S10.E11: Andi Then We Came To The End/S10.E12: After The Final Rose

[Soobs]

Maybe the fantasy suite was the tie breaker moment for her. Weird that Josh kept saying he'd waited 29 years for her. Does that mean he was looking for a wife in kindergarten?

[ribboninthesky1]

And I'd still like to hear her rationalization for sending Chris home before the Fantasy Suite, but deciding to go all the way with Nick.  I doubt that she'll ever admit that she's shallow and narcissistic enough to have wanted to bask in Nick's borderline-creepy adulation, and possibly keep him around as a safety-pick in case Josh came to his senses.

 

I haven't watched the episode (and don't think I will since Andi picking Josh was what I expected), but I think you nailed it.  There was discussion in earlier threads about Andi reveling in romantic aggression.  At least, until she didn't, which I maintain started in Belgium.  Her facial expressions when Nick was so confident in them, her feelings for him, them getting married, was every.thing.  How Nick didn't pick up on it confuses me, but blah blah romantic bubblecakes. I actually thought his nervous nelly, incoherent behavior from 2 episodes ago was a sign that he wasn't as confident as he was earlier in the season, and could sense the writing on the wall.  But I guess not? Can't say I feel sympathy for the man, since he chose to pretend Andi wasn't dating other men simultaneously, which could very well include having sex with them.  I said after the Belgium date that he was too cocksure, and needed to remember that.  Oh well. 

 

In any case, reading about Andi being put on blast given her ridiculous final argument with Juan Pablo makes me feel all warm and tingly.  She was so self-righteous with the guy; reading about the Nick schadenfreude is just...wow.  Mind you, I don't have a problem with her choosing Josh, and if I hadn't watched Andi go off on Juan Pablo for no legitimate reason (wait...it was her Bachelorette audition), I'd probably think less of Nick.  But as it stands, I'm highly amused.

 

Now off to google the plane video. I'm curious about what was said in it.

 

Question: are Andi and Josh still engaged?

 

If Chris (Soules) is the Bachelor, all I can think is: Well-played, dude.

[Rhondinella]

I don't understand why some lead who realizes pretty early on who they will pick doesn't make a deal with one of the contestants who knows already that he/she is not "into" the lead.  The contestant would agree to play along like they are in love and want to be together, only to be dumped in the F2, with the strict understanding that there would be no sex in the FS.  Occasional kissing on camera would be allowed but only because it would be hard to sell otherwise. That way the contestant gets maximum screen time (assuming that's mostly what he/she is there for in the first place), the lead gets the person he/she wants, and no one ends up getting hurt.

 

Actually, as I'm typing that I have a bell going off in the back of my head that this may have (allegedly) happened a number of seasons ago, but I can't remember which one it was or what the evidence for it was.  (I think it was a Bachelor season, but I might be wrong).  Maybe someone else knows what I'm babbling about.

 

Question: are Andi and Josh still engaged?

 

 

According to RS, yes.  For now.  And I will say that as final couples on the AFTR go they do seem pretty happy together.  The fact that they are already talking wedding dates is perhaps a good sign.  I mean, I'm not holding my breath or anything.  Also, wasn't tonight's AFTR live?  Meaning they were still engaged (or at least pretending to be) just a couple hours ago in real time.

[backformore]

Nick being so hurt, and so open about his feelings, makes me hate this whole "process".  On their last date, he talked about feeling confident, Andi re-assured him, saying "You should be confident."  She did everything to lead him to believe he was "the one".

 

Of course, he was confused by her encouraging him all the way up to the end, then saying "yeah, you're not the one."  Andi, at the end, talking to Nick, was exactly like the "stop saying OK, it's not OK" Andi we saw with Juan Pablo.  She was PISSED.  Because, up until now, she has been the pretty princess who can do no wrong.  She's been surrounded by guys who tell her she's the most beautiful creature to ever walk the earth.  and when she cuts them loose, one by one, they wish her well, and walk away defeated, wondering what they did to displease her.

 

Then Nick calls her out on her bullshit.  He stepped out of line,  and she no longer has the option of shutting him up by just not giving him a rose. She has to deal with it - with how she led him on, how she was in love with Josh all along but let Nick think she loved him.  And she is pissed at Nick the way she was pissed at Juan Pablo.  Juan Pablo, who did pretty much what Andi ended up doing - leading someone on, letting them fall in love, acting like it meant something, then revealing that it didn't. 

[truthaboutluv]

Juan Pablo, who did pretty much what Andi ended up doing - leading someone on, letting them fall in love, acting like it meant something, then revealing that it didn't.

 

 

But funny enough, say what you will about Juan Pablo, I don't think he in any way led Andi on the way she did with Nick. He liked her well enough and they had some fun times but Juan Pablo as far as I'm concerned never gave the impression he was anywhere close to love with any of these women. And as much as he liked Andi, he was far more focused and into Sharleen, until she left, Claire and Nikki. I mean that's why they had the infamous "default - I never said default" conversation because according to Andi, he made it clear in the FS that she wasn't exactly a first choice to make it that far. 

[Armchair Critic]

And she is pissed at Nick the way she was pissed at Juan Pablo.

 

She was pissed at Eric too, but she has whitewashed that because it's not good form to speak ill of the dead.

[Shugardrawers]

Trista did say after the fact that she only slept with ONE  of her F2 and that was Ryan.  Very telling. I'm fairly sure by that point the lead knows who they are going to pick and to sleep with anyone else is just plain leading them on.  Bad form.

I meant to say only ONE of her Fantasy Suite dates.  That was Ryan.

