JD and Abbie: Captured Before the Rapture

[Natalie68]

20 hours ago, lascuba said:

What do fundies have against good bras?! It's not like any of the bridesmaids are super busty so finding bras shouldn't be difficult, yet most of them have zero support. It ruins what are otherwise really pretty dresses.

Cost.  The bride did look to be wearing a good bra and I remember when I got my wedding dress that was the 1st thing that the seamstress did.  Find me the correct undergarment!

[Scarlett45]

46 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Speaking of Josh and whether or not he was ever really forgiven, when the whole scandal came out my first thought was of an episode back in the early days when Josh took Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger to Florida to help Anna with bridesmaids' dresses. He even spouted his smug, holier than thou spiel about he was their accountability partner, if I recall correctly.  How Jim Bob and Michelle were ok with that trip is beyond me.  The girls could not have been very comfortable with the whole scenario.  I know the camera crew was there, but in hindsight  I am still baffled that this was even allowed.

Josh also made lewd comments about kissing and incest being common in Arkansas. Yup, he’s disgusting and doesn’t regret what he did in the slightest. 

 

1 hour ago, WalrusGirl said:

I don’t remember if it was Jill, Jessa, or both, but I remember their being pissed that he’d JUST allowed them to go on national TV defending him/interviewing about the molestations and trying to move things past it when he obviously knew he was/had been cheating on his wife and was at high risk for another scandal anytime.

 

And yeah - I have a friend who was raped by a family friend at a young age, and she’s extremely uncomfortable with having unexpectedly woken up with a catheter when a surgery ran hours longer than planned (someone touching her genitals to do so while she was out, and without her even knowing it would be done), or being knocked out during procedures anywhere near that region/with the area exposed. I DON’T know that she attributes it to the rape - it’s more “I’m really uncomfortable with that” and I think she thinks all/most women are, and while that isn’t the case for me she may not be wrong, maybe it’s much more common among those who haven’t been violated than I’d figured - but I definitely do and have it, unmentioned, as background context in my mind when it’s come up before and after various surgeries.

I understand why Jessa was pissed, “you have me on tv defending you and you’re fucking around on your wife with people you met ONLINE on a site for cheaters”, she was also upset that his antics got the show cancelled and she/Ben didn’t get the treatment for Spuregons birth Jill got for Izzy. 

 

 Josh is so fucking entitled. I’m not equating cheating on your spouse to molesting your sibling, but golly how do you sit here and claim to be a paragon a virtue and do something like that. He cared nothing about embarrassing the family. 

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

where they can forgive and forget

Having walked the path of childhood abuse (not sexual), forgiving is to help the abused person go on with their life not the abuser. Having done it, it did help me.  Forgiving and forgetting are two very different and separate things.  I forgave, but I'll never forget.  I also didn't really "get over it" until my father died.  Unexpectedly I was given a great gift of peace.  

[Scarlett45]

22 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Having walked the path of childhood abuse (not sexual), forgiving is to help the abused person go on with their life not the abuser. Having done it, it did help me.  Forgiving and forgetting are two very different and separate things.  I forgave, but I'll never forget.  I also didn't really "get over it" until my father died.  Unexpectedly I was given a great gift of peace.  

Thank you for sharing your perspective. 

[madpsych78]

I'm not convinced that Zach wasn't a groomsman. His outfit looked similar to the other groomsmen and I think perhaps the lighting was what made his tie look a little different in color. 

No sightings of SiRen (although they reportedly sang at the wedding), but no signs of Jill or Derick AT ALL. The only Dillard accounted for was Sam as he was with Lawson.

Why do Felicity and Gideon look like they are about the same size?

[graefin]

6 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

I'm not convinced that Zach wasn't a groomsman. His outfit looked similar to the other groomsmen and I think perhaps the lighting was what made his tie look a little different in color. 

No sightings of SiRen (although they reportedly sang at the wedding), but no signs of Jill or Derick AT ALL. The only Dillard accounted for was Sam as he was with Lawson.

Agree re Zach. His tie looks like it could be pinkish to me.

Supposedly Derick did not attend, but Jill was there. Sam was in the wedding party, apparently?

