S10.E11: Andi Then We Came To The End/S10.E12: After The Final Rose

[TheFinalRose]

In this light, the producers decision to air a 'stalker's dream' sequence with Nick - extremely creepy.  I don't believe for a second that Nick had actual feelings and issues he was struggling with but stalking is a real thing.  And it's bad.  Stalkers aren't thwarted romantics with unresolved issues, they're a form of abuse.  Not sure you should be blurring that line for ratings, show.

 

 

I don't think Nick is a stalker. He wasn't a paid actor with lines to read, he really participated in the "journey" with his real self. As did Andi and Josh, but Andi and Josh were the winners here whose real selves are still participating in the journey that began on camera. I think because it was real to Nick he wanted a chance to speak with Andi after he had a chance to process his shock, five minutes and over dumping with camera crew and sound men in the room.

 

It was real to Nick, and he just wanted to check back in with her. Was he naive? Yeah, considering you can't hand that kind of pathetic mopey heartbreak over to Fleiss and Co. and not expect them to run with it, especially in a season that was pretty ho hum.  But the Men Tell All taping was only a few weeks ago, and Andi still refused to talk with Nick at that point, citing she wasn't ready? You would think that two months post Final Rose ceremony, and being so deliriously happy with Josh she would have been big enough to just meet with Nick for five minutes or whatever. IMO she used Nick, knew she used him, and wanted to minimize facing the fallout of her actions to her contractually obligated ten minutes of screen time with him on the After the Final Rose show.

 

 

[Stinamaia]

I wasn't impressed with how Andi handled either Chris or Nick. With Chris she boohooed so badly that Chris wound up comforting her. She acted like she was the one being hurt instead of him. She seemed to want to go into the same role with Nick, but he became a bit accusatory, so she got tough. Then at the AFTR, instead of saying, "I'm sorry. Maybe I did take it a little too far. I'm sorry that hurt you the way it did," she had to start making that he was the bad guy.

My opinion is that she should have said, "I didn't choose you because it takes you five minutes to articulate a simple thought." God knows that would drive me crazy.

I really don't think Nick is a stalker, but the show likes to play up that sort of thing with rejected suitors.

But anyway, Andi's foibles are all Josh's to deal with now, and his are hers. Just hope that TPTB shun them the way they have Des and her guy who,IMO, are far more likable.

[jackjill89]

In the real world, anyone can sleep with anybody for any reason, but in the context of this show, when you are down to the final three, when the future is being discussed and things are being implied, sex means something. That's why Andi was so pissed at Juan Pablo. For him, it just meant a good time. For her, she was pissed because it obviously meant something different to her. With that experience, she should have known that sex with Nick would mean a great deal to him. She knew how he felt, and if she didn't feel anything for him, as she now claims, it was a shitty thing for her to do. Either she's a shitty fiance for sleeping with Nick knowing she loved Josh, or she wasn't as completely and absolutely in love with Josh as she claimed and that's shitty to Nick. The lead on is part of the game, but I do think there is a point of taking it to far. Maybe it's the Bachelor Bubble that makes some of them do it, but there are real feelings involved. 

 

All this being said, "at the end of the day" "eeees not OK" that Nick brought it up on TV. It was a spiteful thing to do. Neither Andi or Nick came out looking good last night. And Josh, poor, simple Josh, well, I think he'd grin through anything with his big white teeth and ill-fitting suits. 

[Padma]

That's why Andi was so pissed at Juan Pablo. For him, it just meant a good time. For her, she was pissed because it obviously meant something different to her. With that experience, she should have known that sex with Nick would mean a great deal to him. She knew how he felt, and if she didn't feel anything for him, as she now claims, it was a shitty thing for her to do. Either she's a shitty fiance for sleeping with Nick knowing she loved Josh, or she wasn't as completely and absolutely in love with Josh as she claimed and that's shitty to Nick. The lead on is part of the game, but I do think there is a point of taking it to far. Maybe it's the Bachelor Bubble that makes some of them do it, but there are real feelings involved.

 

I agree and at least Juan Pablo didn't make her think he was in love with her. Compared to the behavior she was so angry about with JP (being disinterested in getting to know her better as a person after they'd had sex), she was a lot worse to Nick.  She got to blast JP on camera and he took it pretty mildly and meekly. But Andi didn't take an ounce of responsibility for how she treated Nick and showed less regret for it than JP showed to her.  She expected everyone to continue to tell her how awesome and amazing she was no matter -what- she did. What a selfish, nasty woman.

 

But Andi got the man she wanted, didn't care who was hurt in the process, and that's what the show's all about, right?

 

In any case, when Josh has time to think about it, he might begin to wonder what kind of woman she -really- is.

 

I'll be interested how Sharleen--Nick's champion and friend to Andi and Josh--spins this.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Padma

[AV8n]

Nick came off as really naieve.  I realize that his emotions were pretty raw right after she dumped him, but in the meantime between that and the ATFR show, surely he realized that she did "fiance stuff" with Josh as well.  So obviously she did not see a FSF as a one-way ticket to holy matrimony the way he did.  Heck if she had chosen Nick, Josh might have showed up with a tee shirt with a picture of Andi doing the duck face and "I tapped that" written across the top.

