S03.E08: Crisis On Earth-X (4)

[johntfs]

21 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Just coming here to say - I really, really hope they don't do this as a storyline.  It's gross and takes consent to a whole other level.  Like can someone with multiple personality disorder actually give consent?

Part of it depends on whether Caitlin has multiple personality disorder or just multiple personalities who happen to "timeshare" a physical form.  While the initial take on Killer Frost was that she was evil or a kind of disease to be cured, things have progressed somewhat.  Caitlin made reference to the time "Killer Frost went to Burning Man."  So, while they clearly have different fashion tastes, both women seem capable of making judgements about their lives, including who, if anyone, they wish to have sex with.

[Winston Wolfe]

It occurs to me that the Earth-X Nazis are really, really dumb.  Let's head-cannon and say that Evil Kara's solar energy build up was a result of ill-considered experiments to amplify her powers ("let's just say that like Icarus I flew to close to the Sun").  That being the case, she could have easily "vented" the excess solar radiation with periodic Nova-bursts of Heat Vision.  There's even a Marvel Universe precedent for this theory; back when Havok (Cyclops' younger brother) was introduced, he would periodically shed excess cosmic energy by walking into the desert and releasing massive amounts of energy in a single shot.  Evil Kara could easily have done the same thing.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Winston Wolfe

[Lugal]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Why does there need to be a denouement for them right now?  They've met.  He's aware of (and attracted to) her alter ego.  That's enough for now.  There's always later in the season or next season when Mick and KF cchill out to get hot and heavy and then a naked Caitlin wakes up in bed with Mick.  Cue shame and horror played for laughs.  Or maybe not if Caitlin starts to own her tendency to hang out with "bad boys."  Mick is at least an improvement on Zoom and Savitar.

I don't think we need anything so grand.  More like last year's crossover when Kara is about to leave and Mick says "Call me, Skirt."  It could be as simple as he claps Caitlin on the shoulder and says "Have your mean roommate call me."

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

a Persian Muslim female superhero (Zari)

Not to nitpick, but I thought Zari was Arabic (as opposed to Tala Ashe, who is Iranian/Persian)

[wingster55]

Legends is doing a good job with its non-white characters *this year*. Not so much last year.

All Amaya was, was a story for Nate. 

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

I feel like some don't understand that it wasn't just that one thing - it was the combination of all of it that removed Barry and Iris from a narrative that should have been about them and instead used them to push the Olicity narrative at their own expense.  B/I weren't given any narrative priority. 

I think it's interesting you're blaming Olicity for taking the narrative away from Westallen, but not once have you considered that the real problem was ExOliver/Kara, who had more screentime together and focus than both canon couples. The show could have easily cut out the multiple scenes of two Nazis reaffirming their love for each other (because who the hell wanted to see that?) to give the weddings the time they deserved. 

[johntfs]

5 minutes ago, Lugal said:

I don't think we need anything so grand.  More like last year's crossover when Kara is about to leave and Mick says "Call me, Skirt."  It could be as simple as he claps Caitlin on the shoulder and says "Have your mean roommate call me."

Not to nitpick, but I thought Zari was Arabic (as opposed to Tala Ashe, who is Iranian/Persian)

That might have worked for the end of this crossover, but I figure they'll want to do something a bit more involved for the next one.

To my knowledge Zari's heritage has never been outright stated.  She apparently speaks Arabic (or at least uses some Arabic words), but to my knowledge nothing definitive has been said one way or another.

[AudienceofOne]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

I think it's interesting you're blaming Olicity for taking the narrative away from Westallen, but not once have you considered that the real problem was ExOliver/Kara, who had more screentime together and focus than both canon couples. The show could have easily cut out the multiple scenes of two Nazis reaffirming their love for each other (because who the hell wanted to see that?) to give the weddings the time they deserved. 

Not to mention the sheer volume of hours Flash has devoted to the Iris/Barry wedding while Oliver and Felicity barely got back together and have now had their wedding tacked onto somebody else's. And I can't wait for Oliver to explain to his son that he just got married without him. There was very little Olicity in this that I saw, other than the argument and a few small references to it. While there was a weird amount of Oliver/Kara

As somebody who watches (or, at this stage, hate-watches) all four shows, I understand that Barry/Iris shippers are very sensitive about the treatment of the couple. But I would have thought having them get married in an episode of LoT would have annoyed them more.

[InsertWordHere]

59 minutes ago, Trini said:

It's just that marriage is a big milestone; it should be more than 'well at least they're legal now, so, ...'

I feel the total opposite. I love when people reject all the pomp and circumstance of a traditional affair.  I especially love it in media when a couple whose wedding is interrupted just decides they can’t wait another minute to not be married. It’s the best of both worlds (or all 53) IMO because they still did the whole dressing up and being with family thing and would have gotten married right then if evil people from another world hadn’t tried to steal the heart of one of their friends. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

There was very little Olicity in this that I saw, other than the argument and a few small references to it. While there was a weird amount of Oliver/Kara

Olicity had their argument at the rehearsal dinner (2-3 minutes) in part 1, followup conversation (2-3) minutes in part 2, 30 seconds in a shared scene with Barry/Iris also in part 2, 30 second reunion in part 4, and then the minutes at the end of the crossover. Meanwhile, EXOliver/Kara had scene after scene of "I love yous"and kisses and "we're gonna go kill the weaklings, muahahaha". I have no idea why the writers thought a Nazi love story it would be a good idea, much less spend so much time on them.

