S08.E05: The Bells

[MissLucas]

1 minute ago, Pestilentia said:

So that incinerated corpse that Arya saw at the end there was the mom and child she tried to lead to safety? And that hand poking up that looked like the pommel of a charred Longclaw was just a hand and not a charred Longclaw? 

RIGHT? 

Am I the only one seeing these things?

Wasn't that the hand of the little girl we saw at the beginning clutching her wooden toy animal? D & D aren't above recycling emotional manipulation - even when it's not needed.

[QuinnM]

3 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

Am I the only one seeing these things?

Whew, I saw that too.  Did you see the small carved animal like the one that Shireen had?  Or maybe I’m the only seeing that?

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, Lemuria said:

And threatening to harm her baby, IIRC

No no, he was just going to cut it out and give custody to the daddy.

Viserys was a gem, only a monster would kill him. 

[UNOSEZ]

25 minutes ago, Jewlmc said:

She also said she didnt want to be queen of the ashes..ect...so please.

And in her test of character between using as much force as necessary to take "her" throne and just laying waste to make sure everyone knew who was in charge ( queen of ashes)  as you say.. You see what won out... Jorah is shaking his head in heaven saying No Khaleesi 

[dizzyd]

Why does everyone think Cersei and Jaime are dead? They had rubble fall around them. So did Arya. I say till I see the bodies, they're alive.  No way the 2nd and 3rd credited actors were ended like that and didn't make it to the last episode. 

[Xantar]

34 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I didn’t see Dany as going mad.  If you saw basically two of your children murdered in front of you, would you be all, “okay, it’s all good?”

But I ask again, how would you have changed the episode?

I would have written the episode so that burning the city to the ground made tactical sense. Dany destroyed the Iron Fleet, disabled all the scorpions, and then was left sitting there facing a surrendering army. Fine, if she has no mercy she can go ahead and torch the enemy soldiers. But then why take aim at the civilians? In fact, why not just fly directly at the Red Keep, burn it all down, and be done with it?

It all could have been written to make so much more sense if the innocent humans shields had been actually used as human shields instead of just being scattered around in tactically useless locations. 

[Chaos Theory]

I think the conversation Dany had with Jon was very important.  Jon was loved. People were even angling to get Jon on the iron throne.   Dany knew her greatest asset was fear.   When Jon couldn’t or wouldn’t love her the way she wanted him to love her she said “fear then” and I think that was when she decided.

i don’t think she is the mad queen.  I think she made a deliberate choice.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[enoughcats]

Even now, the bean counters are getting in their boats and heading to Kings Landing for an accounting of what's owed in burnt personnel, destroyed equipment and the loan rate has just tripled.  

Tyrion, having been a Hand in a functioning society, would be going into hiding, so as not to be accountable because a whole lot of gold is owed.  

The bean counters could be a spin off, if only a truly cynical bean counter could write non-mathematical fiction.,

[BooBear]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

Forget about the prequels, we need an entire series dedicated to Jon searching for his lost balls. 

Oh he will find them next week when he kills Dany... can't you see it.. he will then bring the dawn against this new threat of Dany. If only Dany had used those skills on the night king.

[terrymct]

2 minutes ago, Paws said:

It looked like longclaw to me too but that had to be the mom and kid, right?

It was the mom and kid.  The kid had been carrying around a toy horse.  That’s the shape you saw.  

[kieyra]

Just now, dizzyd said:

Why does everyone think Cersei and Jaime are dead? They had rubble fall around them. So did Arya. I say till I see the bodies, they're alive.  No way the 2nd and 3rd credited actors were ended like that and didn't make it to the last episode. 

Nope, disagree. Not with their “nothing matters but us” ending.

[Leroux]

39 minutes ago, dbell1 said:

Did Martin really plan the ending like this? Because seriously fuck him. I rescheduled my vacation so I'd be able to watch the finale. That's a bloody mistake.

And bye Qyuburn, killed by your creation, how original.

