S08.E05: The Bells

[kelslamu]

It would have been cool if Arya wore the mask of the woman who told child Cersei her future.  It would have freaked her out and then Arya say, "I said you would only have three children!" and stabbed her to death.   A little dark?  I still think it better than the bs  death of her and Jaime.  

I was so not impressed with any of this.  The death of Euron was okay.  I was more upset at Jaime possible dying by his hand than I was when the roof came down on him and Cersei.  

I find I'm making fun of this show as I watch it now and that's just sad.   

[VCRTracking]

[Daisy]

2 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Thank you. Sansa didn't see anything. She just didn't like Dany because Dany had two dragons and Sansa is all, I want a free North. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's not retcon and make it seem as though Sansa is so smart she didn't like Dany because she knew that Dany was going to destroy King's Landing. 

Or - Dany's the daughter of the man who killed her grandfather and uncle for fun? so kind of leery of Targs and the person who took away the northern independence?

[VCRTracking]

28 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

LOL, who can forget this from Emilia Clarke, signaling where her character was going to go:

The thing is though I think if D&D told her early on where the character was ultimately heading she would have played everything differently. Not just Dany had to believe she was going to be the savior but Emilia had to believe it.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, RealReality said:

One of her dumbest moves was to let cersei see she only had two dragons.  

She was clearly overcompensating after losing Viserion, trying to show she still had power. Cersei nailed her on it.

I hated Jaime and Cersei's death scene, but damn if Lena Headey isn't amazing. She's the only thing that kept me from rolling my eyes in their scenes.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Minneapple

[RealReality]

49 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I guess Dany didn't get the memo that she only needed to torch the Red Keep and would have taken over a perfectly intact city with a huge tax paying population.  Now she gets to rule over....rubble.

Exactly, even if Dany hated everyone in that city, roasting them alive illogical and dumb.

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Some "random?"  That was the Hound, probably in my top five characters.  He knows what living only for revenge is, he loved Arya, and he didn't want that for her.  She respects very few people, but she respects him, and knows he knows what he's talking about.

Aside from that, her "list" has been completed now, not all by her, but it's done.

Could she rise up for one last one, maybe Dany?  Maybe, but to me she looked like the old Arya, a kid, kind, scared, as if she found her true self again.

I'm hoping that means she looks for more in life now than just revenge.

And so what of what sandor wanted for Arya.. how many times has she given him the giant middle finger?  Oh yeah, that's right ALL THE TIME.  Except this one time when he talks her out if her life's mission.... ridiculous.

She respects him?  When and where did that happen?  When she left him to die? When she constantly walked away from him?  Where did this magic respect come from?

LOL, her list is done?  She has no idea cersei is dead and cersei was at the very top of her list...huh?

Changing her entire life mission because of a few words from a guy she doesn't like and from what I could see didn't particularly respect made zero sense and was ridiculous.

If Arya had some major epiphany in a few seconds of talking to sandor than her character is not the one that has been fashioned over eight seasons, and there really isn't any use for her on the show if she is on some forgiveness of her enemies tour.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Exactly, even if Dany hated everyone in that city, roasting them alive illogical and dumb.

And so what of what sandor wanted for Arya.. how many times has she given him the giant middle finger?  Oh yeah, that's right ALL THE TIME.  Except this one time when he talks her out if her life's mission.... ridiculous.

She respects him?  When and where did that happen?  When she left him to die? When she constantly walked away from him?  Where did this magic respect come from?

LOL, her list is done?  She has no idea cersei is dead and cersei was at the very top of her list...huh?

Changing her entire life mission because of a few words from a guy she doesn't like and from what I could see didn't particularly respect made zero sense and was ridiculous.

If Arya had some major epiphany in a few seconds of talking to sandor than her character is not the one that has been fashioned over eight seasons, and there really isn't any use for her on the show if she is on some forgiveness of her enemies tour.

Well, she did.

She's been getting along with the Hound for quite a while now, and she sees him more clearly since her little trip to learn to be No One.

They were buddies the last few episodes, and she saw him now for who he really was.

His words were not only heartfelt, but also earned.

Look at her face, she's season one Ayra before all the hell began.  It was a beautiful scene, and a wonderful last gift from the Hound, who looked out for both sisters all along.  It took a lot for Arya to see that, but she has been aware of it since the got back together.

[RealReality]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

She was clearly overcompensating after losing Viserion, trying to show she still had power. Cersei nailed her on it.