[Lantern7]

Idea for a DVD extra or web-exclusive bit: highlights of the crossover, watched by Cliff DeVoe, Cayden James and Damien Dark. Shit, their actors could provide their voices to sketchy cartoons, and it would still be fun. I know, DD is a bad on LoT, not the Big Bad, but I think he'd be better than Maltus (is that the name?) Reign wouldn't show up because she's on another Earth. Also, you figure she's probably settling into her Fortress of Sanctuary. It's basically the Fortress of Solitude, only in a desert instead of the Arctic.

[Miss Dee]

A villains-based commentary on Crisis? Sign me up!

[CabotCove]

Quote

When I look at the history of WestAllen they have just as many fits and starts as Olicity over their relationship.  I guess to me I don't see how either is really the 'Gold Standard' since they are 3 highly fallible imperfect humans and one highly fallible, imperfect meta human.

They are both messed up and good in their own ways. 

I never said WA were flawless, i just find O/F to have too many problems , which i wont go into here. Not important. Everyone gets to enjoy what they like.

Edited November 30, 2017 by HeroLeague

[Jediknight]

10 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

If there are 53 Earths with versions of each character, why isn't their a Supergirl on Earth 1? Barry had never heard of her when they first met and then Nate refers to himself as The Man of Steel, so presumably he's never heard of Superman either.

Was that robot supposed to be Metallo?

Harry said there are also 53 Kryptons, so Krypton probably hasn't exploded in Earth 1.

Yep, it was Metallo.

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

I hear you. The good news is that of all the current Arrowverse shows, Legends is the least likely to do this. I'm not sure Phil Klemmer gets enough credit for his showrunning. Legends has the least problematic treatment of its minority groups; it has a very diverse writing room, if pics are anything to go by; and it shines in its treatment of their women characters and their agency. Klemmer appears to be a very soft-spoken and unassuming person, and what he has to say about Legends it seems you can take to the bank. I have a lot more trust in him than I do the other show runners.

And hasn't he been the only showrunner whose name hasn't come up in harassment allegations?  If WB cleans house, I could see them offering him a promotion.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

I just realized. Overgirl is the wife of the fuhrer, and her husband's name is Queen. So she's both literally and figuratively an Evil Queen.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[johntfs]

6 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I just realized. Overgirl is the wife of the fuhrer, and her husband's name is Queen. So she's both literally and figuratively an Evil Queen.

If DC was owned by Disney and this show was on ABC, an alternate wave to stop Overgirl would be to have Regina come over from Once Upon A Time and kill her for trademark infringement.

[legaleagle53]

15 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Harry said there are also 53 Kryptons, so Krypton probably hasn't exploded in Earth 1.

Either that, or else the Kal-El and Kara who would have come from Krypton-1 never made it off the planet before it exploded.

Just now, johntfs said:

If DC was owned by Disney and this show was on ABC, an alternate wave to stop Overgirl would be to have Regina come over from Once Upon A Time and kill her for trademark infringement.

Which might have been possible if Overgirl had been shown to be as vulnerable to magic as Supergirl always was in the comics.

[BkWurm1]

13 hours ago, DearEvette said:

After all that, are Felicity and Oliver even legally married?  Marriage license anyone?

In that moment?  No.  But as Mayor I'm sure he could easily get a license for all of them to sign when they returned to Star City.  And Barry could zip home to get he and Iris's so Diggle could sign it then.  

13 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

@Trisha quotes part of Oliver Sava's review for the AV Club.  Save says

This is why I don't mind his take on that final scene. He acknowledges that what Felicity did was rude and then explains how the crossover has done the work to show the close friendship between the couples so that Iris and Barry would be happy rather than annoyed. There have been some folks here whose defense was that what Felicity did wasn't rude when they know they know they wouldn't have been ok with this if the event had reversed the couples. Furthermore, others have insisted that Felicity's actions are ok because it's a tv show and they didn't have the time let Felicity's interruption not be rude. That's some weak sauce that folks would never accept for any other plot point.

It was rude for Felicity to interrupt, but they did enough on establishing the friendship between both couples that you can reasonably see that Iris and Barry might not mind. I did think it could have been written slightly better to come off a little less rude. But, it's ok to write critically about Oliver and Felicity. I feel like some folks here miss that. Additionally if you're making a case that because someone is critical of Felicity or Oliver's actions they are practically accusing Oliver or Felicity of causing global warming, being worse than Nazis, or the cause of all strife, then you are making a pretty rhetorically weak argument unless said person actually accused Oliver or Felicity of said things. It's ok to be critical of the characters while still liking them. I really like Barry, but think he was a dope for letting Thawne go. 

I have no problem accepting that Felicity interrupting was not following social norms but it feels like the intent behind it was twisted into something far more ugly than the character or the writers intended.  I can easily imagine the rest of them teasing Felicity about it for the rest of their lives.  So for me it's not the question if it was technically not the thing to do or not, but can people understand why it happened and what the feelings behind it were.  And I feel in this case it does matter more how the characters felt than how the audience reacts because it is about emotion in the scene, not the actions.  And it's very flawed and human and so prompted out of love prompted out of WA's love. 

