Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[DragonFaerie]

4 hours ago, Farmfam said:

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this experience! It had me questioning doctors all over thinking everyone should have kiddos that are at least 2.5 years apart if they've had a c-section. 

 

It does make sense if she was told "it would be best to wait 2 years if you want to attempt a VBAC" but if she only had one child and happened to end up with a c-section (no other issues) no doctor should ever be telling a woman how to plan her family. 

I had a distant family member that had twins via c-section with complications on one of the twins.  She got pregnant just a few months later because she didn't realize that her antacids interfered with her birth control pills.  Her OB was like - we'll be scheduling a c-section for you since you'll be giving birth only about 14 months since your last c-section.  She thought it was much to risky that close together to try for a vbac

5 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

I was under the impression that for all his faults, Jim Bob did have insurance for his family.  I would have thought that he would have kept all the kids on until they turned 26, because family plans don't specifiy the number of kids- it's the same price for 1 kid or 19.  At least that is how my husband's plan through his employer works.  Maybe Jim Bob's plan works differently, if he actually has one.  We kept all of our kids on our plan until they aged out. 

I know over a decade ago when I had company insurance, there was a difference for the number of kids you had.  I think it just depends on what insurance you have, and things may have changed as well.  If he is using the LLC as a business and counts all the adults and a lot of the howlers as employees, he may have been able to get a "company policy" for the LLC and all of his employees, esp. the adults could then had coverage.  Who knows though?

[GeeGolly]

I think that while many guidelines are followed by most MDs, OBs included, not all give the same advice and I'm sure many give different advice to different people with similar, but different situations. Like I mentioned in an earlier post my friend recently gave birth and her OB was concerned about the baby's size and was going to recommend a c-section if the baby was thought to be between 9 - 10 pounds. She's not the first expectant mom I know who was told this. Maybe it's a Northern trend or a newer trend, but it happens.

 When I compare stories of my pregnancies with some of my younger colleagues I realize the many differences in prenatal care, deliveries and new baby care.

Edited March 15, 2018 by GeeGolly

[CatS]

With all of their breech babies not being caught during pregnancy, it makes me wonder if they have internal checks at all? Because breech (especially more than one) would be hard for someone with even a hint of obstretrical training (unlikely in this situation I know) to miss? Is there some weird fundie tenant against it? And come to think of it, it would be weird to have my fingers up my sister's hoo ha (not that I have a sister, but if I did...nope). I mean I know Jill and Joy are close but think about Jill giving her pelvic exams even without all the crazy beliefs they have surrounding touching and sex. 

Also the mom can usually tell when the baby is breech just by kicks/hiccups. I (without any OB training, FTR) knew my second daughter was breech up until 32 weeks because her kicks were low and hiccups were high, then one day they flipped and I knew she was head down and vertex, which my OB confirmed several times. I just...can't figure out how they let this happen more than once. 

[beckie]

I've never had kids but seems to me the further between births the better as far as healing from a c-section goes. Maybe that's why people mention at least two years between births?

[SMama]

38 minutes ago, CatS said:

I just...can't figure out how they let this happen more than once. 

Because Jesus. When you have been raised to believe you are superior to all others based on worshiping the right god, that’s when shit like this happens. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by SMama

[sleepysuzy]

I had my first vbac 22 months after my csection,  in a hospital attended by midwives. The usual preference is 18 months between deliveries. I also have large babies, so that is not a reason to wait longer. Some doctors give extra "rules" for vbac that have much more to do with malpractice insurance than evidence based care.

[Loves2Dance]

On 3/13/2018 at 9:08 PM, Marigold said:

Joy could've been discharged quickly. I had a few C-sections and was discharged the minute the doctor said I was fine.  I had the scheduled c-section(s) on a friday and was home on Monday afternoon.  I don't like hospitals and my husband could help me more than having to press the button for the nurse, who was already over busy, and took a while to come.  Trying to breastfed a baby post c-section requires help and sadly, nurses are given too many patients. 

Joy certainly has help at home so she probably left as soon as she was cleared.  Unless there was a medical need, why not? 