[madpsych78]

Apparently Derick was busy with his law school buds competing for donuts (see Jill/Derick thread).

[Sew Sumi]

8 minutes ago, graefin said:

Agree re Zach. His tie looks like it could be pinkish to me.

Supposedly Derick did not attend, but Jill was there. Sam was in the wedding party, apparently?

Izzy was the ringbearer. No word on whether Sam participated or not.

[graefin]

20 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Izzy was the ringbearer. No word on whether Sam participated or not.

Oh, right! I'm mixing up my kids. Sam would be a bit too young, I guess?

[QuinnInND]

I can't get the quote thing to work, but probably the other thing fundies have against good bras besides cost is you have to let a stranger measure you and you've got to stand there topless while they do it. Nope. 

[Fuzzysox]

On 11/7/2018 at 12:44 PM, yogi2014L said:

That is a good angle for him, I  agree that is probably the best we've ever seen him. Abbie looks beautiful. Boob and Mechelle make me want to vomit sitting there beaming. Crazy ass stage parents

The two Jkids next to them...hahah. Love how unamused they are. You go girls

JD failed in using Boob's can of hairspray to keep his hair in place!

[Christina87]

20 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I think it's called "repression." I don't think any of the Duggars dwell on the abuse day after day, but I don't think that it's all just forgotten, either. Things that happen to people when they're young color their world forever. I can personally think of dozens of old people who I've known, or read about, or seen interviewed on television who still remember and stew over issues from their childhood. I think it's far more likely that what they remember is the favoritism shown to Josh, or the lack of safety and security that they felt in their own home and their own beds. They also probably have difficulty with the cognitive dissonance of it all since they have had it drummed into their heads since infancy that their parents are perfect and God loves them best.

Omg this describes my late grandmother to a tee! She had an Irish twin older sister, and they were the oldest of nine. They were supposed to be perfect little helpers and role models, and her sister was the favorite. She constantly got asked, "why can't you be more like your sister?" Report card time was particularly brutal, as her sister got straight A's and would join in lecturing my grandmother along with her parents. When my grandmother was 86, she was still sitting there bragging that she never had glasses, while her sister did at a young age, while also listing he many, many ways she fell short of her sister. Funny enough, they both got married and lived down the street from each other the rest of their lives, so the comparisons were never ending. Her sister never seemed bothered by the comparisons, and I think was largely blind to the fact that being the favored child had affected her sister at all. 

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, QuinnInND said:

I can't get the quote thing to work, but probably the other thing fundies have against good bras besides cost is you have to let a stranger measure you and you've got to stand there topless while they do it. Nope. 

And if fundies think being topless is involved, it goes to illustrate their naivety. They could go to a mastectomy shop or a decent bra shop (NOT VS or the mall), and a good fitter could take one look and guess their size. No undressing, measuring, or touching involved. 

I think it goes to cost and many men -- not just fundies -- thinking properly fitting bras are unimportant because they themselves don't wear one. 

[lascuba]

If they can afford bridesmaids dresses--hell, they can afford materials to build a  fairly elaborate garden--then they can afford decent bras. And as keeper of the internet passwords, Jana could just google how to measure herself for a bra and be all set. 

[kokapetl]

11 hours ago, FakeJoshDuggar said:

Jana is super duper short. Like tiny as a 7th grader (and I’m only 5’6).  I don’t gauge height very well but I’d say 5’3 tops. Contrast that with Anna being much taller than she looks on tv. 

Here’s a photo of Jana with Nurie Rodrigues. Jana must be tiny.

[Heathen]

15 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

Here’s a photo of Jana with Nurie Rodrigues. Jana must be tiny.

Good grief. I have a renewed horror (and sorrow) at just how awful the Rodriguii girls look. 

[louannems]

27 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

Here’s a photo of Jana with Nurie Rodrigues. Jana must be tiny.

I must be horrible, but I can't stop laughing at the size of Nurie's head!

[awaken]

And always at such an odd angle, so their heads look huge. It always looks like someone towering over them took the photo. 

[WalrusGirl]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

And always at such an odd angle, so their heads look huge. It always looks like someone towering over them took the photo. 

