S05.E16: The Adirondacks

[Jax7917]

10 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

I find this show so annoying with it's righteous attempts to show them all working so hard to get it all right. They work so hard at becoming apologetic perfect siblings and so hard at being perfect sons and daughters, and so hard at being perfect partners. 

Where I grew up and when I grew up, if all that talk went on to sort relationships out, the family would have walked away and said "shut up." And my dad would have listened and said "And now what? Do you need a swift kick in the ass now?" 

They spend so much energy talking and talking and working on it all, how do they ever have time to actually live? 

Yes yes and yes !
 

Rebecca Is always the perfect mother and always trying to say the perfect things not to make her grown kids angry . 

Randall always needs an apology from everyone and for them to “ do better “ , even though he has a  pretty awesome family . No one ever understands him enough . 
 

Beth always kisses her kids butts rather than tell them they’re acting spoiled and entitled and it’s not all about you . Looking at you , Tess 👀. 
 

Kevin always needs to be the knight in shining armor and starts every episode doing or saying the wrong thing which never even seems so wrong to me .. only to end the episode with a speech saying the perfect words to whoever it is at the moment that wants to hear them . 
 

Jack is king of trying to be perfect at all times and it’s so annoying . No parent says or does the perfect thing alllll the time .. but he broke the mold . 🙄 

I love the show . It’s well written and gets a tear out of me most episodes . But realistic it’s not . I’m waiting for a sibling to say “ shut the hell up “ and not apologize for it with a monologue . Or for Jack and Rebecca to mess up and just be like , “ well shit happens , get over it .” 
it’s just all too robotic and takes the human out of these characters . 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Jax7917

[FnkyChkn34]

33 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Councilmen in Philly make low six figures so Randall is doing fine. (I would also guess selling their Alpine house would have netted them enough to pay cash in Philly, and I would hope he banked a lot of what he made as a trader.)

Sure, that's enough to support him living in Philadelphia.  But they are basically a one salary household, and it's not "movie star Kevin money."  Hopefully they banked a lot when he was a trader and she was an attorney.  (Was she ever actually a practicing attorney?)  Their new house in Philly was definitely expensive, plus the failed dance studio.  Randall is living well enough, but what about Kate?  She lives in southern California on a part-time music teacher's salary?  I missed a few episodes, so maybe she's full-time, but they aren't making enough to even afford the house they live in (in the real world), let alone everything else. 

But fictional television shows seem to ignore the real world and how much stuff actually costs...

[PRgal]

24 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

It's really amazing to me how little insight the show has given us into Tess.

There haven't been a lot of queer Black teenage girls on television, let alone queer Black teenage girls in interracial relationships with non-binary people. There's so much potential material there - like for example, does Tess still identify as a lesbian, even though she's dating someone who isn't female?

But instead it looks like the only thought the writers put into it was, "Let's make her a spoiled brat to create some tension with Beth.

But Alex was born female?  Maybe that’s why Tess still uses lesbian?  It’s such a confusing world these days.  I have to be honest, but my head spins half the time.  I can understand why Beth is the way she is. 

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

Being a lesbian who doesn't like feminine dresses does not mean she dictates the bride's choice of bridesmaids dresses the DAY OF her wedding.  It's one night to wear a dress of the bride's choosing, not to sourpuss and have your mom alter the bride's choice of dress.

She's 13 and didn't really know how wrong it felt until she put the dress on.  She was trying though.  She was willing to power through until Beth intervened.  She is right in the middle of figuring things out about herself and how she wants to present herself to the world.  In time she will decide how feminine she wants to present and she will also learn how to suck it up for one day.  She just is not there yet.  We see in the flashforward that adult Tess does wear dresses.  

[Empress1]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

(Was she ever actually a practicing attorney?) 

She's not/never has been a lawyer; she worked in urban planning.

7 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

what about Kate?  She lives in southern California on a part-time music teacher's salary?  I missed a few episodes, so maybe she's full-time, but they aren't making enough to even afford the house they live in (in the real world), let alone everything else. 

She's still part-time, and Toby said point blank this episode that they couldn't keep going the way they were going. As has been said, Toby would be getting unemployment and would likely have gotten severance. He's also mentioned savings, but all three of those things run out. Kate said this episode that they weren't saving because they couldn't afford it. What they're doing isn't sustainable, as Toby pointed out. You don't want to not save if you can help it.

[Boo Boo]

13 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

She's 13 and didn't really know how wrong it felt until she put the dress on.  She was trying though.  She was willing to power through until Beth intervened.  She is right in the middle of figuring things out about herself and how she wants to present herself to the world.  In time she will decide how feminine she wants to present and she will also learn how to suck it up for one day.  She just is not there yet.  We see in the flashforward that adult Tess does wear dresses.  

Right -- she wears dresses.  So it's a matter of not liking the dress she was in versus being a lesbian that won't wear a dress because they don't identify with wearing dresses.

The real failure here though was Beth.  Instead of saying, "Yes, everyone hates bridesmaids dresses. Wipe the sourpuss off your face and realize it's not your day and you're only goig to wear this dress for a few hours."

Instead, Beth doesn't consult the bride -- bamboozling Kevin doesn't count -- and does what the fuck she wants because her dress wearing daughter doesn't like the frilly dress.

I understand that her daughter has Beth walking on eggshells b/c she thinks Beth doesn't support her relationship with a non-binary person, but this isn't the Beth we know on this show.  And being lesbian doesn't mean everyone has to tiptoe around your ass and treat you differently because of your sexuality either. Because if Annie was upset over a bridesmaid dress, she would've told Annie this isn't YOUR day, so deal with it.

