. Not Peter, but Chris Harrison.

Peter is less sincere with Madison than Arie was with Lauren, because at least Arie went himself to get Lauren. Their relationship is doomed. I don't think she even really likes him at this point.

Edited March 11, 2020 by waving feather

[the-grey-lady]

Peter (to Hannah Ann): I love you, but also someone else. I might propose to either of you.

[the next day]

Peter: Hannah Ann might not be coming! That makes no sense!

Me: It's a mystery all right.

[SallyAlbright]

Thinking back on all this, I wonder how much Madison was forced to come back for the live show. I don't think she's actually with Peter at all, and I don't think it will last even if she's entertaining the idea. I kind of think the producers needed someone there at the end, since the whole season was a train wreck.

I still think she conducted herself well in the face of someone who was unhinged. There is no excuse for the mother's behavior whether or not she liked Madison. I don't like plenty of people but have never gone off on someone like that, especially not in public. Madison will be fine - it's Peter that the mother hurt with her nonsense. 

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t watch the show but I listen to a radio show on the way to work that is obsessed with it.  So my question is why doesn’t Barb and Pete just move to a state they can legally marry?  They’d probably both be happy because let’s face it....Pete is gonna be  living  with mom and dating younger versions of her....forever.

i know the type.

Ive actually dated the type.

It’s actually kinda spooky when you look at a picture of someone’s  mom when she was your age and she could be your sister.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[JenE4]

5 hours ago, econ07 said:

This is hilariously staged ... wouldn't this girl want to know why Peter didn't fly down there himself? ... why he sent a proxy?

But supposedly Harrison acted as matchmaker all on his own.

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Just because Barbara's a self-centered witch doesn't mean Madison isn't one too.

If I was jet lagged and production came and got me and my family up, did out make-up and hair and placed us on the couch with the cameras and cameramen in my face ... and then kept us there for three hours while my son sat outside with a whiny, indecisive girl who couldn't make up her mind whether she wanted to come in and meet me or not.  I would be inclined to dislike her, too. 

I don't know why anyone would assume it was production's fault, the Webers must have asked what the hold-up was a dozen times, and clearly they were told it was Madi not wanting to come it.  If it had been any other reason they would have found out in that time.  Then Madi breezes in and doesn't apologize, just starts telling them the ways in which their son didn't measure up to her standards and how she's not sure about him.

Madi's sneer and snotty winks while Barb was talking about the delay and the lack of apology said everything to me.  If it had been production's fault that would have been the time to say so, but no, Madi's was all "That was the past, I can't change it."

Evidently, apologizing when you're wrong isn't on Madi's list of Christian standards for herself, of forgiveness, or thoughtfulness of others, or respect for elders, in fact her standards are all about herself and how she expects others to treat her.

Final score for me:  Peter, Barbara and Madi all deserve each other.  Hannah Ann is no doubt happy with her performance and her escape.  Bring on the Clare show.

You got it right, Judy. Lots of people are saying there’s no way to know whether Madison kept them waiting, but we saw this all on TV! Peter was with his parents and they were wondering where Madison was. Then he gets word that she’s there so he goes out to bring her in, and instead of going straight in, they sat down on a wall and had a very dramatic talk. Granted, we don’t know whether this took 3 hours, but this was certainly Madi “wasting time” unsure of whether to continue on the journey. Barbara is dramatic so she makes it about “meeting her” but it’s really about whether she wants to forgive Peter. Then they finally go inside and Barbara immediately jumps in on where were you and what’s going on, and the whole family has a talk about their problematic relationship.

[b2H]

11 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

It surely went a little something like... "So Kelly, let's just move on here okay? If you're willing to come back and sit in the final audience like everything is all good we'll give you a slot on BiP."

I'm not convinced that Kelley was there as window dressing.  I think they might've had a sit down with her, except that the whole last hour of this monstrosity was tied up with 'As the Stomach Turns' with Peter, Madi and Barb.  That went on so long, it pushed the show 4 minutes past its ending.  Certainly any hopes they had for Kelley getting a segment were dashed when that ate the show.