I had a friend who directed all of her photos be taken from above because of the distorted/“shrinking” perspective it gives the body. I think it looks ridiculous, but it’s a thing. Then my 6’5” relative takes a picture of me (5’2”) and his wife and it’s just as screwed up because that’s just where his hands naturally hold the phone/camera. ? So it can also happen when the person taking the shot is significantly taller than those in the shot!

[GeeGolly]

12 hours ago, Absolom said:

Having walked the path of childhood abuse (not sexual), forgiving is to help the abused person go on with their life not the abuser. Having done it, it did help me.  Forgiving and forgetting are two very different and separate things.  I forgave, but I'll never forget.  I also didn't really "get over it" until my father died.  Unexpectedly I was given a great gift of peace.  

Happy for you that you have peace now.

I would like to add to this. Forgiveness does not always include returning to status quo. It doesn't mean no worries, let's be friends and as @Absolom posted, forget anything happened. Forgiveness is more about accepting a trauma occurred and moving forward. It's more about allowing yourself let go of toxic feelings so hate, shame, hurt, etc don't become embedded in who you are. And forgiveness is usually not a one shot deal, it's something you may need to do often.

Using the first stanza of the Serenity Prayer (with or without the word God) often helps folks to move toward forgiving themselves, others and/or traumas.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can; 
and wisdom to know the difference.
 

[Mojitogirl]

18 hours ago, graefin said:

Looks like Kynzie to me. Also, color me shocked that cheapo JB finally sprung for a new suit. At least he matches the others. And Jenni, as usual, looks so over it.

Boob looks like he’s lost quite a bit of weight. He also looks refreshed as does Michelle.   They probably took one of those nip and tuck spa vacations. 

[awaken]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Happy for you that you have peace now.

I would like to add to this. Forgiveness does not always include returning to status quo. It doesn't mean no worries, let's be friends and as @Absolom posted, forget anything happened. Forgiveness is more about accepting a trauma occurred and moving forward. It's more about allowing yourself let go of toxic feelings so hate, shame, hurt, etc don't become embedded in who you are. And forgiveness is usually not a one shot deal, it's something you may need to do often.

Using the first stanza of the Serenity Prayer (with or without the word God) often helps folks to move toward forgiving themselves, others and/or traumas.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can; 
and wisdom to know the difference.
 

These boards are so therapeutic for me!  Thanks for this reminder. 

[lookeyloo]

16 hours ago, Absolom said:

Having walked the path of childhood abuse (not sexual), forgiving is to help the abused person go on with their life not the abuser. Having done it, it did help me.  Forgiving and forgetting are two very different and separate things.  I forgave, but I'll never forget.  I also didn't really "get over it" until my father died.  Unexpectedly I was given a great gift of peace.  

yes.  And one can forgive for their own benefit and never let the perp know.  Its not for them to feel better at all.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, lookeyloo said:

yes.  And one can forgive for their own benefit and never let the perp know.  Its not for them to feel better at all.

Of course in Gothardland the victims of sexual abuse are supposed to stand up in group meetings with the perp present and acknowledge their own fault in causing the thing to happen. It's ALL about making the perp feel better. And, in fact, letting the perp pretty much off the hook in the community.

I don't know whether the Duggar girls had to do anything like that but they certainly heard -- and read in their "Wisdom Books" and elsewhere -- all the Gothard stuff about how girls, including very young ones, and women are always heavily at fault in sexual abuse situations because they allow their eyetraps to lead their brothers astray. "Forgiveness" in Gothardland is not at all what forgiveness is elsewhere. 

This, I suspect, is because the Gothard cult was designed by a perp. 

Whatever people in that cult go through when things like this happen pretty much obliterates the possibility of a common-sense approach being taken, at least until the people get wholly out of the cult. A ton of people who HAVE gotten out attest to that. 

So whatever we say about how these things can be and are dealt with normally, we should probably still remember that while those facts obtain in the average situation, they don't necessarily have any relevance at all to what convolutions appear in people's heads when they live in the upside-down Gothard world, learn nothing but what Gothard has declared, and participate in the daily Gothard rituals. All of which is true of the Duggarlings. 