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Boo Boo

[TV Diva Queen]

1 hour ago, JayDub1987 said:

Hell yes! I looked at my wife the other night and said, "Are we sure we want kids," and we already have two! Any parent who acts like they're always thrilled with how their kids act is a liar. I've got a 9 year old and an 11 month old and it's frickin' trying sometimes! Toby said what every parent on earth has said at least once a week.

mine at 19 and 21 - home a week from college and I pretty much am reading for them to go back.  The older one has a year lease at a townhouse complex (at school) with a built in pool and I'm like "go.....go swim in your pool and play with your school friends, I'm over you being home"  LOL (I'm greek and italian and that is my love language to them....I'd die for them, but dang, they can be trying at time0

[JayDub1987]

2 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

mine at 19 and 21 - home a week from college and I pretty much am reading for them to go back.  The older one has a year lease at a townhouse complex (at school) with a built in pool and I'm like "go.....go swim in your pool and play with your school friends, I'm over you being home"  LOL (I'm greek and italian and that is my love language to them....I'd die for them, but dang, they can be trying at time0

Yes! I'd lay down my life for my kids, but when you've got an 11 month old screaming and a 9 year old really likes being the center of attention, it can get stressful. Toby didn't say anything that we haven't all thought.

When I was 20 (and still living at home) my dad looked at me one day and said, "So, when do you plan on moving out?" lol

[Crs97]

I once heard a reporter who was writing a book on his attempt to parent solo while his wife took a few weeks away to finish her book.  He said he started the process  thinking how hard could this be? and ended it asking himself when I love these children so much and would die for them, why is my happiest moment seeing their backs as they walk away from me into school each morning?.  Still makes me chuckle.

[ifionlyknew]

9 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

And being lesbian doesn't mean everyone has to tiptoe around your ass and treat you differently because of your sexuality either.

I haven't seen anyone say or do anything that warrants the exasperation Tess shows towards everyone anymore.  This is all new to them too. So if she wants them to understand her then she needs to understand they are still learning.

[Chewy101]

58 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

They really missed an opportunity to show why Tess was upset when she saw herself in that dress.  At least to me, she felt wrong in that very feminine dress, a wrongness that goes beyond a teen being bratty.  I wish the show would have actually gone there instead of what we got.  That dress is not the type of woman Tess wants to present to the world, and I get that.  The issue is deeper than she plain just doesn't like the dress. 

Personally, whatever her pubescent issue was, being a sulky downer on everyone else's day shows how spoiled she is. She could have shared all of her feelings with a trusted loved one and still rallied for the sake of Everyone Who Is Not Tess. 

ETA: I don't want to disrespect what you are saying about how Tess feels about wearing what feels like a "costume." But the reality is it WAS a costume. No need for an identity crisis. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Chewy101

[Boo Boo]

11 minutes ago, JayDub1987 said:

Yes! I'd lay down my life for my kids, but when you've got an 11 month old screaming and a 9 year old really likes being the center of attention, it can get stressful. Toby didn't say anything that we haven't all thought.

When I was 20 (and still living at home) my dad looked at me one day and said, "So, when do you plan on moving out?" lol

I have a 19 year old and I've sent my daughter links to apartment complexes for future consideration! 

And then I start getting panic attacks thinking about when she does move out and I miss her terribly!

 

[JayDub1987]

3 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

I have a 19 year old and I've sent my daughter links to apartment complexes for future consideration! 

And then I start getting panic attacks thinking about when she does move out and I miss her terribly!

 

LOL, I'm sure I'll feel the same way. But during quarantine, I was wondering if I could get my (then 8 year old) into college early hahaha

[bichonblitz]

13 hours ago, nixgirl28 said:

Damn, they did Toby dirty.

Maybe Toby cheated on Kate while he was working in San Francisco, Kate divorced him and hooked up with obnoxious teacher after that. Time will tell. 

[PRgal]

8 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

I have a 19 year old and I've sent my daughter links to apartment complexes for future consideration! 

And then I start getting panic attacks thinking about when she does move out and I miss her terribly!

 

I come from a culture where “kids” often live at home until they marry (and those like me who went away to school move back home after graduation) /get a job out of town and couldn’t wait to marry!  I finally married at 30 (about a week and a half or so before my 31st).  Not sure if my parents were relieved or sad that I finally left or not.  They will never admit it. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Jax7917 said:

I agree with the theory above that maybe it’s a vow renewal for Toby and Kate and there’s more to the “future brother in law “ comment than what we’re led to think . It just seems weird for the show to have Kate and Toby divorce in the end after everything .. but I guess we shall see . 

Check out the spoilers/spec thread. Fogelman spells it out pretty clearly, so unless he's outright lying, this is what it appears to be - Kate and British Guy's wedding.

[ams1001]

10 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

(and why is she a bridesmaid, by the way? 

Eh, my best friend's wedding party consisted of her two nieces and her husband's three, ranging in age from 8 to 17. They all got to wear whatever they wanted. The little one looked like she could have been a flower girl in a traditional wedding; the teenagers looked like they could be going to a school dance (but not the prom). But then their wedding was in a public gazebo at the waterfront in town (where most of the guests had to stand), my friend wore a white cotton sundress (and was 5 months pregnant), and her husband wore khakis and a short-sleeve shirt (it was a button-down, which is pretty dressed up for him). 

