Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[emmawoodhouse]

21 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Didn’t some of their children attend this last year? 

I think so. Mack and Mike, maybe Marcus?

[ginger90]

5 minutes ago, Zella said:

US Magazine is reporting that Josh was transferred to a Texas prison (either Seagoville or Texarkana), but I wonder if those Einsteins are just assuming that the judge's recommendation is an automatic, which it isn't. I didn't see any indication they had inside information. The Daily Fail has picked it up and is repeating it because of course they are. 

There’s also a bunch of click bait articles out there with the titles stating he’s been “released”.

[quarks]

The one huge difference between Michael Peterson's case and Josh's case, though, is that although I think Michael Peterson is probably guilty (based pretty much just on watching the documentary - not the HBOMax thing, the documentary - and reading the book by his defense attorney), Peterson at least can point to actual cop and prosecutorial misconduct; the main guy who did the forensics against him was later proved to have falsified evidence and lied on the stand in numerous other cases, or just gotten the science wrong, and falsified evidence in Peterson's case as well. He also has two alternative explanations for what happened - neither particularly convincing, in my opinion, but at least alternative explanations. So there are things that his kids and friends can point to and say, see, this is why he's innocent. 

 And Peterson never confessed to previous crimes. He says he only took the Alford plea for this crime because he is/was completely exhausted and broke, and can't go through another trial again; he continues to maintain his innocence. I think it's important to note that several people, not just his defense attorney and kids, have looked at the evidence and said, yeah, there's at least some reasonable doubt here.

As far as I can tell none of this is going on with Josh.

And the M kids apparently are continuing to hang out with people who believe/know/have publicly stated that Josh is as guilty as hell. I mean, even most of the letters written to support Josh didn't try to argue that he's innocent.  So I think there's a fairly solid chance that at least one or two, and probably more, will not be sticking by him and/or will cut ties. And if Anna continues to refuse to accept reality, I suspect her relationship with at least some of her kids will become very strained indeed. 

[Westiepeach]

4 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Yea, Peterson.... why? 

And then you have the Lacey/Stacey situation. That always freaked me out a little bit… similar names.

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

The one huge difference between Michael Peterson's case and Josh's case, though, is that although I think Michael Peterson is probably guilty (based pretty much just on watching the documentary - not the HBOMax thing, the documentary - and reading the book by his defense attorney), Peterson at least can point to actual cop and prosecutorial misconduct; the main guy who did the forensics against him was later proved to have falsified evidence and lied on the stand in numerous other cases, or just gotten the science wrong, and falsified evidence in Peterson's case as well. He also has two alternative explanations for what happened - neither particularly convincing, in my opinion, but at least alternative explanations. So there are things that his kids and friends can point to and say, see, this is why he's innocent. 

 And Peterson never confessed to previous crimes. He says he only took the Alford plea for this crime because he is/was completely exhausted and broke, and can't go through another trial again; he continues to maintain his innocence. I think it's important to note that several people, not just his defense attorney and kids, have looked at the evidence and said, yeah, there's at least some reasonable doubt here.

As far as I can tell none of this is going on with Josh.

And the M kids apparently are continuing to hang out with people who believe/know/have publicly stated that Josh is as guilty as hell. I mean, even most of the letters written to support Josh didn't try to argue that he's innocent.  So I think there's a fairly solid chance that at least one or two, and probably more, will not be sticking by him and/or will cut ties. And if Anna continues to refuse to accept reality, I suspect her relationship with at least some of her kids will become very strained indeed. 

Some good points, however the alcohol theory was all but disproven and the owl theory is totally out there. There certainly was enough evidence for a jury of 12 to convict him. As for not admitting guilt for causing the first death - he was never accused or suspected - until he was in the middle of another murder trial that was eerily similar. Peterson's kids are well educated adults. I for one will never believe they have no doubts at all about what happened in either death, but its certainly easier to lean heavily into the innocent camp - because that is where they want/need to lean.

