S02.E04: She Knows

[tennisgurl]

22 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Jane's new guy is weird, they are making him weird on purpose.  I don't fault people for thinking he is suspicious.  

2 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

The first season did have a lot of weird red herrings, its been so long its kind of easy to forget. They seemed to be going for a kind of "everybody is a suspect, and everyone could die" kind of thing, even when basically all of them turned out to be nothing. I do remember though that some of the speculation did get a bit...out there. I seem to remember there being something about a sex cult or sex trafficking? This season seems to be less with everyone being suspicious, but I guess its hard to turn off. 

Now that we know last season and how things turned out, it makes me think that Jane's boyfriend will just be a normal kind of awkward young guy, and the real villain will be Mary Louis, who is obviously the bad guy. Maybe she gets over some other set of stairs?

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Dear Ed,

Either shit or get off the pot. Yes, Madeline is the one who had the affair. However, Ed either needs to commit to working on their marriage or filing for divorce. Passive-aggressiveness isn’t cute on anybody. Like, why the fuck did he show up at Amabella’s party and act surprised that his wife, who is trying to remedy things, would ask him to dance? He is so put out by it, and I’m baffled. It’s like, why did you choose to even go at all?

Mary Louise is a true piece of work. She disgusts me every time she doubts Jane was raped. That being said, what the hell is going on with Celeste? I’ve never taken Ambien, but are constant blackouts normal?! If I were Celeste, I’d book an emergency appointment with my PCP/m and/or psychiatrist to figure out why these drugs keep making me blackout and to see if I could be prescribed something with less harmful side effects. Celeste is going to have a very hard time defending medication inducing blackouts. She needs to go on the offensive here, as do all these women.

The incident that made me put down Ambien forever involved 2nd and 3rd degree burns on my abdomen.  I can't remember why I had a heating pad there, but I did.  When I finally woke up and moved the pain hit me.  When I looked?  Off to the doctor's because it was obviously serious.  I slept through being burned severely.

There are so many reports of people driving and not remembering doing so, calling people at saying astounding things, like a high school friend you wanted to have sex with and needed to tell him/her RIGHT THEN, and God, internet postings that are insane.  A very sweet woman on another board posted the funniest, most insane train of thought post one night.  The next day she was humiliated, but we all loved it, so she left it up.

There really isn't a sub for Ambien.  It's not worth it to me, even though I would dearly love some solid sleep.

Even if you are careful with meds though?  (For example, I would never drink with that or other meds?)  Ambien removes all sense, and a drink or a whole bottle might be downed in the Ambien haze.  The biggest and best hint I was given was to hide the car keys.

5 hours ago, zobot81 said:

I realized last night that about 50% of the time I spend watching a S2 episode, it's with my jaw wide open.  Like, holy crap...whoa...no....wtfffuuu-....o.....my...........gawwwd!! When Celeste slapped Marie Louise I almost fell off the couch.  When Marie Louise came back with, "What do we call that?  Foreplay?"

Perfect line, perfect delivery.

4 hours ago, CynicalGirl said:

Thanks for the info. I guess I always pictured it as people taking it to sleep and then "waking up" in a blackout state and doing things they don't remember, 

I suffer from frequent insomnia and sometimes I'm just desperate to sleep for 8 hours straight. A friend gave me a couple ambien a few years ago but I've always been too afraid to try it. I'd have to get someone to hide my car keys, phone and internet connection first, lol. 

Honestly, I think some people use them without too many issues, but, even with my terrible insomnia?  Never again.

4 hours ago, monakane said:

I took it once following a long overseas flight home.  When I woke up the next morning, every light in my house was on and I had no memory of how it happened.  I won't take it again.  I'm wondering if Celeste is dealing with some kind of drug problem.  She mentioned the vicadin in a previous episode.  I can see how a woman in her situation would develop an addiction.

Did you check your refrigerator?  Another common side effect is eating everything and leaving the kitchen a mess, with absolutely no memory of doing so.