I hated Jaime and Cersei's death scene, but damn if Lena Headey isn't amazing. She's the only thing that kept me from rolling my eyes in their scenesm

Well, risk/reward.  You want the reward of the iron throne bad enough to risk the lives of your "children" for it, you get what you get.

And yeah, she didn't HAVE to bring both dragons....she was just showing off.  Bad move.

Yeah, I wanted cersei to get a more spectacular death.  But Lena Hadley sold me on the fear, the terror, the feeling of loss that I wanted cersei to feel and for that I'm somewhat mollified.

[Glade]

D&D certainly violated the 'show don't tell' route here; if no one had talked about Dany going mad but we the audience saw in private moments that she secretly was, if it was actually developed rather then openly speculated about, then maybe this would have made sense.  Or if Dany had delivered a monologue about losing her dragons, Missandei, etc.  I also would have preferred if Drogon showed up in newly-built impenetrable armor such that the ballista's just ricocheted off him, as opposed to forcing us to believe that Dany just luckily dodged every single one of them…and really there were no hidden backup scorpions?  Not even ones to aim from the red keep?  Why is the writing so stupid?

I don't really buy that Dany would decide to destroy civilian houses and her own future castle for no reason.  Maybe if we could have seen through her eyes, like she was having visions of Ceirsei or ice dragons atop every building?  Ceirsie atop zombie Rheagal?  Something?  And Grey Worm's forces just start slaughtering women out of nowhere, without even receiving orders from Dany (she could have shouted 'kill them all' as she flew by or something.)

So I guess it's a toss up whether Arya is riding out of the city or plans on killing Dany herself; maybe she will actually use her face-swapping ability again before the end of the show?  By the way, did Gendry travel to Kings Landing? This is the second episode this season that we've followed a) Arya running around and b) endless cgi dragon spectacle, and it's not good.  

[RealReality]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, she did.

She's been getting along with the Hound for quite a while now, and she sees him more clearly since her little trip to learn to be No One.

They were buddies the last few episodes, and she saw him now for who he really was.

His words were not only heartfelt, but also earned.

Look at her face, she's season one Ayra before all the hell began.  It was a beautiful scene, and a wonderful last gift from the Hound, who looked out for both sisters all along.  It took a lot for Arya to see that, but she has been aware of it since the got back together.

They were buddies?  She sat with him for like 5 minutes before the battle with the dead and basically took off instead of spend more time with him.  In what universe does that make them good friends?  She willingly spend more time eating dead rabbit with cersei's soliders.

When did she "see him for who he truly was" before a minute long conversation that somehow nonsensically convinced her to give up her life's mission? 

I think you spin a lovely tale, but what is any of that based on besides a facial expression during a conversation that made no sense?  Not in terms of the hound giving it, he cares for Arya, that much is clear.  But it makes no sense for Arya to have been moved by such a speech, because she hasn't given any indication that she particularly gives two craps what anyone thinks of her mission, much less sandor.

Arya stark who happily killed a room full of men who carried out the red wedding wouldn't kill cersei because the hound said a few words and she had enough regard for him to spend five minutes drinking wine with him before she battled the undead?  No, that makes no sense.

And if Arya is all love, light and forgiveness now, she is useless and may as well become lady gendry.

Edited May 13, 2019 by RealReality

[millennium]

Do you think that when the Night King raised the dead at Winterfell, Littlefinger was crawling around?  Shanshaaaa ...

I was on the edge of my seat wondering if Septa Unella and Elia Martel would escape the Red Keep.   Maybe we'll find out next week.  Obviously these writers care about every one of their characters so ... (lol, sorry, I can't keep a straight face).

The only thing I kinda liked about this episode was Danaerys's new Mad Queen battle outfit.  Insanity is the new black.

The writers disposed of Danaerys the same way they did the Night King, without a shred of regard for everything the character had become in 7 seasons.   Who cares what happens to her now?   

I knew Season 8 couldn't live up to our expectations.   

But I never expected it would suck so bad.  

Varys's death was a such a so-what.   I don't think even Varys cared that much.  Meanwhile, Danaerys is like "Yeah, Dracarys, whatever."

Euron Greyjoy should have died by dragonfire.  Or at Yara's hands.

Greyworm should be executed for killing prisoners of war.   Probably won't be, but should be.  