EMLTA: Not taking issue at all with what @lookeyloo said! Just trying to bring the conversation back around from the normal world to the cult world, where I believe people may face extreme barriers to operating like the average person in situations like this! YMMV.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Churchhoney

[lookeyloo]

22 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Of course in Gothardland the victims of sexual abuse are supposed to stand up in group meetings with the perp present and acknowledge their own fault in causing the thing to happen. It's ALL about making the perp feel better. And, in fact, letting the perp pretty much off the hook in the community.

I don't know whether the Duggar girls had to do anything like that but they certainly heard -- and read in their "Wisdom Books" and elsewhere -- all the Gothard stuff about how girls, including very young ones, and women are always heavily at fault in sexual abuse situations because they allow their eyetraps to lead their brothers astray. "Forgiveness" in Gothardland is not at all what forgiveness is elsewhere. 

This, I suspect, is because the Gothard cult was designed by a perp. 

Whatever people in that cult go through when things like this happen pretty much obliterates the possibility of a common-sense approach being taken, at least until the people get wholly out of the cult. A ton of people who HAVE gotten out attest to that. 

So whatever we say about how these things can be and are dealt with normally, we should probably still remember that while those facts obtain in the average situation, they don't necessarily have any relevance at all to what convolutions appear in people's heads when they live in the upside-down Gothard world, learn nothing but what Gothard has declared, and participate in the daily Gothard rituals. All of which is true of the Duggarlings. 

Yes of course, I was speaking in general, having done some work with a Restorative Justice Program.  Not the fundies, not Gothard.

[JoanArc]

2 hours ago, Mojitogirl said:

Boob looks like he’s lost quite a bit of weight. He also looks refreshed as does Michelle.   They probably took one of those nip and tuck spa vacations. 

Angling for their big comeback. Josie better sing her heart out.

[Fuzzysox]

Any clue where they went for a honeymoon?

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, lookeyloo said:

Yes of course, I was speaking in general, having done some work with a Restorative Justice Program.  Not the fundies, not Gothard.

Yep, I know. But I should have stated clearly at the outset that I think you're absolutely right in what you said! .... 

I was just trying to put the very good discussion of forgiveness, etc., in general back to the very weird context of Gothardville. .... Made me nervous to think that we might start believing that it's reasonable to expect Gothard brainwashees to easily function the way the average person does is all! 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Churchhoney

[Ijustwantsomechips]

So am I the only one who thinks the lack of SiRen sightings means another blessing is on the way? Not that i care...

[Christina87]

12 hours ago, Heathen said:

Good grief. I have a renewed horror (and sorrow) at just how awful the Rodriguii girls look. 

I feel so sorry for them! I'm sure they have little control over their look, but why would anyone choose to present themselves like that? Reminds me of this substitute teacher we had in the early 2000's, who had the biggest eighties hair, plus the heaviest makeup you can imagine! Any sane person would do a double take. I wish these poor girls could at least leave the 80's. Doesn't JillRod see that other people look way different / better? You'd think, with the lack of resources they have, a regular hairstyle would be easier than using all the heating implements required in those big bangs. 

[Heathen]

48 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

I feel so sorry for them! I'm sure they have little control over their look, but why would anyone choose to present themselves like that? Reminds me of this substitute teacher we had in the early 2000's, who had the biggest eighties hair, plus the heaviest makeup you can imagine! Any sane person would do a double take. I wish these poor girls could at least leave the 80's. Doesn't JillRod see that other people look way different / better? You'd think, with the lack of resources they have, a regular hairstyle would be easier than using all the heating implements required in those big bangs. 

I maintain that Jill Rod makes her daughters dress and groom like that, because them looking so awful makes her look better. Jill dresses and grooms more modernly, even if she does overdo it. 

[Fuzzysox]

2 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I feel so sorry for them! I'm sure they have little control over their look, but why would anyone choose to present themselves like that? Reminds me of this substitute teacher we had in the early 2000's, who had the biggest eighties hair, plus the heaviest makeup you can imagine! Any sane person would do a double take. I wish these poor girls could at least leave the 80's. Doesn't JillRod see that other people look way different / better? You'd think, with the lack of resources they have, a regular hairstyle would be easier than using all the heating implements required in those big bangs. 