He has given interviews saying that while Westeros was fighting their petty wars for the throne while the two major threats: White Walkers and Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons were getting ready to attack Westeros. He has given this interviews years ago so this is no news for him and this is the ending he has always wanted except with the path to get there. 

GRRM created the perfect sympathetic villain, the one who the good looks, the seemly right claim, the one who liberated slaves even if she didn't have a plan to help them or rule them afterward, but none of that makes her less than a villain, one who believes it is her destiny to liberate Westeros from a villain Cersei, all the while she is a villain herself, one with a weapon of mass destruction in the form of a dragon. 

[GodsBeloved]

29 minutes ago, Drogo said:

You couldn't just make out with your hot aunt, Jon Snow? 

Motherfucker...

That's Auntiefucker

[WatchrTina]

26 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Why, why why did Tyrion want to rescue CERSEI, who has had a hit out on him for years?! How stupid is he, trusting her so many times and now trying to save her? Where did his brain go?

She was just  a means to an end.  If he could get Jaime to convince her to surrender the city and flee with Jaime then (Tyrion hoped) they could take the city with minimal death and destruction.  He wasn't trying to save Cersie.  He was trying to save everyone.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

The episode is called The Bells, btw.

[Heathrowe]

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

So that incinerated corpse that Arya saw at the end there was the mom and child she tried to lead to safety? And that hand poking up that looked like the pommel of a charred Longclaw was just a hand and not a charred Longclaw? 

RIGHT? 

Am I the only one seeing these things

I think that hand was holding the little girls horse doll?

[Drogo]

I blame Jaime for not killing Bran in the first episode. 

Maybe if he'd used both hands (while he still had 2) we wouldn't have the 3ER giving bastards free AncestryDNA kits.

[RedHawk]

22 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I liked it too. Nice symmetry. Their love started the war. It is fitting they should die at the end in each other's arms. 

Jaime and Cersei. GOT's great romance. 

I also hoped for them to die in each other’s arms. What I wanted to see was Jaime holding on as he pushed her/them out of the tower. A fitting echo of pushing Bran out of the window as well as Tommen’s suicide. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by RedHawk

[BooBear]

1 minute ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

The episode is called The Bells, btw.

Can't wait for the memes.

[lmsweb]

Going to post this before I read too many of the other posts in this thread....but, I didn't hate this episode. I did feel there was some disjointed jumping around, but I don't get why everyone is saying they did a 180 on Dany. The anvils have been dropping for YEARS about how mad the Targs were, and we've seen her go kind of bat shitty already in earlier seasons. As soon as Jon rejected her Auntie love, she was done. She knows she'll never have the 7 Kingdoms out of love - even if she had honoured the surrender. So she went the fear route. And there was no messing around tonight either, Drogon must have gotten a +50 speed buff at some point in the last week.

I choked up over Arya and the Hound. That was the highlight of the episode for me.

Jamie and Cersei - sigh. Not the ending I wanted for them, but kudos to the actors, especially Lena, for knocking that last scene out of the park.

All that remains to be seen is if both Jon and Dany die in the final episode. My money is on both. I think the writers are doing the best they can to tie up everything in a shortened season and give all the fans closure on their various favourite characters.  Will this episode stand out as one of my favourites? Probably not (although, not gonna lie, watching Drogon BURN IT ALL was fun).

Added: the one person I DID feel had some character assassination going on was Grey Worm. Yes, he loved Missandei. Yes, he's loyal to his Queen. But his random berserker behaviour just seemed a little over the top to me. Barriston Selmy would be rolling in his grave.

[Sakura12]

Dany who freed slaves, stopped the Dothraki from raping women all the time, killed the masters that killed slave children, locked her dragons up when they accidentally killed a kid, told Yara to stop the Iron born from raping women. That woman suddenly decides to burn women and children alive. I know anti Dany people are going to always see the worst. The Dany is saw for 8 seasons would never have done that, unless the writers made her stupid and insane just because. 