I think we were supposed to be horrified by the destruction of King's Landing (it may still be going on as we speak), but between you and me I had more of an emotional reaction when they blew up all the buildings of Walnut Grove in the finale of Little House on the Prairie.

The death of Cersei Lannister may go down as one of the greatest wasted dramatic opportunities in the history of television.

My money says Tyrion sits on the Iron Throne at the end, with Jon Snow retiring to the North to live with Ghost and the Wildlings.   Not that any of it matters at this point.   The characters' destinies, the realm's destiny, all meaningless now.

[Superpole2000]

1 hour ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I try not to overthink this show too much but one thing is bothering me. Drogon put on a masterclass performance and thus illustrated a huge problem with the show; dragons are only as effective as the plot demands. Last week, Rhaegal was unceremoniously shot down and this week Drogon manages to take out the entire Iron Fleet, all of the scorpions, the gates to King’s Landing, and he destroyed most of the city. 

Yet two weeks ago, we had two dragons who could hardly make a dent against the AOTD. It makes no sense. None. 

This is the main problem I had with this season. If the dragons could do this then why not do this a long time ago? They could have targeted Cersei whenever they wanted since she's always standing on her balcony anyway.

And Arya...I despise how invincible they've made her. The writers love her so much that I thought they would invent guns in the show just so she could dodge bullets on top of all the other miracle survivals she's had.

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Its an element of Jungian psychology that manifests itself often in fiction because Jungian archetypes are ideal fodder for creating interpersonal conflicts.

To really understand it, you have to start from the ideal archetype of this kind... the King (or True King to make it easier to distinguish). Other really common archetypes are the Lover (best represented in the show by Sansa), the Magician (best represented by Bran) and the Warrior (Arya... notice the trend?) and those other three are also wrapped up how the True King becomes actualized in basically the ways Sansa, Bran and Arya have interacted with Jon... which is why it was so easy to predict he'd end up the king while Dany would fail for want of those interactions.

Anyway, each of the Archetypes is based on a balance... The King provides order and stability to those under him and encourages their growth (the terms Ordered and Generative are often used as shorthand).

And when that archetype falls out of balance it is said to become a Shadow Archetype... a Shadow King in this case.  Generally each archtype can swing out of balance in two directions based on a particular weakness the archetype is vulnerable to.

In the King's case, that weakness is their self-confidence, their belief in themselves. The Shadow King is insecure in their power and so veers in one of two directions; the Impotent King surrenders that power to others (Jon) and the Tyrant masks that insecurity with grand displays of power and titles to make sure everyone knows they're in charge (Dany).

Generally speaking, when employing these archetypes and their shadows in fiction the story will present a protagonist who falls short of the balance in one way or the other (but typically the more passive option of the two for any archetype) and then set them up with an antagonist who is the OPPOSITE type to cause them to grow into the properly balanced archetype in the course of the story.

I've been predicting Dany going Tyrant for a while now specifically because;

A) Jon was the more passive of the imperfect king types.

B) the True King is typically realized by interactions with The Lover (provides the initial motivation and passion to act. Jon was ready to run away until Sansa turned up and convinced him to fight for the North), The Magician (who provides key, often hidden, knowledge to help the King fully know himself... Jon's true heritage in this case) and the Warrior (who reminds the king of his duty to his people and, often, to his family... Arya). Dany lacked interactions with similar figures.

C) This show has further always run on reverses. Jon starting on the outs with the Starks and surrendering his power means by the end he'll have come around to appreciating the Starks and reclaiming his power. Likewise, Happy Jon and Dany (and Dany feeling all superior basking in the awe and a bit of terror she instilled) at the start meant it was 100% going to be the two as enemies by the end and Dany recognized as queen at the start means she'd be overthrown by the end.

That's a brief overview, but hopefully it helped.

Thanks for taking the time to post all that.    I enjoyed reading it.

[MJ Frog]

8 minutes ago, Glade said:

I don't really buy that Dany would decide to destroy civilian houses and her own future castle for no reason. 

I am glad she destroyed the Red Keep and was really hoping she would, for two reasons:

1) It is freaking ugly and depressing.

2) It has been a symbol of oppression for a long time now, one built by her own family, no less. You know, the family that swept in and conquered (stole) all Seven Kingdoms with blood and fire.

Of course, I would have been quite happy if she had stopped with the Red Keep, but that's another discussion.

[Jeebus Cripes]

Well, that was some next level disappointment the likes of which I've never experienced. And to put it in perspective, I sat through the end of Battlestar Galactica, Angel, and Dexter. Holy hell, what an accomplishment on how to shit the bed and destroy a series!