[greyhorse]

What was Nick's end game here?  Yeah, we get it, he's got a broken heart.  But did he really think he was going to change Andi's mind?  Is she going to break up with Josh simply because Nick feels bad and really is still in love?  Sheesh.  Guy needs to man up and stop acting so pathetic.  It's a show.  Where there is ONE winner.  Who was not Nick.  What is so hard to understand? 

 

Had Nick played it right, he could have been the wounded finalist who shakes it off and then he could have had a shot at 25 gorgeous women.  But instead, he's going to continue to mope in misery and find it really difficult to attract somebody new.

[Canada]

Ugh, Andi and Josh are just gross and they deserve each other.  I'm glad she didn't choose Nick.  He deserves so much better than Grumpy Cat.  I don't think she really gives a shit about either of the guys.  I think she's all about making herself famous.  I hope Josh dumps her ass and leaves her alone.  And then I hope she gets the Juan Pablo treatment and I never have to see her face on my TV again.

[chocolatine]

Did I mis-hear, or did Andi's [dad] actually say that his "job" was to marry off his daughters?

 

 

You didn't mishear. He said something to the effect that now that his other daughter is "taken care of", his "only job" is Andi. Because single women are incapable of taking care of themselves, natch!

 

I don't normally like guys who kiss (or more) and tell, but so many people have been so coy about what goes on in the FS that I'm glad someone finally told it like it was. Andi, you don't get "privacy" after signing up for this show.

 

Grumpy Cat!!! I'm not even a cat person, but she is just too cute. The sex callout and Grumpy Cat were the most exciting things to happen on this show in a really long time.

[Irritable]

I knew Nick was working up the courage to spill the beans...something about the way he kept on with the "I don't know, you know?  I just, you know, you know, I don't know, I'm nervous, you know?" for so excruciatingly long that I finally realized he was at first going to find out if she read his letter, and if so, what she had to say about it (which was nothing), then more waiting to see if she was going to throw him any kind of a bone whatsoever on that stage, and when he was finally positive that she was not going to give him any of what he wanted, he announced that she slept with him, just as he had planned.  It seemed very calculated to me.  Even if Andi had agreed to meet with him before tonight so that he could say, "you know, I don't know, you know?" to her privately for an hour, it's customary for the No. 2 person to appear on ATFR for the "closure" confrontation, so I think that he would have done this to her no matter what.  Well, unless she pulled a Mesnick and promised to dump Josh and marry Nick...anything less than that and he was going to let the information fly.  Note that when Chris asked him what he missed most about Andi he said it was the way she made him feel.  Telling, that.  Go see a counselor, Nick.

 

I don't know how Andi managed to continue conversing with Chris once Grumpy Cat was placed in her arms.  I would have been unable to focus on anything else, because Grumpy Cat rules.  I appreciated that Josh seemed to like her, and petted her.  The only time I've seen a more docile feline was when my cat had surgery and it took a while for her to recover fully from the anesthesia - I could pick up her body and her legs would just swing and dangle.  Hopefully GC is just naturally mellow, and not constantly sedated. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Irritable

[TiredMe]

Still the next morning I cannot believe Nicks lack of class. The entire premise of this show is leading someone on! So acting all butt hurt months later about it in the manner he did was sad and pathetic. His lack of class should really turn off the ladies as well as his stalker, sad sack tendencies. Honestly the entire thing just grossed me out.

[CindyBee]

Still the next morning I cannot believe Nicks lack of class. The entire premise of this show is leading someone on! So acting all butt hurt months later about it in the manner he did was sad and pathetic. His lack of class should really turn off the ladies as well as his stalker, sad sack tendencies. Honestly the entire thing just grossed me out.

 

I still can't believe Nick did that either.  Did he think she was going to take off her ring and say "oh I made a mistake, lets get back together".   No, he wanted to mare sure he hurt Andi and Josh and that is just all kinds of wrong.   Grow up Nick.  And good luck to the next girl he is with.  

 

At the watching party I was at last night, the reaction to Andi and especially Josh was very favorable.   We were kinda disapointed that he ended up Andi's guy as we all want him to be the next Bachelor! Oh well, best of luck to Andi and Josh as they truly begin their relationship.  

[alexa]

I didn't like Nick at first, but grew to like him more as it came down to him and Josh.  I still think Josh isn't all there, and though I think they look happy now, I just feel like he won't be enough for her long term when her thinking brain resurfaces.

 

As for Nick, I think he handled it all fine.  I think he was sad and confused, and was just dealing with his emotions.  I see no issue with him trying to talk to her previous to the live show, and in fact had Andi let him talk to her more privately, perhaps he wouldn't have outed her on having sex.  I am glad he mentioned it on the live show, as it was probably one of the main factors that led to his confusion.  As others have said she wasn't required to have sex with both guys, and she claimed to not be in love with Nick as if she knew that fairly early on....thus she didn't need to lead him on when he was clear about his feelings.  I think he is better off without her, but I am glad he was okay with expressing how he felt about it all.  Andi can't have it both ways...just because she is the lead and in the power position, you can't expect everyone to fall at your feet to show how much they love you, but then for them not be hurt when you lead them on.  Yes, this show is all about doing that, but I would agree with Nick that she took it too far.

[bantering]

Would the show have goaded Nick into mentioning they had sex?

 

I guess no one can really answer the question except Nick himself, but I couldn't help but wonder.

[Alapaki]

I'm okay with what Nick did because of who Andi is and who she made herself out to be after her FS with Juan Pablo.

Just one morning-after question though. Nick said he "loved" Andi in a way he'd never loved a woman before. And then he referred to the FS as "fiancé stuff". Is that what the kids are calling anal these days?