Aw crap.  I just realized it's all tied back to Joe's speech.  Crap.  Now I have to stop complaining that he made it all about him, how their love helped him to his love, instead it's was foreshadowing that Iris and Barry's love would spark something in that moment to the point where Felicity couldn't hold back another second.  Dammit.  I liked mocking Joe over that.    

 

11 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Eobard was not from Earth-X; he wasn't a Nazi. This is the same Eobard with Wells's face from Season one Flash.

Nazi sympathizer then?  Collaborator?  That's a hard one to expunged from one's resume.  

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I could buy time remnant, I can buy his going to Earth X before his demise, I can buy a fair amount of things.

But what I don't get is why he hooked up with the Nazis in the first place. Or stayed hooked up.

Thawne (presumably) is not a particular believer in the philosophy of the Nazis. What does he have to gain from allying with them, other than getting to bring snark to broody Oliver? They should have just had Grant play another Evil Flash. 

It has been a while since Barry has made as patently stupid a decision as to let RF go, btw.

I'm wondering if Thawne going to EarthX was part of his plan to bring Barry down and conquer Earth1?  That's my only guess.  

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Yes, you notice how there are NO lines from Barry or Iris; they made the editing choice not to give them any say except silent approval. Of course they don't want to write anyone to look bad at their wedding (even though Felicity still comes off as rude), so no, they weren't going to have Barry or Iris tell them "No, you can't married with us, wait your turn".

There were just so many ways to make the scene better for everyone.

Sure but they didn't and that can be blamed on how tv works.  

5 hours ago, HeroLeague said:

Those 2 are amazing together, the whole Legends team is

Agree, it can actually help the characters be better. Fans who wont allow any criticism they are not doing their own favorites any favor. Sure there is absurd criticism out there, but but there is also fair criticism. 

I noticed..and of course Ray was awesome.

Quote

Wow, no one is saying that Felicity was the villain of the crossover, not even close, at least not as far as I have read.

 I think it's the unfair criticism that is at issue. Because yeah, she is in some places being called the villain of the crossover.   Worse than Nazi's and everything in between. And sadly, not just by the Reddit crowd.  And when a review on a mainstream site is more upset about an briefly stalled "I now pronounce you" than the actions of the actual Nazi's it's very easy to see such comments as also implying Felicity is worse than Nazis. 

So while it's very easy to agree that Felicity broke social rules, aka she was rude, it's the degree to which she is being judged on how terrible an action that is hard to react to.  These characters are occasionally rude all the time but I look at the WHY behind it to see if I want to be upset or not even if the characters aren't and this particular situation seems IMO to have well explained the feelings behind it and given us moments in Barry and Iris's life to show they'd be understanding as well.  I guess that's what I'm curious about.  Sure, say it was breaking "the rules" or rude, but do people actually think Barry and Iris were upset? 

 

 

4 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

1. I reckon Iris had already given up on a traditional wedding at that point, so an inpromptu wedding and their friends married at the same time probably didn't phase her. She probably did have a "SHIT! I forgot about Dad!!" moment five minutes later. But I'm betting she was crossing her fingers throughout . . . not lying to Barry, but hoping and praying the Double Nazis of Earth-XX wouldn't show up. Barry could run, but I didn't see any arrows around Oliver.

2. Overall question not pertaining to LoT: The invasion from Earth-X was because Overgirl (not Overwoman?) needed Kara's heart, right? Does that mean that it was Kara's fault for going to Earth-1 with Alex? If she decided to stay home and watch TV, Earth-X invades Earth-Supergirl (I forgot the number). You can imagine the Nazis peering into periscope. "She's gone!! Where did she-? Oh, that Earth. Well, we did plan on fighting her cousin, but I think a few dozen lesser heroes would be easier."

Also: no meeting of Sara and Dinah? No denouement with Mick and Caitlin? I'm not complaining, but a publisher could probably do a prose novel and expand on everything.

ETA for 3. I'm guessing that Barry didn't want to fuck with time anymore than he had in the past, so he let Thrawne live. I think the implication was that this Reverse Flash had Wells' face, so he came from the time he was with Barry or before. When he usurped the identity, I think it was to the bone, as opposed to whatever gizmo Harry used in the past. Thrawne goes "home," torments Barry, winks out of existence when Eddie kills himself, and then the Legends end him for good. Maybe. I'm filing this under "Never Say Never," meaning that I don't think that Merlyn died from a landmine, even though the character is a shitweasel and unworthy of being played by John Barrowman.

6

#2 Yup, I think that is what happened except that they also planned on getting around to E1 eventually?

#3 I disagree with because he talked about putting on that face for fun and then talked about the fifteen years he'd been stuck playing the part.  So I think the implication was he was from later in the timeline but yeah, how that is makes no sense.  

 

1 hour ago, Winston Wolfe said:

It occurs to me that the Earth-X Nazis are really, really dumb.  Let's head-cannon and say that Evil Kara's solar energy build up was a result of ill-considered experiments to amplify her powers ("let's just say that like Icarus I flew to close to the Sun").  That being the case, she could have easily "vented" the excess solar radiation with periodic Nova-bursts of Heat Vision.  There's even a Marvel Universe precedent for this theory; back when Havok (Cyclops' younger brother) was introduced, he would periodically shed excess cosmic energy burst by walking into the desert and releasing massive amounts of energy in a single shot.  Evil Kara could easily have done the same thing.