Maybe this whole crap episode was a horrible vision Bran is having. I mean, the writing really couldn't get any worse at this point, so why the fuck not?

Gonna go burn those unread Song of Ice and Fire novels now... Dracarys and whatnot. 

[VCRTracking]

[RealReality]

However, as much as I complain, I can't wait to see how it all ends.  And, even at it's worst, this is one of the best shows on TV and I'll be sorry to lose it.

[Coxfires]

4 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Tyrion did in a very exaggerated way, I knew at that moment, she was going to totally disregard the bells and reign down fire and blood. The best part of the episode was Drogon coming out of the shadows to dispatch of Varys. 

Also, Jon's a pussy. I've never seen a show ruin all of their main characters in such a short period of time: Jaime, Tyrion, Dany, Jon; and don't get me started on the secondary characters such as Grey Worm, Varys, et al Unbelievable. 

You know, I didn't mind that the NK was defeated in ep3 because the human aspect of the show was more interesting To me but what you say here is so true: the characters personalities, inner motives, interactions, they were trashed. So  where I could forgive the show with the NK storyline, it sucks that they also missed the human side too.

I used to like GoT because every character was well rounded and each POV could be understood but this season crapped on everything, and as you point out so well, for major AND minor characters. The list is too long for me to describe all the characters I couldn't recognize this year compared to earlier seasons. How to ruin your show indeed.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Coxfires

[lvbalgurl]

I was thinking back to when Daenerys was in Qarth and said that "when her dragons were full grown, she'd take back what was stolen from her and destroy those who had wronged her".  That she'd "lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground".

At the time, I cheered her on.  I thought that she was basically talking shit.  Yes, she'd kill her enemies.  But, there's no way she'd kill innocents.  But, when faced with the prospect of burning a city to the ground - including innocents and soldiers who had surrendered, she did, in grief and anger, what she said she would do.

I don't think she's evil or necessarily mad.  I think she feels she was driven to cross a line she was willing to cross - if she was angered/grieving/betrayed/etc. enough to do so. 

It's the difference between she and Jon, or someone like Ned.  There are lines they simply would not cross, no matter what.

Looking at this from 20th century eyes, it's fucked up.  But, in medieval times, this was common place in times of war.  Additionally, to be absolutely fair to Daenerys, it is Cersei who put these people's lives at risk in the first place, by betraying her pact with the North last season, killing Missandei in front of her, and being so filled with delusion, hubris, and psychopathy, that she felt she would win no matter what.  With zero concern for the lives she was risking.

I'm kind of left in a place where I can't really condemn Dany for being who she always was.  The Mad King's daughter.  But, is she the right person to rule the Seven Kingdoms?  What kind of ruler do these people actually want?  Someone capable of this kind of carnage who wants the IT so desperately?  Someone incapable of crossing the kind of lines Dany crossed tonight who doesn't want to rule?  Someone else?  IS there anyone else who should rule?

I do think all of this could have been written and crafted better.  But, I can't say it's completely out of left field.

Edited May 13, 2019 by lvbalgurl
grammar

[VCRTracking]

3 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

Looking at this from 20th century eyes, it's fucked up.  But, in medieval times, this was common place in times of war.  Additionally, to be absolutely fair to Daenerys, it is Cersei who put these people's lives at risk in the first place, by betraying her pact with the North last season, killing Missandei in front of her, and being so filled with delusion, hubris, and psychopathy, that she felt she would win no matter what.  With zero concern for the lives she was risking.

Honestly the death of civilians from above reminded me more of 20th century war. The Blitz of London, the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo, the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the bombing of North Vietnam and Cambodia, up until the drones in the Middle East.

[millennium]

31 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Well, that was some next level disappointment the likes of which I've never experienced. And to put it in perspective, I sat through the end of Battlestar Galactica, Angel, and Dexter.

I'll see those three series and raise you a Lost.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Y'know I admit to thinking all those times "Well, once she reaches Westeros and gets the Iron Throne she'll be satisfied and chill!

How many innocent children did she burn in all in incidents on that list?

[Sentient Meat]

1 minute ago, millennium said:

I'll see those three series and raise you a Lost.

I didn't see Angel but Dexter and Lost were bad a long time before the last few episodes.

Maybe it's most like Battlestar if the last episode is terrible.