 

The real winner last night was undoubtedly Grumpy Cat.  I am sure ABC had to pay for her appearance, and that's gotta translate into some extra Fancy Feast in the bowl.

[Andromeda]

So Nick went from annoying ass to creepy stalker when he couldn't get the girl. I don't know what he wanted Andi to say, and he didn't either. Probably was hoping for "I changed my mind! I want YOU!"

 

I see why he felt it was love if she slept with him -- it's definitely a role reversal (usually it's the woman thinking it's love.)

 

I feel like I missed the Andi/Josh romance. Considering she's a lawyer, and clearly not stupid, I just mentally tossed him into the "background noise" category. Maybe he's smarter than he comes across (though he can assemble sentences better than mealy-mouthed Nick). Maybe she likes them a bit on the dim side. I don't know. I do know last episode I did start believing Josh really loved her, because of how his eyes lit up when he talked about her. Plus he kept talking with so much certainty about making her his wife. I was sold. Contrast that with Nick's hemming and hawing, and I kind of wonder if Josh didn't already know he was the final pick.

 

I think the fact they live five minutes away from each other is kind of cool. It's like going all around the world to find love and finding it right next door. (Cue romantic music). Of course, they could have saved us all a lot of trouble if they'd just run across each other at a bar in town. LOL.

[MsPH]

Maybe it's a YMMV situation.  Maybe it's Confirmation Bias.  But, knowing from the spoilers that she picked Josh, watching that last date it seemed to me that Nick was really misreading the whole situation.  

 

I took her comment "It will be okay" more to mean "It won't be so bad when I dump you.  You'll find someone else.  I hear Michelle Money's available", rather than "don't worry about tomorrow, it will be great."

 

Again, my perception may have been colored by foreknowledge of the outcome.  But I think it was a combination of Andi's body language, her facial expressions, and what she actually said that should have sounded to Nick more like consolation than confirmation.

 

I was also aware of the outcome and knew he was about to be dumped. That is why I was listening so intently to what she was saying and trying to think of it from his point of view. Obviously seeing both final dates, the vibe during Josh's date was very positive whereas with Nick it was more negative. But I also think that the things Andi were saying could definitely be taken as reassurance, and since that is what Nick was looking for, he probably took them as such. I also didn't find her body language to differ much from other times she's been serious. She always seems a bit grumpy while having an actual conversation.

 

Regardless, if she already knew he wasn't it for her, then why not just dump him there and then? Why say misleading things and kiss and leave him looking forward to proposing? I just find her very cold and narcissistic. She already seemed cold towards the other guys last week, which bothered me a little, but she just took it to a whole other level this week. She couldn't have seemed less sympathetic towards Nick ever since the moment he dared question her actions in that hotel room while she was dumping him. She was ready to have a crying fest like she did with Chris, but her face changed totally when he had some valid questions. She looked angry and she looked even angrier coming on that stage to meet him. It's as if he'd served his purpose and she wanted nothing to do with him anymore.

[Kbilly]

She knew the depths of his feelings, by her own admission didn't reciprocate them, and still went for it. And then slept with and got engaged to someone else within days. That requires explanation

 

I think that something bad happened in that fantasy suite, performance-wise for Nick. She always talked about how "passionate" they were leading up to that fantasy suite and then afterward her body language was very different--standoffish and their kisses were those smacky quick pecks. He did get her first, Josh sloppy seconds.

 

Josh's suit was so snug at the proposal that I thought it was going to tear in half when he got down on one knee. The baseball card was kind of cute but I couldn't get over his red pants. What is the deal with all these guys in red or pink pants this season???!! The proposal was soooo freakin' long and I'm really glad that they didn't make us sit through it again on ATFR like they usually do.

 

I loved when Chris said "No one expected THAT!" when Andi came to Nick's door because we actually all did. 

[Armchair Critic]

The one move I give Josh thumbs up for was kissing Grumpy Cat (the actual cat), that was really cute. 

[Jaundiced Eye]

"What was with Josh's aggressive hugging/shoulder rubbing during ATFR? It was just weird - he was just weird. He was super hyper. I was wondering if perhaps that was his first time hearing about the sleeping with Nick bombshell, and he was playing up his affection for the cameras in order to hide his rage."

NoWhammies, I got the exact same vibe. I thought Josh was going to rub a hole through Andi's arm. He had the dazzling smile going, as always, but I think beneath his manic energy he was seething with rage. Absolutely beside himself. A former athlete learning before millions of people that he is engaged to Nick's leftovers? Eeewwww. I cannot believe for a minute that Josh will actually go through with this pathetic excuse for a marriage. Nick for the win, I guess.

[Scout Finch]

 

I don't know how Andi managed to continue conversing with Chris once Grumpy Cat was placed in her arms.  I would have been unable to focus on anything else, because Grumpy Cat rules.  I appreciated that Josh seemed to like her, and petted her. 

 

He also bent over and kissed her head! While some women swoon over men holding babies, I love a guy who is not afraid to baby-talk to his pets and give them little kisses like Josh did. I have a guy friend who's married and they have a cat that he adores. One day during a chat, he just randomly typed, "I LOVE THOMAS!" Awww.

 

I do love Chris Harrison doing the whole wink and nod non-announcement that Farmer Chris will be the next Bachelor.