My cousin's wife in Sicily is a teacher and no one has the guts to tell her that NO bright blue eyeshadow just like Mimi from the Drew Carey show is NOT in fashion. She wears it with every outfit. Somewhere along the lines she must have watched it as a kid on tv dubbed and thought this is what an American looks like!?!?!? OMG that is what I think of Jill and her girls. Jill must have watched Lawrence Welk as a kid and thinks that big hair is the way to God's heart! lol

[awaken]

“Feminine touches” as Jill likes to say!

[sixlets]

8 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I feel so sorry for them! I'm sure they have little control over their look, but why would anyone choose to present themselves like that? Reminds me of this substitute teacher we had in the early 2000's, who had the biggest eighties hair, plus the heaviest makeup you can imagine! Any sane person would do a double take. I wish these poor girls could at least leave the 80's. Doesn't JillRod see that other people look way different / better? You'd think, with the lack of resources they have, a regular hairstyle would be easier than using all the heating implements required in those big bangs. 

Was she a music teacher?  She sounds exactly like my chorus sub from the mid-90s.  We were all seated in the auditorium waiting for her, and this woman walks in looking like an NYC hooker. Everyone went silent.  Her winged eyeliner went about 1/2" from the far edge of her eyebrow, and she loved her blue & pink eyeshadow.  She was a permanent sub, and every day was like Christmas morning.  We never knew what we were going to get.

Kendra & Nurie are roughly 8 1/2 months apart in age, but Nurie looks like her mother in that photo.  That poor girl has no chance.  Of anything.

On topic-Abbie looked beautiful, and JD looks peaceful & happy.  It seems like, for the first time, he can just breathe and be himself.  I think these two will go the distance.

[kokapetl]

11 hours ago, Fuzzysox said:

Any clue where they went for a honeymoon?

LaGuardia?

[Heathen]

14 minutes ago, sixlets said:

Kendra & Nurie are roughly 8 1/2 months apart in age, but Nurie looks like her mother in that photo.  That poor girl has no chance.  Of anything.

On topic-Abbie looked beautiful, and JD looks peaceful & happy.  It seems like, for the first time, he can just breathe and be himself.  I think these two will go the distance.

That isn't Nurie with Kendra -- it's one of the other Rodriguii sisters, I think either Renee or Kaylee. I agree that she has no chance at anything. The look in her eyes is so desperate. 

I hope Abbie can help John David recover from his shitty childhood, as much as he can recover while essentially remaining in the cult. 

[lascuba]

43 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

LaGuardia?

Sounds a bit exotic for them. 

[Temperance]

13 hours ago, Heathen said:

I maintain that Jill Rod makes her daughters dress and groom like that, because them looking so awful makes her look better. Jill dresses and grooms more modernly, even if she does overdo it. 

I think it's more just Jill appreciates that look from when she was young. As the old song said "But she's still preoccupied/ with 19, 19, 1985."

[PikaScrewChu]

On 11/9/2018 at 9:14 AM, Fuzzysox said:

Any clue where they went for a honeymoon?

The TLC honeymoon is more than likely somewhere in Europe. Since Benessa got France and Italy, JoKen got Greece, Joystin got Switzerland, and SiRen got Austria you can start narrowing it down from there. I'm going to guess Spain or Portugal for the TLC honeymoon.

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

The TLC honeymoon is more than likely somewhere in Europe. Since Benessa got France and Italy, JoKen got Greece, Joystin got Switzerland, and SiRen got Austria you can start narrowing it down from there. I'm going to guess Spain or Portugal for the TLC honeymoon.

The honeymoon episodes should be interesting to see Abbie’s personality. Something tells me JD will let her do most of the talking. 

Jinger & Jeremy had a nice honeymoon in Australia. Is Abbie athletic? I could see an island for water activities. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Scarlett45

[MunichNark]

2 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

The TLC honeymoon is more than likely somewhere in Europe. Since Benessa got France and Italy, JoKen got Greece, Joystin got Switzerland, and SiRen got Austria you can start narrowing it down from there. I'm going to guess Spain or Portugal for the TLC honeymoon.