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, PepSinger said:

On a non related note, I don’t understand the bankruptcy trustee’s smart ass remarks about how he will determine what the house will sell for and how much their assets will be tied up in civil suits. If an appraiser said their house will sell north of $20 million, why would he have a problem with that? I’ve never had to deal with bankruptcy, so I’m very confused.

My parents once bought a property that was seized by the bank because of someone's bankruptcy.  They definitely got it under market value for the time.  

 

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I don't know about ML getting custody of the twins. 

At the hearing, all Celeste has to do is show key clips from Kramer vs. Kramer, A Cry in the Dark, and (big finish) Sophie's Choice...

"Your honor, this woman GIVES HER CHILDREN TO NAZIS!!"

Case closed.

Yeah but in The Devil Wears Prada she also got her twins the new Harry Potter book before it was even released!!!!!!  

Edited July 1, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

I think the therapist was only half right with Maddie.  Yes, she feels inadequate because she didn't go to college.  But I suspect she also has low self-esteem because her ex-husband and father of her first child just fucking up and left her and abandoned their child.  To me, that's an even bigger reason for Maddie's low self esteem.  Much bigger actually than the college thing.

At some point, Madeline also mentioned something about her dad (I can’t remember if he died or divorced her mom, but something happened) so I think she’s always had abandonment issues but that Nathan leaving her is what amplified it from a more subconscious concern to a red alert fear.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I would not have been this tolerant of Mary Louise either. Someone needs to sit her down and tell her if she chooses not to believe certain facts about her son she either needs to keep her mouth shut about it or she needs to go away.  I really don't know why they're tip-toeing around her when it comes to this. 

Jane could easily get a restraining order against her. There's no way the mother of her rapist has any rights to her child, not even visitation. Nor should Jane even entertain the idea for a second.

I completely agree with the telling ML to bounce part.

Restraining orders are not that easy to get.  I have a friend who left an abusive relationship, and the guy was threatening to kill her, was stalking her, and she STILL couldn't get a restraining order. 

Someone advised her to tell him she would report him to his boss if he called again. (He was calling 30 times a day, from spoofed numbers of her friends, or just random numbers, and she's a Realtor so taking calls is what she does.) He was Vice Principal at a High School, and that particular threat, delivered by a guy friend of hers?  Worked.

[slowpoked]

5 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

While Nicole and Meryl are slugging it out literally and figuratively..Laura Dern  just nailed scenes after scene in last night's episode...

Admit you were on the edge of your seat watching her answering questions with the  bankruptcy judge...her nuanced facial expressions, her tone, her barely controlled rage...

Watching Amabella dancing with one of the twins in their matching gold outfits....your heart broke with hers....wrap up another Emmy for Laura....

Her indignation at the insinuation that the trustee thought she would inherit money was the best part. Usually people are proud that they will inherit something because that meant they came from a line of wealthy families. Inheritance is only something that a very small % of population gets. Therefore it's a pretty exclusive club.

But her indignation at the thought she would inherit something, that she would get something she didn't work hard for, how it's so offensive for someone to think that about her...Only Laura Dern's Renata can pull it off

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Your honor, this woman GIVES HER CHILDREN TO NAZIS!!"

Case closed.

And the dingo ate her baby! (I like to hear this in Elaine Benes' voice for maximum effect.) 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Melina22

[MaggieG]

All of the Ambien stories make me terrified to ever take it. I was once given Vicoden after a car accident and it made me loopy. I can't imagine what Ambien would do to me. I guess I have a low tolerance 😛

My question is why would Celeste even take an Ambien after banging the hot bartender? 

The "fight" between Nathan and Ed was funny

[slowpoked]

44 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

My parents once bought a property that was seized by the bank because of someone's bankruptcy.  They definitely got it under market value for the time.  

I think bankruptcy trustees' main goal is to sell assets as fast as he can, more than however much he can. So when Renata said the house could go for 20M, and he said he would be the judge of that - if the only offer he gets is a good 15M cash offer, even though the house was appraised for 20M, he's certainly not going to hold it until he gets that 20M.