[Law Mom]

I kind of like that Cersei died a lame death instead of the epic takedown most of us predicted. It’s the ultimate insult, to basically be ignored. I was really hoping that when Jaime showed up, it was actually Arya with his face, but in retrospect that would be fanservice and lazy writing. This was much more daring, to have Jaime admit that he is “hateful” by nature, like the scorpion who stings the turtle, redemption be damned.

As for the mad queen, I feel like it is a failure of our education system that people didn’t see it coming. English Lit 101! It was projected from the very first episode. Was Dany ever righteous? Arguably not. The narcissist can do what looks like good deeds, but the motivation is not caring but admiration. Narcissists require supply. Dany freed slaves to gain a group of people who owed her and called her Mother, and then she gave herself the title Breaker of Chains. She took over the Unsullied and offered them a chance to leave, but how realistic is that. These men had no other life. So they followed her. She didn’t give a rat’s ass about them individually. She constantly referred to them as “her” army as if she owned them. She wore a mask of virtue but it was never real because she has no empathy.

My most emotional moment was the Hound taking out the Mountain. Cried I did.

Also, Tyrion telling Jaime he was the only reason he survived his childhood was heartbreaking.

[RealReality]

4 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

I was thinking back to when Daenerys was in Qarth and said that "when her dragons were full grown, she'd take back what was stolen from her and destroy those who had wronged her".  That she'd "lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground".

At the time, I cheered her on.  I thought that she was basically talking shit.  Yes, she'd kill her enemies.  But, there's no way she'd kill innocents.  But, when faced with the prospect of burning a city to the ground - including innocents and soldiers who had surrendered, she did, in grief and anger, what she said she would do.

I don't think she's evil or necessarily mad.  I think she feels she was driven to cross a line she was willing to cross - if she was angered/grieving/betrayed/etc. enough to do so. 

It's the difference between she and Jon, or someone like Ned.  There are lines they simply would not cross, no matter what.

Looking at this from 20th century eyes, it's fucked up.  But, in medieval times, this was common place in times of war.  Additionally, to be absolutely fair to Daenerys, it is Cersei who put these people's lives at risk in the first place, by betraying her pact with the North last season, killing Missandei in front of her, and being so filled with delusion, hubris, and psychopathy, that she felt she would win no matter what.  With zero concern for the lives she was risking.

I'm kind of left in a place where I can't really condemn Dany for being who she always was.  The Mad King's daughter.  But, is she the right person to rule the Seven Kingdoms?  What kind of ruler do these people actually want?  Someone capable of this kind of carnage who wants the IT so desperately?  Someone incapable of crossing the kind of lines Dany crossed tonight who doesn't want to rule?  Someone else?  IS there anyone else who should rule?

I do think all of this could have been written and crafted better.  But, I can't say it's completely out of left field.

I don't think it's right or reasonable to blame cersei for danys actions.  I blame cersei for putting her people in harm's way and I blame Dany for going overboard in burning everyone alive.  She is an adult that wants to rule over thousands of people, she can't lay blame for her actions at the feet of everyone else if she wants to be a leader.

Being a leader is more than having 50 titles, 3 dragons, and a bitchin wardrobe.

She also doesn't get a pass because "everyone was doing it" she knows better.  As a woman who was basically enslaved to a man and freed slaves, she knows that "but we always did things this way!" isn't a reasonable excuse.

Burning the city was illogical and mean.  There was zero reason to burn that city after they surrendered.  There was never a reason to Target women and children.  None.  So either she chose to do it, which means she is evil.  Or she is compelled to do it by some unknown force, which makes her mad.

There is no way she is just a super nice, average, normal person driven to roasting frightened women and children alive as they flee for their lives.

[watchTV]

So Euron never figured out the baby wasn't his. I thought it was because he wasn't the brightest. But then it occurred to me that the writers didn't catch it either. Jamie had a chance to crush him by saying it was his child and not Euron's.

He was never going to kill Cersei if he thought she was pregnant. It was just absolutely ridiculous he made it to her after getting stabbed twice. He got to comfort the  person who put a hit on him. That whole scene was unnecessary.

[VCRTracking]

If her becoming the "Mad Queen" is what GRRM really had in store for Dany then his version  will probably be better just because prose gives you more insight to a person's thoughts and motivations than just seeing them onscreen will.

[Lady S.]

So Tywin was murdered by his own son on Father's Day and now Cersei died pregnant on Mother's Day. That fucking family and this fucking show.