Edited June 26, 2022 by GeeGolly

[jcbrown]

18 hours ago, Heathen said:

Most Duggar males wear oversized suits and look silly, but Smuggar FF managed to wear an undersized suit and look sillier. I hope the inseam chafed his junk. Bruising would be even nicer. 

Quoting you because I thought your comment was funny but also because it sets up my question. I was surprised to see Smuggar FF in street clothes. Is it typical for inmates to get to dress in their own clothes for transfer? I would think a prison uniform would make more sense.

[emmawoodhouse]

9 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

Quoting you because I thought your comment was funny but also because it sets up my question. I was surprised to see Smuggar FF in street clothes. Is it typical for inmates to get to dress in their own clothes for transfer? I would think a prison uniform would make more sense.

I guess they're allowed to take the clothes on their back with them? What else would the jail do with them? 

[ginger90]

25 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

Quoting you because I thought your comment was funny but also because it sets up my question. I was surprised to see Smuggar FF in street clothes. Is it typical for inmates to get to dress in their own clothes for transfer? I would think a prison uniform would make more sense.

I’m guessing because he left his county clothing at county,  changed into “street clothes ”, and then will be issued different prison clothing upon arrival wherever. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by ginger90

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I’m guessing because he left his county clothing at county,  changed into “street clothes ”, and then will be issued different prison clothing upon arrival wherever. 

That was my thinking too--Washington County doesn't want him taking their inmate threads with him. My understanding too is that suit will likely be what is waiting for him when he is finally released. 

[babyhouseman]

21 hours ago, Absolom said:

We need to pin this information.  

I can see why it's a common question. It was one of my first thoughts when I read he was found  guilty. You know they would keep conceiving babies. 

[Heathen]

5 hours ago, Zella said:

That was my thinking too--Washington County doesn't want him taking their inmate threads with him. My understanding too is that suit will likely be what is waiting for him when he is finally released. 

The mental image of twelve-years-incarcerated Smuggar squashed into his 2021 suit is hilarious. He better get a Costco-sized jar of Vaseline to help him squeeze into it. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Heathen
Pedantry

[Stevie Nicks]

On 6/25/2022 at 6:30 PM, CrazyInAlabama said:

Federal prisons do not have conjugal visits.   

Oh I know. But Anna probably doesn't, and or would go hoping there were such visits. She's not the sharpest tool in the shed. 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Some good points, however the alcohol theory was all but disproven and the owl theory is totally out there. There certainly was enough evidence for a jury of 12 to convict him. As for not admitting guilt for causing the first death - he was never accused or suspected - until he was in the middle of another murder trial that was eerily similar. Peterson's kids are well educated adults. I for one will never believe they have no doubts at all about what happened in either death, but its certainly easier to lean heavily into the innocent camp - because that is where they want/need to lean.

Oh, sure. As said, I think Peterson is probably guilty - though I wouldn't say that the alcohol theory was all but disproven.  What was proven, as far as that goes, is that one of the main witnesses for the prosecution was found guilty of manufacturing evidence against multiple people, and was found to have given "materially misleading" evidence at Peterson's trial, and outright lying on the witness stand.  So the Peterson kids have something solid to point to when they are arguing for Peterson's innocence - or need/want to believe in Peterson's innocent. Prosecutorial/witness misconduct. And there remains at least a possibility, however unlikely, that no crime occurred at all. 

This just isn't happening in Josh's case. No one, not even Anna, is trying to argue that a crime wasn't committed here, or that any of the evidence was manufactured. Arguing that someone else did it, sure, but not that a crime was committed. And no one is arguing that Josh didn't confess to molesting his sisters, or that his sisters were lying. Arguing about how serious it was or whether or not In Touch should have been allowed to see the police reports, sure. But not that Josh confessed. That's on record.

So again, I don't think the comparison works.

