Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[Heathen]

27 minutes ago, MichaelaRae said:

Well, given that 3 out of 4 Duggar daughter home births have resulted in a rushed visit to the hospital, I'll definitely agree.

Isn't it four out of five? (Israel, Sam, Spurgeon, and Gideon; neither Henry nor Jessa needed a hospital stay at his birth.) 

[Absolom]

An 80% transfer rate would tell your average person to run from whatever practitioner they were using.  Given the Duggars aren't average, I'm not sure what it will take.  They still used Miss Theresa after she was responsible or/involved with fetal demise so even barely good sense isn't a quality they possess.

[lianau]

I'm not sure I'd put Jessa into that group . I mean she suffered after birth complications 

[Temperance]

3 hours ago, CatS said:

I assume they are if licensed. The more I think about it though the more crazy I think it is that Jill has to give her sisters side hugs yet she/the fam is okay with doing pelvic exams on them. 

I think women/girls are allowed to hug each other. I've seen the Duggar girls hug their sisters and Michelle gives hugs. They only side hug their brothers/father, possibly because of the Josh situation. It was sad just typing that out. 

[Obsidian]

Ew, Jill probably breaks the ice while doing internal exams by talking about her #besteverhubby. 

[DragonFaerie]

11 minutes ago, Obsidian said:

Ew, Jill probably breaks the ice while doing internal exams by talking about her #besteverhubby. 

And now I have this image of her doing a selfie, with some knees behind her and her open mouth gape with #5cmdialated hashtag.  Ugh.  Brain bleach and off to the prayer closet.

[JoanArc]

16 hours ago, Temperance said:

2) Her sister Johannah was there. She seems young to be there. I'm glad no one tried to get me to witness a birth when I was her age.

Come on, she'll be pregnit within ten years. Gotta get her used to the process, all nice and brainwashed. Jesus wept.

3 hours ago, Obsidian said:

Ew, Jill probably breaks the ice while doing internal exams by talking about her #besteverhubby. 

She probably drops in random Spanish vocabulary, then cries after.

Edited March 16, 2018 by JoanArc

[Normades]

9 hours ago, Absolom said:

An 80% transfer rate would tell your average person to run from whatever practitioner they were using.  Given the Duggars aren't average, I'm not sure what it will take.  They still used Miss Theresa after she was responsible or/involved with fetal demise so even barely good sense isn't a quality they possess.

Well, they do things a little differently!!

[Barb23]

20 hours ago, Normades said:

Yes, if it happens to them it's god's will and he's testing them.  If it happens to a heathen, well, satan! 

I can't think of satan in connection with these people without thinking of satan building a fortress.  I always picture satan in a pillow fort sitting in there happily, all pleased with himself!!

For the Satan Building a Fortress thing, I picture a Lincoln Log type of set up with Satan guarding the entrance.

[MamaMax]

On 3/13/2018 at 3:46 PM, Normades said:

I had a CNM with my second child. I was able to move around and give birth in a position that worked best for me, plus the CNM stayed with me toward the end of my labor, which doctors didn't do (not sure if that's changed in over 20 years).  It was the best of both worlds -- I had the flexibility of a midwife and used the birthing suite at a hospital.  For me, things went south very fast after the birth and I required surgery and transfusions.  I'm thankful  I was at that hospital and for the wonderful care I received because I doubt I would have made it otherwise.  If you do research, you can get good care and have a voice in your birth plan.  I wish these idiots would actually use the brains they were given instead of thinking they are just speshul snowflakes and nothing could go wrong because Jesus!!  I really worry that they will continue down this path of ignorance and reality will bite them in a big way.

Me too. I was trying for a VBAC and thought midwives would be more supportive, and they were. Until I got to 42 weeks with no signs of dilation or effacement, with a sono that indicated a 9+ lb baby, and a lot of amniotic fluid (unusual as the fluid usually dissipates as you go overdue).  I could not have any drugs to soften the cervix. The CNM said to me: "While I can not stop you from insisting on a trial of labor, I feel that it would be irresponsible of me to NOT tell you that I think you would be at an intolerable risk of a uterine rupture."  I said : C-Section it is!  When the midwife says take the section, man, TAKE THE SECTION.