Or that even if he gets a 20M offer, but it will take awhile to close, compared to the 15M offer that will close faster, he will take the latter one. He's essentially telling Renata and Gordon it's his decision to make on however much the house will sell for.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I agree, they don't care about profit in those situations.

[Calamity Jane]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Very good point!

That he just came out and swanned around in front of ML and the kids was part of what made me wonder if he was somehow a ML set up. It seemed very odd behavior. 

[monakane]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Did you check your refrigerator?  Another common side effect is eating everything and leaving the kitchen a mess, with absolutely no memory of doing so.

Actually I did check the fridge.  Nothing was missing.  Your burns sound awful.  I hope you recovered quickly.

[scrb]

Corey being Perry's half-brother would be ridiculous.

Hell, Perry being Jane's rapist was also kind of ridiculous, the odds of him raping someone who happened to later become friends with his wife and family was very low.

Now they're going to pull that trick again?

Monterey can't be that insular of a town.

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

What is up with these 45 minute episodes? I think the producers think the episodes are ending on more compelling notes than they actually are.

I love 45 minute episodes. I've not been a fan of the trend to make episodes almost take up a whole hour.  Usually,  but not always, something can be cut from a 60 minute episode to make it move faster.  Only a few shows know how to put in enough plot to fill a 60 minute episode or are skilled enough to make a slow pace compelling. 

With 45 minutes, sometimes there are still things that need to be cut or there are slow moments but 45 minutes makes it more bearable. 

I know it's strange but the network length of show is one of my favorite parts about it.

8 hours ago, Haleth said:

Last week I was all Team Ed but his passive aggressive behavior is getting old.  Maddie was right, either leave or agree to fix their marriage.  Constantly reminding Maddie that he's been wronged (and flirting with Bonnie) while rejecting counseling doesn't help.

Yeah, I called it in ep 2 that Mary Louise was going to go after the boys.  As much as I can't stand her and think she's manufacturing a questionable list of wrongs, Celeste is a mess.  The ambien blackouts are putting the kids at risk.  Still, I wish Maddie had shut the door in her face.  And certainly Jane needs to tell her to stay away from her son.  Or maybe Jane should move again, far far away.  Renata and Gordon can move into her apartment. 🙂

I said I think Bonnie and Ed might sleep together because of the time they've spent together this season. There was Ed's attraction last season but I haven't felt like were flirting this season...just around each other a lot.

Did Ed reject therapy?  I know he said "no" to Maddie's weekend retreat idea but she's the one who said "it has to be better than that woman." I might have missed something but it feels more like Maddie was wanting to avoid therapy and instead look for a quick fix. "Let's go to Big Sur and get closer and have sex" or her attempts to have sex with him later than it seemed like Ed was rejecting therapy.

And, as far as we know, Maddie still hasn't shared with him what she told Celeste so she still likely hasn't been straight with him....just vague "it's me" platitudes.

1 hour ago, PepSinger said:

Like, why did Ed go to a dancing party knowing that it would be highly likely that he’d need or be asked to dance with Madeline? Why even put yourself in that position?

On a non related note, I don’t understand the bankruptcy trustee’s smart ass remarks about how he will determine what the house will sell for and how much their assets will be tied up in civil suits. 

Why wouldn't Ed go to the party?  The party wasn't a couples party.  It was a party for Amabella. Ed and Maddie are there partly because they're friends of her parents but also because their daughter was likely an invited guest. Ed's a hands on parent. 

ETA got rid of my bankruptcy trustee explanation since @slowpoked explained it better and faster than I did.  (How's that for irony?)

Edited July 1, 2019 by Irlandesa

[sashayshante]

I think Corey not appearing cunning enough is intentional. Stay with me here. (Puts on tin foil hat)

I think ML is a misdirect. We're all convinced ML is so sinister that she's out to get whomever killed her son. What if the truly dangerous one is Corey? (I suspect the gun in the opening credits hints at something to come.)