[seacliffsal]

I just find Andi to be hypocritical.  She HAD to storm in to see Juan Pablo in order to tell him how she felt about being led on and that he shouldn't have done that.  Yet, when Nick asked for the same opportunity, she said no until she had to see him on LIVE television.  Then she displays righteous indignation and tells Nick how much respect she showed by allowing him to go home before proposing.  I agree with Nick, from her actions and words he did seem to be the one for her.  He didn't know that she looked at Josh differently, or acted differently around him.  As for revealing they had sex in the FS?  Don't have sex in the FS if you don't want anyone to know or think you did.  When all other aspects of a relationship are there for public view, how is it possible to even say 'private things should remain private...?"

 

Anyway, what an ending to the season!  I hope Nick finds someone who truly loves him.  And, even though I just called Andi a hypocrite, I really do hope that she and Josh are happy. 

[StatMom]

And then he referred to the FS as "fiancé stuff". Is that what the kids are calling anal these days?

 

When he first mentioned the "fiancé stuff", I too wondered what that was about, that it could be some activity besides "regular" sex. But now I'm guessing he was just referring to having "made love" given that that's what he mentioned later.

[truthaboutluv]

Would the show have goaded Nick into mentioning they had sex?

 

 

A tweet from Nikki (Juan Pablo's pick) certainly seemed to indicate she thought so. And she basically called the show's producers trash in the tweet. Not sure whether he was goaded into it by the producers but as I said last night, I do think there was something fishy with all of this and I just have this gut feeling it had to do with his accidentally spoiling the ending of the season but whatever it is what it is.

 

Also, apparently there was some misunderstanding on the whole Andi/Josh vacation thing. Nick didn't go down there to try to speak to her, at least that's not how I understood it watching later. Apparently what was said is that the first time he contacted CH and the show to try to arrange a meeting with Andi, it was while she was vacationing in Mexico with Josh. I assume the producers contacted her and let her know and she declined meeting with him. 

 

Still the next morning I cannot believe Nicks lack of class. The entire premise of this show is leading someone on!

 

 

As many noted, lead someone on sure, but there is nowhere as far I as know, where it says to bang them when you know you're for all intents and purposes ready to accept an engagement ring from another guy in a week. Nobody forced Andi to have sex with Nick and no matter what anyone thinks of his stating that in public, he was absolutely correct in my opinion in telling her she didn't have to take it that far. Also, this goes in line with what others have said about double standards - so Nick is classless for daring to publicly admit he and Andi had sex in the hotel suite but what does that make Andi who was sitting there acting like frankly she never had any real feelings for Nick, talking about how she knew for so long Josh was her "great" love and yet still had sex with Nick only what, a day or two before she had sex with Josh.

 

Are we not allowed to call that shady and straight up nasty or will that be considered "slut shaming". Frankly I find that just as gross as some consider Nick stating it happened. Andi was fine to go on national television and put her "relationship" on display, yet once something that effectively destroyed the perfect crown she's perched on her head was stated, it was suddenly classless, gross and horrible? Well in my opinion it was classless, gross and horrible of her to do it.

 

Also, as frankly painful as that whole scene was to watch, I personally disagree that Nick aimed right for revealing the sex immediately. Like I said last night, Andi walked out of there cold, dismissive and frankly looking like she loathed Nick. And her responses and demeanor in those first few minutes matched that. The way she coldly said yes, she read the letter and said nothing more, like it was some passing thought, then almost aggressively and defensively said that she never loved him period and that's why she never told him. Andi in those first few minutes came there acting like any confusion, feelings Nick might have had were through no fault of hers. She really tried to pretend she didn't lead him on which was bullshit. And after listening to her make those dismissive statements, was when he finally told her well if you felt all this, why the hell did you sleep with me.

 

And her demeanor quickly shifted slightly after that. She was still defensive, probably fuming even more but all of a sudden she started talking about how much she really did care for him and the things said were real or whatever bull she was spilling. Because once he put that truth out there, she was basically stuck with letting viewers think one or two things - either she had no real major feelings for this guy and knew it and knew Josh was her pick long before the finale but still had sex with him which just makes her seem very shady or she truly was torn in some way and her sleeping with him was real. 

 

Meanwhile, as if this season hasn't been suspect enough, apparently she and Josh copped to "meeting" before the show started filming but "clarified" that Josh saw her at a club but didn't approach her because he was already in casting for the season and she claims she never saw him because if she did, she would have dropped out of the show because after all, the minute she laid eyes on him she knew he was it for her. I remember all the rumors before the season started that Josh was a plant and that basically Andi met him after she had already agreed to do the show but no way was she passing up her opportunity to be the Bachelorette. So he got cast and pretty much ensured the show that they'd get a couple at the end of the season. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Alapaki]

Would the show have goaded Nick into mentioning they had sex?

I guess no one can really answer the question except Nick himself, but I couldn't help but wonder.

 

 

I'm willing to believe that most of that whole stalker-storyline was producer driven.  Just another attempt to inject some drama into what was probably an uber-meh season (from an editing, narrative perspective).  I wouldn't be surprised if statements start to leak out from other contestants about how obvious it was that she was picking Josh from very early on, and the editors had to work overtime to conceal that.

 

I DO believe that Nick showed up prepared to spill the beans (ugh, NO pun intended) about the FS.  He first made mention of "what they don't show".  

 

I don't know whether Andi could have said anything to forestall him saying it outright, though.

 

Ultimately, I think the honest answer to sex-in-the-FS would've been "look, we're both adults, on a vacation, let's have a little no-strings fun."

 

And, while I get that there's still a societal double-standard that inhibits women from acknowledging that for fear of being labeled some pretty ugly things, I have no sympathy for Andi in this situation.  She's the one who, with Juan Pablo, turned the FS into some Fortress of Seriousness where you're supposed to discuss your thoughts on politics, and religion and ask-about-mememememememememememe.