I haven't read Reality Steve yet, to see what he has to say about last night, but the best thing I can say about it is:  Thank G-d it's over.  These people must never darken my doorway ever again.

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I wish Madison had just said "Peter who?" and not let herself get dragged back into this mess, but she handled herself very well against Barbzilla's vitriol.

Or, to quote the late Nancy Reagan, just said no.

[b2H]

6 hours ago, PhysNerd said:

However, I think it is rude to keep someone waiting for 3hrs and not offer an apology.  Yes, it was most likely production that delayed things but Maddie would've appeared very classy by saying,"  I was told to show up at [insert time].  I had no idea that you were waiting 3hrs for me.  I apologize."  Instead she just smirked.  This made Maddie seem ill-mannered and did not show her in a good light.

Madi has probably never been personally attacked like that harridan did ever in her life.  It's tough to know when you're being attacked how to appropriately respond in a way that won't just make the attack worse.  I've been there.  Madi didn't know where it was coming from and she couldn't break the fourth wall and tell the truth, so she kept her counsel and deflected.  I have no problem with her response.  His mother deserved nothing out of this scenario that she tried to make all about her when she had no business in it.

[Jax7917]

20 minutes ago, waving feather said:

What I didn't like about Madison is how she kept repeating that this is her journey too. I mean, no one told her it wasn't. She said it twice, once to Peter's mom during meet the parents and second time at the ATFR. It's like someone coached her to say it or she came up with that on her own and was very proud of it and has to keep repeating it, when the person she is saying to (Barb) did not question that.

And she is no better than Peter in her wishy-washiness. She told him during Fantasy Suites that she couldn't continue with him if he had sex with others, then she left in the middle of the date, then she came back and accepted his rose, then she came to Meet the Parents sulking and being "in a mood" (to quote Victoria), and then she left again! And now she is BACK because Chris Harrison went to get her. Not Peter, but Chris Harrison.

Peter is less sincere with Madison than Arie was with Lauren, because at least Arie went himself to get Lauren. Their relationship is doomed. I don't think she even really likes him at this point.

I agree with the part about her being wishy washy with her feelings and "expectations." But I think she was valid in saying it was her journey too . Peter's mom kept making it like Madi was the devil because her values didn't match up with baby boy's. Her saying that it's her journey too was more of her telling his mom that this was none of her business and Peter is not the only one who is affected by what happens. His mom didn't like that she had any opinions or say in anything. It is normal to ask someone not to sleep with other women if that person is serious about an engagement with them. If he knew she wasn't the one, fine.. but if she is the one.. then have the courtesy of not sleeping with two other women days before proposing. 

[b2H]

4 hours ago, DEL901 said:

I would think it would be up to Peter to take the lead and apologise to his mother. 

I know no one wants to hear about Dr. Phil here, but when there are issues with the in-laws, it's up to the biological child to take care of those issues.  Peter needed to stand up to his mother's attack and put a stop to it.  He was probably told to some degree to let it go on a bit, but it went too far and, by the time she finally ran out of breath, it was too late for Peter to do much of it.

It's one of the few things I agree with with Dr. Phil:  the bio kid must manage the bio in laws.

[b2H]

2 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Madi is much better off in paradise

Not so sure she will agree to do Paradise.  That's just not a venue she will be able to operate well in.  Way too secular and in too much violation of her personal ethics and standards.  I will be highly surprised if we see Madi in the franchise anymore, given her experience.

[Mu Shu]

2 hours ago, neece26 said:

Barb is not wrong about Peter and Madison's incompatibility and she is also a crazy person.   Pete's Dad also made a good observation about the early stages of a new relationship being the fun, happy times not the angsty, mirthless, downright depressing energy that Peter and Madison's relationship is filled with.   I would say there is a zero chance those two work out.