Do we know how old Perry was when his brother died? Was he five or was the brother 5? I'm all in that Corey is - at least -a half-sibling of Perry's. They wouldn't keep bringing up the brother if the brother didn't the in to the plot.

TL/DR Corey will kill someone (ML) or be killed by (ML). I don't see them having yet another one of the five women killing someone.

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, monakane said:

Actually I did check the fridge.  Nothing was missing.  Your burns sound awful.  I hope you recovered quickly.

Luckily the 3rd degree parts were very small, but it took several weeks.  Anyway, that was the end of Ambien for me.  Celeste could have almost any behavior issues on that med though.

I do hope Ed gets laid, by someone who wants him and knows how.  I wanted it since last season, seeing his sad little back while he was shuffling up to do his song. 

I agree with others about Maddie not handling this well.  I wish the therapist had turned it around and asked Maddie to imagine finding out Ed cheated on her from her daughters.

Ed not being "over it" makes complete sense, as does sensible Ed not making a rush decision to move out or divorce.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[scrb]

I recently read about some study which showed that when there is cheating, it was a very high percentage of relationships which fell apart.

Maybe not initially, though it was a high percentage which ended pretty immediately.

But even many of the ones where they try to work it out eventually fell apart.

On shows and various websites though, there's a lot of content about couples trying to reestablish trust, trying to keep things together, etc.

May not be a realistic depiction.

Maddy and Ed at first seemed like very happy together.  I can't recall if it came as a complete surprise that Maddy was cheating, like it came out of left field or something.

[BigBlueMastiff]

4 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

5 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I just can't get too excited about the whole inquiry into Perry's death.  It's too much of a stretch to believe they could make a case for anything above a misdemeanor. 

Yeah, I was hoping they would move in another direction.  

Maybe if they had fessed up immediately, but now we have obstruction of justice, lying to the police, possible witness tampering, and who knows what else. Proving yet again, why the cover up is always worse than the lie.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, scrb said:

I recently read about some study which showed that when there is cheating, it was a very high percentage of relationships which fell apart.

Maybe not initially, though it was a high percentage which ended pretty immediately.

But even many of the ones where they try to work it out eventually fell apart.

On shows and various websites though, there's a lot of content about couples trying to reestablish trust, trying to keep things together, etc.

May not be a realistic depiction.

Maddy and Ed at first seemed like very happy together.  I can't recall if it came as a complete surprise that Maddy was cheating, like it came out of left field or something.

Maddy and Ed didn't seem happy to me, except on the surface.

There was almost no sex, and what they did have, according to Ed, was bland and over in a few minutes. 

She treated him more like a roommate, and he obviously wanted more, actual love and at least occasional passion.

She had her passion, with someone else, someone he knew, and worse?  She lied to him for most of a year about it, while putting him in social situations WITH the man.

I think the lies are more devastating than the sex.  I also think having to socialize with someone who knew more than you did about your own wife?  Is a horrible thing to realize, and harder to get over than the sex part of the affair.  Cap that off with his daughter and step daughter not only knowing about it, but also lying to him?

I'm team Ed here.  Take all the time you need buddy, be passive aggressive if that's what you need to do, YOU decide if and when you want therapy, and which kind of therapy. 

Maddy?  Suck it up babe, and adjust, you did this.  There are prices to pay.

[Penman61]

13 minutes ago, scrb said:

Maddy and Ed at first seemed like very happy together.  I can't recall if it came as a complete surprise that Maddy was cheating, like it came out of left field or something.

I did a S1 rewatch right before S2 started, and while Maddy and Ed seemed superficially ok, S1 definitely presented a MAJOR fault-line in their marriage:

For Ed, Maddie was "the one" (his words) and he felt she didn't reciprocate that, AND HE TOLD HER OF THIS FEELING--which she didn't contradict convincingly. 