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

Oh, sure. As said, I think Peterson is probably guilty - though I wouldn't say that the alcohol theory was all but disproven.  What was proven, as far as that goes, is that one of the main witnesses for the prosecution was found guilty of manufacturing evidence against multiple people, and was found to have given "materially misleading" evidence at Peterson's trial, and outright lying on the witness stand.  So the Peterson kids have something solid to point to when they are arguing for Peterson's innocence - or need/want to believe in Peterson's innocent. Prosecutorial/witness misconduct. And there remains at least a possibility, however unlikely, that no crime occurred at all. 

This just isn't happening in Josh's case. No one, not even Anna, is trying to argue that a crime wasn't committed here, or that any of the evidence was manufactured. Arguing that someone else did it, sure, but not that a crime was committed. And no one is arguing that Josh didn't confess to molesting his sisters, or that his sisters were lying. Arguing about how serious it was or whether or not In Touch should have been allowed to see the police reports, sure. But not that Josh confessed. That's on record.

So again, I don't think the comparison works.

Josh was not on trial for molesting his sisters. All that was well known long before the trial, so I'm not sure why that keeps coming up.

Anna (and the kids when they're older) can believe Josh was going for some raunchy porn and ended up with CSA that he never looked at. Anna can believe the CSA was remotely put there. Anna can believe someone else accessed the CSA on the FF's computer. 

Anna and her kids are naïve and sheltered, the Peterson kids are not. They all have vested interests in believing their husband/dad is innocent.

I think the comparison is just fine. And speaking of Petersons - Scott's family also think he is innocent. Its not really a hard concept to grasp - family members often think loved ones are innocent in spite of guilty verdicts and mountains of evidence.

Anna thinks Josh is innocent and I don't see why her kids will hate/blame her for that when they're older. Which was the whole point of my original post.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Anna's problem is that unless she follows the JB line of Josh's innocence, that she would be risking everything for herself and the children.    It's not as if she has anywhere to go, or a source of income for seven kids.   If she accepted his guilt, then she would also have to admit she had seven kids with a monster who preys on children, and will never change either.   

[GeeGolly]

I was thinking about the timing of Anna's road trip. If she was driving to see Josh, and I think she was, she somehow knew before 4am, when the transfer began. How could she know? I highly doubt inmates have access to phones after they find out and I doubt inmates are told hours in advance of when they're moving, allowing them to get another inmate to share the info. This leaves my speculative mind to think either the FF had already schmoozed a jail employee or the Duggars know someone who has access to transfer info.

Of course this could all be moot because Anna actually does have a friend... naw, that's even less plausible.

[merylinkid]

I doubt FF has schmoozed a jail employee.   he's not as smooth and charming as he thinks he is.  Jail employees deal with more manipulative people than him every day.   

As for the Duggars having inside information, they aren't as well connected as they like to think they are.

It most likely, he was moved ThEN the BOP website oops County Roster ( Thanks @ginger90) was updated after his move.   So there was a lag time where he could contact Anna AFTER he arrived.   Because as annoying as he probably finds her stage 10 clinginess, she does make sure his commisary account is topped up and willingly listens to any whining he does about how UNFAIR all this is.   What will be interesting is if JB is on the approved visitor's list.

Edited June 27, 2022 by merylinkid

[ginger90]

1 minute ago, merylinkid said:

It most likely, he was moved ThEN the BOP website was updated after his move. 

Just wanted to clarify, The BOP site wasn’t updated , it still reads the same, “Not in BOP custody”. It was the county roster that was updated.

[ginger90]

Considering the possible routes the Marshals could be on, no matter where a transfer is to, it could takes days to arrive.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

I doubt FF has schmoozed a jail employee.   he's not as smooth and charming as he thinks he is.  Jail employees deal with more manipulative people than him every day.   

As for the Duggars having inside information, they aren't as well connected as they like to think they are.

It most likely, he was moved ThEN the BOP website oops County Roster ( Thanks @ginger90) was updated after his move.   So there was a lag time where he could contact Anna AFTER he arrived.   Because as annoying as he probably finds her stage 10 clinginess, she does make sure his commisary account is topped up and willingly listens to any whining he does about how UNFAIR all this is.   What will be interesting is if JB is on the approved visitor's list.