4 hours ago, JayDub1987 said:

Thank. You! What an absolute twat waffle move by Rebecca. I know she can pipe up in two weeks and say she "forgot" all about saying that, but she legit stood there and told Randall he was her favorite. I mean, it had always been pretty obvious, but as someone with multiple children, I can't fathom telling one of them I love them more than the other. Hell, there might be days where I think it, but you don't say that shit out loud. 

The one redeeming thing was the others weren't around to hear it. My mom calls me her favorite daughter...and my brother her favorite son. But there's only the two of us. ;) 

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Of all the weddings I've been in and attended, I have never seen the wedding planner just hand over dresses to the bridesmaids the day of the wedding without any prior fittings (meaning the bridesmaids had never seen them until then). At one wedding, the bride bought all of the bridesmaid dresses for the girls who lived out of town (including me) and then sent them to us MONTHS in advance so that we could have them hemmed/fitted/otherwise altered if necessary.

I've been in two weddings. As flower girl for my cousin when I was 7, my grandmother made my dress. As an adult I would hate to have to wear a grown-up version of that dress (which the bridesmaids did) but as a little kid I loved it, because I got to twirl on the dance floor (until my aunt stepped on my foot, at least). As a bridesmaid for my friend, her mom ordered the dresses and had them shipped to us, we paid her back for the cost of the dress only (not shipping), which was fairly inexpensive as such things go, and I had to spend about $45 to get it altered to fit properly. Then it hung in the basement for a few years until it got donated.

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I’m also calling Kate out for getting mad at “I love my children, but.”

I hated her reaction to that. She stopped listening at "but." She can't possibly honestly say that she never had those moments in the ~two(?) years since Jack was born and she's been home with him most of the time.

3 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I was smirking to myself because I've always thought brides should pay for their bridesmaids' attire, unless they're letting them wear what they like (like my friend was in a wedding where she was asked to wear a black cocktail-length dress, so she just wore one she already owned). I know that's not how we do it here, but shelling out hundreds for a dress you didn't pick out and will only wear once does suck.

I have a family friend who had 11 bridesmaids and they all wore white (but at least they each got to choose their dress). Thank god I wasn't one of them. One of my friends did the best thing and chose two piece dresses, so each 'maid could get the skirt with a top that suited their body shape. They still had to pay for them, but at least they got to be comfortable in what they were wearing. (Even her wedding dress was two pieces, and came with a pair of pants, which she changed into toward the end of the reception.)

1 hour ago, Boo Boo said:

On the plot point, than it turns out she just didn't like the dress, which is why I'm confused Beth thought she had to capitulate to her on this unless the writers think her being lesbian means she has to disliked frilly dresses?  

I wouldn't even call it particularly "frilly"...other than being pink and the flower applique, it was a pretty simple dress. I wonder if she would have complained if it was a less girly color to begin with.

[Bumblebee84047]

3 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I totally want to see an episode of Nicky and Miguel on a road trip together.

I would watch the Hell out of that!

[Boo Boo]

9 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

I wouldn't even call it particularly "frilly"...other than being pink and the flower applique, it was a pretty simple dress. I wonder if she would have complained if it was a less girly color to begin with.

I agree -- it's just that it appears that they are insinuating that her sexuality is the reason for not liking the dress and that's why Beth bent over backwards capitulating to her.  And that the dress may be too frilly, too girly for her sexual identity. 

But then we see that Beth just dresses down the girly dress because god forbid her lesbian daughter where something she doesn't like because of her sexuality.   As if lesbians only want to wear masculine pantsuits.  

Edited May 26, 2021 by Boo Boo

[perkie1968]

15 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

I have a 19 year old and I've sent my daughter links to apartment complexes for future consideration! 

And then I start getting panic attacks thinking about when she does move out and I miss her terribly!

Oh my gosh, this is my life right here!!!!  "when are you leaving.....please don't go.....why haven't you left yet....."

 

47 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

She's 13 and didn't really know how wrong it felt until she put the dress on.  

But i have to think that they had all tried on the dresses before the day of the wedding.  That would have been the time to mention an issue with the dress at a time when they could have made some changes to accomodate what she feels more comfortable wearing while still matching the other girls' dresses.  

 

49 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

She was willing to power through until Beth intervened. 

No she wasn't.  The minute the dresses showed up she made a face and then continued with the sulking after the dress was on.  Beth only intervened because she's been walking on eggshells with Tess for weeks.  

 

50 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

  In time she will decide how feminine she wants to present and she will also learn how to suck it up for one day.  She just is not there yet

If she's not there yet, than she's not mature enough to be dating or behaving like that.  

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, bichonblitz said:

Maybe Toby cheated on Kate while he was working in San Francisco, Kate divorced him and hooked up with obnoxious teacher after that. Time will tell. 

Toby would never cheat on Kate, would he?  He only thought of Kara as a friend, you can't really blame him if she thought it was more.  

In all seriousness, Toby was willing to emotionally cheat on Kate so I can see him taking it further.  

[DoubleUTeeEff]

5 minutes ago, Bumblebee84047 said:

3 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I totally want to see an episode of Nicky and Miguel on a road trip together.

I would watch the Hell out of that!

Maybe they can go find Sally together!

3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Toby would never cheat on Kate, would he?  He only thought of Kara as a friend, you can't really blame him if she thought it was more.  

In all seriousness, Toby was willing to emotionally cheat on Kate so I can see him taking it further.  