That's precisely the kind of iceberg (mixed metaphors, sorry) that allows a marriage, especially with kids, to appear to proceed amicably but is extremely vulnerable to a serious blow...like, say, "the one" cheating. Imagine how Ed feels NOW. Maddy cheating completely validates his insecurity. I don't believe that their problem is solely Maddy's problem (as she protests now, as if some lone eat, pray, love self-exam journey will fix the marriage). It's chemistry.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Penman61

[PepSinger]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

There was almost no sex, and what they did have, according to Ed, was bland and over in a few minutes. 

Heh. This reminds me. When Madeline turned over after Ed rejected her kisses in bed, I honestly thought for a moment that she was going to finger herself. I would have died.

[Penman61]

5 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

Heh. This reminds me. When Madeline turned over after Ed rejected her kisses in bed, I honestly thought for a moment that she was going to finger herself. I would have died.

Celeste needs to share some Perry videos, stat...

[WaltersHair]

I'm enjoying this season, but it suffers from being all about the aftermath. The first season was great because you didn't know who died and who did it.

It's also hard to believe Meryl was going to come in and just bake cookies like a sweet grandma because....Meryl. BTW if anyone is keeping track of her playing bad mothers add the Manchurian Candidate remake (she allows her son to be brainwashed into becoming an assassin) and that horrible August Osage County. Julia Roberts drives off in nothing but her pajamas just to get away from her.

What's good about this season is that the women are changing. I really disliked Bonnie last season, but this season she's a little harder and more realistic. No wonder her husband has roving eyes. He wants his hippie wife back.

Oh and that unhinged  picture was the idea of a 40 year old drawn writer by a 7 year old.

[chenoa333]

18 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

anyone starting to wonder if Bonnie and Ed end up sleeping together?

If they haven't already, they will. As the saying goes "even Stevie Wonder can see that coming". 

And it was so unlike Maddie to let Celeste's MIL in the house. I think the writers of this series are the ones coming unhinged.

[walnutqueen]

3 hours ago, Blissfool said:

Will ML be required to keep paying these "best lawyers in the area" to prevent them from getting hired by Celeste? That would get expensive. 

No, I think that once she's had an initial consultation with any lawyers, they couldn't take on Celeste as a client due to "conflict of interest".

[LotusFlower]

11 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

The actor playing Bonnie's dad is good at playing disturbed characters so I keep expecting something to come out about him.

I don’t think that’s her dad.  I think it’s her mother’s second husband.  

2 hours ago, scrb said:

I recently read about some study which showed that when there is cheating, it was a very high percentage of relationships which fell apart.

They did a study on that?!  😏

[Melina22]

54 minutes ago, chenoa333 said:

If they haven't already, they will. As the saying goes "even Stevie Wonder can see that coming". 

I can't see it. Bonnie is Madeline's close friend. And she seems like a sensitive, ethical person. The biggest strength of this show is how loving and strong the friendships are between the women. I don't want them to mess that up with a "my best friend stole my man" scenario. 

[Armchair Critic]

48 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

12 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

The actor playing Bonnie's dad is good at playing disturbed characters so I keep expecting something to come out about him.

I don’t think that’s her dad.  I think it’s her mother’s second husband.  

I realize that,  I just meant that actor plays creepy well so that's what has me suspicious of him. She did call him "Dad" last night but I figured he was her stepfather.

[stagmania]

6 hours ago, sashayshante said:

Madeline belongs with and frankly deserves a man like Nate. 

Come on now, that's way too harsh - no one deserves a man like Nathan.

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

To be fair, Celeste really is a mess. But I don't think handing the kids over to Mary Louise is the right answer, considering how Perry turned out. In fact if this goes to court and it came out how Perry was a wife beater and a rapist, it's doubtful the judge would give custody of any kids to his mother. In all probability they'd wind up in foster care or something.

Realistically, there's no way Celeste would lose her kids over what we've seen. A loving, attentive mom with a solid support network who's had a couple rough months following her husband's death? This is not a scenario in which a judge removes children from their mother. Add the fact that she's a rich white lady and there's literally no way that would happen. I think the drama is more about how she gets her shit together and gets Mary Louise to leave them the fuck alone.