Nevertheless, Peter's family is very dysfunctional and Barb is waaaayyy too involved in her adult son's lives.  The sons share the blame for continuing to live at home and not cutting the cord.  Peter is emotionally stunted which explains why he goes into his goofy, pouty, brooding, puppy eyed behaviors instead of acting like a grownup and owning his actions.  

If they think the Madison relationship was bad, how about Victoria? ALL his relationships were bad, and it’s because of his passive father and overly involved mother. That was real. Those people are messed up little monkeys. Peter has been taught to respond to histrionics and difficult relationships. 

[Recyclorette]

3 hours ago, tessa said:

Sorry but I understand Barb's concern and personally I think Madison is a self indulgent privileged SOB looking for her 15 mins of fame. Sheknew coming onto the show that Peter had already done the dirty deed with Hannah and that he let his small head think for the big one. She knows what may happen in a fantasy suite. She should have long ago let her beliefs about the subject and how it may impact their relationship be known. Twitter is full of millennials who are so PC and see her as a strong woman and Barb as a nut. Wait until they have kids and are in a similar situation - it's not easy.

From a person who's parents didn't approve of their pick for a spouse - it's tough and they already have so many differences between them. Bet they break up within 4 months as Peter is not going to change his ways. Right now - she's the forbidden fruit he can't taste.

Another reason why I wanted Mike for the bachelor - this guy is a wimp.

I respectfully disagree.  Barbara's concern is for herself, not Peter.  She wants a daughter-in-law she can control, and Madison proved not to be that.  It's not her business if Peter is making a mistake; he's an adult and that is his choice.  It's no surprise that the two Weber boys look so young (I believe Barbara said the brother was 25?  He looks to be no more than 18!).  They are treated like children.  Barbara's prying and involvement in their life is not normal or healthy.  

I do agree that Madison could have handled herself better when it came to informing Peter of her beliefs.  She should have told him plainly and much sooner about keeping herself for marriage.  As for him sleeping with other women, I think she was trying NOT to give him an ultimatum and I respect her for that.  I also respect that, unlike Luke P, Madison was basically quiet about her faith and not self-righteous and preachy.

[waving feather]

Why did Madison look more sure of their relationship than Peter during ATFR? When asked if he still loved Madison, he took a long pause before saying "yes". Like he had to really think about it. And when Chris asked him where does their relationship go from here, he took a long pause before saying they will see how it goes, step by step, etc. His answers are all reasonable by normal standards but this is Peter, who loves using hyperbole and grand declarations.

[Sweet-tea]

17 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Mother deserves all the Internet trolling she's getting, plus then some. Is she that much of a dumbass that she doesn't know how this show works? And is Dad laughing his ass off at his wife becoming laughing stock gifs and memes that will last forever.

Peter is WAY dysfunctional, and now we know why. And he's not going to change. Any woman he marries better get ready to move into Peter's bedroom in Mom's basement, where they will live forever.

 

So true! He is the ultimate mama’s boy. Run Madison!

That was awkward to watch. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a parent so openly hostile to the Bachelor’s pick. I agree with the dad that they have their work cut out for them if it’s this tough in the beginning. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Sweet-tea

[Recyclorette]

I'm going to make one more comment and then really try to shut up.

My absolute favorite moment of the night was when Hannah Ann told Peter that if he wanted to be with a woman, he needed to be a man.  The look on Papa Weber's face was priceless!  He looked at Batshit Barbara like, what does she mean?

[nutty1]

27 minutes ago, waving feather said:

Why did Madison look more sure of their relationship than Peter during ATFR? When asked if he still loved Madison, he took a long pause before saying "yes". Like he had to really think about it. And when Chris asked him where does their relationship go from here, he took a long pause before saying they will see how it goes, step by step, etc. His answers are all reasonable by normal standards but this is Peter, who loves using hyperbole and grand declarations.

He was probably afraid mommy would come on stage and scold him if he said yes.

[saber5055]

40 minutes ago, waving feather said:

When asked if he still loved Madison, he took a long pause before saying "yes".

Actually, he didn't say "Yes," he said "Yeah," which is not exactly the definitive answer that "yes" is.