And good thing I did... the section took a lot longer than expected because I had a lot of adhesions from my first one.  The surgeon told me that IF I tried for a 3rd baby, I should have a scheduled section promptly, because it would take way too long to get him/her out if he/she went into distress. Nad would likely end in a hysterectomy. THANKS DOC! Thanks for studying for like 10 years and being super smart so that you can tell me things I couldn't possibly know on my own!! 

On 3/13/2018 at 9:08 PM, Marigold said:

Joy could've been discharged quickly. I had a few C-sections and was discharged the minute the doctor said I was fine.  I had the scheduled c-section(s) on a friday and was home on Monday afternoon.  I don't like hospitals and my husband could help me more than having to press the button for the nurse, who was already over busy, and took a while to come.  Trying to breastfed a baby post c-section requires help and sadly, nurses are given too many patients. 

Joy certainly has help at home so she probably left as soon as she was cleared.  Unless there was a medical need, why not? 

I couldn't get out fast enough with my babies, I HATED the hospital. I haunted the docs every time they came in my room: Can I go home? How about tomorrow? Like early? In the morning? Ok? OK? OK? 

LOL

[Heathen]

13 hours ago, lianau said:

I'm not sure I'd put Jessa into that group . I mean she suffered after birth complications 

Not sure what group you refer to, but Jessa needed hospitalization after Spurgeon was born, but not after Henry. 

[Natalie68]

15 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

If your state allows them to practice (with whatever exams are required), I would assume they're allowed to do internal exams. 

That said, would you want Dr.  Jill probing around all up in your business? *shudder*

No but if I had to, I certainly hope she has taken off her chipped nail polish first!

[madpsych78]

14 hours ago, MichaelaRae said:

Well, given that 3 out of 4 Duggar daughter home births have resulted in a rushed visit to the hospital, I'll definitely agree.

 

14 hours ago, Heathen said:

Isn't it four out of five? (Israel, Sam, Spurgeon, and Gideon; neither Henry nor Jessa needed a hospital stay at his birth.) 

If we are just focusing on biological Duggar daughters, then it is four out of five births as Heathen described. But I think Spurgeon's case was more about Jessa losing blood rather than anything wrong with Spurgeon himself. And, Jill and Joy have had C-sections while Jessa has delivered both children vaginally.

Now, add Anna, a Duggar daughter-in-law, to the mix and I believe five out of five births were basically free of complications. I also suspect that Anna's babies were somewhat smaller at birth than those of Jill, Jessa, and Joy. Of all Jill's, Jessa's, and Joy's children I believe Henry was the smallest as he was the only one who was less than nine pounds while the rest were high 9/low 10.

[Pingaponga]

Does anyone know what the odds are of having a breech baby, and do the odds go up if your sister has had a breech, or if you had a previous breech?  I only know of one person who had a breech baby, and she stopped after one kid.  I'm just wondering if Jill's experience upped the odds for Joy, and if the fact that now Jill and Joy have had breech babies it ups the odds for their sisters to have them as well.

I know when I was pregnant I was given advice in my prenatal class on what to do to encourage the baby to be head-down, although all I can remember now was to lean over a yoga ball on a daily basis or something.  (It's been 16 years, the details are fuzzy. I just remember my husband asking me on a regular basis.)

[Loves2Dance]

1 hour ago, Pingaponga said:

Does anyone know what the odds are of having a breech baby, and do the odds go up if your sister has had a breech, or if you had a previous breech?  I only know of one person who had a breech baby, and she stopped after one kid.  I'm just wondering if Jill's experience upped the odds for Joy, and if the fact that now Jill and Joy have had breech babies it ups the odds for their sisters to have them as well.

I know when I was pregnant I was given advice in my prenatal class on what to do to encourage the baby to be head-down, although all I can remember now was to lean over a yoga ball on a daily basis or something.  (It's been 16 years, the details are fuzzy. I just remember my husband asking me on a regular basis.)

I had one breech and one not-breech. From everything I researched and talked to my OB about, it has more to do with placenta placement and gestational age at birth than anything else. Never anything hereditary. @doodlebug would have more facts on that. 