57 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

I don’t think that’s her dad.  I think it’s her mother’s second husband.  

She calls him Dad and there's been no hint at a different father. 

[Razzberry]

3 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

That he just came out and swanned around in front of ML and the kids was part of what made me wonder if he was somehow a ML set up. It seemed very odd behavior. 

Ooooh, I like this.  And he could easily have roofied her, something ML seems to know quite a lot about.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I think I said last week that if Jane continues to see ML after what ML said to her about her possibly not being raped, then Jane needs to seek help.  And now Jane is even stupid enough to go and seek ML out to speak to her.  So stupid.

Yeah, it would be one thing if Ziggy was just the result of an affair and Jane is tempted to give her child a grandmother. But this is the woman who raised her rapist. She's crazy to have anything to do with her. You don't think there's even the possibility that Perry turned out the way he did because of how he was raised? You want to take that chance and expose your own kid to the same woman?

Part of the problem here is that the season seems to lean heavily on accommodating the Mary Louise character just for the sake of drama. Nobody is really reacting to her in a realistic way. 

[peggy06]

Several comments that Renata "married badly." Renata herself said this when Gordon tried to talk to her at the party. But I took it as her twisting the knife even farther, pretending to blame herself for not anticipating that he would be a loser. 

Did Ed marry badly? 

[VagueDisclaimer]

9 hours ago, Razzberry said:

He could be, or, as someone suggested, in the employ of Mary Louise.

I just can't get too excited about the whole inquiry into Perry's death.  It's too much of a stretch to believe they could make a case for anything above a misdemeanor.   Those stairs were an accident waiting to happen!  hehe

I was deeply amused at the detective stopping at Maddie’s table, remarking on her big speech at the school meeting, and that she’d have to check it out. She said it so ominously, as if Madeline’s deep read of ”The Rainbow Connection”would reveal some hidden truths. I don’t think anything would come from an investigation, but they could at least make it seem a bit more competent. 

9 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Well, sort of. Maddie asked her if she took Ambien again, and she just nodded. I’m starting to lean towards Mary Louise doctoring the Ambien. It all just seemed a little too neat, which got my spidey-sense going. 

I just don’t think Mary Louise is sophisticated enough to be switching up meds or hiring people to infiltrate their lives. Honestly, any evidence she needs to try to get custody or get suspicion thrown on her son’s case, all the ladies are practically handing it all to her with a bow on it. 

[ArtFossil]

22 hours ago, peggy06 said:

So there was an accident and presumably, Perry's brother died. And his father blamed his mother. I wonder if Perry was really the one to blame?

Of course Perry killed his brother! (Or so I have assumed ever since we learned his brother died.)

[VagueDisclaimer]

8 hours ago, stagmania said:

People seem to find everyone on this show suspicious, thanks to the framing of season 1. I recall last year many suspected Ed of molesting Abigail

I totally thought that was why they had Ed say this season that yes, he thought of her as his daughter. 

[movingtargetgal]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Did you check your refrigerator?  Another common side effect is eating everything and leaving the kitchen a mess, with absolutely no memory of doing so.

Been there, done that.  I once found an empty bowl of mustard on my nightstand.  I have no memory of it.

[tennisgurl]

That slap Celeste gave Mary Louis is what that weird show The Slap should have been about!

Edited July 7, 2019 by tennisgurl

[BetyBee]

It's my understanding that Ed doesn't know that Bonnie pushed Perry.  He will find out and when he does, the marriage will be over.  He doesn't like not knowing things.  

Mary Louise said she dropped the boys at Jane's - I really don't get that!  If I were Jane, I'd get a restraining order against her.  Everyone in town should probably do that!  When she did meet with Jane and after saying Jane was a good mother, she went on to question if Jane allowed Ziggy to drive with Celeste.  That could be merely Celeste bashing or it could be an opening into her next custody battle.  That's how she started off with Celeste. 

I guess we're supposed to think that Madelyn let her in to the pumpkin party and Jane meets with her because they're thinking of Josh & Max and their feelings, because they love ML.  This season is a strange story, with a lot of incomplete conversations.   