 

The irony is that Juan Pablo used the FS for sex specifically because he had no intention of picking Andi and just wanted to have fun (that, and he apparently has no fucks to give in life generally.  Ess okay?).  Andi used the FS for sex with Nick despite the fact that she had no intention of picking him.

 

For that matter, I seriously doubt that Andi and Josh spent their FS time talking.  I think they humped their brains out, and probably laughed about what a dork Nick was.

 

And I'm fine with that too.  In real life you can do that consequence-free.  But she chose to put herself in a situation where, by definition, you're required to confront the consequences of your decisions.  And Andi Dorfman is perhaps the person least capable of, or willing to, honestly confront her own behavior.  

[Lamb18]

GRUMPY CAT for next Bachelor (or Bachelorette)!!

 

Nick really didn't stalk Andi.  He tried twice to see her and he made contact through production.  Also, I doubt he paid for his plane ticket to California - I'm sure the show paid for that.  If he was a real stalker, he would have been in Mexico and he definitely would have been in Atlanta, sitting in his car in front of her house.  Also he wouldn't have said Josh was a great guy with a big heart if he was a true stalker.  If he was a stalker, he would see Josh as an evil deceiver who doesn't really love Andi and that it was his (Nick's) responsibility to rescue her from wicked satanic Josh.

 

I really felt his pain.  He was really in love with her, way more than he was in love with being on TV.  I think if she had talked with him before the show, he could have asked his questions.  But I doubt production would have let that happen, even if Andi was OK with it, because of spoiler opportunity.  Regarding the Fantasy Suite, I don't have a big issue with Nick's stating they had sex because the whole Fantasy Suite stuff on the show gives the viewers reason to believe that they did have sex.  It's all on TV, in public.  She gave him the Fantasy Suite card in front of the cameras.  I guess I find it weird that if you are so in love with someone that you plan to marry him or her, you'd be willing to have sex with someone else just a few days before the marriage proposal.  I felt Nick's question was a question anyone would have asked: why did you have sex with me if you were in love with someone else? 

 

I hope Nick wasn't making a Bachelor audition speech when he talked about how he the show made it possible for him to fall in love again.  Maybe he was paid to work that line in.  Grumpy Cat was entertaining.  It wasn't entertaining to see a guy in agony.

[Lovecat]

When he called her out, she should have said, the fact that you just did that proves I made the right decision. Interview over. That would have been awesome.

Especially if he had done a mic drop before he walked off stage.

[Pollock]

Meanwhile, as if this season hasn't been suspect enough, apparently she and Josh copped to "meeting" before the show started filming but "clarified" that Josh saw her at a club but didn't approach her because he was already in casting for the season and she claims she never saw him because if she did, she would have dropped out of the show because after all, the minute she laid eyes on him she knew he was it for her. I remember all the rumors before the season started that Josh was a plant and that basically Andi met him after she had already agreed to do the show but no way was she passing up her opportunity to be the Bachelorette. So he got cast and pretty much ensured the show that they'd get a couple at the end of the season. 

Where did you read that please ? I ask, shamefully hungry for gossip.

[Crumpet]

Arie freaking showed up at Emily's house after her season ended, that's way more stalker-ish than trying to talk to Andi on the phone or flying to a television show taping to see her. And I liked Arie! 

 

 

Also, as frankly painful as that whole scene was to watch, I personally disagree that Nick aimed right for revealing the sex immediately. Like I said last night, Andi walked out of there cold, dismissive and frankly looking like she loathed Nick.

 

He was definitely hedging for awhile (to the point where I was saying, out loud, OH JUST SAY YOU HAD SEX!), and I also think he just wanted some type of acknowledgement that Andi did have feelings for him at some point. She wasn't giving in at all, so that's when he dropped the bomb. Now I know a lot of revisionist history goes on after every season, but I couldn't believe Andi was denying pretty much everything (and considering that Josh is good at revisionist history too, maybe they will make it after all) because, I mean, hello. They were hot and heavy on some dates. When he "suprised" her she could have told him to go back to his room. 

[emjohnson03]

I still think alot of what Nick said was "producer driven." While I do think he wanted closure, he wanted to do it private and because producers kept telling him to wait, because honestly I do think Andi would have spoken to him off camera, he had no choice but to just put it out there.

 

Was it in poor taste sure. But I do think it was the producers way of getting back to him for the whole airplane video. The minute it got out they knew they were screwed in some respects (not all because people still thought it was a fake out, and I say really??) but it was a way for them to say, "we didn't like what you did so you have to come out and say it on tv..." He really didn't have to but I'm sure they made it seem like a good idea or at least fair. I also think them publishing the letter on facebook was in total poor taste and I think they would have anyways but there's no limits to where they would go. You sign your life away sooo....this is kinda of what you get.

 

Oh and I would love to know how obvious it was that she was choosing Josh. Those guys HAD to have known, especially early on. Andi may be good at playing a few but I don't see her being able to keep it up for 2 months. Did she really feel for Nick? I think so but she knew she wasn't feeling him like Josh. The minute Josh walked out of the limo everything was over. I do think it's funny they never did connect before the show. Though wouldn't surprise me if they did and it just never got to that point.

 

As to if they will last? Who knows but I do see it working only because they are so close. No long distance is the key. I can see it being a success. 