[MamaMax]

I have been thinking about this Duggar daughter preoccupation with home births. I am wondering if they have all latched onto the criticisms of hospital based, MD assisted birth: that you wind up with more interventions and therefore more cesarean sections.  Since c sections are an impediment to having eleventy kids, they may fear the section more than the virtually unassisted homebirth. Ironically, their (suspected) lack of prenatal care is actually impeding safe vaginal births.  I have NOTHING against home births -- as long as the pregnancy is KNOWN to be uncomplicated and the baby is KNOWN to be in position.  

[Loves2Dance]

22 minutes ago, MamaMax said:

I have been thinking about this Duggar daughter preoccupation with home births. I am wondering if they have all latched onto the criticisms of hospital based, MD assisted birth: that you wind up with more interventions and therefore more cesarean sections.  Since c sections are an impediment to having eleventy kids, they may fear the section more than the virtually unassisted homebirth. Ironically, their (suspected) lack of prenatal care is actually impeding safe vaginal births.  I have NOTHING against home births -- as long as the pregnancy is KNOWN to be uncomplicated and the baby is KNOWN to be in position.  

Maybe, but I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of health insurance. 

[cmr2014]

31 minutes ago, Loves2Dance said:

Maybe, but I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of health insurance. 

I think it's all wound up in the Gothard thing.

God wants you to have as many babies as you can.

God wants you to work for yourself.

But if I work for myself, I can't afford health insurance for my family and won't be able to afford to pay for all of those births.

Having babies is the role that God has ordained for women. It's perfectly normal and natural and God protects women who pray.

[graefin]

1 hour ago, Loves2Dance said:

Maybe, but I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of health insurance. 

The Bateses go to a free (or low-cost) Christian-based ob clinic run by a Dr. Vick. There was an episode where Whitney was told during an exam that the baby was breech and that usually as the pregnancy progresses they run out of room to turn on their own. Vick said she'd then have two options: they could either try to spin him into the correct position for a vaginal birth or do a C-section.

All this is to say that competent ob care is possible in the Gothard/fundie universe. Why can't the Duggars manage to find a similar clinic in their neck of the woods?

Edited March 16, 2018 by graefin

[Sew Sumi]

I think Whit was in labor when they spun little Kaci around, avoiding the c-section. But still, Kaci was small enough (I think Whit's kids have both been in the 7-8 lb. range), and she had an actual doctor monitoring her care. Two things Duggar girls haven't had the luxury of having. Anna ALMOST had it with Meredith, until forced back to AR after Joshgate. 

[babyhouseman]

2 hours ago, Loves2Dance said:

I had one breech and one not-breech. From everything I researched and talked to my OB about, it has more to do with placenta placement and gestational age at birth than anything else. Never anything hereditary. @doodlebug would have more facts on that. 

I was breech. My mother's sister two boys were not. My mother was in her mid twenties when she had me. For some reason, the doctor didn't do a csection(this was over 40 years ago), and my mother had a difficult birth so I was an only child. 

[Loves2Dance]

1 hour ago, graefin said:

The Bateses go to a free (or low-cost) Christian-based ob clinic run by a Dr. Vick. There was an episode where Whitney was told during an exam that the baby was breech and that usually as the pregnancy progresses they run out of room to turn on their own. Vick said she'd then have two options: they could either try to spin him into the correct position for a vaginal birth or do a C-section.

All this is to say that competent ob care is possible in the Gothard/fundie universe. Why can't the Duggars manage to find a similar clinic in their neck of the woods?

One may not exist. Or, if it does exist, is still 'too expensive' when they think Jill's experience is enough to get them by. 

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, graefin said:

The Bateses go to a free (or low-cost) Christian-based ob clinic run by a Dr. Vick. There was an episode where Whitney was told during an exam that the baby was breech and that usually as the pregnancy progresses they run out of room to turn on their own. Vick said she'd then have two options: they could either try to spin him into the correct position for a vaginal birth or do a C-section.

All this is to say that competent ob care is possible in the Gothard/fundie universe. Why can't the Duggars manage to find a similar clinic in their neck of the woods?

