S03.E08: Crisis On Earth-X (4)

[Mellowyellow]

37 minutes ago, Trisha said:

It's what some people call Felicity (usually as an insult). I've only ever seen it used on Reddit; surprised to see it here.

I was bummed when I saw that Felicity would be interrupting the WA wedding - not because I think it's rude but because I knew people would be so pressed about it. 

Meh! According to some people Felicity is responsible for sea turtles ingesting plastic, poor harvests and rising avocados prices in Australia. What can you do?

I still love her to bits because she's absolutely wonderful and we got two amazing scenes with her that I never dreamed we would get in this crossover! And that's not even the wedding or the Green Arrow kiss!!!!!!!

Edited November 29, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[Trisha]

14 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Meh! According to some people Felicity is responsible for sea turtle ingesting plastic, poor harvests and rising avocados in Australia. What can you do?

Exactly. I thought it was fine - maybe it helped that I had seen that pap video beforehand where you can clearly see Iris and Barry nodding and looking giddy when Felicity starts talking. Also, I liked the AV Club  review's take on it: 

Quote

As rude as it is for Felicity to hijack this big moment for Barry and Iris, it’s still a major step up from having your wedding interrupted by Nazis, and Crisis solidified the Felicity/Iris friendship so that this final double wedding is a joyous occasion for everyone involved.

[Snorfbat]

Just two couples, their friend to officiate and a puddle of vomit.

[Angel12d]

Some of my favorite Felicity moments throughout the crossover:

Her team-up with Iris was all I've ever wanted. You can tell CP and EBR are good friends in real life because it translates to an easy natural chemistry on screen. I really loved seeing them punch Nazis and then bump guns. Haha. It was very mission impossible for a while there, SmoakWest style.

Felicity had no qualms stepping in front of Kara to protect her. Love how she always wants to protect the other ladies.

Her speech to Nazi Oliver about her grandparents surviving the holocaust. I needed that a lot after all the vile/disturbing stuff we had to sit through.

Earth X Felicity getting in trouble for giving bread to starving kids showing me she has the kindest heart in all earths (probably, I mean, it's a lot of earths!) That whole scene was unexpected and broke my heart tbh.

Telling Oliver that her biggest fear was losing him and the way she got all choked up hurt my heart. My heart!

Edited November 29, 2017 by Angel12d

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Earth X Felicity getting in trouble for giving bread to starving kids showing me she has the kindest heart in all earths (probably, I mean, it's a lot of earths!) That whole scene was unexpected and broke my heart tbh.

Oh that scene crushed me. She was so small and pitiful and yet I thought it highlighted such an important aspect of her nature. Felicity Smoak is kind like you've stated in your post. Even in the worse of situations she's a good, kind soul. I know that scene might not go down well with a lot of people for obvious reasons but it was a hell of scene for me. SA crushed it as well with that quiet devastated look on his face.

I was spoiled for most of the crossover (lol practically all of it) but that punched me in the gut.

[DearEvette]

After all that, are Felicity and Oliver even legally married?  Marriage license anyone?

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, SevenStars said:

Really, this is how you interpet people's post who had a problem with when Felicity interrupted Iris/Barry????  That one scene??

Wow, no one is saying that Felicity was the villain of the crossover, not even close, at least not as far as I have read. All some people, including me, are saying is that we didn't like that Felicity interrupted when Diggle was about to make Iris/Barry official, after the kiss. That the writers could/should have made the transition to Olicity getting marry at the same time better. In that moment I thought Felicity was rude af, but never claimed she was a villain. 

@Trisha quotes part of Oliver Sava's review for the AV Club.  Save says

Quote

and the final scene of Crisis wraps up that plot line as Diggle marries Barry and Iris. But there’s one last twist! Felicity also wants to get married, like right now, and she and Oliver end up getting hitched in a surprise double wedding! As rude as it is for Felicity to hijack this big moment for Barry and Iris, it’s still a major step up from having your wedding interrupted by Nazis, and Crisis solidified the Felicity/Iris friendship so that this final double wedding is a joyous occasion for everyone involved. 

This is why I don't mind his take on that final scene. He acknowledges that what Felicity did was rude and then explains how the crossover has done the work to show the close friendship between the couples so that Iris and Barry would be happy rather than annoyed. There have been some folks here whose defense was that what Felicity did wasn't rude when they know they know they wouldn't have been ok with this if the event had reversed the couples. Furthermore, others have insisted that Felicity's actions are ok because it's a tv show and they didn't have the time let Felicity's interruption not be rude. That's some weak sauce that folks would never accept for any other plot point.