Same! I hate, hate, hate hospitals! I threatened to AMA after I started walking, about 6/7 hours post c/s, but they told me they wouldn't release my daughter. We left at hour 24. I could walk, eat, poop, and nurse---the last thing I wanted to deal with was an uncomfortable hospital bed and nurses I didn't have time for. 

[Sew Sumi]

If your state allows them to practice (with whatever exams are required), I would assume they're allowed to do internal exams. 

That said, would you want Dr.  Jill probing around all up in your business? *shudder*

[CatS]

I assume they are if licensed. The more I think about it though the more crazy I think it is that Jill has to give her sisters side hugs yet she/the fam is okay with doing pelvic exams on them. 

[Loves2Dance]

6 minutes ago, CatS said:

I assume they are if licensed. The more I think about it though the more crazy I think it is that Jill has to give her sisters side hugs yet she/the fam is okay with doing pelvic exams on them. 

That could be a reason why Jill doesn't have a clue---what if she doesn't do internal exams? Now, a trained person should be able to feel on the outside and have a clue, but an internal check would give more clarity to a theory. Of course, my OB just ordered an extra ultrasound to confirm but we know they're too cheap to buy one of those. What if Jill only thinks her role is to catch, not check? 

[awaken]

Yes, cpm’s do internal checks if indicated, and palpate externally to assess position. 

They don’t leave you with a mess to clean up after a home birth. If anything the staff leaves it cleaner and more in order than they found it. 

[farmgal4]

11 hours ago, Absolom said:

Anna didn't have a midwife for her first two deliveries.  She had Miss Theresa (Fedowsky) who was a doctor's wife doula.  She did have a state licensed (not nurse midwife) with her third.   I think there is every chance that any "midwife" present besides Jill is unlicensed if indeed there is anyone besides Jill.

I’d bet dollars to donuts that Teresa Fuckdowsky and Jilly Muff have been the only “midwives” (?) to attend any of the Duggar daughter births.  They really are just that stupid.

Edited March 16, 2018 by farmgal4
Forgot a Y

[MichaelaRae]

Well, given that 3 out of 4 Duggar daughter home births have resulted in a rushed visit to the hospital, I'll definitely agree.

[Heathen]

27 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

Well, given that 3 out of 4 Duggar daughter home births have resulted in a rushed visit to the hospital, I'll definitely agree.

Isn't it four out of five? (Israel, Sam, Spurgeon, and Gideon; neither Henry nor Jessa needed a hospital stay at his birth.) 

[Absolom]

An 80% transfer rate would tell your average person to run from whatever practitioner they were using.  Given the Duggars aren't average, I'm not sure what it will take.  They still used Miss Theresa after she was responsible or/involved with fetal demise so even barely good sense isn't a quality they possess.

[lianau]

I'm not sure I'd put Jessa into that group . I mean she suffered after birth complications 

[Temperance]

3 hours ago, CatS said:

I assume they are if licensed. The more I think about it though the more crazy I think it is that Jill has to give her sisters side hugs yet she/the fam is okay with doing pelvic exams on them. 

I think women/girls are allowed to hug each other. I've seen the Duggar girls hug their sisters and Michelle gives hugs. They only side hug their brothers/father, possibly because of the Josh situation. It was sad just typing that out. 

[Obsidian]

Ew, Jill probably breaks the ice while doing internal exams by talking about her #besteverhubby. 

[DragonFaerie]

11 minutes ago, Obsidian said:

Ew, Jill probably breaks the ice while doing internal exams by talking about her #besteverhubby. 

And now I have this image of her doing a selfie, with some knees behind her and her open mouth gape with #5cmdialated hashtag.  Ugh.  Brain bleach and off to the prayer closet.

[JoanArc]

16 hours ago, Temperance said:

2) Her sister Johannah was there. She seems young to be there. I'm glad no one tried to get me to witness a birth when I was her age.

Come on, she'll be pregnit within ten years. Gotta get her used to the process, all nice and brainwashed. Jesus wept.

3 hours ago, Obsidian said:

Ew, Jill probably breaks the ice while doing internal exams by talking about her #besteverhubby. 

She probably drops in random Spanish vocabulary, then cries after.

Edited March 16, 2018 by JoanArc

[Normades]

9 hours ago, Absolom said:

An 80% transfer rate would tell your average person to run from whatever practitioner they were using.  Given the Duggars aren't average, I'm not sure what it will take.  They still used Miss Theresa after she was responsible or/involved with fetal demise so even barely good sense isn't a quality they possess.