Did Arya and Varys take stupid pills in the celebrations after beating the Night King? They both used that tunnel in s1 before Tyrion ever did and could have told Jon, if not Dany to prevent any need for a battle to kill Cersei. Arya didn't even remember on her own mission to get Cersei! (And Tyrion didn't remember until he needed to smuggle Jaime in, but he's clearly been taking stupid pills for a while now.) 

[WaltersHair]

How much fire can one dragon breathe? I've never been one to love dragons and endless fire hasn't really brought me over.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

After Arya left the Hound and was trying to get the fuck out of Dodge, all I could think was A Girl does not die because a building falls on her. A Girl does not die because she got trampled by a panicked crowd.

[ulkis]

40 minutes ago, watchTV said:

So Euron never figured out the baby wasn't his. I thought it was because he wasn't the brightest. But then it occurred to me that the writers didn't catch it either. Jamie had a chance to crush him by saying it was his child and not Euron's.

He was never going to kill Cersei if he thought she was pregnant. It was just absolutely ridiculous he made it to her after getting stabbed twice. He got to comfort the  person who put a hit on him. That whole scene was unnecessary.

That was the problem for me. I felt like the writers didn't necessarily feel that Jaime and Cersei were OTP but more so that they stanned Cersei/Lena Headley so much they wrote as favorably as they could for her without redeeming her.

Edited May 13, 2019 by ulkis

[Minneapple]

[lvbalgurl]

5 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I don't think it's right or reasonable to blame cersei for danys actions.  I blame cersei for putting her people in harm's way and I blame Dany for going overboard in burning everyone alive.  She is an adult that wants to rule over thousands of people, she can't lay blame for her actions at the feet of everyone else if she wants to be a leader.

Being a leader is more than having 50 titles, 3 dragons, and a bitchin wardrobe.

She also doesn't get a pass because "everyone was doing it" she knows better.  As a woman who was basically enslaved to a man and freed slaves, she knows that "but we always did things this way!" isn't a reasonable excuse.

Burning the city was illogical and mean.  There was zero reason to burn that city after they surrendered.  There was never a reason to Target women and children.  None.  So either she chose to do it, which means she is evil.  Or she is compelled to do it by some unknown force, which makes her mad.

There is no way she is just a super nice, average, normal person driven to roasting frightened women and children alive as they flee for their lives.

Oh, I wasn't meaning to say that Cersei is responsible for the actions Dany took - just that she is the reason they were in harm's way in the first place.  Cersei was obviously A Bad Ruler.  She didn't care about the people.  She didn't care about anything except she and Jaime and her children at first, and then herself and maintaining her grip on the IT in the later seasons.  Dany is responsible for how far she took things, absolutely.

After 8 seasons of watching Daenerys, I don't think she's evil.  I think you can go scorched earth and not be evil.  But, is she fucked up right now?  Yessir.

I also have to say - I thought Emilia was brilliant tonight.  I honestly think this is the best acting she's done on the show.  She was so freaking raw in that early Dany/Tyrion scene.  She was amazing.

[Lady S.]

3 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

After Arya left the Hound and was trying to get the fuck out of Dodge, all I could think was A Girl does not die because a building falls on her. A Girl does not die because she got trampled by a panicked crowd.

The Princess Who Was Promised the Best Plot Armor and A Magic Horse. Man, whatever other problems I have with this season, it really has belonged to Arya.

[VCRTracking]

Dany's never been one of my favorite characters but I did like seeing her journey over the past 8 years and I would have much preferred her to get the Iron Throne over Jon. I don't hate her after this, I just feel sad for her.

5 minutes ago, lvbalgurl said:

I also have to say - I thought Emilia was brilliant tonight.  I honestly think this is the best acting she's done on the show.  She was so freaking raw in that early Dany/Tyrion scene.  She was amazing. 

Agreed.

Edited May 13, 2019 by VCRTracking

[lvbalgurl]

28 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Honestly the death of civilians from above reminded me more of 20th century war. The Blitz of London, the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo, the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the bombing of North Vietnam and Cambodia, up until the drones in the Middle East.

Damn.  I can't argue with this at all. 😕

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, mojoween said:

I thought this ep was a hot mess and I'm going to need a page or six more explanation of what the fuck happened with Varys.

The credits say D & D wrote this but I would like some proof.

To quote Veep: "How did they write this thing? Get drunk and tape crayons to their feet?"