 

 

I need to start working on all my "plow" jokes now...

 

 

No need, Spinal Tap has already done the work for us:

 

Workin' on a sex farm

Tryin' to raise some hard love

Gettin' out my pitch fork

Pokin' your hay

 

Scratchin' in your hen house

Sniffin' at your feedbag

Slippin' out your back door

Leavin' my spray

 

Sex farm woman, I'm gonna mow you down

Sex farm woman, I'll rake and hoe you down

Sex farm woman

Don't you see my silo risin' high, high, high?

 

Workin' on a sex farm

Hosin' down your barn door

Botherin' your livestock

They know what I need

Workin' up a hot sweat

 

Crouchin' in your pea patch

Plowin' through your bean field

Plantin' my seed

Edited July 29, 2014 by Scout Finch

[TomGirl]

Re: Josh's manic grinning and arm rubbing, he might indeed have been angry at Nick's revelation, but I doubt it was news to him. Andi was probably smart enough to tell him some version of what happened, and she didn't seem all that upset or horrified when Nick brought it up. But Josh still might have been furious at Nick for doing it.

[Superpole2000]

Upon further reflection, I love that NIck dropped the sex bomb on the AFTR. He was stuck in the wounded loser role all last night, and most compassionate people in Andi's shoes would have thrown him a bone to help lift some of the embarrassment. But no, Andi gave him nothing but a dismissive attitude. She gave Nick every reason to be a spiteful jerk.

 

I still can't believe Josh was so happy when he came out on stage. The only possible explanations:

1. Josh was not listening to the show and didn't hear the Nick/sex news.

2. Andi already told Josh before the show, and he was somehow okay with it.

3. Andi and Josh have an open sexual relationship and/or do not value fidelity.

 

But thanks to Chris Harrison dropping the ball, we didn't get to find out how the most dramatic moment of the season affected anything.

 

I really hope Andi is actually pregnant because then I could look forward to the best ever paternity test episode of Maury.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Superpole2000

[JenE4]

I don't believe that Andi always loved Josh from the moment she laid eyes on him when he stepped out of the limo. Because, for one, wouldn't HE have gotten the first impression rose, not Nick? IMO, most of this season she seemed way more into Nick than into Josh. For me, I think it started changing on hometowns--by that point Josh could have been her favorite, but it was definitely apparent by fantasy suite dates; when Josh told her that he loved her, she was just beaming and melting all at the same time. I thought in front of her parents Andi acted 50/50. But then perhaps it was talking with her family afterward that the light definitely switched and she couldn't have possibly been more gaga over Josh or more indifferent to Nick on their last chance dates. I do believe her that she had a guard up with Josh and when she let it down, it was like the floodgates crashing. But I think she DID have feelings for Nick up to and including his Fantasy Suite date (I think it changed during Josh's FSD)--maybe not "love" with Nick, but definitely lust. I thought she was particularly--and unusually--cold to Nick during ATFR. She knows what she's "supposed to" say about how much she cares about him but they're just not the best match, and someone will be so lucky to have him, yadda-yadda. She said this to the last several guys that she sent home through tears, so she knows how it goes. Why didn't she give Nick any of that at ATFR? Only after he revealead their "fiancee-type stuff" did she back-pedal, but she was as cold as ice to him. I wonder whether it's to save face with Josh? He can't be too thrilled with seeing Andi gushing about what a passionate MAN Nick is as he drags her caveman style to make-out all season, so it just reads as complete revisionist history. I don't blame Nick for wondering how she turned it off so quickly; I'm wondering that, too. Fine, her feelings changed. The last few weeks of the show she definitely fell in love with Josh and realized what she had with Nick wasn't love, but don't act like the first month and a half never happened or that you didn't enjoy the lustful feelings you had for Nick. Instead, [handwave] Nothing to see here, folks! Nothing happened! It was all Josh all the time from the second I laid eyes on him! No it wasn't!

[Palomar]

And I guess I will always find it fascinating that Nick is a jerk and awful human being for saying he and Andi had sex yet nothing on what that makes Andi and her actions. I guess it's okay to do it but wrong for anyone to talk about it.

 

 

Even though Andi says she knew from the beginning it was Josh for her, throughout the season she always talked about her doubts thinking he might break her heart or not be ready for marriage.  Only she knows, but maybe she "didn't" completely make up her mind until the end until she was more certain about Josh. She did make that comment about waking up and knowing it wasn't right with Nick.  Sometimes you try to force something with the person who seems perfect for you but just really isn't.  Regardless of it seeming callous, maybe Andi was still leaning towards Nick at that point in time because he seemed more right for her (despite her "I always loved Josh" comment). 

 

It's still a shitty thing to do to bring it up on national TV. Show some dignity and class (yes there is little of that on this show). And, if Nick really wanted her back, he definitely shot down any possibility of that if things didn't work out with Josh down the line. He had to know she would be pissed and it showed with her comments during the rest of their conversation.

 

Keep in mind all of these people signed up for this show knowing the premise, risks, and rewards.  There are people brokenhearted every season but they always seem to get over it.  Nick went a little further than most.