Well, they do things a little differently!!

[Barb23]

20 hours ago, Normades said:

Yes, if it happens to them it's god's will and he's testing them.  If it happens to a heathen, well, satan! 

I can't think of satan in connection with these people without thinking of satan building a fortress.  I always picture satan in a pillow fort sitting in there happily, all pleased with himself!!

For the Satan Building a Fortress thing, I picture a Lincoln Log type of set up with Satan guarding the entrance.

[MamaMax]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:46 PM, Normades said:

I had a CNM with my second child. I was able to move around and give birth in a position that worked best for me, plus the CNM stayed with me toward the end of my labor, which doctors didn't do (not sure if that's changed in over 20 years).  It was the best of both worlds -- I had the flexibility of a midwife and used the birthing suite at a hospital.  For me, things went south very fast after the birth and I required surgery and transfusions.  I'm thankful  I was at that hospital and for the wonderful care I received because I doubt I would have made it otherwise.  If you do research, you can get good care and have a voice in your birth plan.  I wish these idiots would actually use the brains they were given instead of thinking they are just speshul snowflakes and nothing could go wrong because Jesus!!  I really worry that they will continue down this path of ignorance and reality will bite them in a big way.

Me too. I was trying for a VBAC and thought midwives would be more supportive, and they were. Until I got to 42 weeks with no signs of dilation or effacement, with a sono that indicated a 9+ lb baby, and a lot of amniotic fluid (unusual as the fluid usually dissipates as you go overdue).  I could not have any drugs to soften the cervix. The CNM said to me: "While I can not stop you from insisting on a trial of labor, I feel that it would be irresponsible of me to NOT tell you that I think you would be at an intolerable risk of a uterine rupture."  I said : C-Section it is!  When the midwife says take the section, man, TAKE THE SECTION.

And good thing I did... the section took a lot longer than expected because I had a lot of adhesions from my first one.  The surgeon told me that IF I tried for a 3rd baby, I should have a scheduled section promptly, because it would take way too long to get him/her out if he/she went into distress. Nad would likely end in a hysterectomy. THANKS DOC! Thanks for studying for like 10 years and being super smart so that you can tell me things I couldn't possibly know on my own!! 

On 3/13/2018 at 9:08 PM, Marigold said:

Joy could've been discharged quickly. I had a few C-sections and was discharged the minute the doctor said I was fine.  I had the scheduled c-section(s) on a friday and was home on Monday afternoon.  I don't like hospitals and my husband could help me more than having to press the button for the nurse, who was already over busy, and took a while to come.  Trying to breastfed a baby post c-section requires help and sadly, nurses are given too many patients. 

Joy certainly has help at home so she probably left as soon as she was cleared.  Unless there was a medical need, why not? 

I couldn't get out fast enough with my babies, I HATED the hospital. I haunted the docs every time they came in my room: Can I go home? How about tomorrow? Like early? In the morning? Ok? OK? OK? 

LOL

[Heathen]

13 hours ago, lianau said:

I'm not sure I'd put Jessa into that group . I mean she suffered after birth complications 

Not sure what group you refer to, but Jessa needed hospitalization after Spurgeon was born, but not after Henry. 

[Natalie68]

15 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

If your state allows them to practice (with whatever exams are required), I would assume they're allowed to do internal exams. 

That said, would you want Dr.  Jill probing around all up in your business? *shudder*

No but if I had to, I certainly hope she has taken off her chipped nail polish first!

[madpsych78]

14 hours ago, MichaelaRae said:

Well, given that 3 out of 4 Duggar daughter home births have resulted in a rushed visit to the hospital, I'll definitely agree.

 

14 hours ago, Heathen said:

Isn't it four out of five? (Israel, Sam, Spurgeon, and Gideon; neither Henry nor Jessa needed a hospital stay at his birth.) 

If we are just focusing on biological Duggar daughters, then it is four out of five births as Heathen described. But I think Spurgeon's case was more about Jessa losing blood rather than anything wrong with Spurgeon himself. And, Jill and Joy have had C-sections while Jessa has delivered both children vaginally.