If I ran a low-cost clinic for the needy in my area, I'd be pretty pissed to see one of the Duggarr daughters waddle into my office. I don't buy that the family is super-wealthy, and I certainly don't buy that Jinger is worth two million dollars, but they have enough money to buy a bunch of houses, and a bunch of cars, and to throw crappy weddings for their umpteen daughters, and they're all healthy and able-bodied, and they could go out and get work if they chose. There are a lot of people who are poor and a lot of people who are struggling through no fault of their own, and the fact that the Duggars are always first in line when something is being given away or discounted is really kind of offensive.

[Heathen]

17 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

If I ran a low-cost clinic for the needy in my area, I'd be pretty pissed to see one of the Duggarr daughters waddle into my office. I don't buy that the family is super-wealthy, and I certainly don't buy that Jinger is worth two million dollars, but they have enough money to buy a bunch of houses, and a bunch of cars, and to throw crappy weddings for their umpteen daughters, and they're all healthy and able-bodied, and they could go out and get work if they chose. There are a lot of people who are poor and a lot of people who are struggling through no fault of their own, and the fact that the Duggars are always first in line when something is being given away or discounted is really kind of offensive.

I'd be pretty steamed if a Batesling waddled into a low-cost clinic, too. 

[Sew Sumi]

At least Zach has good insurance. Not sure about Chad anymore, but he had to have been insured or Erin's treatments could have bankrupted them. 

[cmr2014]

You know what most responsible people do when they can't afford to have children? They DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. They go to school, or they learn a trade and get themselves established, and then they have children.

Sometimes,though, through bad luck, or poor planning, women end up pregnant and without resources. In those situations, I'm glad to know that there are free and low-cost clinics to help them.

That's not the case with Duggars, though. They are marrying off their uneducated teenagers to other uneducated teenagers and HOPING that they will immediately have children. These are grossly irresponsible people who shouldn't be treated the same way as people who  are genuinely in need.

[bigskygirl]

The sad fact is going to a low cost clinic may not provide the best medical care possible. In order to get the best care, the patient has to be honest and meet the medical team half way. In the case of the Duggars, I doubt that would really happen.

[JoanArc]

13 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

There are a lot of people who are poor and a lot of people who are struggling through no fault of their own, and the fact that the Duggars are always first in line when something is being given away or discounted is really kind of offensive.

Their first commandment: Hard work and suffering are for other people.

(Closely followed by the second commandment: Always make a big show about how hard you work and suffer.)

[beckie]

15 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I think Whit was in labor when they spun little Kaci around, avoiding the c-section. But still, Kaci was small enough (I think Whit's kids have both been in the 7-8 lb. range), and she had an actual doctor monitoring her care. Two things Duggar girls haven't had the luxury of having. Anna ALMOST had it with Meredith, until forced back to AR after Joshgate. 

She almost had Mackynzie in a hospital, too. The reason she ended up having her at home was because her dr (or midwife, can't remember which) couldn't be there for the birth.

[Lady Edith]

In RE: the waiting to get pregnant after c-section thing, I gave birth to two YOUGE babies (10 lbs 4 ozs three weeks early and 12 lbs) via C-section.  After my first, my doc told me flat out to wait a minimum of two years to get PG again.  He said that the risk of uterine rupture is higher for moms who do get PG before two years than for those who wait. I went home and looked up uterine rupture and I said NOPE.  I waited five years just to be absolutely certain I was healed as well as I was going to be.  Too much risk to the baby and me to even consider otherwise.  Even if I had the “right Jesus” in my corner.  ?

I believe that Jill did wait almost two years to try for Sam.  Not sure if it was a healing thing or if that’s just how long it took them to get one to stick.  Hoping that Joy waits as well.  And next time she gets good prenatal care.  That whole sketchy fundie midwife with homebirth thing is just too crazy for me to even consider.  Especially if she is trying for a VBAC.  

Edited March 18, 2018 by Lady Edith
Forgot to add that I had C-sections.

[Heathen]

46 minutes ago, beckie said:

She almost had Mackynzie in a hospital, too. The reason she ended up having her at home was because her dr (or midwife, can't remember which) couldn't be there for the birth.

Dr. Amy Sarver. She was Mullet's obstetrician for several of her later deliveries, too (Johannah, Jennifer, and Jordyn, I think). 

[Quof]

I thought it was because, since Dr. Sarver wasn't available, they couldn't find someone at the last minute who would allow a film crew.