[MyLisa]

 

Josh's suit was so snug at the proposal that I thought it was going to tear in half when he got down on one knee. The baseball card was kind of cute but I couldn't get over his red pants. What is the deal with all these guys in red or pink pants this season???!!

 

Most of the season I"ve been thinking there's been a lot of lost luggage, and Josh's suit just sealed the deal.  I'd be willing to bet they had to buy him a suit in The Dominican Republic and that was the biggest one they could find.  Not only was the suit too small, he wore it with brown shoes!  Ugh.  I do like him, though, and think they're adorable together.  It's just too bad the structure of the show always leaves us with someone who's hurt, and the "winner" having to watch his/her fiance(e) fooling around with other people.

[TomGirl]

Haha, Superpole! If Andi gives birth to Nick's baby, it's first words will probably be, "Like, I mean, dada!"

[Hpmec]

This show is all about amping up the drama. Nick's post-dump behavior was most likely producer driven to further the storyline. On the topic of Josh's suit. It looked like he hadn't brought one with him and scrambled to borrow somebody's. It looked ridiculous.

[TomGirl]

"She did make that comment about waking up and knowing it wasn't right with Nick."

I don't believe that at all. I think she just used his own words from the previous night to justify her decision.

[Andromeda]

Of COURSE Josh's proposal started off with, "When I gave up my first love, baseball..."! Noooo!

Josh seriously has his priorities screwed up. I don't even know what or who he is now, other than a washed-up ball player. He keeps saying he "gave up" baseball, but dollars to donuts baseball gave up on him!

[Padma]

I don't think Nick did anything wrong--he was so open with her, she knew his feelings so well and apparently felt it was fine to pretend to reciprocate them, physically and with words (and apparently was even deceptive sexually in the FS). This, after helping to make JP one of the most disliked bachelors ever by calling him out for misleading her. 

 

I can't understand how Andi met Nick's family and saw how much they--including his little sister--were worried he'd be hurt (on national television no less) and still used him that way.

 

What kind of person could say and act like she did after all of that? Someone very cold, manipulative and narcissistic. Actually, (esp after seeing Josh kiss Grumpy Cat, I think he's too good for her. And that he speaks good Spanish shows me he's not dumb.)

 

Grandma always told me to judge people by the way they treat those they don't want anything from, not the way they treat the people they're trying to impress.  Josh seems like he's probably nice to everyone. Andi? Not so much.

[PetuniaP]

You know the part I really don't get? How could the same Andi who practically shouted "I love you, I'm so in love with you and it was you from the minute I laid eyes on you" to Josh, sleep with Nick 2-3 weeks before that? While she was dating Josh?! Who does that? How do you do that? I'm all for casual, no strings attached sex but if you are really in love with someone and they are a few rooms away...how do you sleep with someone else? Especially as Nick said, he had no expectations of that night...Andi could have just talked to him and he would have been ok with it. She's a bitch.

Edited July 29, 2014 by PetuniaP

[pomme de terre]

It sounds like Nick was reading from this lady's playbook:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/breakup-hints-misinterpreted-as-marriageproposal-h,137/

Andi shouldn't have slept with him, though. That was mean.

[jette]

Andromeda said:

I think the fact they live five minutes away from each other is kind of cool. It's like going all around the world to find love and finding it right next door. (Cue romantic music).

 

 

And that folks, was the theme of this season, finally revealed at the last possible moment.

 

Just like "Farmer takes a Wife" will be the theme if Chris is the next Bachelor. Sadly, we'll be hit over the head with that every week, I'm sure. Wonder if Fleiss can get the rights to The Farmer in The Dell?

Edited July 29, 2014 by jette

[MsPH]

I couldn't even focus on the proposal, because I was so distracted by Josh's suit jacket popping open. Shows how fake Andi is that she told him he looks good at least twice. And suddenly sounding like Scarlett O'Hara when talking about loving him didn't exactly help her come across as genuine.

[violetr]

Well, that was just gross. Three hours of that cringe-worthy nonsense and the only thing I actually enjoyed was the 30 seconds or so of Grump Cat. I love you Grumpy Cat!

 

Like Nick, I feel like such a fool because I have been defending Andi this entire season. Well after her horrible, cruel, cold attitude toward Nick last night, I kinda hate her now. She was so awful to him. Way to rub salt in the wound, lady. I usually enjoy the schadenfraude this show brings, but I did not enjoy seeing a man's heart and dignity get ground to a bloody pulp last night. 

 

Further, both the "what a stalker" and "man up" memes are really bugging me. Makes wonder if anyone who's saying those things has ever been dumped with nary an explanation by someone they were madly in love with. After it happens, you're just not yourself for awhile. All you can think is "is there any way I can fix this?" and "I just want to see/talk to you." You get over it eventually, but it takes time.

 

I basically want to see Andi and Josh fail now. Yeah I said it.

[ribboninthesky1]

I took her comment "It will be okay" more to mean "It won't be so bad when I dump you.  You'll find someone else.  I hear Michelle Money's available", rather than "don't worry about tomorrow, it will be great."

 

My opinion is that she should have said, "I didn't choose you because it takes you five minutes to articulate a simple thought." God knows that would drive me crazy.

 

I am dying right now! Thank you for the hilarity, alapaki and stinamaia.