That doesn't fit with the timeline though.

I've read at least one account of Josh being liked by a reporter, who was very surprised at his charm. The Duggars don't have to be "well connected" to know one person within the system.

But anyway its all speculation.

[GeeGolly]

Just now, CherryBelly said:

What timeline? 

Josh is on camera leaving a jail facility at sometime around 4am.

[Ljohnson1987]

The biggest difference between Peterson and Smugs... Is that Smugs blaming what he did on an owl is more ridiculous than Peterson doing so. 

[Ljohnson1987]

I wonder if the family is allowed (Or requested) to check out where Smugs is going. They have to make sure it's fit for their king of a son/husband. Ugh! 

[GeeGolly]

11 minutes ago, CherryBelly said:

Yep. And Anna posted about her road trip the morning of the day before. So what's the theory?

I posted my theory. I was commenting on another one that said he contacted Anna after he arrived. Anna was already on the road by then.

[Showthyme]

Will Anna blame Jim Bob and Michelle as time passes and the support starts to erode?  Right now, Anna needs the financial and other help from her in-laws, but will she begin to resent them for it? They didn't create the monster but provided an environment for sexual abuse to happen and then tried to cover it up or dismiss it.

It is so new that they may all be hoping for Josh to win on appeal, but that is highly unlikely. How do they get support from their community? Isn't anyone sitting in the pews feeling total disgust? How do churches still host this family and get a love offering towards their support? How much money does Jim Bob have that will allow him to support Anna and her children?

I still cannot get over Michelle thinking that Josh has a good heart. Is that all that is required? That woman is crazy.

At least one of Anna's children will question her one day. I see a very fragmented family in their future. 

[Natalie68]

On 6/24/2022 at 10:39 PM, quarks said:

And not to necessarily sound like a broken record here, but I also don't think Anna can make a lot of money with a tell-all in the current publishing environment. Maybe enough money to support herself and the kids for a couple of years, but that's very optimistic. 

Probably not.  But, nothing preventing her from getting a job at Chick fil A during the day and Walmart at night.  She has plenty of babysitters around.  

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Showthyme said:

Will Anna blame Jim Bob and Michelle as time passes and the support starts to erode?  Right now, Anna needs the financial and other help from her in-laws, but will she begin to resent them for it? They didn't create the monster but provided an environment for sexual abuse to happen and then tried to cover it up or dismiss it.

I do not see Anna ever blaming JB & Michelle. JB is keeping her comfortable and Michelle may be one of her few adult interactions on the regular.

I see her having resentment towards her in-laws who have condemned Josh, and jealousy as they have children, partners, live their lives, and she is constantly reminded she is alone with seven children to care for. When all of the hoopla dies down, Anna still has to care for her children, and the rest of the Duggar clan will be living their lives. Every wedding and new baby, every holiday party will remind her that she is "single" for the next decade.

I would love to be fly on the wall when Josh gets out, and has to "come home". He is going to be a very different person, meaning that I don't think he will have any interest in "pretending" with Anna any more, which is going to cause another blow up. Unless in the thick of raising her kids she wises up (not saying that is likely).

[GeeGolly]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I do not see Anna ever blaming JB & Michelle. JB is keeping her comfortable and Michelle may be one of her few adult interactions on the regular.

I see her having resentment towards her in-laws who have condemned Josh, and jealousy as they have children, partners, live their lives, and she is constantly reminded she is alone with seven children to care for. When all of the hoopla dies down, Anna still has to care for her children, and the rest of the Duggar clan will be living their lives. Every wedding and new baby, every holiday party will remind her that she is "single" for the next decade.

I would love to be fly on the wall when Josh gets out, and has to "come home". He is going to be a very different person, meaning that I don't think he will have any interest in "pretending" with Anna any more, which is going to cause another blow up. Unless in the thick of raising her kids she wises up (not saying that is likely).

I agree.

And Josh will be a different person than he was, but other than hiding the porn (& worse), I don't think he was pretending. With that said, I don't think he was genuine either, but Josh has lived his schtick for so long it is part of who he is. Likely its his actual comfort zone because he can throw out unfelt religious bullshit with ease.