Now, add Anna, a Duggar daughter-in-law, to the mix and I believe five out of five births were basically free of complications. I also suspect that Anna's babies were somewhat smaller at birth than those of Jill, Jessa, and Joy. Of all Jill's, Jessa's, and Joy's children I believe Henry was the smallest as he was the only one who was less than nine pounds while the rest were high 9/low 10.

[Pingaponga]

Does anyone know what the odds are of having a breech baby, and do the odds go up if your sister has had a breech, or if you had a previous breech?  I only know of one person who had a breech baby, and she stopped after one kid.  I'm just wondering if Jill's experience upped the odds for Joy, and if the fact that now Jill and Joy have had breech babies it ups the odds for their sisters to have them as well.

I know when I was pregnant I was given advice in my prenatal class on what to do to encourage the baby to be head-down, although all I can remember now was to lean over a yoga ball on a daily basis or something.  (It's been 16 years, the details are fuzzy. I just remember my husband asking me on a regular basis.)

[Loves2Dance]

1 hour ago, Pingaponga said:

Does anyone know what the odds are of having a breech baby, and do the odds go up if your sister has had a breech, or if you had a previous breech?  I only know of one person who had a breech baby, and she stopped after one kid.  I'm just wondering if Jill's experience upped the odds for Joy, and if the fact that now Jill and Joy have had breech babies it ups the odds for their sisters to have them as well.

I know when I was pregnant I was given advice in my prenatal class on what to do to encourage the baby to be head-down, although all I can remember now was to lean over a yoga ball on a daily basis or something.  (It's been 16 years, the details are fuzzy. I just remember my husband asking me on a regular basis.)

I had one breech and one not-breech. From everything I researched and talked to my OB about, it has more to do with placenta placement and gestational age at birth than anything else. Never anything hereditary. @doodlebug would have more facts on that. 

[MamaMax]

I have been thinking about this Duggar daughter preoccupation with home births. I am wondering if they have all latched onto the criticisms of hospital based, MD assisted birth: that you wind up with more interventions and therefore more cesarean sections.  Since c sections are an impediment to having eleventy kids, they may fear the section more than the virtually unassisted homebirth. Ironically, their (suspected) lack of prenatal care is actually impeding safe vaginal births.  I have NOTHING against home births -- as long as the pregnancy is KNOWN to be uncomplicated and the baby is KNOWN to be in position.  

[Loves2Dance]

22 minutes ago, MamaMax said:

I have been thinking about this Duggar daughter preoccupation with home births. I am wondering if they have all latched onto the criticisms of hospital based, MD assisted birth: that you wind up with more interventions and therefore more cesarean sections.  Since c sections are an impediment to having eleventy kids, they may fear the section more than the virtually unassisted homebirth. Ironically, their (suspected) lack of prenatal care is actually impeding safe vaginal births.  I have NOTHING against home births -- as long as the pregnancy is KNOWN to be uncomplicated and the baby is KNOWN to be in position.  

Maybe, but I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of health insurance. 

[cmr2014]

31 minutes ago, Loves2Dance said:

Maybe, but I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of health insurance. 

I think it's all wound up in the Gothard thing.

God wants you to have as many babies as you can.

God wants you to work for yourself.

But if I work for myself, I can't afford health insurance for my family and won't be able to afford to pay for all of those births.

Having babies is the role that God has ordained for women. It's perfectly normal and natural and God protects women who pray.

[graefin]

1 hour ago, Loves2Dance said:

Maybe, but I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of health insurance. 

The Bateses go to a free (or low-cost) Christian-based ob clinic run by a Dr. Vick. There was an episode where Whitney was told during an exam that the baby was breech and that usually as the pregnancy progresses they run out of room to turn on their own. Vick said she'd then have two options: they could either try to spin him into the correct position for a vaginal birth or do a C-section.

All this is to say that competent ob care is possible in the Gothard/fundie universe. Why can't the Duggars manage to find a similar clinic in their neck of the woods?

Edited March 16, 2018 by graefin

[Sew Sumi]

I think Whit was in labor when they spun little Kaci around, avoiding the c-section. But still, Kaci was small enough (I think Whit's kids have both been in the 7-8 lb. range), and she had an actual doctor monitoring her care. Two things Duggar girls haven't had the luxury of having. Anna ALMOST had it with Meredith, until forced back to AR after Joshgate. 