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

That's Auntiefucker

Not anymore... that's why she's in such a bad mood. All backed up. 

[AmeliaBedelia]

I think episode 3 will end up being my favorite out of this weak final season. That had cool effects and everyone united to defeat the NK. Now, I feel like boxes are just being checked as we race towards the end. I hate that Cersei had such an anticlimactic ending. I hate the repetitive dialogue (Jon called Dany his queen...take a shot). I love the comment on Twitter that said How I Met Your Mother is so grateful it's not going to have the worst finale anymore. Too true.

[Affogato]

2 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think the conversation Dany had with Jon was very important.  Jon was loved. People were even angling to get Jpn on the iron throne.   Dany jnew her greatest asset was fear.   When Jon couldn’t or wouldn’t love her the way she wanted him to love her she said “fear then” and I think that was when she decided.

i don’t think she is the mad queen.  I think she made a deliberate choice,

There was a line from the lost in space movie. Dr smith. ‘Make no mistake. Evil is not a character flaw. Evil is a philosophical choice. ‘

But um evil  

[GodsBeloved]

9 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

This and Arya’s last moments with  Clegane really got me. When he wrapped his hand around the back of her neck, it was done with as much affection that a man like him could show. Arya looked like an innocent little girl, her face as she looked up to him was amazing. This will go down as one of my all time favorite scenes. You went out like a hero Sandor. You got your vengeance and saved the world from that monster. You were truly a magnificent bastard of the highest caliber. 

When she called him Sandor I was done

Edited May 13, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Just now, lmsweb said:

Jamie and Cersei - sigh. Not the ending I wanted for them, but kudos to the actors, especially Lena, for knocking that last scene out of the park.

I guess you could say..... she brought the house down. 

[raven]

If you don't want to be locked out of discussing this show here for the next week, DO NOT mention the books in this topic.

It is OK to say "it is GRRM's vision/story".  It is NOT okay to say "it's the same/different as in the books". 

You all know the drill by now.  Be mindful of where/what you are posting.

[Kanner]

36 minutes ago, Leroux said:

Probably not, Jon loves his Queen and didn't blink an eye when Varys was burned to a crisp.

I hope he knows that the next one in front of Drogon is going to be Sansa. 

He probably won't care, as long as Daenerys gets to sit on her throne we all should be happy. 

Jon understands executing traitors and he knew firsthand that Varys was one. However, he most definitely gave her an unsettled look after Varys’ execution. 

And unlike the Unsullied who followed their Queen, Jon tried to stop his men from engaging. 

So I do think he is not onboard as he used to be. And if Dany really threatened his family that would definitely be it.

I think most of his actions toward Dany have been because of guilt more than anything else. Not that that is a good reason to do anything. He does/did love her but to me he bent the knee because he got everything he wanted and she got nothing plus she lost a child. He feels guilty about his claim so he is holding fast to his backing of her. No more. 

But with these writers, who knows. 

[mxc90]

I thought Tyrion would be standing next to Varys on the BBQ line!

Happy Mother's Day Cersei!

[Leroux]

45 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Dany's going to want Sansa executed, isn't she?  She (correctly) thinks Jon and Tyrion are idiots who were played by her so she can excuse that but there's no way she can let Sansa off the hook if she truly believes this was her plot to have Jon usurp her.

I bet Jon wishes Arya had waited a few seconds longer and let Viserion bake him before she killed the NK. 

Sansa is the only one who saw who Daenerys really was and had the cojones not to bend the knee (figuratively)

That is why she irritated Daenerys so much, her fake flattery went nowhere with Sansa. Sansa was able to see that Danerys was just an improved version of Cersei but a tyrant nonetheless. 

Sansa was right, no one, no kingdom will ever be able to have any kind of freedom or remain with any kind of dignity for as long as Daenerys sits on the throne. Like she told Jon,

"Fear it is" 

Sansa death is coming but I am glad that at least someone stood up to her. At least Sansa can say that she will die with her dignity intact. 