[FireFoxy]

Wow what an AFTR! I know many are saying Nick is an ass for spilling the beans but let's be honest, if Nick were a woman and had done it, I am sure we would be hearing a lot of sympathy for the situation. What Andi did was disgusting. Not only did she lead him on, she full well knew he is emotionally fragile and how much he really did care for her and still went ahead and did that. The way she was talking to him during their LCD gave me the impression that she would pick him. I was spoiled and I was still in disbelief she was saying those things. Telling him he had nothing to worry about, how she wished she could say things back, I'm sorry but if you are in that situation you interpret those words as being that you are the one. Brad told DeAnna exactly that and then didn't pick her and got so much hate for it. And if she knew it was Josh from day 1 as she told him, she is an even bigger bitch for doing that. 

 

I wonder how Josh feels knowing for sure Andi screwed another guy while she also screwed him and then claimed to have known it was him from the get go. Trista has said she only slept with Ryan and I do remember the BTS gossip being that Meredith slept with Ian and she was so distraught about having to continue doing that show that Ian had to talk her into it. We do know Emily slept with Arie but at least she had the decency to not subject him to the LCD, just like Ali and Des did to their F2. So if she were such a decent, nice person, she would've afforded Nick at least that. So not only does she sleep with him, she has a LCD with him where she verbalizes in a cryptic way that it would be okay and yet she still knew Josh was it?! Wow!

 

And I agree with those who have said she is vile for complaining about Juan Pablo yet turning around and doing the same thing. But as others have pointed out, at least he was honest from the start and never truly lead her on. She is awful and props to Nick for calling her out, especially since he truly fell in love with her. I hope he gets therapy, it's obvious he shouldn't have gone to a show like this and needs it now more than ever.

[TheFinalRose]

Meanwhile, as if this season hasn't been suspect enough, apparently she and Josh copped to "meeting" before the show started filming but "clarified" that Josh saw her at a club but didn't approach her because he was already in casting for the season and she claims she never saw him because if she did, she would have dropped out of the show because after all, the minute she laid eyes on him she knew he was it for her. I remember all the rumors before the season started that Josh was a plant and that basically Andi met him after she had already agreed to do the show but no way was she passing up her opportunity to be the Bachelorette. So he got cast and pretty much ensured the show that they'd get a couple at the end of the season.

 

 

This sounds so interesting. I'm wondering if they have acquaintances in common where names and numbers were exchanged in the club. Didn't Andi say last night that she and Josh live five minutes apart, or was I hearing things, suffering from "omg I can't believe Nick said that" aftershock. Josh does not look like the kind of guy who would need to go on the Bachelorette and purposely miss his brother's NFL day unless he knew for sure there was a good reason to.

 

Hmm, also, maybe Andi acted so into Nick, and she really singled him out for special alone time, roses on the dates in front of everyone etc., to deflect from her plan to end up with Josh at the end no matter what. Maybe she picked Nick specifically and only because he was the opposite of Josh. Hence her monologue the whole season of why she didn't know why she and Nick got along or why she picked him.

Edited July 29, 2014 by TheFinalRose

[PetuniaP]

I doubt that she'll ever admit that she's shallow and narcissistic enough to have wanted to bask in Nick's borderline-creepy adulation

I don't get what makes Nick falling for Andi "borderline creepy". If falling in love is creepy, then we are all creeps I guess. 

Nick being so hurt, and so open about his feelings, makes me hate this whole "process". On their last date, he talked about feeling confident, Andi re-assured him, saying "You should be confident." She did everything to lead him to believe he was "the one".

I'm usually fine with the process but this season made me hate it. I must be as dumb as Nick but I really thought Andi had fallen for him so seeing him get dumped and take it so hard really got to me. I agree with him, she took the acting too far, and she DEFNITELY should not have slept with him in the fantasy suite. She should have left him with enough doubt so that he wasn't completely blindsided. As for him asking her about why she did it, he did try on two seperate occasions to have a private conversation about it but she was having none of it. So she deserved to be put on blast on national TV about it.

I know Nick isn't popular enough to be the next Bachelor but I REALLY hope he meets the right girl and I hope he can open himself up after this and his previous experience and fall in love again. Team Nick all the way.

Edited July 29, 2014 by PetuniaP

[Primetimer]

On the long-awaited Bachelorette finale, Andi does some good ol' fashioned dumpin'. Should you watch the carnage?

Read the story

[Alapaki]

Was it in poor taste sure. But I do think it was the producers way of getting back to him for the whole airplane video.

 

 

But Andi was the one who came away looking awful.  Maybe TPTB thought that Andi would've handled herself better and that Nick would've come across as a pathetic simp.  If so, they don't know Andi.  There was absolutely no way she was going to acknowledge any responsibility, let alone fault, for anyone's hurt feelings.

 

For example, had she said "Look, I had really strong feelings for both you [Nick] and Josh, that's why I kept you both around until the last minute.  It would've been easier to have let one of you go early and made my final decision simple.  But I thought I owed it to all of us to take as much of an opportunity as possible to develop a relationship so that I could be sure about both the one of you I picked and the one of you that I rejected.  The reality of the show is that it forces me to make a very tough decision, and I realize that saying how hard it is for me doesn't make it any easier for you.  But that's the reality of it."

 

Then I think Nick would've completely backed down and kept his mouth shut.  He was obviously uncomfortable talking about the FS anyway.  That would've allowed both of them to walk away from the interaction with some degree of dignity.

 

But Andi Dorfman is constitutionally incapable of that sort of compassion or respect.  Her demeanor towards Nick from the moment she came out on stage was "oh, what is he still doing here?"  I'm a little surprised that Andi hadn't been coached on how to handle that situation.  Although it's entirely possible she was coached and then just decided to disregard it because its All. About. Her.  It's inSANE!

[caligirl50]

I never liked Nick and I still don't.