1

There is a precedent for KaraX blowing up like that.  In the All-Star Superman comic/movie, he gets too close to the sun and there's nothing anyone can do to save him.  (And the idea that a new heart would fix her oversaturated cells is ridiculous)

35 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Harry said there are also 53 Kryptons, so Krypton probably hasn't exploded in Earth 1.

Yep, it was Metallo.

And hasn't he been the only showrunner whose name hasn't come up in harassment allegations?  If WB cleans house, I could see them offering him a promotion.

 

 

19 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Either that, or else the Kal-El and Kara who would have come from Krypton-1 never made it off the planet before it exploded.

Which might have been possible if Overgirl had been shown to be as vulnerable to magic as Supergirl always was in the comics.

1

Or her pod just hasn't been recovered yet or she's still hiding from the world or hanging with the Dominators or the new ward of Mon-el's evil family.  Lots of options, lol.  Same for Superman.  

Edited November 30, 2017 by BkWurm1

[InsertWordHere]

I would actually root for Regina over Nazis. Although considering some of her worst acts, she might just ally herself with them instead. Probably not worth the risk. 

18 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Which might have been possible if Overgirl had been shown to be as vulnerable to magic as Supergirl always was in the comics.

[AudienceofOne]

Barry let Thawne go because he, Barry, couldn't handle the idea of killing somebody. Considering the number of faceless Nazis mowed down by the team, this is possibly the most selfish act in the entire crossover. Thawne isn't somehow less culpable because he's not technically a Nazi and while I don't think murdering somebody is ever the answer, there was nothing Thawne did or said that justified him being spared over everyone else. Oliver, you'll notice, happily killed himself. I'm surprised there isn't an essay on that by somebody on here.

[BkWurm1]

12 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Barry let Thawne go because he, Barry, couldn't handle the idea of killing somebody. Considering the number of faceless Nazis mowed down by the team, this is possibly the most selfish act in the entire crossover. Thawne isn't somehow less culpable because he's not technically a Nazi and while I don't think murdering somebody is ever the answer, there was nothing Thawne did or said that justified him being spared over everyone else. Oliver, you'll notice, happily killed himself. I'm surprised there isn't an essay on that by somebody on here.

I think part of why there isn't is that no one can explain how Thawne is even alive and at what point in his "life" he's even at.  He was post season one but after Barry's Flashpoint fun, I'm not sure how many Thawnes are even out there.  Did the Legends kill the one that Barry let go back in Flashpoint?  Or did they take out the one that was just a time remnant on the run waiting for Eddie's death to catch up with him?  But if they killed original Thawne and the one Barry let go after Flashpoint was still out there, how could he be the one in the crossover since that version (the one created by Flashpoint mess) of Thawne never lived his life as Wells.  It's so freaking confusing and unknowable that it's hard to do more than shake your fist and say Dammit Barry!

Edited November 30, 2017 by BkWurm1

[AudienceofOne]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think part of why there isn't is that no one can explain how Thawne is even alive and at what point in his "life" he's even at. 

TIME TRAVEL!

No, really, whenever something happens in this show that makes no sense they just say "time travel" or "quantum" and expect that to be enough. In the future, they should just say "fuck Eddie" and be done with it.

[tennisgurl]

40 minutes ago, johntfs said:

If DC was owned by Disney and this show was on ABC, an alternate wave to stop Overgirl would be to have Regina come over from Once Upon A Time and kill her for trademark infringement.

And then Regina would cry and everyone would be expected to worship her for the rest of the hour. Her super power is getting everyone to forget how many peoples she`s murdered that literally no one cares about anymore. 

[Wishing Well]

I was rewatching and realized that Nate and friends brought the speedster gun from the Waverider to Star Labs.  My Legends I can't.

 

also as an aside, my phone now recognizes waverider as a word and has it on predictive test when I type in W-A

[Maelstrom]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I recently watched some of the first season for the first time in awhile (I plan on watching the rest with my sister soon), and, honestly, its not that bad. 

When I mainlined season one earlier this year I enjoyed it quite a bit, enough to keep watching season two and now season three. Is it perfect? Sure it’s not, but it’s still a hell of a lot of fun. I liked having WM and Arthur Darvill full time, and it did a good job of establishing all of the different characters for a non-Flarrowversse viewer such as myself. The show has definitely improved as it’s gone along, but there are some gems to be found in season one, if you don’t mind sifting through the hawk-shaped rubble. ;)

As for the crossover, I’ve been trying to figure out where in the world Mick was keeping his heat gun at the wedding, since he brought it out immediately after the Nazis interrupted. Did he stash it under a pew?

Forgot to say last night how much I loved Leo’s “Gonna need a hug, Barry.” I’m betting there were so many happy shippers at that moment.

[Proteus]

3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I hear you. The good news is that of all the current Arrowverse shows, Legends is the least likely to do this. I'm not sure Phil Klemmer gets enough credit for his showrunning. Legends has the least problematic treatment of its minority groups; it has a very diverse writing room, if pics are anything to go by; and it shines in its treatment of their women characters and their agency. Klemmer appears to be a very soft-spoken and unassuming person, and what he has to say about Legends it seems you can take to the bank. I have a lot more trust in him than I do the other show runners.