It was rude for Felicity to interrupt, but they did enough on establishing the friendship between both couples that you can reasonably see that Iris and Barry might not mind. I did think it could have been written slightly better to come off a little less rude. But, it's ok to write critically about Oliver and Felicity. I feel like some folks here miss that. Additionally if you're making a case that because someone is critical of Felicity or Oliver's actions they are practically accusing Oliver or Felicity of causing global warming, being worse than Nazis, or the cause of all strife, then you are making a pretty rhetorically weak argument unless said person actually accused Oliver or Felicity of said things. It's ok to be critical of the characters while still liking them. I really like Barry, but think he was a dope for letting Thawne go. 

[Miss Dee]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I cant be the only person why wished that, in the middle of the Goosestep A Palooza that was Earth X, the Music Miester would show up, and make all the Nazis start doing an elaborate dance routine, while singing Springtime for Hitler. Then they all blow up. 

Just give Legends six months. This will be a thing. And it could be Gumdrop....

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

The one thing I appreciated about the Legends crew was that they held their own - they added to the narrative and didn't hijack any narrative.  That's why out of all of the shows from the crossover (other than The Flash) I definitely want to give Legends a chance.  They really made that last hour great - without sucking up the narrative or hijacking it.

And Stein's death still has me emotional.  Poor Jax.

To all new viewers, these are the Top Ten Reasons why you should give Legends a(nother) chance:

1) The writers know how to write for an ensemble.

2) It's a more diverse crew, with two WoC who are written well.

3) No need for #feminism here - Legends lives and breathes it.

4) It really takes advantage of the fact this is a comic book universe; it's not shy to embrace that heritage.

5) All the characters can do comedy and drama. And the comedy, she is high with Legends.

6) If you like pop-culture references: not only is Cisco the spirit animal of the Waverider crew, Legends goes further than any of the other shows in its commitment to following that through. Like...you have NO idea how committed.

7) It's a show where each season seems poised to surpass the one before it. Even Season 1 is not bad if you watch it for the characters and not the plots, knowing the plotting gets better in Season 2.

8) There are no sacred cows among the characters. Each one screws up; each one has moments of heroism. I'd be really hard-pressed to pinpoint one that seems to be the writers' "favourite" - because honestly, the writers seem to love writing for them all.

9) There are no OTPs. There's some romance, of course, but it's all sort of chill. There are loads of other types of relationships, though, and they get you really invested as a viewer.

10) Mick Rory. You have no idea if all you've seen of him is in the crossovers or The Flash. The most consistent remark I've heard in all corners of the Internet is, "If you had told me after his first Flash appearance that Mick Rory would become a breakout character in the Arrowverse and I would become so emotionally invested in him, I'd have laughed in your face." His character arc is arguably one of the best across all four series. And if you are that rare bird for whom Mick does nothing for you, Legends has an ability to rehabilitate other characters that may have been disliked in the Arrowverse. Didn't really cotton to Ray, or Jax, or even Damian Dhark or Malcolm Merlyn on their respective shows? You need to watch them on this one.

In short: Get thee to a Netflix account and catch up fast! Legends deserves more love and better ratings.

4 hours ago, Wishing Well said:

So...yeah.  My loser Legends.

 

1. It's no surprise that the last episode made the best use of the 483957 people there, mixing and matching groups, making sure everyone got focus...this is where the LOT writers always shine.

 

2. ATTENTION PRISONERS.  GREAT NEWS!  THE CALVARY HAS ARRIVED!

 

3. I KNEW I COULD COUNT ON YOU PRETTY DID YOU BRING BEERS.  Poor Mick, having to go through this whole debacle without his Haircut friend or Pretty Pal.  Even Sara and Firestorm took off without him. He just missed his buddies. 

 

4. Kara warned Thawne that her cousin would come for her AND HE DID SUPERMAN HE CAME 

 

5. Whatever "girl power" or #feminism the Arrow and Flash writers were attempting got stomped to the trash the second Amaya and Zari showed up.  Queens.

 

and as a viewer of all four shows, but first and foremost an LOT fan, I thought it fitting that Flash ended VERY grim, and they had literally no hope until the Legends stormed their way into Star Labs.  That's when everything turned and the heroes started winning again.  My baes.

Word to this entire post.

[ladylaw99]

What a crossover.  I am surprised I liked it as much as I did.  

I don't watch Supergirl or the Flash and I just started watching the Legends of Tomorrow.  I don't know how I am going to be able to watch it now knowing what happens to Stein and Jax.  My heart broke. 

There was so much I loved about this crossover: Olicity, Sara, Snart being back (I love Wentworth), Felicity and Iris, list can go on.  I hated the Nazis story which they really could have done without and still manage to get the same result.

Obviously there were things that could have been better but I am choosing to look at what I liked.  I love Felicity and understand where people are coming from regarding her timing at the wedding but to be honest after everything these couples went through  in this crossover who really cares.  If I was to get mad at everything these characters did I would not be watching the show.  They are married!!!!  It's time to celebrate!!!!