I hope Corey's not Perry's half brother, but if he is, I hope he's there to thwart ML! 

[Broderbits]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Part of the problem here is that the season seems to lean heavily on accommodating the Mary Louise character just for the sake of drama. Nobody is really reacting to her in a realistic way. 

Yes!!! Every episode I wonder why the hell these women are interacting with Mary Louise when all she does is insult and torment them. It's understandable that Celeste would allow the twins to spend time with their grandmother, but why not put her in a hotel instead of giving her the opportunity to snoop around your home? Why would Jane want to interact with her rapist's mother? Why wouldn't Madeline just shut the door in ML's face instead of inviting her into the pumpkin party?

[WaltersHair]

I've re-watched the first three episodes to figure out what the B story is (ML is the magician using slight of hand to keep our attention away from it, I believe).

They imply every episode that Bonnie will drown. Knowing the show, it won't be her, but maybe she'll be there. Or it's a metaphor for the truth coming out.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, Broderbits said:

Why wouldn't Madeline just shut the door in ML's face instead of inviting her into the pumpkin party?

I didn't find this unbelievable at all. As much as none of them wanted her there, they just couldn't bring themselves to commit the unforgivable breach of etiquette required to slam the door in the face of an uninvited guest bearing gifts, especially when the guest was the grandmother of children who were present.

That's how Mary Louises get away with so much. They dare you to say or do anything, and usually people are too shocked or confused  or polite to do it. It's their power. The normal rules of behaviour don't apply to them, and no one knows how to respond. 

I was fascinated by Mary Louise's response to the slap. You would expect her to go crazy or fight back or cry or something. Instead, she underreacts, apart from the acid comment, making you wonder if this kind of thing was normal in her own marriage. Or if it actually pleased her, that Celeste was playing right into her hands. 

I suspect that people who don't think Mary Louise is realistic have been fortunate enough not to have to deal with anyone like her in their own lives. If you have, you can understand why otherwise strong people are letting her get away with so much. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Melina22

[Armchair Critic]

I am suspicious about Corey too, but I hope not for Jane's sake. It would really suck if she finally let her guard down with a man and then she gets hurt again.

[anniebird]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I didn't find this unbelievable at all. As much as none of them wanted her there, they just couldn't bring themselves to commit the unforgivable breech of etiquette required to slam the door in the face of an uninvited guest bearing gifts, especially when the guest was the grandmother of children who were present.

That's how Mary Louises get away with so much. They dare you to say or do anything, and usually people are too shocked or confused  or polite to do it. It's their power. The normal rules of behaviour don't apply to them, and no one knows how to respond. 

I was fascinated by Mary Louise's response to the slap. You would expect her to go crazy or fight back or cry or something. Instead, she underreacts, apart from the acid comment, making you wonder if this kind of thing was normal in her own marriage. Or if it actually pleased her, that Celeste was playing right into her hands. 

I suspect that people who don't think Mary Louise is realistic have been fortunate enough not to have to deal with anyone like her in their own lives. If you have, you can understand why otherwise strong people are letting her get away with so much. 

I had exactly the same thought - Maddie tried very hard not to invite ML in, and ML passive-aggressived her into it. There's no way any woman in this social circle is  going to slam the door in the face of those kids' grandmother.

[Cheezwiz]

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

That's how Mary Louises get away with so much. They dare you to say or do anything, and usually people are too shocked or confused  or polite to do it. It's their power. The normal rules of behaviour don't apply to them, and no one knows how to respond. 

I was fascinated by Mary Louise's response to the slap. You would expect her to go crazy or fight back or cry or something. Instead, she underreacts, apart from the acid comment, making you wonder if this kind of thing was normal in her own marriage. Or if it actually pleased her, that Celeste was playing right into her hands. 

I suspect that people who don't think Mary Louise is realistic have been fortunate enough not to have to deal with anyone like her in their own lives. If you have, you can understand why otherwise strong people are letting her get away with so much. 