That said, I don't mind Mick and Caitlin/KF ending up in bed together (I know you're all shocked to hear me say that; LOOK I AM NOT A UNREASONABLE ATOMWAVE SHIPPER OKAY), because I know if it's the Legends writers doing it there will be no consent issues. Caitlyn and Killer Frost (if still separate) will know exactly what she is doing; and whatever faults have been attributed to Mick - and they are legion - sexual aggression or underhanded ness has *never* been one of them. He's too direct for that.

I ship them as well!

[Trini]

They just wrote themselves into a corner by including Dark Flash/Thawne. They needed a evil counterpart for the Flash, and then they really didn't think through how he would exit.

 

2 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

 

As somebody who watches (or, at this stage, hate-watches) all four shows, I understand that Barry/Iris shippers are very sensitive about the treatment of the couple. But I would have thought having them get married in an episode of LoT would have annoyed them more.

Don't worry, it's all annoying.

 

2 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I feel the total opposite. I love when people reject all the pomp and circumstance of a traditional affair.  I especially love it in media when a couple whose wedding is interrupted just decides they can’t wait another minute to not be married. It’s the best of both worlds (or all 53) IMO because they still did the whole dressing up and being with family thing and would have gotten married right then if evil people from another world hadn’t tried to steal the heart of one of their friends. 

... I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

[statsgirl]

I think Barry didn't kill Thawne because the shows keep pushing Good!Barry as opposed to Bad/Immoral!Oliver.   The Flash writers especially keep writing the contrast between Barry who is good and saves Central City, and Oliver who kills people.  I don't think Joe has ever said a good word about Oliver in all four seasons.

So Oliver was fine with killing his Nazi self but Barry was too good and kind-hearted to kill Thawne.

[Mellowyellow]

It made Barry look like an idiot. Oliver was awesome for arrowing his evil nazi gangbanger whereas Barry waffled around like usual. 

I agree they are probably trying to show that he's good or whatever but it doesn't make sense and just makes him look stupid.

That was one of my main gripes from this crossover. Let him kill Thawne and then bring him back again if you want to later. I'm sure they can think of some stupid random reason. It made Barry foolish for no good purpose. As someone who actually likes Barry I'm cross!

[johntfs]

33 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Barry was too good and kind-hearted to kill Thawne.

 

The weird thing to me is that it kind of makes Barry come off a bit worse.  In season 2 he basically damned Zoom to become the Black Flash.  In season 3 he couldn't quite bring himself to kill Savitar, so Iris had to do it.  Refusing to kill doesn't make Barry more noble.  It makes him the little kid who wants other people to clean up his mess.

Edited November 30, 2017 by johntfs

[statsgirl]

It ends up being perverse not just for Barry though.  They had a pipeline where they would put metas without trial or consequent conviction.  While trying to show that Barry is a better superhero than Oliver, they basically created their own Guantanamo.  (And goodness knows how they were fed or exercised.)

[AudienceofOne]

26 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

It made Barry look like an idiot. Oliver was awesome for arrowing his evil nazi gangbanger whereas Barry waffled around like usual. 

I agree they are probably trying to show that he's good or whatever but it doesn't make sense and just makes him look stupid.

My problem is not that he spared Thawne but that he didn't spare anyone else. He had no problem about anybody else dying and happily stood by while they were getting mowed down. I hate the hypocrisy of somebody who is essentially delegating their murder. As I said, I don't believe that murder is necessarily a solution but I hate when superheroes are framed as better than others because they don't personally do their killing.

22 minutes ago, johntfs said:

The weird thing to me is that it kind of makes Barry come off a bit worse.  In season 2 he basically damned Zoom to become the Black Flash.  In season 3 he couldn't quite bring himself to kill Savitar, so Iris had to do it.  Refusing to kill doesn't make Barry more noble.  It makes him the little kid who wants other people to clean up his mess.

This.

13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It ends up being perverse not just for Barry though.  They had a pipeline where they would put metas without trial or consequent conviction.  While trying to show that Barry is a better superhero than Oliver, they basically created their own Guantanamo.  (And goodness knows how they were fed or exercised.)

See my previous Nazi rant. Not only do we have camps where people are detained without charge in our world, our heroes are the ones who run one.

[Lantern7]

7 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

My problem is not that he spared Thawne but that he didn't spare anyone else. He had no problem about anybody else dying and happily stood by while they were getting mowed down. I hate the hypocrisy of somebody who is essentially delegating their murder. As I said, I don't believe that murder is necessarily a solution but I hate when superheroes are framed as better than others because they don't personally do their killing.

Implication: "C'mon Barry! Run, Barry, run . . . and kill me!!!" "No." "The hell you mean 'no'?!?" "Because you're not a Nazi." "That's the main reason?" "No . . . Jay and Jesse visited me separately, and they made it clear that they would kick my ass if I fucked with the timeline again. And I have zero idea where and when you're from. Also, you got Welles' face. I can't murder that."

[twoods]

Finally caught the last half of this crossover because I knew I would be emotionally drained with Stein's death, but it was so much worse than I had imagined. 15 minutes after and still sobbing- his death scene and funeral gutted me, especially Jax losing it. I loved the crossover but do not want to watch those scenes again. Poor Jax- the guilt of Stein's death is going to eat him for months. 