[Tikichick]

5 hours ago, CherryBelly said:

Even Josh wouldn't know. There is tight, tight security around inmates moving for obvious reason. That's why he was moved at 4am on 24th June, so the inmate just gets woken early and told to pack his stuff. He wouldn't know where he was going till he got there.

Anna's Road trip post was at 8.30ish the morning of the 23rd, the day before.

I don't think the two are connected. Even in the very, very unlikely case that Anna was tipped off by a corrupt officer, it would make no sense that she'd set off almost 24 hrs before Josh was transferred.

"Uh, that doesn't work for me, I'm on Duggar time."   ~ Inmate #4271569    6/24/22 @ 0400 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

Don’t know if the BOP website has been updated yet, but that certainly doesn’t mean he isn’t in their custody. When I worked in inmate records for a state prison, I handled the the new inmates or new commits.  It takes a little time to get them fully into the system with a number, bed assignment, updated wrap sheet and release date.  Time computation can be tedious and is dependent upon receiving accurate and updated court minutes.  It can take a week or so to get all of that squared away.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Ijustwantsomechips

[Cinnabon]

7 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Because as annoying as he probably finds her stage 10 clinginess, she does make sure his commisary account is topped up

Do you think Anna is actually the one to do this? Or does Jb to retain control?

[Quilt Fairy]

Quote

Josh was not on trial for molesting his sisters. All that was well known long before the trial, so I'm not sure why that keeps coming up.

It comes up because it was introduced at the trial to show a pattern of abuse.  It likely had a strong effect on the jury in convicting him and provided an enhancement to allow the judge to give him a longer sentence and 20 years of post-release supervision. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Quilt Fairy

[dariafan]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:47 PM, libgirl2 said:

I have a feeling that is what she is going to do.  

That was my first thought.   Pay no attention to the rules.  

[Gemma Violet]

Josh is now in Seagoville, TX:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSupfSV2WdI

This is the local news as of a few minutes ago.  They say they talked to BOP.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Gemma Violet

[cmr2014]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree.

And Josh will be a different person than he was, but other than hiding the porn (& worse), I don't think he was pretending. With that said, I don't think he was genuine either, but Josh has lived his schtick for so long it is part of who he is. Likely its his actual comfort zone because he can throw out unfelt religious bullshit with ease.

I kind of think of Josh as being like some of the early rock starts (like Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard) minus the talent. They had a complicated relationship with religion being both extremely devout believers and alternately hedonistic rebels.

My take on Josh has always been that he thinks he's too cool for school. In the early specials he always gave off the vibe to me that he was in on the joke, and that he believed that his parents were complete rubes. I think he swings between believing that he's a cool, modern guy who likes sex and porn, and being a devout believer in the real Jesus. I don't think he's ever going to completely fall into one camp ot the other.

[GeeGolly]

7 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I kind of think of Josh as being like some of the early rock starts (like Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard) minus the talent. They had a complicated relationship with religion being both extremely devout believers and alternately hedonistic rebels.

My take on Josh has always been that he thinks he's too cool for school. In the early specials he always gave off the vibe to me that he was in on the joke, and that he believed that his parents were complete rubes. I think he swings between believing that he's a cool, modern guy who likes sex and porn, and being a devout believer in the real Jesus. I don't think he's ever going to completely fall into one camp ot the other.

Great description. And throw in a pesky little thing called antisocial personality disorder and we get the full picture of why 'both sides' of Josh are so fucked up.

[CrazyInAlabama]

12 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Since his arrest he's lived elsewhere - the Rebers, jail and now he's on his way to serve 10 years in prison. How has Anna not protected them?

He lived at home for years.  He always had access to kids in the family, at church and everywhere else.   When Anna went to visit with him at the Rebers, did she leave the kids home?  No one in that family will ever protect children.  