 I am still waiting for them to come to Germany. If they were to go to Bavaria, I would sooo stalk, well, research them......

[Christina87]

7 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

The TLC honeymoon is more than likely somewhere in Europe. Since Benessa got France and Italy, JoKen got Greece, Joystin got Switzerland, and SiRen got Austria you can start narrowing it down from there. I'm going to guess Spain or Portugal for the TLC honeymoon.

No one's done London yet! I could sooooo see TLC hamming it up with the royal music, as well as double decker bus experiences. 

23 hours ago, sixlets said:

Was she a music teacher?  She sounds exactly like my chorus sub from the mid-90s.  We were all seated in the auditorium waiting for her, and this woman walks in looking like an NYC hooker. Everyone went silent.  Her winged eyeliner went about 1/2" from the far edge of her eyebrow, and she loved her blue & pink eyeshadow.  She was a permanent sub, and every day was like Christmas morning.  We never knew what we were going to get.

Kendra & Nurie are roughly 8 1/2 months apart in age, but Nurie looks like her mother in that photo.  That poor girl has no chance.  Of anything.

On topic-Abbie looked beautiful, and JD looks peaceful & happy.  It seems like, for the first time, he can just breathe and be himself.  I think these two will go the distance.

Hahahaha i'm not sure what kind of teaching she was trained to do, but we had her in middle school for a lot of subjects. Haha that was definitely what she looked like! It was SHOCKING...like...to the level where you'd automatically do a double take. 

[Sew Sumi]

The Duggars already toured England and Scotland (remember the castle where Boob declared that King James wrote the bible?). I doubt TLC will take them back there.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Sew Sumi

[Heathen]

18 hours ago, Temperance said:

I think it's more just Jill appreciates that look from when she was young. As the old song said "But she's still preoccupied/ with 19, 19, 1985."

That look isn't 1985. It's more like 1945! 

[Temperance]

On 11/9/2018 at 4:08 AM, GeeGolly said:

Happy for you that you have peace now.

I would like to add to this. Forgiveness does not always include returning to status quo. It doesn't mean no worries, let's be friends and as @Absolom posted, forget anything happened. Forgiveness is more about accepting a trauma occurred and moving forward. It's more about allowing yourself let go of toxic feelings so hate, shame, hurt, etc don't become embedded in who you are. And forgiveness is usually not a one shot deal, it's something you may need to do often.

Using the first stanza of the Serenity Prayer (with or without the word God) often helps folks to move toward forgiving themselves, others and/or traumas.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can; 
and wisdom to know the difference.
 

Forgiveness for me is different from acceptance. What you're describing sounds like acceptance, not forgiveness. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Temperance

[GeeGolly]

18 minutes ago, Temperance said:

Forgiveness for me is different from acceptance. What you're describing sounds like acceptance, not forgiveness. 

And to me acceptance is a large part of forgiveness. Forgiveness is very abstract, not concrete like I mentioned in the original post. I guess we can agree to disagree.

[Churchhoney]

The honeymoon will be to whatever country/other offers the network the best deal for their minute of U.S. TeeVee exposure. 

[LilJen]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:33 AM, Barb23 said:

It surprises me Josh was in JD's wedding. JD seemed very upset & disappointed with Josh over the molestations & probably the infidelity as well.  As in being upset enough to not be included in my wedding upset. Maybe time healed things (can't see how) or JB had a say in the matter.

Guessing he was forced to forgive, and their brand of forgiveness includes having the person continue to remain close and give you wedding advice in spite of the scumbag's history.

Helpful words on what forgiveness is and is not

Edited November 11, 2018 by LilJen

[FizzyPuff]

14 HOURS AGO, CHRISTINA87 SAID:

No one's done London yet! I could sooooo see TLC hamming it up with the royal music, as well as double decker bus experiences. 

Londoner here, honestly I wouldn’t recommend London for a honeymoon, if you wanted to get married here though there’s some nice places. 

[Albanyguy]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:07 AM, Puffin said:

No one's done London yet!

But the whole tribe has already been to England. Remember, Jim Bob pointed out the place where King James wrote the Bible!

Edited November 15, 2018 by Albanyguy