The Legends crossover was very good. All of the characters got some screen time and it was nice having everyone interact together. The Legends kicked so much ass, too.

I didn't mind Olicity getting married with WestAllen. Stopped watching Arrow 2 seasons ago and after all the angst, I'm glad those two crazy kids finally got married. It's about damn time. And WestAllen's vows were perfect. 

[Kromm]

22 hours ago, wingster55 said:

I honestly don't get why it's so inexplicable to some that Felicity's interruption would get people upset. Why can't you (general you) to seem swallow that?

I think it's not an issue understanding why it seemed wrong to people. That's easy. It's more a matter of scale. Why was it more than just an annoyance? It was 90 seconds out of 180 minutes of show.  To each his or her own, but on my personal scale it was worth an eyeroll more than "this ruined everything".

[Bridget]

16 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Just give Legends six months. This will be a thing. And it could be Gumdrop....

To all new viewers, these are the Top Ten Reasons why you should give Legends a(nother) chance:

1) The writers know how to write for an ensemble.

2) It's a more diverse crew, with two WoC who are written well.

3) No need for #feminism here - Legends lives and breathes it.

4) It really takes advantage of the fact this is a comic book universe; it's not shy to embrace that heritage.

5) All the characters can do comedy and drama. And the comedy, she is high with Legends.

6) If you like pop-culture references: not only is Cisco the spirit animal of the Waverider crew, Legends goes further than any of the other shows in its commitment to following that through. Like...you have NO idea how committed.

7) It's a show where each season seems poised to surpass the one before it. Even Season 1 is not bad if you watch it for the characters and not the plots, knowing the plotting gets better in Season 2.

8) There are no sacred cows among the characters. Each one screws up; each one has moments of heroism. I'd be really hard-pressed to pinpoint one that seems to be the writers' "favourite" - because honestly, the writers seem to love writing for them all.

9) There are no OTPs. There's some romance, of course, but it's all sort of chill. There are loads of other types of relationships, though, and they get you really invested as a viewer.

10) Mick Rory. You have no idea if all you've seen of him is in the crossovers or The Flash. The most consistent remark I've heard in all corners of the Internet is, "If you had told me after his first Flash appearance that Mick Rory would become a breakout character in the Arrowverse and I would become so emotionally invested in him, I'd have laughed in your face." His character arc is arguably one of the best across all four series. And if you are that rare bird for whom Mick does nothing for you, Legends has an ability to rehabilitate other characters that may have been disliked in the Arrowverse. Didn't really cotton to Ray, or Jax, or even Damian Dhark or Malcolm Merlyn on their respective shows? You need to watch them on this one.

In short: Get thee to a Netflix account and catch up fast! Legends deserves more love and better ratings.

Word to this entire post.

So damn true - and I'm claiming this as someone who struggled with the first season, but kept watching because of Wentworth Miller & Brandon Routh (which is something that I never do!). I knew it would get better, and it surpassed my expectations in ways that I can't articulate.

[jhlipton]

On 11/28/2017 at 7:13 PM, benteen said:

Way to go letting Thawne get away scot free to kill again, Barry.  What a hero...

I would have preferred this:

"Barry Allen doesn't kill"

"In your case, I'll make an exception!"

(WE had this same discussion on Gotham a few weeks ago...)

And speaking of Gotham:

On 11/28/2017 at 8:33 PM, MissL said:

I though the Lazarus Pit was destroyed anyway? Wasn't it? Someone remember better than me?   I thought they did that so they couldn't keep "going back to that well" so to speak in the story anytime someone died.

The Pit exists on that show -- but it doesn't induce bloodlust that we've seen.

On 11/28/2017 at 9:14 PM, Lantern7 said:

I got prickly seeing Ray/Atom bite off Ms. Marvel/Kamala Khan's power and catchphrase.

"Embiggen!" has been around a lot longer than that!

On 11/28/2017 at 9:46 PM, phoenics said:

I definitely want to give Legends a chance.

Please come to LoT.  Even the dreaded first season, the female HawkTwit was black, the male HawkTwit was white, and Randal Bwhaha Savage was Egyptian (I don't know what Casper Crump's ethnicity is, just that he was born in Denmark).

21 hours ago, Wishing Well said:

Whatever "girl power" or #feminism the Arrow and Flash writers were attempting got stomped to the trash the second Amaya and Zari showed up.  Queens.

The women rule on LoT.  This season Sara was made Captain of the Waverider with no dissent -- she's their leader and they all acknowledge that.  This week, she was out of commission and the others were kind of goofing off until one said "When Sara comes back, she's not going to want to see us slacking!"

16 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

To all new viewers, these are the Top Ten Reasons why you should give Legends a(nother) chance:

In short: Get thee to a Netflix account and catch up fast! Legends deserves more love and better ratings.

All this and more!

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

given that the Legends have a timeship with a supercomputer, they should be able to solve almost any problem.

Have you met the Legends?  They could have the powers of all the superheroes EVER and still screw things up (in a highly entertaining fashion).  Not for nothing does Sara say "We take a chainsaw to history!"

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The main problem in S1, IMO, was the weakness of Vandal Savage as a villain and a concept. S1 was characterized by Rip Hunter's man-pain about losing his wife and kid to Savage as he builds up an army and conquers much of the future.