 

I saw the plane video, and it really did Nick no favors.  I also watched the Nick and Andi interaction from ATFR.  Oh boy, talk about awkward.  I have to agree with the person upthread that neither of them came off looking that great.  Still, Andi edges out Nick for me precisely because of her haughty, drawn out final conversation with Juan Pablo (who I never had any issues with on the show, and was entertaining with his "I have absolutely zero fucks to give" disposition). 

 

It was why I've never been much of an Andi fan, even while supporting her right to choose Josh without it being some kind of epic fail on her part.  I also believe that Andi owed Nick nothing further after she sent him home.  Sometimes you don't get closure when things end, and you have to deal.  So while I'm not particularly bothered by Nick's revelation, I'm not buying the "she forced his hand because she wouldn't talk to him privately" perspective, either.  The level of entitlement in that perspective, from any F2, not just Nick, has always baffled me. Has there ever been a F2 who declined to show up at ATFR or, at least, didn't feel entitled to ask why he or she wasn't chosen/go on and on about their feelings?  Producer driven or not, I truly see no point in it.       

 

In any case, in a week, nobody will care because Bachelor in Paradise will provide ever more snark and edited fuckery.

[Jaundiced Eye]

Nice way to completely humiliate both the Dorfman and Murray families.  Nick, the prince.  No way he's getting an invite to the wedding...*LOL*

 

I guess YMMV. I see Andi as the victimizer. No wonder Hy is so desperate to find some fool to marry his venal and been-around-the-block-WAY-too-many-times daughter. She is beyond "ridden hard and put away wet." She managed to make Juan Pablo look virtuous.

 

Nick may not realize it yet, but he dodged a bullet. If Josh has an IQ above 80 or so (and I think he does), he is planning his escape from Planet Andi as we speak. Anyone who did not see her true colors last night (cold, self-absorbed, sleazy and despicable) was not paying attention. Both men would do better with any woman pulled randomly off the street. Let Andi rot alone.

 

[Alapaki]

I don't believe that Andi always loved Josh from the moment she laid eyes on him when he stepped out of the limo. Because, for one, wouldn't HE have gotten the first impression rose, not Nick? IMO, most of this season she seemed way more into Nick than into Josh.

 

 

Even though Andi says she knew from the beginning it was Josh for her, throughout the season she always talked about her doubts thinking he might break her heart or not be ready for marriage.  Only she knows, but maybe she "didn't" completely make up her mind until the end until she was more certain about Josh.

 

 

Honestly, no matter how much Andi talked about "obstacles" and "hurdles" in her "journey" with Josh, from the stuff that was filmed in real-time, I didn't see any of that.  I think most of that came from talking-head interviews taped after-the-fact in order to give the editors something to work with to create some drama and suspense.  The only real-time wrinkle that I saw was Josh's reaction to the lie-detector test.  And I'm not beyond believing that his reaction was largely scripted by the producers on the scene for the same reason.

 

Somebody had to be F2. If Andi had let everyone go that she's not into, there wouldn't have been a show.

 

 

True.  But it's still a question of who she decided to bring to F2/3/4.  It's my impression that there were plenty of mid- to late-season bootees whom Andi had largely friend-zoned, and who could have handled rejection at F2 much better than Nick.  I'm thinking of Dylan, Brian, J.J., Marquel, Cody.  Instead, Andi chose to keep two guys who she knew were over-the-top gushing at her: Nick and Marcus.  I'm assuming Chris was a producer-pick in order to set him up to be the next Bachelor, but I don't doubt that there was a superficial physical attraction there as well.

 

Now, it's possible that the guys who ended up being cast on Herpes Bachelor in Remission Paradise were eliminated when they were at the Producers' direction in order to facilitate taping of that show.  

 

But, that still doesn't excuse Andi sleeping with Nick.

 

And, I know that I keep coming back to Andi's sending Chris home before the FS.  But even if sending Nick, in addition to Chris, home before FS's wasn't an option, the fact that she sent Chris home proves that Andi understood the significance and gravity of the FS.  Actually, it also show that she apparently automatically equates "choosing to forego your separate rooms" with "going to O-town".  

[gator12]

This whole season was so underwhelming to me, that I've hardly posted anything the whole time. I still don't have the will to snark, so that says something about how boring I thought everyone involved was.  Good luck to Andi and Josh - I hope you have a long and happy life (or 3 weeks) together.

 

Best part of this finale for me was Hy.  I wonder what he thinks about Nick's revelation around the Fantasy Suite...

Who is Hy?

[Crumpet]

 

Who is Hy?

 

Andi's dad, who is inexplicably (to me) popular.

[Rhondinella]

I took her comment "It will be okay" more to mean "It won't be so bad when I dump you.  You'll find someone else.  I hear Michelle Money's available"

 

 

*Snort*

[Kbilly]

My opinion is that she should have said, "I didn't choose you because it takes you five minutes to articulate a simple thought." God knows that would drive me crazy.

 

Chris Harrison and Andi deserve medals to sit through his hemming and blabbering without saying "Spit it out already!!!"

 

But even if sending Nick, in addition to Chris, home before FS's wasn't an option, the fact that she sent Chris home proves that Andi understood the significance and gravity of the FS.