[Sew Sumi]

Mack was about a week early, and IIRC, Dr. Sarver was on vacation. They said Anna was uncomfortable with the doctor on call, who was male. Of course, that doctor may have ix-nayed a film crew, but they're not going to break the 4th wall and tell us that. 

[floridamom]

I have always believed that Anna didn't necessarily want a strange male doctor handling her lady parts, that's another reason she agreed with Josh to have Mac at home. I also believe if she was taken to a hospital from the get to with Mac, she would have been ok with that too. She couldn't make the decision, so Josh opted for the easier way for HIM.

[Sew Sumi]

They made it seem like it was a spur of the moment decision what with Smuggar calling Boob to relay the news. Boob actually sounded concerned. After all, this was the first grandkid, and they hadn't gone all batshit with midwife school yet. 

[louannems]

3 hours ago, Lady Edith said:

In RE: the waiting to get pregnant after c-section thing, I gave birth to two YOUGE babies (10 lbs 4 ozs three weeks early and 12 lbs).  After my first, my doc told me flat out to wait a minimum of two years to get PG again.  He said that the risk of uterine rupture is higher for moms who do get PG before two years than for those who wait. I went home and looked up uterine rupture and I said NOPE.  I waited five years just to be absolutely certain I was healed as well as I was going to be.  Too much risk to the baby and me to even consider otherwise.  Even if I had the “right Jesus” in my corner.  ?

I believe that Jill did wait almost two years to try for Sam.  Not sure if it was a healing thing or if that’s just how long it took them to get one to stick.  Hoping that Joy waits as well.  And next time she gets good prenatal care.  That whole sketchy fundie midwife with homebirth thing is just too crazy for me to even consider.  Especially if she is trying for a VBAC.  

My mom had 5 C-section's in almost as few years. One brother is 14 months older than me, another is 17 months younger than me.  My 2 sisters are 17 months apart.  We were all 6 to 8 lb. This was in the late 1950's/ early 1960's.

But still, I do hope Joy and Austin grow up a bit before they even think about more babies!  My mom was young, too, married  2 months shy of 18, and first baby 10 months later.

I'm sure Joy will be pregnant before Gideon's first birthday.

[Gweilo]

Sadly, I think that if Austin commanded it, Joy would be pregnant next week.

[Bayarea4]

While I was watching poor Joy struggling through hours of labor pain, I thought of another possible reason fundy men don't want their women giving birth in hospitals. Yes, I get that home births are cheaper. Yes, I get that health insurance is expensive when you're self-employed. Yes, I get that these men don't want strange male doctors looking at their wives' lady parts.

But I think there's another reason. They think it's OK for women to suffer. They believe this is God's will. After all, didn't Eve disobey God, eat the apple and bring this punishment on herself and on every other woman ever born? Maybe this is how these men justify the pain of natural childbirth and resist medical interventions that might make it easier. Women are second-class citizens who don't deserve pain relief because hey, they're sinners. If childbirth hurts, too bad - it's their own damn fault.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Bayarea4
Add a sentence.

[Jynnan tonnix]

13 hours ago, louannems said:

My mom had 5 C-section's in almost as few years. One brother is 14 months older than me, another is 17 months younger than me.  My 2 sisters are 17 months apart.  We were all 6 to 8 lb. This was in the late 1950's/ early 1960's.

But still, I do hope Joy and Austin grow up a bit before they even think about more babies!  My mom was young, too, married  2 months shy of 18, and first baby 10 months later.

I'm sure Joy will be pregnant before Gideon's first birthday.

Sounds a bit like my mother-in-law who got married at 19 and had 7 kids over the next 10 years. She had all her babies vaginally, but that was still mostly in the era where women were heavily sedated throughout labor then were immediately given something to keep their milk from coming in as breast-feeding was out of style in favor of the new, and supposedly superior baby formulas. It's so strange to think, nowadays, that those practices were so widespread.

[kokapetl]

I tried to view the Very Special Episodes, but I couldn’t. Were they only ten minutes long?

Are they another case of TLC’s working backwards approach to Duggar weddings and babies, where they seem compelled to publish something timely when the event occurs, but all the lead up is aired 9+ months behind?