Seasons 2 and 3 have eliminated the angst and have worked much better as a mostly lighthearted romp through fixing time.

The horrid acting by the HawkTwits was another detriment.

3 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I would actually root for Regina over Nazis. Although considering some of her worst acts, she might just ally herself with them instead. Probably not worth the risk. 

Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz probably consider Eva Braun "bold and audacious".

[ItCouldBeWorse]

23 hours ago, Kromm said:

I find it even funnier that even though people probably are right that in some absolute real world sense this behavior might be unacceptable, this is both TV and a comic book. Plot expediency is important to both of those mediums, and this is both in one.  Also, moving on from imperfections and not letting little problems drag down the entire product is important too. This crossover was shockingly excellent enough that as annoying as this one detail is, it IS just one detail.  So much else was right with these four episodes that this is a tiny thing in comparison.  

I think it's kind of weird that people care so much which show each specific event happened on, or which episodes were light-hearted or moody.  I get that the weddings were a long time coming, but....   Didn't all four episodes have the same introduction?  I watched them as if they were just 4 parts of a mini-series.

11 hours ago, HeroLeague said:

I think you just have to treat these crossovers like one big movie. 

Exactly!

[TDT]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

They just wrote themselves into a corner by including Dark Flash/Thawne. They needed a evil counterpart for the Flash, and then they really didn't think through how he would exit

Maybe it wouldve been better if,since Barry and Iris are now official,they introduce another female  character who turns out to be an evil speedster,and this causes a love triangle..

[Jacks-Son]

To me, the best line so far, and I'm 1/3 rd of the way through the 4th of the Crossover eps is Cisco's, "Let's kick some ass!" That or, "Who needs an army when you have Legends!" by Nate. Love the Legends' entry into the series. Ray, Nate, Amaya, & Zari make quite an entrance.

[InsertWordHere]

I just rewatched the whole thing again and holy moly the Legends hour is non-stop entertainment and the scenes surrounding Stein’s death are so affecting. As soon as Ray shows up and they cut to Wild Dog and Mick being let out by Nate then Zari and Amaya the entire tone just improves for me and I didn’t even think the tone needed to be improved upon but it somehow was. 

A nice exchange I haven’t seen get much attention is the one between The Ray and Mr. Terrific about their superhero names. I also still love Leo calling Oliver “Ollie” and Sara and Oliver’s response. I just love Leo in general. 

Did anyone else think something was going to go horribly wrong when Frost pressed the big red button?  I guess it was just a great big threatening button which must not be pressed under any circumstances. 

I love it even more on rewatch. The whole thing is a really remarkable achievement. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[kismet]

I'm angry, I haven't read all 7 pages - I promise I will but I honestly can't right now.

I knew we were losing Victor Garber, I just thought that I would actually get to see him happy and retired. What a pathetic way to send him off... not even everybody at his funeral. He didn't die a Hero's death. And if it appeared like he did it's because VG & FD slayed their scenes like true professionals. I have now watched VG sacrifice his life for two of his onscreen children and all I can say is he is an amazing actor. So giving and loving in those scenes, it truly makes my heart creak and tears overflow.

I HATE THE CROSSOVERS!!!! EVERY YEAR I LOSE SOMETHING!!!! IT IS NOT FAIR!!! IT'S CRAPPY & INDULGENT STORYTELLING! Worst of all it fails to impress every year. What it does is make me hate the writer and realize why I dropped 3 out of the 4 shows.

Didn't watch the first 3 hours, don't think I missed much. And while scenes made me realize why I miss certain characters, it also made me realize why I can't watch them get messed around week after week by an incompetent group of writers who live out their little fantasies at the mercy of the audience and characters. And everyday I hope that LoT never meets that horrible fate that has been bestowed on the other 3 shows.

Oh yeah there was a quickie double wedding... what a waste...

Seriously even with low expectations this Flarrowverse manages to hurt me year after year. Please make this be the end of these ridiculous crossovers and shared universe of useless plots that only take and take from the show and NEVER EVER gives.

[Jacks-Son]

6 minutes ago, kismet said:

Didn't watch the first 3 hours, don't think I missed much.

I'm sorry you felt so disappointed. I'm one of those fans who watches all four of the shows and I loved it. It was especially satisfying to me because each of the teams, and even mixed part of the teams, made their entries in spectacular fashion and meshed so well. I would like to say that you missed a Hell of a Crossover and it was the best fun this season.

[kismet]

6 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

I'm sorry you felt so disappointed. I'm one of those fans who watches all four of the shows and I loved it. It was especially satisfying to me because each of the teams, and even mixed part of the teams, made their entries in spectacular fashion and meshed so well. I would like to say that you missed a Hell of a Crossover and it was the best fun this season.

Glad for you... hopefully the rest of the seasons treat you well. The Flarrowverse has done nothing but ruin good shows and characters in my eyes. I used to watch all 4 shows as well.  I don't need to watch a ridiculously plotted 4 hours of crossover to confirm that the Flarrowverse is not worth the investment of my time.

Edited November 30, 2017 by kismet

[Jacks-Son]

59 minutes ago, misgabi13 said:

I loved the cross over - and for everyone who does not watch every show and is complaining - all shows are on the CW - accept that they want you to watch all shows but, if you can't, don't complain when they cross over one show to another!

Too bad you can't give multiple "Likes".