Andi can sleep with who she wants to. No double standards. Jesse Palmer, the football player that was The Bachelor, did the same thing and when the contestant he didn't pick showed up in a wedding dress (she was way better than his final choice, who didn't last), she said the same thing to him. He took things too far.

It's her season, she can do what she wants.

I love how the show played up the letter and had Andi crying that she made a mistake. None of that was on the show last night.

I watch the show for the guys, who I think were great. The last two were not my favorites.

I just hope Andi is not bored by Josh in a few months/years.

[MsPH]

I'm usually not invested enough to feel too bad for the F2, but this time my heart just sank when Andi turned up at Nick's door. I mean I already knew that was coming due to spoilers, but I just felt so bad for him. Because during their last date she kept looking him straight in the eye reassuring him, telling him it'll be OK and that he should be confident. This while he was expressing concerns about proposing. Anyone would take that as meaning "you should propose, because I'll say yes". He was looking for confirmation and it seemed like she was giving it. And then finding out she even had sex with him... That's just so wrong. If she was truly torn at that point and falling in love with Nick then I might give her a pass, but she said herself that she loved Josh from day one and then told Nick that she was never in love with him. If that's true then she was only following her hormones at that point and that's unforgivable, when she knew full well how madly in love Nick was. That's taking advantage! And if she were a man, people would think she's an asshole, but there's this stupid misconception that men don't confuse love and sex and are up for it with whoever whenever. That they're lucky to get some. That's such BS. Men are people too and most people would consider sex with someone they love meaningful. I can totally understand him feeling used.

 

Now I definitely think he should learn to move on, at the tender age of 33, but she was also aware of how badly he takes heartbreak. His family told her and she even expressed concern about it. So why would she lead him on to that extent? Even if he was a backup, because Josh hadn't said "I love you" at that point. I really don't mind him knocking her off her pedestal at all. She even had the audacity to try and take credit for making him able to fall in love again or whatever. Yeah, I'm sure he's really grateful for having his time wasted and his feelings messed with to the extent that it'll take months to get over. Give me a break, Andi. I also think the producers were probably encouraging Nick to seek closure, and telling him how they all saw what he saw, just to get some drama for ATFR. And I think it's telling that Andi kept avoiding him. She knew she handled it badly. Oh and why was it so difficult to tell him "I just fell more in love with Josh"? You'd think that'd a lot easier than trying to make up vague excuses that will just confuse the other person more. In any case, Nick's lucky to be rid of her.

 

That said, Josh and Andi seem like a good fit. I'm sure they'll be very happy going to football matches every weekend and giggling at nothing.

 

Grumpy cat is so cute! She should feel insulted with the comparison TBH.

Edited July 29, 2014 by MsPH

[woodscommaelle]

Not a fan of Hy.  AT ALL.  And her sister Rachel (and her husband) looked bored to death listening to Andi talk about how passionate Nick was.

[truthaboutluv]

Also, I doubt he paid for his plane ticket to California - I'm sure the show paid for that.

 

 

Well and considering unlike that Chris Bukowski faux drama at the start of the season where he was down by craft services, Nick was sitting backstage in one of the green rooms and after giving the letter to CH, left in one of the show's limos. So it's pretty clear he got the okay from them to be there. 

 

Where did you read that please ? I ask, shamefully hungry for gossip.

 

 

Well the first time I heard rumors about her and Josh possibly knowing each other before the show, was back during the early days of the filming when some of the cast had been spoiled. I think I saw it first mentioned back at TWOP (RIP) and it was just a few comments that there were some rumors going around. Reality Steve even addressed it a few weeks before the season premiered, saying he'd looked into it and there was nothing to suggest the rumors were true. As for their story of being in the same club, I believe they said that on Kimmel last night. It's just with all the whispers early on, couple with this convenient story of them both in a club but him not speaking to her and she apparently never seeing him, I just think the whole thing sounds a bit sketchy.

 

Arie freaking showed up at Emily's house after her season ended, that's way more stalker-ish than trying to talk to Andi on the phone or flying to a television show taping to see her. And I liked Arie!

 

 

Arie not only flew to Emily's house to drop off his journal, he called her a bunch of times and many of his fans were convinced the producers were behind those things too. And in his defense, he said he didn't know whether she was engaged or not since she never said she loved Jef when breaking things off with him and so he thought it was possible she may not have picked anyone. Emily later said that she told Jef about the calls and Jef was the one who finally called Arie and told him he and Emily were engaged so he had to stop calling her. 

 

We do know Emily slept with Arie but at least she had the decency to not subject him to the LCD, just like Ali and Des did to their F2.

 

 

I thought the Emily sleeping with Arie thing was just speculation and gossip but the show always maintained she didn't go into a FS with any of the three guys. I never got that whole rumor though - why would this show, as sleazy as we've seen they could be, hide something like that? These people always have their handlers, etc. I think they would know if Emily had gone into a FS with someone and it would have been shown.

 

What Andi did was disgusting. Not only did she lead him on, she full well knew he is emotionally fragile and how much he really did care for her and still went ahead and did that.

 

 

This is where this whole show can be so cold and yes, people sign up for it and there is some level of "leading someone on" but there are still choices you can make. The guy's sister told Andi flat out, her biggest concern was her brother not getting hurt and yet even after he practically babbles and stumbles through an "I love you", lets it known how all in he is, knowing full well she was going to pick Josh, she still sleeps with him. 