[SourK]

The pacing of this season is off and we all know it, but I'm mostly okay with this episode. Things I liked:

-- in principle, I like the idea that we're watching the "good" characters "win" but it feels completely terrible, and what they're doing is horrifying. I think that's an interesting way for the show to go and it's something we haven't necessarily seen before in this exact way.

-- I get Jaime's story arc now and I'm okay with it. I was confused literally until his final scenes, but the actor made me understand what's happening. He chose defending the north over not defending the north when it made no difference to Cersei's safety, because it was the right thing to do. But he also chose Cersei over not-Cersei when it DID make a difference to Cersei's safety, because he loves her most of anyone. That motivation makes sense to me, and the fact that someone's love for an individual person -- even a very flawed person -- could eclipse everything else and come first in their list of priorities without them being thoroughly evil feels realistic and complicated to me. It wasn't the ending we would have wanted for him, but I found it satisfying.

-- it looked really cool to see the city fall down.

36 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

But I ask again, how would you have changed the episode?

I'm all right with the episode, but I would have changed one thing. I would have tried harder to crawl inside Cersei's mind and the ugly, helpless, terrifying feeling you would have realizing that you lost the war and that your enemies are about to rip you from your safety and kill you, probably in a horrible way. It's a theme that they've kind of explored before, but, this time it's a major character who's actually going to die, so it would been neat to explore it here and it would have made her final scenes connect more.

My bigger thing is that I would have extended the overall arc of this season so that we had more time to understand everyone's motivation, especially Dany's. I feel like everything's being drawn very broadly, and I can kind of guess why Dany might have done what she just did but, for me, it's just a guess. I don't feel like I KNOW what she's about right now in the same way I did when the show moved more slowly.

26 minutes ago, Jewlmc said:

She also said she didnt want to be queen of the ashes..ect...so please.

The way I remember it, she always leaned toward obliterating King's Landing, and Tyrion kept kind of chiding her that she needed to leave the citizens alive. She would agree with him, because that was clearly the "right" answer, but I don't think she passionately felt like she DIDN'T want to torch everyone.

[watchTV]

28 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Did anyone even bother to explain to Dany beforehand that the bells being rung meant surrender?!  Tyrion seemed to mention it to everyone else except her.

He told her that when she was sitting on her throne at Dragonstone. She looked at Tyrion and then nodded towards Grey Worm. I thought she considered it but the writers wanted her to go batshit crazy. I just didn't buy it. It was uncharacteristic of her. Burn children? Come on. The fight was with Cersei; not the people. She was putting her own Army in danger. This episode was just idiotic.

[Scaeva]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany who freed slaves, stopped the Dothraki from raping women all the time, killed the masters that killed slave children, locked her dragons up when they accidentally killed a kid, told Yara to stop the Iron born from raping women. That woman suddenly decides to burn women and children alive. I know anti Dany people are going to always see the worst. The Dany is saw for 8 seasons would never have done that, unless the writers made her stupid and insane just because. 

While I don't think Dany's breaking bad was handled well by the TV writers, it wasn't completely out of left field. Sudden yes, but not completely without warning. Her instincts have always tended a bit toward ruthlessness, it's just that other people were usually able to talk her down.

Now Jorah, Missandei and Varys are dead, and she's no longer listening to Tyrion.

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, Leroux said:

Sansa is the only one who saw who Daenerys really was and had the cojones not to bend the knee (figuratively)

That's not who Daenerys was before this episode. 

[MadameKillerB]

why was Varys removing his rings? I know he knew he was going down but what was up with the rings?

[jay741982]

59 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I liked it, I think.  What was the last word last week?  Dracarus.  Yep, that happened.

Dani basically saw two of her children killed right in front of her.  Fuck everything.

And her Best friend, and a Man who loved her just to see her trusted advisers and the man she loved turn their backs on her basically. Fuck everything for real!