Edited June 28, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, cmr2014 said:

I kind of think of Josh as being like some of the early rock starts (like Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard) minus the talent. They had a complicated relationship with religion being both extremely devout believers and alternately hedonistic rebels.

My take on Josh has always been that he thinks he's too cool for school. In the early specials he always gave off the vibe to me that he was in on the joke, and that he believed that his parents were complete rubes. I think he swings between believing that he's a cool, modern guy who likes sex and porn, and being a devout believer in the real Jesus. I don't think he's ever going to completely fall into one camp ot the other.

What those other guys didn’t do was try to force their beliefs on others, IIRC.

Oh - and they were extremely talented. Unlike Josh. 🤣

Edited June 28, 2022 by Cinnabon

[lovesnark]

12 hours ago, CherryBelly said:

Even Josh wouldn't know. There is tight, tight security around inmates moving for obvious reason. That's why he was moved at 4am on 24th June, so the inmate just gets woken early and told to pack his stuff. He wouldn't know where he was going till he got there.

Anna's Road trip post was at 8.30ish the morning of the 23rd, the day before.

I don't think the two are connected. Even in the very, very unlikely case that Anna was tipped off by a corrupt officer, it would make no sense that she'd set off almost 24 hrs before Josh was transferred.

Also, the corrections officers don't know when inmates are going to be moved until it happens. It's all done this way to keep everyone safe and lessen the chance of a hijack situation.

[awaken]

I’ve learned more about prison and how this all works, than ever before, from this thread. 

[Future Cat Lady]

4 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I kind of think of Josh as being like some of the early rock starts (like Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard) minus the talent. They had a complicated relationship with religion being both extremely devout believers and alternately hedonistic rebels.

My take on Josh has always been that he thinks he's too cool for school. In the early specials he always gave off the vibe to me that he was in on the joke, and that he believed that his parents were complete rubes. I think he swings between believing that he's a cool, modern guy who likes sex and porn, and being a devout believer in the real Jesus. I don't think he's ever going to completely fall into one camp ot the other.

I don’t doubt that Josh is Christian and believes in Jesus. I just don’t think he was into the whole Gothard/quiverfull/extremist aspects of his parents beliefs. I think he just wanted to live like a very conservative Christian. The ones who lives just like everyone else but still have horrible beliefs on politics and social issues and are trying to impose them on everyone else. It’s still borders on extremism but it’s not as apparent.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Future Cat Lady

[the-grey-lady]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:14 PM, merylinkid said:

Because she has nothing to do but be Josh's wife.   

Yeah. It's not like she has a child to raise...or seven. 

(All sarcasm directed at Anna, not at the OP.)

[ginger90]

He’s BOP official: (Travel time from the family  “big house” 5 hr 32 min (355.1 mi) )

Edited June 28, 2022 by ginger90

[ozziemom]

Maybe Anna took a chance Josh was being moved to Texas and headed to see Prissy. We know some of the M’s went to VBS last year at TFDW’s church, so maybe they’re doing that again too. 

[MsJamieDornan]

Seagoville has a female warden. JBoobs head will explode !😂

[kaleidoscope]

I see Seagoville is low security with campus-like grounds.  Is this a Club Fed?  How close is it to Pris and David?

Edited June 28, 2022 by kaleidoscope

[Zella]

I've heard some of the units there don't have air conditioning, and given Texas summers, that does not read as Club Fed to me. 

[SMama]

I expected medium security for FF. He just keeps dodging hard punishment.  

[anyasmom]

I see in their visiting policies that visitors and prisoners have to wear masks during visits.  I wonder how that will go over?  And there are restrictions on kids visiting; if they are 4 and under they have to stay on the adult's lap throughout the visit.  I hope her kids can behave that long.

[SMama]

1 minute ago, anyasmom said:

I see in their visiting policies that visitors and prisoners have to wear masks during visits.  I wonder how that will go over?  And there are restrictions on kids visiting; if they are 4 and under they have to stay on the adult's lap throughout the visit.  I hope her kids can behave that long.

As someone else mentioned, the M kids are not feral like the younger Duggars were.