My husband (who does not watch any of these shows) is now going to watch Legends of Tomorrow with me so, for me personally this is a huge win!!!

[Miss Dee]

A caution to those beginning to watch Legends for the first time: in Season 1, the main plot drags. Know that going in. They started something that they had to see through to the finale, and it was a misstep.

The season still is worth watching for a) the character arcs, and b) the single-shot episodes, which pretty much saved that season. Slog through it, because you don't want to miss the character beats, and know your real treat is gonna start with Season 2.

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Who's FeFe? I never heard anyone called that on any of the shows?

Even though my Legends got shafted again on their own show for couples on two other shows. I'm glad they got to be the rescue team. They might screw up time but they are fully formed team that knows how to work together and be awesome.

Once again, the Legends were the best written of four shows.  Whereas the others only really got plots for their main characters in (Kara and Alex, Oliver and Felicity, Barry and Iris), LOT got Sara's flirtation with Alex and a heart-breaking Stein/Jax arc plus Ray and Nate doing major saves and Mick stealing the show.  Also wonderful use of Leo in a whole new variation.

I wouldn't mind having The Ray back after he helps clean up Earth X.

The big Superhero walk is still ridiculous but this crossover did a much better variation of the final big fight than last year's did.  It also helped to move back and forth rather than just people in costumes fighting CGI because I get super bored with that fast.

I think it was appropriate for the Waverider to leave before ending the crossover with a happy moment in the weddings.  It wouldn't have felt right to do it in front of Stein's grieving friends.  (Speaking of bad etiquette, not too appropriate to talk to your group about getting married as you're walking away from burying a good friend.)

In terms of the joint wedding:  if it weren't for Barry, Oliver and Felicity would have been married 20 months ago.  If it weren't for Barry, Diggle would have a daughter.  In this episode alone, Barry kidnapped Diggle (isn't that what you call it when you take someone without their permission?) and let Thawne escape.  Felicity is not even close to balancing the havoc Barry had made of their lives, assuming that Barry and Iris didn't want a double wedding which I didn't see.

FeFe is what people call Felicity when they want to be insulting.   I don't think much of Barry myself but I respect his fans enough not to call him by the name of a French poodle.

10 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

A caution to those beginning to watch Legends for the first time: in Season 1, the main plot drags. Know that going in. They started something that they had to see through to the finale, and it was a misstep.

The season still is worth watching for a) the character arcs, and b) the single-shot episodes, which pretty much saved that season. Slog through it, because you don't want to miss the character beats, and know your real treat is gonna start with Season 2.

I'd almost say skip the first season and then go back to it when you're hooked on the show.  Otherwise you might give up before you get to the really fun stuff.  The main plot was not only bad, the acting was terrible for those characters.

[Mellowyellow]

34 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

It was rude for Felicity to interrupt, but they did enough on establishing the friendship between both couples that you can reasonably see that Iris and Barry might not mind. I did think it could have been written slightly better to come off a little less rude. But, it's ok to write critically about Oliver and Felicity. I feel like some folks here miss that. Additionally if you're making a case that because someone is critical of Felicity or Oliver's actions they are practically accusing Oliver or Felicity of causing global warming, being worse than Nazis, or the cause of all strife, then you are making a pretty rhetorically weak argument unless said person actually accused Oliver or Felicity of said things. It's ok to be critical of the characters while still liking them. I really like Barry, but think he was a dope for letting Thawne go. 

In relation to critiquing characters, there ARE people who have accused Felicity of being a mass murderer (yes an actual mass murderer) and abusing Oliver, along with various other crimes that are too long to list so it does get to a point where the general ill will towards a character takes over (for whatever reason) rather than fair criticism.

I am obviously not talking about this board (since I haven't read all the posts) but it's out there.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[SevenStars]

7 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

In relation to critiquing characters, there ARE people who have accused Felicity of being a mass murderer (yes an actual mass murderer) and abusing Oliver, along with various other crimes that are too long to list so it does get to a point where the general ill will towards a character takes over (for whatever reason) rather than fair criticism.

I get that because as someone who never been in the Arrow fandom or read anything about Felicity, I was surprise to see a post on Tumblr in the Flash tag about her on Monday night and that long ass post basically blames her for breathing causing Oliver not to have enough air to breath and  causing everything wrong in the Arrow world. I couldn't even finish reading that post cause it was so ridiculous. So I get it. 

 

But that doesn't take away my and others fair criticism of Felicity for the timing of her interruption and seeing it as rude af. Her interruption is nowhere near the worst thing that happened to Iris and Barry but it's still rude af and wasn't necessary. 