 

Exactly. This is why I think disaster struck in the bedroom with Nick.  

 

I can't believe Brooks is going to be on Bachelor in Paradise. Also did anyone think Clare was eyeing Chris across the aisle?

[limecoke]

Oh for pete's sake, I have no sympathy whatsoever for any of these dunderheads.  They go on a freaking reality show that's been on for years.  They know what's expected of them and the guys who sign up for the 'ette, know that there is a high probability of rejection but a good chance they'll get some sweet lovin' along the way.  So they all need to get over themselves and climb down off their high horses.  That Andi chose to have sex with her #2 guy knowing full well that she was "in love" with the other one doesn't speak well for her character.  They have to play out the whole fantasy suite fiasco and if their choices come back to bite them - cry me a river.  

 

Interesting that ABC and TPTB let old Nick hijack the "After The Final Rose" show.  Just goes to show how much of a joke this whole thing is.  And yet I watch because it's good for laughs.

 

When Andi and Josh were going on and on about who loved who more, I was disappointed that they didn't call each other "schmoopy".

Edited July 29, 2014 by limecoke

[TomGirl]

QUOTE: When Andi and Josh were going on and on about who loved who more, I was disappointed that they didn't call each other "schmoopy".

I thought for a minute that she did say that, so I rewound to check but, sadly, I was wrong.

[Andromeda]

It wasn't until I saw the deleted scene of the guys' video messages to her and I knew right off that Andi had sex with both Nick and Josh.

Deleted scene? Please tell me where I can see it. What did the guys say about Andi and sex with both guys?

My opinion is that she should have said, "I didn't choose you because it takes you five minutes to articulate a simple thought." God knows that would drive me crazy.

Seriously. I normally go for the more nerdy guy, but Nick just leaves me cold, and this is one of the reasons. I assume he's smarter than Josh, just because I have yet to hear Josh really discuss anything deep, but Josh is way more articulate.

But anyway, Andi's foibles are all Josh's to deal with now, and his are hers. Just hope that TPTB shun them the way they have Des and her guy who,IMO, are far more likable.

Why/how are Des and Chris being shunned? They've been on some of the shows as a couple after their season. Why would the show not like them? I like them, though most people disbelieved Des's selection of Chris because of her crazy reaction to Brooks, I wasn't one of them.

 

I take umbrage at the phrases "sloppy seconds" and "leftovers" used about any woman, even Andi. They're low phrases that objectify women, and imply that a woman must remain pure until she's with a single man. Is there a similar phrase for promiscuous men? I can't think of one.

 

That said, I agree with this sentiment:

You know the part I really don't get? How could the same Andi who practically shouted "I love you, I'm so in love with you and it was you from the minute I laid eyes on you" to Josh, sleep with Nick 2-3 weeks before that? While she was dating Josh?! Who does that? How do you do that? I'm all for casual, no strings attached sex but if you are really in love with someone and they are a few rooms away...how do you sleep with someone else?

 

Unless she really hadn't decided on Josh, in which case, why'd she say basically that she knew it was him from the first?

 

On to Paradise! That should be good for some mindless summer fun. The premise sounds like the old "Paradise Hotel" show, if anyone else remembers that.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Andromeda

[Beebee111]

An interesting, well-written take on yesterdays events. The summary is Andi wasn't slut-shamed, she was asshole-shamed. Lol. 

 

http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-07-29/some-thoughts-on-the-bachelorettes-shocking-finale-slut-shaming-andi-dorfman/

[backformore]

Truthaboutluv:  Also, as frankly painful as that whole scene was to watch, I personally disagree that Nick aimed right for revealing the sex immediately. Like I said last night, Andi walked out of there cold, dismissive and frankly looking like she loathed Nick. And her responses and demeanor in those first few minutes matched that. The way she coldly said yes, she read the letter and said nothing more, like it was some passing thought, then almost aggressively and defensively said that she never loved him period and that's why she never told him. Andi in those first few minutes came there acting like any confusion, feelings Nick might have had were through no fault of hers. She really tried to pretend she didn't lead him on which was bullshit. And after listening to her make those dismissive statements, was when he finally told her well if you felt all this, why the hell did you sleep with me.

And her demeanor quickly shifted slightly after that. She was still defensive, probably fuming even more but all of a sudden she started talking about how much she really did care for him and the things said were real or whatever bull she was spilling. Because once he put that truth out there, she was basically stuck with letting viewers think one or two things - either she had no real major feelings for this guy and knew it and knew Josh was her pick long before the finale but still had sex with him which just makes her seem very shady or she truly was torn in some way and her sleeping with him was real.

 

Right.  watching the show, Andi was giving him the message all along, even through the last chance date, that he was special and important to her.  The fact that she didn't say "I love you"  - ??   did she say it to Josh?  certainly not that we saw, not until that final rose/proposal moment.  I thought they weren't supposed to say I love you, because that reveals the final pick.   But because she didn't say it to Nick, he was supposed to get the message that he was runner up? 

 

Andi really gave mixed messages, to nick, and to the audience.  She's falling for two great guys -she's making out with them, bringing them to her family, talked to both about how they asked for her dad's blessing.   THEN - she chooses Josh, and acts like Nick was delusional to even think he was in the running, because it was Josh and only Josh all along.  that's not what we saw, and that's not what Nick felt. 