 

This is why I even gave Andi the benefit of the doubt. Right up until the F3 episode I kept saying, "I doubt she slept with them both because I'm sure she knew she was picking Josh by then" and even after the episode aired, I was still saying "okay maybe some stuff happened with Nick but I'm pretty certain she only slept with Josh." It wasn't until I saw the deleted scene of the guys' video messages to her and I knew right off that Andi had sex with both Nick and Josh. And yeah I'm sorry, call me a prude I thought that was kind of icky but then I thought "well if she was really torn then I guess…" But for her to then come out there all cold and haughty acting like she knew Josh was the one weeks before and coldly dismissing any feelings for Nick, then yeah that makes that decision very shitty.

Edited July 29, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Palomar]

What a dick.  That's the first time anybody ever said that on that stage.

Below the belt is an understatement.  She tried to save him the embarrassment, but he's just blown it all.

I repeat, he's a dick.

 

 

ITA. People are also forgetting he didn't exactly relate well with any of the guys and has seemed a little off all along.  He seems broken but also revengeful.  What a jerk to say that. He knew what this show was all about.  Move on a-hole. I doubt we have heard the last of him.

[alexa]

ITA. People are also forgetting he didn't exactly relate well with any of the guys and has seemed a little off all along.  He seems broken but also revengeful.  What a jerk to say that. He knew what this show was all about.  Move on a-hole. I doubt we have heard the last of him.

 

But the thing is that he is friends with several of those guys from the house--...so that whole bunch of drama during the show was either producer driven, or if real at the time, they obviously like Nick now.  

[truthaboutluv]

Nick is actually close with a number of the guys in the house, particularly from the group that made it the furthest. And many of them were actually tweeting support to him last night, even some of the ones that he wasn't that close to, like Patrick and Tasos, who in his tweet stated that they had their differences but was still kind and generous to Nick.

 

There are also pictures of him hanging out with Chris and Brian after that mess last night and singing karaoke with Brian. And I guess I will always find it fascinating that Nick is a jerk and awful human being for saying he and Andi had sex yet nothing on what that makes Andi and her actions. I guess it's okay to do it but wrong for anyone to talk about it. Maybe it's like Fight Club.

Edited July 29, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Adeejay]

Jesse Palmer, the football player that was The Bachelor, did the same thing and when the contestant he didn't pick showed up in a wedding dress (she was way better than his final choice, who didn't last), she said the same thing to him. He took things too far.

 

You are confusing Jesse’s girls.  Trish, who was already eliminated, was the one who showed up at his hotel room wearing a wedding dress.  Tara, who was F2, got very indignant when Jesse told her she wasn’t the one and said, “then don’t you think what we did last night was inappropriate?”

 

What I find interesting is that Andi let Chris go before the Fantasy Suite because she didn't want to lead him on.  Earlier, she'd let Marcus go after he told her that he was in love with her, because they weren’t on the same page.  Why didn’t she do the same to Nick, given that she knew how he felt about her?  She was not obligated to take him to the fantasy suite (Emily didn’t take anyone).  And then to keep reassuring him, telling him, "It's gonna be okay," when she knew otherwise? That's unnecessarily cruel.  I believe It shows a lack of personal morality and character to “sleep” with someone, knowing you are in love with and are about to get engaged to another.  The irony is that she was afraid that Josh might be a player.  I wonder how his familyfeels about all of this.

[Alapaki]

Because during their last date she kept looking him straight in the eye reassuring him, telling him it'll be OK and that he should be confident. This while he was expressing concerns about proposing. Anyone would take that as meaning "you should propose, because I'll say yes". He was looking for confirmation and it seemed like she was giving it.

 

 

Maybe it's a YMMV situation.  Maybe it's Confirmation Bias.  But, knowing from the spoilers that she picked Josh, watching that last date it seemed to me that Nick was really misreading the whole situation.  

 

I took her comment "It will be okay" more to mean "It won't be so bad when I dump you.  You'll find someone else.  I hear Michelle Money's available", rather than "don't worry about tomorrow, it will be great."

 

Again, my perception may have been colored by foreknowledge of the outcome.  But I think it was a combination of Andi's body language, her facial expressions, and what she actually said that should have sounded to Nick more like consolation than confirmation.

[NoWhammies]

What was with Josh's aggressive hugging/shoulder rubbing during ATFR? It was just weird - he was just weird. He was super hyper. I was wondering if perhaps that was his first time hearing about the sleeping with Nick bombshell, and he was playing up his affection for the cameras in order to hide his rage. If so, I'm guessing they had words last night.

Edited July 29, 2014 by NoWhammies

[Melissa56789]

Producer nudging or not - Nick comes off as a "Stage 5 Clinger"

 

As far as being romantic or a stalker - there is a fine line between what might be perceived as romance vs. stalking.

 

 

[chocolatine]

What I find interesting is that Andi let Chris go before the Fantasy Suite because she didn't want to lead him on.  Earlier, she'd let Marcus go after he told her that he was in love with her, because they weren’t on the same page.  Why didn’t she do the same to Nick, given that she knew how he felt about her?  She was not obligated to take him to the fantasy suite (Emily didn’t take anyone).

 

 

Somebody had to be F2. If Andi had let everyone go that she's not into, there wouldn't have been a show. Now, she definitely didn't have to sleep with Nick if she didn't have feelings for him, and she deserves to be called out on that.

 

And not to veer too far off the topic of this thread, but Emily did take Jef, Arie, and Sean to the FS, and she also went to the FS with Brad. Each time she made a speech about how she's a mother and the FS time was just to "get to know" the guys, but she never turned down the FS. Courtney from Ben's season alleges in her book that Emily slept with both Jef and Arie in the FS. She's friends with Arie and Arie is friends with Jef, which is how that information was circulated. Not sure if I believe it, but Emily was definitely not the paragon of virtue the show tried to portray her as.