Yes, THIS! A thousand times this! Mary Louise has been able to use her "grieving grandmother" status to worm her way into these women's lives. Her ties to Celeste's (and now Jane's) children complicates things. Unfortunately for Celeste, ML has become an abusive surrogate for Perry. I think people are flummoxed by her partly out of shock and disbelief at her passive-aggressive jabs, but I do think everyone has finally reached a breaking point and has had enough of her.

And yes, I agree - I think she was delighted that Celeste slapped her - it's exactly the ammo she's been fishing for all along.

I know people are finding this season soapy, but I'm still enjoying the hell out of this show! FIGHT ME!

[Bama]

11 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

 My bad about the bankruptcy dude..too lazy to look it up before I clicked Submit Reply...

Too much show..now we have the drama of Bonnie's mother stroke and seizure with her accusing second husband who blames Bonnie for her mom's medical condition....

 Jane deserves to slap ML, too.

Bonnie called him “Dad” during that scene?

Have we been told specifically if he’s her biological father or a stepfather or if he adopted her?

 I was assuming he was a second husband too but Bonnie calling him “Dad threw me.

[Snow Fairy]

But when did Celest take Ambian? Before going to bar? After? If it is after, how did the guy get there, she would know she invited hime.

If before, why? She went out with a friend

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Part of the problem here is that the season seems to lean heavily on accommodating the Mary Louise character just for the sake of drama. Nobody is really reacting to her in a realistic way. 

You know, in some ways, I agree, but in other ways, I think someone like Mary Louise gets away with her behavior by just skirting the line between polite and rude, and counting on the idea that she won't be directly confronted.

[jeansheridan]

On 7/1/2019 at 3:19 PM, sashayshante said:

suspect the gun in the opening credits hints at something to come.)

The gun is in the season 1 credits too. A gun that never showed up.

I have disliked Renata all season and then boom! Every scene was brilliant. The humiliation at the bankruptcy hearing and the indignity of having to surrender your wedding ring. Yes I know this was a one percenter's problem, but Dern sold that ring moment. Plus it did feel very mean spirited. 

But also watching her play hostess, being warm to her guests, enjoying her daughter, breaking up the fight...Renata had a good night. Plus I liked seeing her the next day talking to Maddie about Celeste's custody problems. I liked that lived in friend feeling. Renata would know the best lawyers. Maddie was right to ask her.

I don't know how I feel about Ed and Maddie. While I don't love Maddie, I see her trying. Ed seems checked out. And maybe he has a right to be. But I see Renata actually engaging with her husband, even when she is pissed. They talk to each other. He betrayed her in such an epic, public way but I feel like she would slug anyone who.attacked him. At least the Renata in this episode.

 

17 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

You know, in some ways, I agree, but in other ways, I think someone like Mary Louise gets away with her behavior by just skirting the line between polite and rude, and counting on the idea that she won't be directly confronted.

Ya'll she showed up with a Bundt cake. She is the Jedi master of MIL manipulation. I do actually think she should have walked in from the beach side so the kids could see her first. Maddie was almost capable of slamming that door but CAKE.

[Blakeston]

Madeline is a total firecracker, and when she believes someone is in the wrong, she goes after them like a rabid dog. I think she'd gladly slam the door in Mary Louise's face, social niceties be damned.

The only way I could see her inviting Mary Louise in is if ML's grandkids were watching. She wouldn't want to have to explain to them she turned their grandma away. But IIRC, the kids were in the other room.

Re: the Ambien - I think the idea is that Celeste invited the bartender home, and had sex with him, and then took Ambien when she couldn't sleep (and then when she woke up, she was in such a daze that she forgot about the bartender).

I could see someone finding it especially difficult to fall asleep when they have a stranger in their bed. Of course, I could also see Mary Louise paying the bartender to roofie her.

[formergr]

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Ya'll she showed up with a Bundt cake. She is the Jedi master of MIL manipulation.

Ha, spoken like a true Southerner!