 

 I agree that Nick is not a "stalker" -  he wanted some clarity, wanted to say "you acted like you cared, then said you didn't."  It's understandable, after someone you were ready to marry dumps you, to want to talk to them afterwards -  Ask a question, make a final plea,   just share your thoughts.   Maybe, just to say "You treated me badly and I am hurting."   It's not stalker-ish, because she acted like she was in love with him.  

Nick was skeptical about the show  from the beginning, and I think he wanted to know -  how much of what we had was REAL, and how much was a TV show?   I think I'd feel the same way.   

[Adeejay]

How could the same Andi who practically shouted "I love you, I'm so in love with you and it was you from the minute I laid eyes on you" to Josh, sleep with Nick 2-3 weeks before that?

 

I think the time frame was about a week. I see nothing wrong with her inviting Nick to the FS, however, she didn’t have to sleep with him.  Several people said that was the only opportunity they had to get to really talk without the cameras.  Funny how Andi equates the FS to other things.  Hy must be so proud. 

 

I can't believe Brooks is going to be on Bachelor in Paradise.

 

I can’t believe Brooks and Graham are still looking for love, considering they both could have had a “Bachelorette”.  One didn’t want DeAnna and the other didn’t want Desiree.  I am starting to believe those two have issues with commitment.

[Stinamaia]

Andromeda, I said "shunned" because they are not getting their wedding televised. Probably it was too strong a word, but I went with it for brevity which didn't work because now I'm typing all this. Ha!

Andi's acted the way she did throughout the show because she had a show to out on and because she is the producers' willing tool. We all know that. I guess she really was attracted to Nick or she wouldn't have slept with him. I hope she worked through that issue with Josh beforehand. Cause otherwise -- oopsie!

I mean I figured she slept with Nick when she was on camera going to meet Josh for their date and she looked so refreshed and relaxed. She looked like she had a good time.

[truthaboutluv]

Deleted scene? Please tell me where I can see it. What did the guys say about Andi and sex with both guys?

 

 

Not sure if it it's still there but the scene was on ABC.com and uploaded after the Final 3 episode. It was basically Josh and Nick talking to Andi in video messages and it was just comments they both made about the night in the FS that just convinced me that she slept with them both. Josh made comments about how much he loved waking up in her arms, laying next to her and Nick talked about how the night had all parts of their relationship, it had the intensity, passion, subtlety, etc. As they say, I'm no naive school girl and I just quickly realized those the words of two guys who had sex with that woman.

 

I think the time frame was about a week.

 

 

The time frame of her accepting the engagement was a week, but personally what I'm most creeped out is the fact that she slept with him and Josh in the space of two days. Yeah...

Edited July 29, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Alapaki]

I thought they weren't supposed to say I love you, because that reveals the final pick.   But because she didn't say it to Nick, he was supposed to get the message that he was runner up?

 

 

The most damning thing against Andi is the quote that Kristen picked up on over at EW.com:

 

"We were in the water. I just remember after I told you I loved you, and you said 'I wish I could say things back.'" The prosecution rests, your honor.

 

 

Now, I suppose that could mean "I love you and I wish I could say it."  OR, it could mean "I wish I could say 'I love you', but I don't."

 

Maybe Andi was being intentionally ambiguous there.  Maybe she was leading Nick on.  Or maybe the master, expert, pit-bull litigator actually spoke inartfully. (I know, STAAAHHHP, that would be inSANE).

 

But I doubt there's anything in the "rules" that would've prevented Andi from responding "I'm just not there yet with you."  And if it was against the "rules"?  So what?  People's real lives and feelings take precedence over Mike Fleiss' desired script at some point.  The worst that would happen is that they leave that scene on the cutting-room floor.

Not sure if it it's still there but the scene was on ABC.com and uploaded after the Final 3 episode. It was basically Josh and Nick talking to Andi in video messages and it was just comments they both made about the night in the FS that just convinced me that she slept with them both.

 

 

Typically we get a scene of the "star" wistfully watching those videos, struggling to make up their mind and find "clarity" along their "journey".  Having already sent Chris home before the RC, I suppose there was no need to show that this season.

[JudyObscure]

My opinion is that she should have said, "I didn't choose you because it takes you five minutes to articulate a simple thought." God knows that would drive me crazy.

Seriously. I normally go for the more nerdy guy, but Nick just leaves me cold, and this is one of the reasons. I assume he's smarter than Josh, just because I have yet to hear Josh really discuss anything deep, but Josh is way more articulate.

Josh just repeats the last sentence of the person he's talking to. Honestly, there wasn't much to choose between Nick's eyelid fluttering impression of a nervous teenage girl and Josh's over-caffeinated, jittery echo talk.

I can't call Nick a stalker either. Most romantic comedies have a scene of the guy "going after," the girl and it's supposed to demonstrate true love through bold action or something. We've all been conditioned to think that stuff is romantic since Heathcliff spied on Cathy through her husband's windows.

[violetr]

I take umbrage at the phrases "sloppy seconds" and "leftovers." They're low phrases that objectify women, and imply that a woman must remain pure until she's with a single man. Is there a similar phrase for promiscuous men? I can't think of one.