I'm glad to know my instincts were right. I disliked Peter during Hannah's season and disliked him so much this season that I quit watching. But I have to say, last night kept me glued to the tv (and to this thread live posting, so much fun!) and as another poster said, I could have watched one more hour of the Demon Mother Dreck Peter show.

I cannot imagine what the people who live next to Demon Mother and who work with Moma's Boy Peter think today. How can anyone take him seriously or want to be on any plane he pilots. Although I can't imagine him having friends, so there's that.

[cinsays]

1 hour ago, Recyclorette said:

I respectfully disagree.  Barbara's concern is for herself, not Peter.  She wants a daughter-in-law she can control, and Madison proved not to be that.  It's not her business if Peter is making a mistake; he's an adult and that is his choice.  It's no surprise that the two Weber boys look so young (I believe Barbara said the brother was 25?  He looks to be no more than 18!).  They are treated like children.  Barbara's prying and involvement in their life is not normal or healthy.  

I do agree that Madison could have handled herself better when it came to informing Peter of her beliefs.  She should have told him plainly and much sooner about keeping herself for marriage.  As for him sleeping with other women, I think she was trying NOT to give him an ultimatum and I respect her for that.  I also respect that, unlike Luke P, Madison was basically quiet about her faith and not self-righteous and preachy.

I totally agree - his mom is smothering Peter and his brother.  ugh

Madison probably thought that if he fell in love with her the rest would fall into place, so she did not tell him about her values/beliefs earlier, so he would give her a chance.  I sure hope she realizes his family will not let this relationship work and finds someone more suitable.

[valen]

Steve has insider info up about last night, but I can’t get it to load. 

[DEL901]

https://people.com/tv/peter-weber-mom-comments-kelley-flanagan-photos/

OMG, Barb's Instagram handle is:  sweetnums!

Quote

“The Most Beautiful, Elegant, Classy, Intelligent Stylish Girl in the World!!!” Barbara wrote. “You were and will always be my Fav rav.”

 

[saber5055]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

the Webers must have asked what the hold-up was a dozen times, and clearly they were told it was Madi not wanting to come it. 

Which creates drah-mah, what this franchise and TPTB are all about. No one ever said this franchise is honest about setting people up to be hurt, start crying, create ... DRAH-MAH!

Madison was right to say, basically, "Get over it and move on." Something Demon Mother can't do, obviously.

Peter's parents got a free trip to Australia. IMO, they are the whiny asses. And Demon Mother getting a "no" to her asking if Madison is "madly in love with"  her son ... WTH does she expect? I'd be worried if anyone replied "yes" to that stupid question.

2 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

OMG, Barb's Instagram handle is:  sweetnums!

Where is the "puke" icon?

[Adeejay]

8 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Oh, and the Hannah Brown “closure request” definitely happened while he was engaged to Hannah Ann. HA had the brilliant line of there being three women in their engagement—that he was still hung-up on both Madison and Hannah B, too. 

This morning, I listened to an interview that Hannah did with Rachel and Becca on their podcast.  Peter and Hannah got engaged in November.  Right before the show premiered in January, Peter informed Hannah that he was going to speak to Hannah Brown, again, because he needed closure.  Hannah Ann said she didn't understand why and it made her upset.  However, the icing on the cake was when she saw the show and the scene where Peter and Hannah B were curled up on the couch and he was crying about still wanting to be with her.  Hannah said that right then and there, she decided to end it.  

[saber5055]

5 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

https://people.com/tv/peter-weber-mom-comments-kelley-flanagan-photos/

OMG, Peter gave his mother a rose! My guess it's his Final Rose and he has found his True Luv 4 Evah. Now he just needs that Neil Lane ring to seal the deal.

While it was good fun watching this final rose dog pile, I am resentful, VERY resentful, that it turned into The Barbara Show, and she is all gloaty about it today. Like she's some big star now or something.

I'm waiting to hear she's got her own reality show now. That's what she was going for the whole time with the OTT everything and fake crying/no tears.