It seems like Kate's the one headed for an emotional affair with her future husband if she's getting re-married in 5 years. Toby will be gone 3 days a week and she'll be overwhelmed and need someone to lean on. Of course Toby could get up to something too. I hope they don't go that way though.

Speaking of Kate's future husband, I hope he starts every conversation with Kate like he has so far, "I never wanted you. You had zero qualifications."

[ams1001]

5 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

But then we see that Beth just dresses down the girly dress because god forbid her lesbian daughter where something she doesn't like because of her sexuality.   As if lesbians want to wear masculine pantsuits.  

Yeah, that's annoying. While teen Tess doesn't seem to have a super feminine wardrobe, she still does wear "girl" clothes. (Mostly I think we've seen her in jeans and sweaters, but she's not trying to look androgynous or anything like that.) I used to work with a woman who looked very much the stereotypical "butch lesbian" (I don't think I ever saw her in anything other than jeans and a plaid shirt, but then she worked remotely and I only saw her every six weeks or so), while her wife dressed very feminine. And they didn't really tell the audience what Tess's issue was with the dress, other than it not being "her." I know the mantra is "show don't tell" but sometimes you have to use your words.

3 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

It seems like Kate's the one headed for an emotional affair with her future husband if she's getting re-married in 5 years. Toby will be gone 3 days a week and she'll be overwhelmed and need someone to lean on. Of course Toby could get up to something too. I hope they don't go that way though.

I hope they don't go there. Their marriage could fall apart over a year or two, she could get with The Brit some months after they divorce, and they could still be together for a year or two before getting married. The five year timeline can work without cheating, or even thinking of cheating.

[Rootbeer]

12 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

That's correct.

I just realized that Tess would have seen (and tried on/had altered) her bridesmaid dress in California in the time between the bachelorette party and the wedding.

Tess also would've had more than enough time to talk to Madison about her misgivings re:the dress and give Madison the opportunity to approve any changes she wanted to make and have it done professionally prior to the day of the wedding. Tess is a bright young woman, there is no way she doesn't understand that the dresses worn by the bridesmaids are chosen by the bride and that it is rude to openly complain about it.  You wear the dress and suck it up, it is one day out of your life but it is not your day; so shut it and wear what the bride wants you to wear.

[ifionlyknew]

17 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

As if lesbians only want to wear masculine pantsuits.  

Thank you.  There are lesbians who enjoy dressing in a feminine way.

[Mldh598]

11 hours ago, bybrandy said:

 

 

I really did expect that Kate would be married by 2030, at least, but I really thought it was going to be Timothy Omundson not the music teacher.   

 

Wow - I never considered that possibility, despite the fact that I really like the relationship beteween the two.

[Boo Boo]

3 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Yeah, that's annoying. While teen Tess doesn't seem to have a super feminine wardrobe, she still does wear "girl" clothes. (Mostly I think we've seen her in jeans and sweaters, but she's not trying to look androgynous or anything like that.) I used to work with a woman who looked very much the stereotypical "butch lesbian" (I don't think I ever saw her in anything other than jeans and a plaid shirt, but then she worked remotely and I only saw her every six weeks or so), while her wife dressed very feminine. And they didn't really tell the audience what Tess's issue was with the dress, other than it not being "her." I know the mantra is "show don't tell" but sometimes you have to use your words.

I hope they don't go there. Their marriage could fall apart over a year or two, she could get with The Brit some months after they divorce, and they could still be together for a year or two before getting married. The five year timeline can work without cheating, or even thinking of cheating.

Right -- I know lesbians that are very feminine and others that aren't!  

And yes, it does seem like a short timeline for a breakup, a relationship and a new marriage. That said, I know several people that divorced and then were remarried (no cheating involved) within a couple of years.  Some people just *can't* be alone.

Stupid question b/c maybe we've seen future old Toby already and I just can't remember.

Is it possible Toby dies?  He had that heart condition.  Maybe they make a young Kate with 2 kids a widow for a couple of years?

[izabella]

45 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

One of my friends did the best thing and chose two piece dresses, so each 'maid could get the skirt with a top that suited their body shape.

I thought that was Tess's problem with the dress, because the first thing that I thought when I saw her in it was that the top did not fit her well and was the wrong kind of neckline and cut for her body type.  First, it looked too tight on top, so I imagine that was uncomfortable.  Then, the style of that top was better for someone less curvy.  Annie looked cute in her dress, and Deja looked pretty, but Tess looked frumpy and matronly! 

I didn't think her rude and sour attitude about the dress had anything to do with her sexuality, except for Beth's reaction to her.  Beth has been tiptoeing around Tess's nasty attitude toward her for months, and has been bending over backwards to show her that she loves and accepts her and her sexuality without reservation.  But Tess has been looking for reasons to hate on her, so Beth bent over backwards again to appease her becasue that's their relationship now.

This episode left me feeling sad and angry.  Madison's childhood was lonely and heartbreaking with her mother just abandoning her, while her dad neglected and diminished her.  I don't blame her for not wanting to marry someone who wasn't in love with her and agree she did the right thing to call the wedding off.  But it made me very sad for her.  When the Pearsons are the only "family" you have, your life sucks.

Rebecca made me angry first by pushing Randall to talk to her the day of Kevin's wedding when Randall is the best man, and then by telling him he's the most important person to her.  Jeez, lady, spare a thought for your other kids sometime, like when you are at one of their weddings!  "Kevin?  Where's Kevin?  Oh, he drowned!"  And then she had the nerve to tell Kevin she wanted him to build  Jack's dream house for her.