 

Thank you for saying this so I didn't have to. :) That said, I'm actually very impressed with this forum that there hasn't been much of this kind of talk. Cultural progress! For the record, I will be the first person to scream "slut shaming" if I think it's happening. In this case, though, I think Andi sleeping with Nick was just her being a selfish dick.

[sioux21]

 

Has there ever been a F2 who declined to show up at ATFR or, at least, didn't feel entitled to ask why he or she wasn't chosen/go on and on about their feelings?

 

 

I don't remember her name, but didn't Juan Pablo's runner-up refuse to talk to him in ATFR? I think she let Chris Harrison interview her, but declined to confront Juan Pablo about anything. IIRC, she said something like she didn't want to ever talk to him again and that she knew everything she needed to know about him.

[ribboninthesky1]

I mean I figured she slept with Nick when she was on camera going to meet Josh for their date and she looked so refreshed and relaxed. She looked like she had a good time.

 

stinamaia, ha! 

 

Regarding the Nick vs Josh communication styles, I've never thought either was particularly articulate.  Of the F4, I think Chris was the most effective at clear self-expression.  But at least Josh didn't word salad (ha!) all over the place.  I can sympathize with finding your words occasionally, but it really got bad with Nick in the home stretch.  The man was barely coherent, and this was two months later.  I guess it's anxiety, which is somewhat understandable, but I can't help but wonder if there is some emotional immaturity/retardation in there as well.  Which is saying something when your competition isn't exactly William F. Buckley. Or hell, even Ames.

 

I don't remember her name, but didn't Juan Pablo's runner-up refuse to talk to him in ATFR? I think she let Chris Harrison interview her, but declined to confront Juan Pablo about anything. IIRC, she said something like she didn't want to ever talk to him again and that she knew everything she needed to know about him.

 

Ah, I didn't watch Juan Pablo's ATFR, so I missed this.  One of the better ways to handle it, I suppose.

Edited July 29, 2014 by ribboninthesky1

[Scorpiosunshine]

If Nick is so emotionally fragile, perhaps next time he has sex he should wait until he isn't 1/3 of a relationship with a 50/50 shot at being "The One". If those things they did were finance things, why didn't he wait until they were actually engaged? Of course he didn't wait.

Nick is quite the disingenuous one, and all his slouchy-shouldered hem-hawing was a terribly played out act. He couldn't wait to spit out that they'd slept together (I judge neither of them for that --they are adults). No, it's not OK to talk about it just because it's OK to do it. It is classless and in poor taste, and no true gentleman would have done that. I don't think having your dating life on display means your bedroom should be on display , too. I'm no prude, far from it, but that was low of Nick, and comfirmed most of what many already felt about him.

I wouldn't have slept with Nick if I was already in love with Josh, but I won't judge Andi if that is the case--at that point perhaps she was still deciding, I don't know, but either way there wasn't yet a commitment.

Nick is one of those guys who plays dirty when his ego is hurt, and his true character finally came shining through.

This biggest thing for me though, and it's something I noticed early on (and I wasn't for Nick or Josh and didn't care who won) is how fake and put on he is in his speech, mannerisms, body language and tics. It is so fake and such a terrible acting job. He tries to come across as a certain way, tries to be so "awww shucks", that I don't think for a minute the real Nick was ever out on camera. Well, not until he got his childish revenge--that was Real Nick. If he truly loved Andi, that wouldn't have happened.

[backformore]

I can't call Nick a stalker either. Most romantic comedies have a scene of the guy "going after," the girl and it's supposed to demonstrate true love through bold action or something. We've all been conditioned to think that stuff is romantic since Heathcliff spied on Cathy through her husband's windows.

 

LOL!   Yeah, that makes me think of John Cusak playing the part of Nick,  with puppy-dog eyes, trying to connect with the woman who dumped him because he knows he's the best match for her.  Walking around, sad-faced, mumbling, writing poems, trying to figure out the perfect romantic gesture that will win her back.  

[PetuniaP]

An interesting, well-written take on yesterdays events. The summary is Andi wasn't slut-shamed, she was asshole-shamed. Lol. 

 

http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-07-29/some-thoughts-on-the-bachelorettes-shocking-finale-slut-shaming-andi-dorfman/

I could have written that article...bravo to the author. I know all's fair in love and war and that Nick getting his heart terrifically broken twice now right about engagement time is probably due to him falling too hard too fast. But I sure as heck hope he finds a girl who falls back just as hard and they live happily ever after. Or barring that....I hope I see him in the next Bachelor contestant mash-up getting loved up and making chicks cry. 

[Jaundiced Eye]

Thank you for saying this so I didn't have to. :) That said, I'm actually very impressed with this forum that there hasn't been much of this kind of talk. Cultural progress! For the record, I will be the first person to scream "slut shaming" if I think it's happening. In this case, though, I think Andi sleeping with Nick was just her being a selfish dick.

 

Maybe it is "cultural progress" or maybe it's a form of devolution. Basically, we're little more than dumb animals (and I give you Andi Dorfman as Exhibit A to that proposition). Why not regress to the lowest common denominator? No one would dream of calling a monkey or a rabbit a slut. Why should humans be expected to live by a higher standard?