[Hoo]

Awesome episode! 

We have been waiting for this since Ned got beheaded, 8 years,  Finally!  And it was best of television ever.

I'm bummed Tyrion and the Starks survived.  I guess, Tyrion had to live to see his deeds.  And the Starks are still alive because with one episode left we are down to the final two houses.

Championship Sunday next week!!  Team Dany!

[Lady S.]

[Jeebus Cripes]

44 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

I didn't see Angel but Dexter and Lost were bad a long time before the last few episodes.

Maybe it's most like Battlestar if the last episode is terrible.

Battlestar went off the rails long before the last episode, as did this show, IMO. This whole season has been pretty bad. It's to my own determent that I can't seem to quit anything that once had promise. I tend to ride the train until it crashes horribly. 

[kelslamu]

I've never really rooted for Dany except against her brother or Cersei.  I could see her killing everyone except civilians or at least trying not to kill the civilians.  I thought she'd annihilate Cersei and her army and then we'd see the true tyrant she could be once she got the throne.  

[lvbalgurl]

30 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Dany's never been one of my favorite characters but I did like seeing her journey over the past 8 years and I would have much preferred her to get the Iron Throne over Jon. I don't hate her after this, I just feel sad for her.

I loved her that first season.  She was really rootable then.  I feel like her journey meandered for a while but I had a renewed interest in her when Tyrion became her hand.  When she told Jon, "I don't have love here," my heart kind of broke for her.  Because it was true.  At this point, I think Grey Worm is her only true ally.

Also, Jon is a douche for telling her he loved her when he so obviously does not anymore.  That's pretty fucked up.

Edited May 13, 2019 by lvbalgurl
Quote issues

[Petunia13]

What Dany did reminds me of WIllow on Buffy after“Seeing Red”. I just think she’s had to much loss and trauma she  had become less of a person. There’s a saying it takes a monster to destroy a monster and maybe Dany needed to become that to end Cersei and her regime. 

[Hoo]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

which must therefore pack SO MUCH into its last few hours - managed to drag so.

They don't need to pack anything into the last episode.  King's Landing is destroyed.  The throne is Dany's.  It's over.  The show can wind down.

Except that the Starks may have different plans. That's the suspense.

[ferjy]

Now that Jamie is out of the picture, I want my happy ending for Tormund. 

[rebel2u]

I totally get why Dany torched KL.  (I think.)  She was always bound and determined to be ruler of the 7 Kingdoms/Iron Throne; hence, her begging (which I don't ever recall seeing her do before, in any situation) Jon to not tell anyone of his heritage and rightful place as ruler.  Jon naively thought that he could say, "Yeah, I'm the rightful heir but I don't want to be so I'm passing the torch (see what I did there?) to Dany" and have everyone just accept it b/c he said so.  (You really DO know nothing, Jon Snow.)  And, as other posters have said, Dany acknowledged that more subjects, so to speak, loved him more than her and she could not compete on that front, so she would have to be more feared, not more loved, to take and hold the throne.  I think she believes Jon betrayed her not because he told her he would tell Sansa and Arya of his rightful claim to the throne and then did so--because how could it be considered a betrayal if he told her in advance what he was going to do?-but because he would not agree in the first place to keep his ancestry a secret.  Splitting hairs, I know, but he essentially said she could be the ruler but then made a decision that she KNEW would keep her from becoming ruler--that was his betrayal.  So, for Dany, it was the thought process of "if I can't take and hold my place as ruler by being most loved, then I'll be most feared--how do you like me now?"  So she destroyed the whole kingdom, as she has destroyed many people and places before in order to hold onto her title of queen; it seems to me that she is less mad and more calculated.  She'll start out as nice but if she has to be cruel to obtain her ultimate goal of ruler of the Iron Throne, then she'll do what she has to do without compunction. 

And watching her torch KL--wow--so cathartic.

[thuganomics85]

Well, that all happened!

Basically, I'm in the camp that I actually would have gone with a lot of these ideas if they had actually spent more time building up to all of it, and everything didn't just feel so damn rushed.  In theory, I like the idea of Dany crossing lines; not because she's "mad"; but the combination of losing everyone that was close to her and were able to reign in her short-temper and basically being dismayed over how the Westeros folks clearly don't care for her like they do Jon and the Starks, and it leading to her committing horrible acts.  But there should have been way more time spent on seeing how the loss of her dragons, Jorah, and Missandei slowly broke her ability to reign in her worst tendencies.  Or how the truth of Jon's parentage coming caused her to lose all faith in him, Tyrion, and Varys.  Or how Varys' attempt at betraying her made her grow colder.  Instead, it feels like she went from zero to "Burn them all!  Children too!" in two seconds.  Hell, maybe if they just had a scene of the citizens celebrating the death of her dragon or Missandei, I could see why Dany would want everyone dead.  Instead, it just feels, well, rushed.