I'm also fed up with Randall and his birth parents, especially Laurel.  You're an adult and have one living parent who raised you and loves you best.  Get over yourself.  Focus on your own Big 3 because one of them is a self-centered sourpuss who is rude to everyone who isn't her girlfriend, one of them is jealous of the mother of her nearly adult boyfriend's child, and one of them doesn't exist for you until she excels at bowling.

So does Kate end up with the house in the divorce?  Because didn't we see a flashforward of Jack playing music in that garage in some episode?

Edited May 26, 2021 by izabella

[Rootbeer]

9 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

Right -- I know lesbians that are very feminine and others that aren't!  

And yes, it does seem like a short timeline for a breakup, a relationship and a new marriage. That said, I know several people that divorced and then were remarried (no cheating involved) within a couple of years.  Some people just *can't* be alone.

Stupid question b/c maybe we've seen future old Toby already and I just can't remember.

Is it possible Toby dies?  He had that heart condition.  Maybe they make a young Kate with 2 kids a widow for a couple of years?

We did see Toby in the future, in 2030, at Rebecca's deathbed, so we know he doesn't die before then.

I know straight women who dress very feminine and others who don't.  I've got a friend who is straight, married 30+ years to a guy, has 3 kids and hasn't worn a dress in decades.  She doesn't like to wear them, so she doesn't-ever.  One of her kids is getting married and she has a lovely tailored pantsuit for the occasion.  Had there been the possibility of wearing pants to her own wedding back in the day, she would've done so.  As it was, she chose the simplest, plainest, non-frilly wedding dress she could find because that is who she is.

All sorts of people have all sorts of preferences when it comes to clothing and it is reductive to presume that anyone's choice of clothing styles is indicative of their sexuality.  And Tess needs to realize that everyone who sees her in her bridesmaid's dress will know that the bride picked it out, not her, because that is how it goes when one is a wedding attendant.

[izabella]

Oh, and I was also very sad and angry for Madison at the end.  The entire family, including her best friend Kate, is hanging with Kevin and commiserating with him, so was Madison alone with the twins?  She is the one who is heartbroken because she IS in love with Kevin and had to call off her wedding because he doesn't feel the same way.  SHE is the one who is hurt and alone and needs someone, like maybe her best friend, to help her.  Instead, she's all alone, sad, and dealing with two babies. 

 

[cameron]

15 minutes ago, izabella said:

I thought that was Tess's problem with the dress, because the first thing that I thought when I saw her in it was that the top did not fit her well and was the wrong kind of neckline and cut for her body type.  First, it looked too tight on top, so I imagine that was uncomfortable.  Then, the style of that top was better for someone less curvy.  Annie looked cute in her dress, and Deja looked pretty, but Tess looked frumpy and matronly! 

I didn't think her rude and sour attitude about the dress had anything to do with her sexuality, except for Beth's reaction to her.  Beth has been tiptoeing around Tess's nasty attitude toward her for months, and has been bending over backwards to show her that she loves and accepts her and her sexuality without reservation.  But Tess has been looking for reasons to hate on her, so Beth bent over backwards again to appease her becasue that's their relationship now.

This episode left me feeling sad and angry.  Madison's childhood was lonely and heartbreaking with her mother just abandoning her, while her dad neglected and diminished her.  I don't blame her for not wanting to marry someone who wasn't in love with her and agree she did the right thing to call the wedding off.  But it made me very sad for her.  When the Pearsons are the only "family" you have, your life sucks.

Rebecca made me angry first by pushing Randall to talk to her the day of Kevin's wedding when Randall is the best man, and then by telling him he's the most important person to her.  Jeez, lady, spare a thought for your other kids sometime, like when you are at one of their weddings!  "Kevin?  Where's Kevin?  Oh, he drowned!"  And then she had the nerve to tell Kevin she wanted him to build  Jack's dream house for her.

I'm also fed up with Randall and his birth parents, especially Laurel.  You're an adult and have one living parent who raised you and loves you best.  Get over yourself.  Focus on your own Big 3 because one of them is a self-centered sourpuss who is rude to everyone who isn't her girlfriend, one of them is jealous of the mother of her nearly adult boyfriend's child, and one of them doesn't exist for you until she excels at bowling.

So does Kate end up with the house in the divorce?  Because didn't we see a flashforward of Jack playing music in that garage in some episode?

Rebecca got to realize that she is married to someone else and has been for quite a few years.  To ask her son to build her very late husband's dream house for her has to make Miquel feel really good about himself and their marriage.  Get over it Rebecca, who are married to someone else.

[AriAu]

Quote

In all seriousness, Toby was willing to emotionally cheat on Kate so I can see him taking it further.

Quote

It seems like Kate's the one headed for an emotional affair with her future husband if she's getting re-married in 5 years. Toby will be gone 3 days a week and she'll be overwhelmed and need someone to lean on. Of course Toby could get up to something too. I hope they don't go that way though.

Whatever it is, and whomever is to blame, we can all agree that it is just really, really, NOT going to be pleasant watching their marriage explode, dissolve and/or wither away, especially with how loving they were in this episode.

A couple of things from the flashback(s):

1. Kevin really hasn't aged in those 5 years and Kate also looked exactly the same.

2. Kevin and Madison must be getting along pretty darn well because she was awfully friendly or she forgot that she was supposed to be mad.

3. There must have been a pretty busy baby sitter who had all 4 of those kids since the moms and dads were otherwise occupied....and no way was Toby there.