Edited July 29, 2014 by chocolatine

[locomoco]

I don't know... I saw Andi's being tough on Nick as being necessary. With his stalkerish behavior, I think she had to deliver a clear message to Nick with no mixed messages that he needs to get over it, and move on. 

[Adeejay]

On her season, while Emily had dinner and spent time with the guys, out of respect for her daughter,she did not take any of the guys to the fantasy suite.  And, how would Courtney know that she slept with Arie? 

[henripootel]

I'm willing to believe that most of that whole stalker-storyline was producer driven.  Just another attempt to inject some drama into what was probably an uber-meh season (from an editing, narrative perspective).

I'm in the minority here but I simply can't imagine any of this was anything other than poorly-scripted crapola.  Did Andi do the deed with Nick?  Possibly.  Nick being a 'cad' on tv and saying it aloud - is there even the slightest chance that this wasn't producer scripting?  The whole thing seemed as fake fake fake to me as Andi's 'charm' and Josh's 'I ditched baseball for love, not because I sucked at it'.

 

In this light, the producers decision to air a 'stalker's dream' sequence with Nick - extremely creepy.  I don't believe for a second that Nick had actual feelings and issues he was struggling with but stalking is a real thing.  And it's bad.  Stalkers aren't thwarted romantics with unresolved issues, they're a form of abuse.  Not sure you should be blurring that line for ratings, show.

Edited July 29, 2014 by henripootel

[Beebee111]

 

 

Maybe it's a YMMV situation.  Maybe it's Confirmation Bias.  But, knowing from the spoilers that she picked Josh, watching that last date it seemed to me that Nick was really misreading the whole situation. 

I took her comment "It will be okay" more to mean "It won't be so bad when I dump you.  You'll find someone else.  I hear Michelle Money's available", rather than "don't worry about tomorrow, it will be great."

Again, my perception may have been colored by foreknowledge of the outcome.  But I think it was a combination of Andi's body language, her facial expressions, and what she actually said that should have sounded to Nick more like consolation than confirmation.

 

I would agree with this entirely IF Andi hadn't gone ahead and slept with Nick. I think NOT having sex with a F2 contestant is a huge sign that you will not be picking them and vice versa. Ali and Trista both acknowledging sleeping with ONE of their final two.

 

It's interesting to me that the same people who think Nick should have "kept it private" think that what Andi did was okay and well within the premise of the show. If it was okay to sleep with him, then it should be okay to talk about it. Why the need for secrecy, if there is no sense that there was a violation of trust or exploitation of feelings? 

 

I think part of it may lie within people's feelings about casual sex. Andi could have told him, "we are both adults but please don't read too much into this, as I am still undecided." Clearly, Nick isn't into casual sex. It meant something to him. She knew that and still exploited him, and that drags my already low opinion of her even lower.

 

There's a total double standard here because Juan Pablo got a lot of flack for doing to Claire what she's done to Nick. Andi was the driver of the Juan Pablo judgment train. There's also a double standard about men sharing their hurt feelings openly.  That being said, Nick - it's time to move on - she's clearly not the goddess you thought she was - that fact should help you heal very quickly.  

 

If Josh can manage to live this down, then they truly do have chance. I can only imagine/hope the issue will come up at some interviews. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Beebee111

[LittleCabbage]

Regarding the alleged 'slut-shaming,' I really don't think this is a feminist issue. Fact: It's a lousy thing to sleep with someone when you know they care about you more than you care about them. This applies to both genders. Sleeping with Nick when she knew from day one that Josh was for her was a dick move, and I think Nick was well within his rights to ask her why she would do such a thing. Was she test-driving both of them to see who was better in the sack? I've always hated the Fantasy Suite part of the Bachelor/Bachelorette because I think sleeping with more than one person mere hours before you choose a prospective spouse is about as tacky as it gets. I laud those who consciously (and publicly) refused to use that time as an excuse to get laid.

Edited July 29, 2014 by LittleCabbage

[TomGirl]

NoWhammies, I agree, all that clutching and shoulder rubbing and arm scratching would've driven me mad if I were Andi. He is definitely a possessive, stereotypical "He-man" type. But Andi seems to eat that stuff up ("He's a MAN!") so maybe she's into that. I thought Josh and Nick were an interesting F2 because I can hardly think of two more opposite types, Josh so "He-man" and Nick so, like, y'know, I mean, like, not.

[lids]

I don't know... I saw Andi's being tough on Nick as being necessary. With his stalkerish behavior, I think she had to deliver a clear message to Nick with no mixed messages that he needs to get over it, and move on.

She probably wouldn't have had to be so "tough" if she hadn't slept with him first though. Bygones.

I just don't see stalking. All the times Chris Harrison was mediating between the Nick and Andi messages, Chris would say, "Andi said she's not ready to confront this yet." That just implies that the hurt party should try again. A clear message would have been, "I'll fulfill my contractual obligations to talk to you at ATFR but other than that you're not getting a word."

Also confusing. When they were breaking up, Nick asked Andi, "Is this about us or is this about someone else?" Giving her a clear opportunity to say she was in love with Josh. Andi just shrugged. Why do that unless she was being a coward?

Didn't Josh say he broke up with a woman and then didn't date for 5 years because she cheated on him by kissing someone? I don't even know what his manhood is going to do with his girl Andi. These people. This show. What a train wreck.

[WordFreak]

This whole season was so underwhelming to me, that I've hardly posted anything the whole time. I still don't have the will to snark, so that says something about how boring I thought everyone involved was.  Good luck to Andi and Josh - I hope you have a long and happy life (or 3 weeks) together.

 

Best part of this finale for me was Hy.  I wonder what he thinks about Nick's revelation around the Fantasy Suite...