Still, despite the rushed development and weak writing, I really do think Emilia Clarke has been at her best this season.  Even when she isn't speaking, she has been showing so much through her expressions and facial acting.  Again, I know she has her weaknesses, but I really do hope she maintains a good career after this.

Ah, Jaime and Cersei.  Nikolaj Coster-Waldeau and Lena Headey sold the hell out of it and, again, I do like the whole idea that Jaime was simply too enamored to ever fully break away from his sister, but their ending was so... underwhelming.  A waste of both characters.  And I'm really disappointed over how insignificant Cersei was this season, because I think Lena is one of the strongest cast members here and this was her last chance at finally winning an Emmy, but I don't see her getting one here, due to the weak material and lack of screen time.

I usually hate the term "plot armor", but Seven Hells, that was all I could think of over how many time Arya preposterously barely avoided death here.  Maybe she's just immune to stones and getting crushed like how Dany is impervious to fire and getting burned...

"I made mistakes."  Really, Tyrion, that could describe your entire run as the Hand of the Queen.  You really have become such a disappointment.  As much as it pains me, Tywin really was the brains of the Lannister household.  Even if that led to him treating all of his children like shit, which led to his own downfall in the end.

Fare thee well, Varys.  Conleth Hill was always a delight here.  Good-bye as well, Sandor, but at least you went out the way you wanted to.

So, I guess we'll see if Jon is finally going to do something, or is he just going to continue to stand around and look shocked.

I'll obviously be checking the finale out no matter what, but at this point, the only character I really care about is Davos, as he is the only one here who hasn't done something I have found repulsive at one point or another.  But I'm really curious to see how they'll end this, because HBO clearly has invested a lot in this series and the future spin-offs, but these past three episodes have been... polarizing at best.  And I just can't see any way the finale will please everyone, so there will likely be some massive drop-offs for the future of the franchise.  The about face from this being one of the golden childs of television to the bastard child as been almost as quick as Dany's about face into barbecuing territory.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Jon: I'm really not comfortable having sex with you now that I know you're my aunt. It's kind of grossing me out.
Dany: HDU!

I would have been fine with Dany destroying the actual castle where Cersei was just standing at the window, perfectly content to watch her own subjects die. There was a shot where Cersei saw Dany in the distance and I was really hoping that Dany would fly the dragon straight at the tower and yell, "I'm coming for you, bitch!"

But now that Dany has razed the city and its tax-paying inhabitants, where is Dany going to get the money and labor force to rebuild the city? Or is she going to abandon it and rule from Dragonstone? What does she expect the survivors to do? Just live in the rubble and thank her for destroying their homes and killing their families?

For the record, I didn't see what Dany did as evidence that she's mad as in crazy. She's mad as in angry. She wanted revenge. She didn't destroy the city because she lost her ability to recognize right from wrong. She didn't suddenly lose her impulse control. She knew exactly what she was doing. She wanted payback and she had a temper tantrum which just so happened to kill a bunch of innocent people who had nothing to do with what happened to her or her family. It's one thing to expect trained soldiers to fight in your name and possibly die, but she purposely took her frustration out on defenseless women and children who had nowhere to run.

13 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Well, and LEAST we got rid of Urine!

I'm paranoid because I've watched too many shows to believe that he or Cersei are really dead until I see their corpses (and even then, I'll still want someone to chop the bodies into pieces, burn the parts, and bury the ashes in farflung corners of the world - you know, just in case). As much as I hope they're both dead, I can imagine one of them crawling out from the ashes like an annoying cockroach.

I really wish Jaime had taken the extra ten seconds to decapitate Euron just so I'd know he's really most sincerely dead.

Edited May 13, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Drogo said:

Kings Landing was a shithole anyway.

Yeah, I said it. 

Flea Bottom survived????

[ElectricBoogaloo]

After the Hound killed the goldcloaks on the stairway, I was really hoping he would stab Cersei as she came down the stairs (accompanied by "Arya Stark sends her regards").