4. By the way, no way did Toby cheat, because he would not have been welcome in the 2030 flashback.

Mandy Moore showed some serious acting chops this episode....not just the Randall scene (both were great, not shocking for SKB, but for her, it was something)...but even at the end. Did she decide Kevin should build her that house just because Uncle Nicky bought the now useless Adirondacks???a

ETA

Quote

Is it possible Toby dies?  He had that heart condition.  Maybe they make a young Kate with 2 kids a widow for a couple of years?

Not possible-he was alive in 2030 Flashback

Edited May 26, 2021 by AriAu

[Boo Boo]

9 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

We did see Toby in the future, in 2030, at Rebecca's deathbed, so we know he doesn't die before then.

I know straight women who dress very feminine and others who don't.  I've got a friend who is straight, married 30+ years to a guy, has 3 kids and hasn't worn a dress in decades.  She doesn't like to wear them, so she doesn't-ever.  One of her kids is getting married and she has a lovely tailored pantsuit for the occasion.  Had there been the possibility of wearing pants to her own wedding back in the day, she would've done so.  As it was, she chose the simplest, plainest, non-frilly wedding dress she could find because that is who she is.

All sorts of people have all sorts of preferences when it comes to clothing and it is reductive to presume that anyone's choice of clothing styles is indicative of their sexuality.  And Tess needs to realize that everyone who sees her in her bridesmaid's dress will know that the bride picked it out, not her, because that is how it goes when one is a wedding attendant.

Ah ha!  I thought we did see a Toby in the future but couldn't remember where.

I agree it is reductive, but that's where the show is leading us to.  The show has made it clear that Tess thinks Beth doesn't approve, doesn't understand, and there's been tension because of that.  The Beth we know isn't going to rush right out to change a bridesmaid dress because her daughter doesn't like it.   So it's pretty clear the reason WHY Beth did what she did is she thought this dress dislike had at least *something* to do with Tess's sexuality.  

[Good Queen Jane]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

Oh, and I was also very sad and angry for Madison at the end.  The entire family, including her best friend Kate, is hanging with Kevin and commiserating with him, so was Madison alone with the twins?  She is the one who is heartbroken because she IS in love with Kevin and had to call off her wedding because he doesn't feel the same way.  SHE is the one who is hurt and alone and needs someone, like maybe her best friend, to help her.  Instead, she's all alone, sad, and dealing with two babies. 

Kate said that Madison had sent her to check on Kevin because Madison was worried about him.

[Empress1]

9 hours ago, AriAu said:

1. Kevin really hasn't aged in those 5 years and Kate also looked exactly the same.

They all did, including Kate's new fiance. If Kevin hadn't said he was a 45-year-old man, I wouldn't have known 5 years was supposed to have passed. I think they skipped the aging makeup for that scene.

9 hours ago, AriAu said:

Kevin and Madison must be getting along pretty darn well because she was awfully friendly or she forgot that she was supposed to be mad.

Why would she be mad?

9 hours ago, AriAu said:

There must have been a pretty busy baby sitter who had all 4 of those kids since the moms and dads were otherwise occupied....and no way was Toby there.

Randall's kids could have been looking after them - all three would be old enough to be left with elementary-school-aged kids. Deja would be 20 in the flash-forward. I forget how old Tess and Annie are supposed to be in 2020 - I think Tess is 13 and Annie is 9 or 10? So 20, 18, and 15-ish in 2025 - plenty old enough to watch their younger cousins.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Empress1

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Kate gets with her boss, who I hope stops being her boss when they get into a relationship, 

I was actually a little confused as to why Kate was giving him her resignation.  Doesn't she work for the school and not the teacher?  Shouldn't she give her resignation to the principal or headmaster? 

 

2 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I also liked the "Children of the Corn" pose.

I liked that little moment because they did seem pretty darn creepy just silently watching their parents sleep. 

[JudyObscure]

I've liked Toby from the very first.  His sense of humor and his natural, carefree style  is  refreshing when the Pearsons are taking themselves too seriously.  So I didn't like Kate getting mad at him over, 'I love my kids, but," and I thought she was awful to him after Jack was born when he admitted that every time he looked at Jack he felt sad.  It's his feelings and they come from love, so give the man a little time.  Toby always gets it wrong as far as Kate is concerned, starting with wanting to watch football with her when clearly she wants to be alone to watch it with her dead father's ashes!  

I like Kate and want her to be happy but I'm going to miss Toby.

19 minutes ago, cameron said:

 To ask her son to build her very late husband's dream house for her has to make Miquel feel really good about himself and their marriage.

Plus, if she really must  have that particular plan built, it's Miguel who has been building houses all his life.

I still love the Pearsons, but If Toby, Miguel, Madison and Beth want to start their own spin-off I'll be there.

[madmax]

Wow, that was  a lot of reading...

Just about everything I could say has been said, so I'll just stick to a few points.

Tess was an obnoxious brat who couldn't remove the chip from her shoulder for a couple hours.  Yes, the dress wasn't "her," but bridesmaid's dresses rarely are.  She had plenty of time to voice her opinion before the big day.   Beth should have just told her to deal for a few hours.  It wasn't a slight to her sexuality, it was a dress.  I don't like what they've done with Beth this season.  There are better ways to deal with a gay child than how they're portraying Beth.

Sad about Toby and Kate.  I like Toby better than Kate (WAY better).  