[MadameKillerB]

also, D and company executed Varys in the dark. That's sum bullshit. She was all, Dracarys, as if she were ordering a sandwich at Subway.

[Growsonwalls]

7 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany who freed slaves, stopped the Dothraki from raping women all the time, killed the masters that killed slave children, locked her dragons up when they accidentally killed a kid, told Yara to stop the Iron born from raping women. That woman suddenly decides to burn women and children alive. I know anti Dany people are going to always see the worst. The Dany is saw for 8 seasons would never have done that, unless the writers made her stupid and insane just because. 

The Dany in this episode never would have gotten the loyalty she earned from Missandei, GreyWorm, the Unsullied, the Dothraki, and Jorah. She earned that loyalty because she showed them her humanity. That's what makes me mad about this episode.

[Solace247]

1 hour ago, Popples said:

After this, I'm not sure I'll watch that documentary.

Can we really expect to get any truthful insight or honesty? Marketing is king.

[shireenbamfatheon]

9 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany who freed slaves, stopped the Dothraki from raping women all the time, killed the masters that killed slave children, locked her dragons up when they accidentally killed a kid, told Yara to stop the Iron born from raping women. That woman suddenly decides to burn women and children alive. I know anti Dany people are going to always see the worst. The Dany is saw for 8 seasons would never have done that, unless the writers made her stupid and insane just because. 

Also Dany who invaded a foreign country where she wasn't wanted because of some Manifest Destiny BS and who constantly needed to be talked down from committing atrocities. Who burned a slave alive for killing her slaver husband and called Drogo a hero as late as season seven. Who always picked the most cruel and inhumane executions when presented with alternatives. Who abandoned Meereen and let Daario "Fuck Meereen and its people" Naharis in charge of it. Whose dragon killed a child and then she later complained that the Targaryens were wrong to not let their dragons roam around King's Landing. Who brags about being the Breaker of Chains but refuses to grant the North its independence because she knows what people want better than they do. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by shireenbamfatheon

[ShellsandCheese]

Sansa is the only one who saw who Daenerys really was and had the cojones not to bend the knee (figuratively)

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

That's not who Daenerys was before this episode. 

Thank you. Sansa didn't see anything. She just didn't like Dany because Dany had two dragons and Sansa is all, I want a free North. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's not retcon and make it seem as though Sansa is so smart she didn't like Dany because she knew that Dany was going to destroy King's Landing. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[UNOSEZ]

18 minutes ago, Jewlmc said:

I think the "barely flinching"  had to do with her brother being an abusive sack of shit. But, whatever.

And cersei has been trying to kill or maim tyrion all his life.. They're still siblings he still tried to get her to safety.. Away from the throne and to keep the ppl safe.. But also cuz he didn't want to kill his sister.. Its a pretty normal reaction the only ppl who've actively tried to.. Or actually killed family members are like stannis Cersei.. Ramsay. Not great company

[kieyra]

1 minute ago, jay741982 said:

And her Best friend, and a Man who loved her just to see her trusted advisers and the man she loved turn their backs on her basically. Fuck everything for real!

Jon didn’t turn his back on her. He told her she was his queen and that he loved her. He didn’t try to talk her out of roasting Varys. He just didn’t want to have sex with his aunt. Not sure this rates the whole Dresden routine on a million innocents.

(Note: I blame the writers for not convincing me that Dany’s hurt feelings justified the nuclear option. I don’t “hate” fictional characters the way some people, for example, hate Sansa.)

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Holy shit, that was so much worse than I even imagined. They literally offered no motivation or explanation for Dany to lose her shit and try to kill everyone. Once the battle starts she’s just a mostly unseen monster flying around causing mayhem. The core heroine of the show, completely character assassinated by these writers. 

The inside the episode spends a lot of time on Dany and why she did this, if it helps.

55 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Pretty much the same way she got past all the NK's generals and a portion of his army in that relatively small Weirwood without anyone noticing her dragging the trampoline she jumped from.