[babyhouseman]

2 hours ago, Loves2Dance said:

I had one breech and one not-breech. From everything I researched and talked to my OB about, it has more to do with placenta placement and gestational age at birth than anything else. Never anything hereditary. @doodlebug would have more facts on that. 

I was breech. My mother's sister two boys were not. My mother was in her mid twenties when she had me. For some reason, the doctor didn't do a csection(this was over 40 years ago), and my mother had a difficult birth so I was an only child. 

[Loves2Dance]

1 hour ago, graefin said:

The Bateses go to a free (or low-cost) Christian-based ob clinic run by a Dr. Vick. There was an episode where Whitney was told during an exam that the baby was breech and that usually as the pregnancy progresses they run out of room to turn on their own. Vick said she'd then have two options: they could either try to spin him into the correct position for a vaginal birth or do a C-section.

All this is to say that competent ob care is possible in the Gothard/fundie universe. Why can't the Duggars manage to find a similar clinic in their neck of the woods?

One may not exist. Or, if it does exist, is still 'too expensive' when they think Jill's experience is enough to get them by. 

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, graefin said:

The Bateses go to a free (or low-cost) Christian-based ob clinic run by a Dr. Vick. There was an episode where Whitney was told during an exam that the baby was breech and that usually as the pregnancy progresses they run out of room to turn on their own. Vick said she'd then have two options: they could either try to spin him into the correct position for a vaginal birth or do a C-section.

All this is to say that competent ob care is possible in the Gothard/fundie universe. Why can't the Duggars manage to find a similar clinic in their neck of the woods?

If I ran a low-cost clinic for the needy in my area, I'd be pretty pissed to see one of the Duggarr daughters waddle into my office. I don't buy that the family is super-wealthy, and I certainly don't buy that Jinger is worth two million dollars, but they have enough money to buy a bunch of houses, and a bunch of cars, and to throw crappy weddings for their umpteen daughters, and they're all healthy and able-bodied, and they could go out and get work if they chose. There are a lot of people who are poor and a lot of people who are struggling through no fault of their own, and the fact that the Duggars are always first in line when something is being given away or discounted is really kind of offensive.

[Heathen]

17 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

If I ran a low-cost clinic for the needy in my area, I'd be pretty pissed to see one of the Duggarr daughters waddle into my office. I don't buy that the family is super-wealthy, and I certainly don't buy that Jinger is worth two million dollars, but they have enough money to buy a bunch of houses, and a bunch of cars, and to throw crappy weddings for their umpteen daughters, and they're all healthy and able-bodied, and they could go out and get work if they chose. There are a lot of people who are poor and a lot of people who are struggling through no fault of their own, and the fact that the Duggars are always first in line when something is being given away or discounted is really kind of offensive.

I'd be pretty steamed if a Batesling waddled into a low-cost clinic, too. 

[Sew Sumi]

At least Zach has good insurance. Not sure about Chad anymore, but he had to have been insured or Erin's treatments could have bankrupted them. 

[cmr2014]

You know what most responsible people do when they can't afford to have children? They DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. They go to school, or they learn a trade and get themselves established, and then they have children.

Sometimes,though, through bad luck, or poor planning, women end up pregnant and without resources. In those situations, I'm glad to know that there are free and low-cost clinics to help them.

That's not the case with Duggars, though. They are marrying off their uneducated teenagers to other uneducated teenagers and HOPING that they will immediately have children. These are grossly irresponsible people who shouldn't be treated the same way as people who  are genuinely in need.

[bigskygirl]

The sad fact is going to a low cost clinic may not provide the best medical care possible. In order to get the best care, the patient has to be honest and meet the medical team half way. In the case of the Duggars, I doubt that would really happen.

[JoanArc]

13 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

There are a lot of people who are poor and a lot of people who are struggling through no fault of their own, and the fact that the Duggars are always first in line when something is being given away or discounted is really kind of offensive.

Their first commandment: Hard work and suffering are for other people.

(Closely followed by the second commandment: Always make a big show about how hard you work and suffer.)