And again, every day is Randall day, even his brother's wedding.  Sigh.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

21 minutes ago, AriAu said:

 

2. Kevin and Madison must be getting along pretty darn well because she was awfully friendly or she forgot that she was supposed to be mad.

 

While I would prefer Kevin marrying Madison over Sophie, I think the show is going into the right direction with them co-parenting.  One thing I was uneasy with making Madison the mother of Kevin's kids is how the show would make Madison more than the egg donor and surrogate for them.  They look to be a good place in the 2026 flashforward.  Madison is also still part of the Pearson family even if she is not wed to Kevin.  So if the writers do go there and Kevin marries Sophie, Nick and Franny are still Madison's kids as well as Kevin's. MMV, but that distinction matters to me.  

[izabella]

24 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

Kate said that Madison had sent her to check on Kevin because Madison was worried about him.

Oh, good!  I must have missed that.   Now I can at least feel better about that part.

[Janie430]

In Rebecca's defense, she seems like she's been trying to have the conversation with Randall for a week, and he's been ducking her.  Randall was leaving the next day, so she had to pin him down that day.  And I've been waiting for Rebecca to say that she justified her lying about Randall's parents on the basis of the fact that they were addicts, so I was happy about that.

But they're writing Randall as romanticizing Laurel, and it is annoying.  She was an addict.  She messed up, and ended up in jail for five years.  She then self-destructed for the next 30 until she died.  Nicky self-destructed for 50. William self-destructed on and off for 30 years (since he was an active addict when Randall was being adopted, he was sober six years later when Rebecca went to see him in Philly, and then the show seems to have thought he would have been using again when Randall was 18 in the Sliding Doors episode).  

I love that this show is about showing how the past shapes us and people don't just "get over" some things, but does no one in the Pearsons' world ever move on from anything really bad?  Or rebuild their life?  You can build a life that's better than living alone on a vegetable farm for 30 years and still regret not reaching out to your child who you might have thought was already in a stable loving family.  Or go the William way and show her as a relapsing addict, not that she just wallowed for 30 years.

[geauxaway]

2 hours ago, JayDub1987 said:

Yes! I'd lay down my life for my kids, but when you've got an 11 month old screaming and a 9 year old really likes being the center of attention, it can get stressful. Toby didn't say anything that we haven't all thought.

100% this!  
 

We don’t even know how Toby was going to finish that sentence because she never even let him!   I love our kids BUT I miss working, I wasn’t cut out for the full time house husband thing, I had a career that I loved and a talent that I am really good at.  

[Boo Boo]

16 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I still love the Pearsons, but If Toby, Miguel, Madison and Beth want to start their own spin-off I'll be there.

I have a love/hate thing going with this show, but I would watch the shit out of a spinoff show -- with hopes that Milo V has NOTHING to do with it.

Often I think the reason why I hate Jack so much is I CANNOT stand Milo V.'s acting and how he throws his voice in a lower register which sounds annoying AF to me.

[geauxaway]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

But fictional television shows seem to ignore the real world and how much stuff actually costs...

Um, health insurance for a newborn and special needs toddler??  Not to mention his own meds.  COBRA is expensive AF for a family.

[ams1001]

26 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Why would she be mad?

Yeah, I think she was more hurt and sad, but she already knew Kevin didn't feel the way she wanted him to, and it was clear he didn't want to lie to her. But in the flash forward they've had five years to get to know each other while raising their kids together; I can certainly see them getting to a good place in five years, whatever the nature of their relationship turns out to be by then.

[JudyObscure]

I agree with those who think Tess's dress drama should have been immediately shot down by Beth.

Besides, the idea that the remodeled, diagonally torn dress was edgy and new is just laughable since we first saw that look worn by Molly Ringwald, 31 year ago  in "Betsy's  Wedding." 

 

 

[marceline]

I'll be interested to see what the fallout is for Kevin from a canceled wedding given how his engagement was on the cover of a tabloid. We know he's got that terrible movie coming out which would mean he'd be doing a lot of media and this is the type of thing that would be all over the internet. It would also make Madison's life hell because....who turns down the Manny? Kevin's fans would basically turn her into Kristen Stewart after Robert Pattinson.

 

[General Days]

Here's my deal with the Tess dress storyline. It was a bad choice by the writers.

I can't even engage enough with Beth and Tess in this episode, because it was such an obvious contrivance to show Beth to be the good, loving, accepting mom we all already know she is. (Even Tess at her most sullen knows that, which is why she feels so free to act out. She knows she is loved unconditionally by both of her parents. She just has to consciously accept that they accept her for who she is.)

Since Tess hasn't identified as non-binary thus far (and if she does in the future, she doesn't eschew dressing femme of her own volition, at least sometimes), the whole story muddied the water between her sexuality (gay) and her gender identity (which the show has not had her question), when the two aren't the same thing. 

And the writing took a cheap way out to show the thing they didn't really need to show in this episode (i.e. that Beth is the good, loving, accepting mom we all already know she is). They had her alter the dress in a wedding they (the writers) already knew wasn't going to come off. There were no stakes for them (the writers). 

It was an unforced error by the writers, that just made Tess look like a brat and Beth look overly indulgent. And I think it trivialized the problems of trans and non-binary kids.

It might have worked better to have Madison notice Tess was (quietly) unhappy, pull Beth aside, and Beth could have told Madison she thinks Tess is still working out who she is.

Madison could have then told Beth to do whatever she wanted to the dress to make Tess happy -- that weddings should be about love, not appearances,. THAT could have then tied into Madison's own decision not to settle.