She jumped from the weirwood tree.  😉  I did see several white horses being used by soldiers in the early shots, so there is that.

49 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

For starters I would not have had Jaime crawling back to Cersei. 

HORRIBLE end for Cersei!  This is one place I am positive the eventual books will probably do a better job.

49 minutes ago, Leroux said:

There is no character assassination at all. 

Daenerys has said since her first season that she will get the Iron Throne with Fire and Blood, that she will burn cities to the ground to get what was stolen from her.

This is what Fire and Blood look like, this is what a city burned to the ground means. 

She has never lied, she just did what she said she was going to do. 

True.

47 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I know there’s a certain amount of hubris to being a television fan and saying “I could have written a better episode”.

I could have written a better episode. 

The episode was great, the build up to this episode?  Pretty shoddy.

[duddley]

39 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

This and Arya’s last moments with  Clegane really got me. When he wrapped his hand around the back of her neck, it was done with as much affection that a man like him could show. Arya looked like an innocent little girl, her face as she looked up to him was amazing. This will go down as one of my all time favorite scenes. You went out like a hero Sandor. You got your vengeance and saved the world from that monster. You were truly a magnificent bastard of the highest caliber. 

When she called him Sandor, I lost all hope that he would survive. Theirs was one of the most satisfying love stories of the series. 

[TaylorBruh25]

Uh, so to be clear I’ve just finished binging the show in the last two months. So, if there’s something I’m missing here inform me, but, how did... anyone think this was going to end differently? 

While Dany was always very much humane, power corrupts. She stood by back in S5 or so when they were doing Gladiator, she’s killed people BECAUSE they wouldn’t kneel, not lock em up, killed them. Then when this season started and she was very much concerned with Jon’s name to the point she keeps talking as if she’s ready to kill Sansa? Nobody thought this was happening? NOBODY? Like, I understand not wanting your favorite character to go down this road but come on they’ve been foreshadowing it for quite some time. 

   I’m not going to defend how they killed Cersei or how they’ve protected the character the whole series pretty much, but them destroying the whole place like that was pretty much where I seen this season going. I’m curious to hear how everyone else thought it should’ve ended though? 

[Brn2bwild]

8 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany who freed slaves, stopped the Dothraki from raping women all the time, killed the masters that killed slave children, locked her dragons up when they accidentally killed a kid, told Yara to stop the Iron born from raping women. That woman suddenly decides to burn women and children alive. I know anti Dany people are going to always see the worst. The Dany is saw for 8 seasons would never have done that, unless the writers made her stupid and insane just because. 

Seriously.  The writers want us to think she was only ever hated in Westeros, when she was hated in Meereen!  She lost a trusted adviser (Selmy) to the stealth resistance group, was nearly assassinated more than once herself, and was deeply unpopular with the newly freed slaves after she tried to administer justice fairly.  Yet somehow, despite having three dragons, instead of going nuts on the population and burning everything, she... opened the fighting pits at others' behest and only escaped on Drogon after it was clear she would otherwise be killed.  

[Lucelu]

45 minutes ago, Drogo said:

You couldn't just make out with your hot aunt, Jon Snow? 

Motherfucker...

Well, considering she probably still smelled like grilled Varys...

[jay741982]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Holy shit, that was so much worse than I even imagined. They literally offered no motivation or explanation for Dany to lose her shit and try to kill everyone. Once the battle starts she’s just a mostly unseen monster flying around causing mayhem. The core heroine of the show, completely character assassinated by these writers. 

Yep and the biggest POS C U NEXT Tuesday gets a Bullshit Death where I felt insulted like the Writers were telling me that I should have some sympathy for her FUCK THAT. She brought it all on herself 

[Umbelina]

I loved Jon's reaction when the soldiers started killing unarmed men WHO HAD SURRENDERED!  He looked sickened and in shock.

I also loved him saving that woman from rape by killing his own soldier.