[beckie]

15 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I think Whit was in labor when they spun little Kaci around, avoiding the c-section. But still, Kaci was small enough (I think Whit's kids have both been in the 7-8 lb. range), and she had an actual doctor monitoring her care. Two things Duggar girls haven't had the luxury of having. Anna ALMOST had it with Meredith, until forced back to AR after Joshgate. 

She almost had Mackynzie in a hospital, too. The reason she ended up having her at home was because her dr (or midwife, can't remember which) couldn't be there for the birth.

[Lady Edith]

In RE: the waiting to get pregnant after c-section thing, I gave birth to two YOUGE babies (10 lbs 4 ozs three weeks early and 12 lbs) via C-section.  After my first, my doc told me flat out to wait a minimum of two years to get PG again.  He said that the risk of uterine rupture is higher for moms who do get PG before two years than for those who wait. I went home and looked up uterine rupture and I said NOPE.  I waited five years just to be absolutely certain I was healed as well as I was going to be.  Too much risk to the baby and me to even consider otherwise.  Even if I had the “right Jesus” in my corner.  ?

I believe that Jill did wait almost two years to try for Sam.  Not sure if it was a healing thing or if that’s just how long it took them to get one to stick.  Hoping that Joy waits as well.  And next time she gets good prenatal care.  That whole sketchy fundie midwife with homebirth thing is just too crazy for me to even consider.  Especially if she is trying for a VBAC.  

Edited March 18, 2018 by Lady Edith
Forgot to add that I had C-sections.

[Heathen]

46 minutes ago, beckie said:

She almost had Mackynzie in a hospital, too. The reason she ended up having her at home was because her dr (or midwife, can't remember which) couldn't be there for the birth.

Dr. Amy Sarver. She was Mullet's obstetrician for several of her later deliveries, too (Johannah, Jennifer, and Jordyn, I think). 

[Quof]

I thought it was because, since Dr. Sarver wasn't available, they couldn't find someone at the last minute who would allow a film crew.

[Sew Sumi]

Mack was about a week early, and IIRC, Dr. Sarver was on vacation. They said Anna was uncomfortable with the doctor on call, who was male. Of course, that doctor may have ix-nayed a film crew, but they're not going to break the 4th wall and tell us that. 

[floridamom]

I have always believed that Anna didn't necessarily want a strange male doctor handling her lady parts, that's another reason she agreed with Josh to have Mac at home. I also believe if she was taken to a hospital from the get to with Mac, she would have been ok with that too. She couldn't make the decision, so Josh opted for the easier way for HIM.

[Sew Sumi]

They made it seem like it was a spur of the moment decision what with Smuggar calling Boob to relay the news. Boob actually sounded concerned. After all, this was the first grandkid, and they hadn't gone all batshit with midwife school yet. 

[louannems]

3 hours ago, Lady Edith said:

In RE: the waiting to get pregnant after c-section thing, I gave birth to two YOUGE babies (10 lbs 4 ozs three weeks early and 12 lbs).  After my first, my doc told me flat out to wait a minimum of two years to get PG again.  He said that the risk of uterine rupture is higher for moms who do get PG before two years than for those who wait. I went home and looked up uterine rupture and I said NOPE.  I waited five years just to be absolutely certain I was healed as well as I was going to be.  Too much risk to the baby and me to even consider otherwise.  Even if I had the “right Jesus” in my corner.  ?

I believe that Jill did wait almost two years to try for Sam.  Not sure if it was a healing thing or if that’s just how long it took them to get one to stick.  Hoping that Joy waits as well.  And next time she gets good prenatal care.  That whole sketchy fundie midwife with homebirth thing is just too crazy for me to even consider.  Especially if she is trying for a VBAC.  

My mom had 5 C-section's in almost as few years. One brother is 14 months older than me, another is 17 months younger than me.  My 2 sisters are 17 months apart.  We were all 6 to 8 lb. This was in the late 1950's/ early 1960's.

But still, I do hope Joy and Austin grow up a bit before they even think about more babies!  My mom was young, too, married  2 months shy of 18, and first baby 10 months later.

I'm sure Joy will be pregnant before Gideon's first birthday.

[Gweilo]

Sadly, I think that if Austin commanded it, Joy would be pregnant next week.