[Normades]

4 hours ago, Bayarea4 said:

While I was watching poor Joy struggling through hours of labor pain, I thought of another possible reason fundy men don't want their women giving birth in hospitals. Yes, I get that home births are cheaper. Yes, I get that health insurance is expensive when you're self-employed. Yes, I get that these men don't want strange male doctors looking at their wives' lady parts.

But I think there's another reason. They think it's OK for women to suffer. They believe this is God's will. After all, didn't Eve disobey God, eat the apple and bring this punishment on herself and on every other woman ever born? Maybe this is how these men justify the pain of natural childbirth and resist medical interventions that might make it easier. Women are second-class citizens who don't deserve pain relief because hey, they're sinners. If childbirth hurts, too bad - it's their own damn fault.

I've always thought this was part of the reason they allow their women to suffer with inadequate care. When you consider women as lesser beings, it's easy to not worry about their well-being, plus home births are more convenient for the men.

[Albanyguy]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

I've always thought this was part of the reason they allow their women to suffer with inadequate care. When you consider women as lesser beings, it's easy to not worry about their well-being,

The classic example being Josh taking a nap while Anna labored to deliver their first child on a toilet. And then there was the time Michelle went into labor and Jim Bob refused to drive her to the hospital until his daughters had cooked him a hot breakfast. 

[Annabel11]

Did anyone mention yet Austin calling out Joy on her rude comment about not caring what other people's opinions were when deciding the baby s name. He said they would say it more nicely. Joy seems a bit unrefined from her neglectful upbringing. I hope she's enjoying being a mom.

[Barb23]

That's a very good point that these type of men don't mind seeing their wives suffer through childbirth. I'm glad my husband is the opposite & can't  stand seeing me in any type of pain. 

[Caracoa1]

IIRC when Anna went into labor with her first child, Dr. Sarver was on vacation and JOSH was uncomfortable with a male OB looking at Anna's lady parts hence his decision that she have a home birth.  Austin appears to me he will be very controlling and very authoritarian.....he will decide when their next child is conceived...not the doctors who performed Joy's C-Section.

[bigskygirl]

1 hour ago, Caracoa1 said:

IIRC when Anna went into labor with her first child, Dr. Sarver was on vacation and JOSH was uncomfortable with a male OB looking at Anna's lady parts hence his decision that she have a home birth.  Austin appears to me he will be very controlling and very authoritarian.....he will decide when their next child is conceived...not the doctors who performed Joy's C-Section.

After what Josh did, he feels uncomfortable... What an ass!

[madpsych78]

9 hours ago, Bayarea4 said:

While I was watching poor Joy struggling through hours of labor pain, I thought of another possible reason fundy men don't want their women giving birth in hospitals. Yes, I get that home births are cheaper. Yes, I get that health insurance is expensive when you're self-employed. Yes, I get that these men don't want strange male doctors looking at their wives' lady parts.

But I think there's another reason. They think it's OK for women to suffer. They believe this is God's will. After all, didn't Eve disobey God, eat the apple and bring this punishment on herself and on every other woman ever born? Maybe this is how these men justify the pain of natural childbirth and resist medical interventions that might make it easier. Women are second-class citizens who don't deserve pain relief because hey, they're sinners. If childbirth hurts, too bad - it's their own damn fault.

I think there is some truth to this with most of these couples, except for Benessa. Ben was clearly anxious at the possibility of Jessa hemorrhaging with Henry like she did with Spurge.

[graefin]

1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

I think there is some truth to this with most of these couples, except for Benessa. Ben was clearly anxious at the possibility of Jessa hemorrhaging with Henry like she did with Spurge.

Didn't he also give an interview where he said it was hard to see her in pain without being able to do anything to relieve it?

[JocelynCavanaugh]

2 hours ago, graefin said:

Didn't he also give an interview where he said it was hard to see her in pain without being able to do anything to relieve it?

It's nice of him to have empathy, but depressing that they think there's nothing they can do when they live so close to so many clean, well-supplied, first-world facilities that almost certainly stock pain medication. 

[Temperance]

8 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

The classic example being Josh taking a nap while Anna labored to deliver their first second child on a toilet. And then there was the time Michelle went into labor and Jim Bob refused to drive her to the hospital until his daughters had cooked him a hot breakfast. 

Fixed for you. Anna gave birth to their second child (Michael) on the toliet.