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Either that, or else the Kal-El and Kara who would have come from Krypton-1 never made it off the planet before it exploded.

Or they never decided to become heroes for whatever reason.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Some tweaking of the episodes might have improved things. Sorry if this is too fan-fictiony, but I think it smooths over a lot of the issues that the eps had IMO.

Supergirl: Alex and Kara are talking much as we saw and preparing to go to the wedding. Suddenly Barry appears. "Hey, we were just about to head to Earth-1" But it's Barry-X, and he's brought Metallo along to ambush Kara. They take her back to Earth-X. Alex checks in with the DEO, and they don't have anything. She goes to Earth-1 to enlist the help of Barry and the gang. We learn that Barry-X is the Fuhrer and married to Overgirl and that he has kidnapped her to save Overgirl from Kryptonite poisoning (like others have said, solar poisoning makes no sense). Guardian-X attempts to get intel and tells the Freedom Fighters that the Earth X Nazis are preparing to strike at other worlds once Overgirl is restored to full strength, but gets taken down by Ollie-X. A strike force of Barry, Alex, Ollie, and some of the Legends go to Earth 1, beat up a bunch of Nazis and superNazis but end up getting captured mostly. Ollie is their only hope.

Arrow: Ollie is trying to work a plan, meets the Freedom Fighters and gets more backstory about Earth-X. He tries the undercover thing, just as before. With the Freedom Fighters' help, he frees the heroes from the work camp and they then rescue Supergirl as Wells-X is in the middle of his procedure. But Overgirl is in play. Barry-X is furious that these weaker beings have beaten him and plans revenge. The invasion of other worlds will start with Earth-1 ASAP.

Flash: All the pre-wedding and wedding stuff happens. The Nazis now have a reason to invade with a bunch of mooks, and attack Barry's wedding first. Barry-X mocks his Earth-1 doppelganger for marrying a schwartze instead of the Aryan perfection that is Overgirl. Superhero fight., much as in Part I, only this time our heroes aren't gawping at the notion of the evil doppelgangers. Waves of these Nazis keep coming and coming, and things look bleak for our heroes until...

Legends: The Legends go to Earth-X to change its history from one where the Nazis won the war to where the U.S. won. They figure out how to get to Earth X and go back in time while Supergirl, Flash and others continue to fight a losing battle on Earth-1. Supergirl, Flash and others get killed in the battle. They do Legendy things, get attacked by Waverider-X, and change history so that Earth-X becomes de-Nazified. Martin gets martyred in the process. With Earth-X de-Nazified, Barry and Iris get the uninterrupted ceremony they deserve, and Ollie and Felicity get inspired to get married as well.  

[darkestboy]

I loved all of it. It was big, it was epic, it was heartbreaking and it had some wonderful character interactions throughout the whole thing.

I wish Barry/Iris's day hadn't been interrupted by Nazis from another Earth or Olicity but it didn't stop the story from being excellent nonetheless and I guess both WestAllen and Olicity fans got their moments throughout the episodes.

LGBT fans got Sara/Alex (saw it coming but loved it) and Snart/The Ray, the latter which I absolutely loved. We better be seeing more of The Ray in these shows in the near future.

The evil versions of Oliver and Kara worked well enough but Eobard is definitely being a tad overused. He had his moments in here as did the evil versions of Quentin and Tommy to boot.

Stein's death got to me and he's going to be a massive loss for the Legends. All of his scenes with everyone, particularly Caitlin and Jax really hit home in the episodes.

Mick's comedic moments were nice but I loved his scene with Snart the most as well and the main plot was solid enough to carry the saga itself.

Some characters were a little shortchanged (Wally for example) but other than that, this was an excellent crossover and I can't wait to see how they top this next year, 10/10

[Sakura12]

5 hours ago, kismet said:

I'm angry, I haven't read all 7 pages - I promise I will but I honestly can't right now.

I knew we were losing Victor Garber, I just thought that I would actually get to see him happy and retired. What a pathetic way to send him off... not even everybody at his funeral. He didn't die a Hero's death. And if it appeared like he did it's because VG & FD slayed their scenes like true professionals. I have now watched VG sacrifice his life for two of his onscreen children and all I can say is he is an amazing actor. So giving and loving in those scenes, it truly makes my heart creak and tears overflow.

I think for an actor a big death scene is a better way to go out then just walking away. They want to actually act for their last scene.  

[DearEvette]

I haven't weighed in on the Barry not killing Thawne thing.  I understand the philosophy behind having Barry not kill him.  He's Barry he isn't an in-your-face killer.  So I get it.

But on the other hand, I hate Thawne so much.  Like, a LOT.  I was so happy when Sara let Black Flash have him.  I was thrilled when he dissolved into bits and his stupid face was so surprised.  So Barry not killing him bums me out.  It is also a huge missed opportunity.  This whole season Barry's been about closure.  He's finally at peace about his mother's death.  So getting rid of Thawne once and for all would have been the capper on that.  It would have been real closure. I hate that the writers didn't give either Barry or us the audience the credit to understand that getting rid of Thawne wouldn't have been some terrible blight on Barry's character.

[benteen]

Quote

In short: Get thee to a Netflix account and catch up fast! Legends deserves more love and better ratings.

Good God, yes.

Russell Tovey was fantastic as The Ray.  Very charismatic in the role.