Beth could have then made over the dress to Tess's liking, and they still could have had their moment, where Tess finally realized Beth is on her side.

 

14 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Given that he was trying for a Princess Bride Priest impression I was thinking he's officiating.

 

 

I took it as Kevin preparing to give a toast, but yeah, he could be officiating. 

 

14 hours ago, Bulldog said:

 For a show that airs on NBC, they sure did reference alot of ABC programs. 

 

 

Like the original Dynasty series, This Is Us comes out of what was known as 20th Television from 2016-2020, and at some point prior to that, it was 20th Century Fox. Fox (the broadcast network, not the studio) passed on This Is Us, originally, so NBC picked it up.

Muddying things further, Disney (which also owns ABC) bought 20th Television in 2020, and I'm pretty sure they folded it under Disney-ABC TV. So because This Is Us isn't produced at NBC-Universal, it is not as weird as it first appears. NBC doesn't own This Is Us, in other words. The network owns the rights to air its first run.

 

3 hours ago, LeighLeigh said:

Just curious how many teenagers you have? I have three. This is extremely realistic. It is always interesting to hear parenting advice from people who aren’t parents. 

 

You didn't ask me, but I have young adult kids. If Tess was one of them, and was NOT non-binary, I wouldn't have indulged her distaste for a bridesmaid dress on the day of a wedding.

If my kid were non-binary, I would have told the prospective bride and groom when they asked my child to be in the bridal party, that they might be uncomfortable in a traditional gown, and asked them if they would be open to the kid's input.

But since/if Tess is a person who identifies female, and the dress just wasn't to her taste, I would have told her to grin and bear it, and think about that, the next time she's asked to be a wedding attendant. The day of the wedding was not the time to say, "I don't like my bridesmaid dress."

I then would have told her she could change into something that suited her, as soon as the ceremony and formal pictures were over, and I would have told Randall to tell Kevin that (let the Pearsons deal with each other).

As far as anything we've ever seen, this is not about Tess's gender, so it doesn't deserve the "going to bat for her" stance that Beth took. Sometimes, teaching your kids grace under pressure is being a better ally than indulging them.

BUT, the whole storyline was b.s., so I'm not even mad at Beth or Tess.

 

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

She's 13 and didn't really know how wrong it felt until she put the dress on.  She was trying though.  She was willing to power through until Beth intervened.  She is right in the middle of figuring things out about herself and how she wants to present herself to the world.  In time she will decide how feminine she wants to present and she will also learn how to suck it up for one day.  She just is not there yet.  We see in the flashforward that adult Tess does wear dresses.  

 

This (the part I bolded above) is why I think the writers made a bad choice, here.

[LexieLily]

20 minutes ago, marceline said:

I'll be interested to see what the fallout is for Kevin from a canceled wedding given how his engagement was on the cover of a tabloid. We know he's got that terrible movie coming out which would mean he'd be doing a lot of media and this is the type of thing that would be all over the internet. It would also make Madison's life hell because....who turns down the Manny? Kevin's fans would basically turn her into Kristen Stewart after Robert Pattinson.

That is a good point and falls into what they are going to do about their living situation, kind of. That house looked decent-enough sized for Kevin and Madison both to continue living there if that is something both of them are comfortable with, given that the babies are still so little and if Madison is breastfeeding she would obviously need to be around to do that. But the media aspect of Kevin's career is important. Kevin surely would want to protect Madison from tabloid scrutiny and being the Bad Woman That Left Kevin The Day Of Their Wedding.

[ShadowFacts]

35 minutes ago, Janie430 said:

In Rebecca's defense, she seems like she's been trying to have the conversation with Randall for a week, and he's been ducking her.  Randall was leaving the next day, so she had to pin him down that day.  And I've been waiting for Rebecca to say that she justified her lying about Randall's parents on the basis of the fact that they were addicts, so I was happy about that.

But they're writing Randall as romanticizing Laurel, and it is annoying.  She was an addict.  She messed up, and ended up in jail for five years.  She then self-destructed for the next 30 until she died.  Nicky self-destructed for 50. William self-destructed on and off for 30 years (since he was an active addict when Randall was being adopted, he was sober six years later when Rebecca went to see him in Philly, and then the show seems to have thought he would have been using again when Randall was 18 in the Sliding Doors episode).  

I love that this show is about showing how the past shapes us and people don't just "get over" some things, but does no one in the Pearsons' world ever move on from anything really bad?  Or rebuild their life?  You can build a life that's better than living alone on a vegetable farm for 30 years and still regret not reaching out to your child who you might have thought was already in a stable loving family.  Or go the William way and show her as a relapsing addict, not that she just wallowed for 30 years.

I wasn't really keen on the Laurel backstory, but I didn't see it as showing her wallowing for 30 years. I saw it as she did the best she could with what happened to her.  And being in prison and therefore a felon for being an addict shaped her in such a way that I think she was continuing to punish herself instead of being rehabilitated and fully reintegrated into society.  She wasn't a drug dealer, she had quit using during pregnancy, then paid a steep price after starting up again to deal with pain after childbirth.  After prison, she didn't return to drugs, she was productive, she had her aunt and then her old boyfriend who she dutifully stayed away from for years, but didn't think she deserved to find her son.  I don't know if Randall is romanticizing any of that.  He can be a pain, but he has now dealt with two pretty dramatic histories of his birth parents.  I don't think he wanted to get into it with Rebecca at the moment but she pushed it and he acquiesced.