[statsgirl]

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

Well Diggle has been the literal black sidekick to Ollie this whole time.  When Barry routinely treats Dig that way throughout a series of episodes, then I think we can go there.  Using Dig as an example of the black sidekick and the main NOT be Ollie but Barry for one thing Barry did is very thin.  It's also missing the point.

Not only the writers but the actors have been very clear that they view Diggle as the Yoda to Oliver, not his sidekick.  David Ramsey has said numerous times in interviews and at cons that Diggle is the one experienced and who is five years ahead of where Oliver is.

It's even in the script -- when Diggle signs on to Oliver crusade in season one, he says he's doing it because it takes out pieces of your sould and he wants to help Oliver through that emotional stuff.

When Oliver mistreats Diggle, as he has done a few times during the six seasons of the show, he apologizes.  Take a look at the last Arrow episode, Thanksgiving, if you want to see two equals negotiating their relationship.

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Isn't it getting the marriage license and signing it what makes them legally married?

It was when I got married.  The vows are just for show.  So either Iris and Barry already signed the license, which would make them already married, or neither of them are legally married.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Personally, I found it interesting when Joe turned what was supposed to be a toast about his children getting married into a story about himself and his journey to find love again. 

Barry (paraphrasing Jessica Rabbit):  It's not my fault, I was raised that way.

6 hours ago, Trini said:

That's not what happened, and even if it did, Barry is responsible for Oliver's dishonesty now?? Not touching that

Barry told Oliver that Felicity broke up with him when he told her the truth. (Felicity actually got mad at Oliver because he lied to her.)  So Oliver lied to her and that's what broke them up.  So yeah, if Barry hadn't given Oliver misinformation he probably would have told Felicity the truth and she would have known about William before he got kidnapped.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

There is no debate that Iris gets treated like crap frequently on The Flash.  But so does Caitlin.  I just disagree with the reason why it's so hard to get her POV on the show.  I'm pretty convinced it's because all the women on the show are used as props for the guys.  I'm REALLY hoping for changes behind the scenes and really hoping those changes might mean better chances for focus on Iris and her PoV.  Felicity often suffers from this as well, not as much as Iris and Caitlin let alone poor Jesse, but yeah, it's a problem.  Which is why I was THRILLED she got any PoV in the crossover because without it, it would have been a lot harder to understand why she was afraid of marriage and changing the status of their relationship.  Iris on the other hand, didn't need to express a POV about Nazis interrupting her wedding beyond her "Are you kidding me!" when it happened.  Still, they did give her and Barry a moment to be together and regret the complication but at the same time, show that it wasn't going to bring them that down. 

No one on the show is judging her or holding a grudge and everyone on the show has made far bigger fools of themselves and committed far more callous faux pas.  Its impossible for me to work myself up to outrage on their behalfs when they wouldn't IMO share even a speck of the same feeling.    

Yes.

We need an interview with Iris and Barry to settle this wedding issue.  Maybe they were happy to share their ceremony.

Edited November 29, 2017 by statsgirl

[Trisha]

57 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I did think it could have been written slightly better to come off a little less rude. But, it's ok to write critically about Oliver and Felicity. I feel like some folks here miss that.

Speaking as a Felicity lover I think it's easy to get wary of criticism because she gets so crapped on unnecessarily and harshly by so much of the Arrow fandom. Yes, it was rude but I'm also kind of bummed that we waited 6 years for this couple to get together and they had to share the spotlight with Iris/Barry, so it all evens out for me.

Also, I agree with your point that the writing (or actually the editing) could have been better. In the paparazzi video that came out a couple of weeks ago showing this scene being filmed, there was clearly a moment when Oliver and Felicity stopped talking and turned to Iris and Barry to ask if this was ok (around the 3:50 mark). I really, really wish they had kept that in. It would have saved all of this bellyaching and we'd all just be able to bask in the wedding joy.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Trisha

[SevenStars]

17 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

In terms of the joint wedding:  if it weren't for Barry, Oliver and Felicity would have been married 20 months ago.  If it weren't for Barry, Diggle would have a daughter.  In this episode alone, Barry kidnapped Diggle (isn't that what you call it when you take someone without their permission?) and let Thawne escape.  Felicity is not even close to balancing the havoc Barry had made of their lives, assuming that Barry and Iris didn't want a double wedding which I didn't see.

FeFe is what people call Felicity when they want to be insulting.   I don't think much of Barry myself but I respect his fans enough not to call him by the name of a French 

 

The Flash fandom, including me as Barry fan first, and Westallen fans have ROASTED Barry for all the crap he does as a result of his selfish and self center behavior.  I understood why he did it but it didn't make it right. It didn't mean he wasn't being a selfish asshole for causing these things.  I call Barry out on all his shits despite still loving him.

I don't love him any less but I won't defend his actions in those situations cause while I understand his motivation, he was still wrong af and even last night some in the Westallen fandom were not letting him leave it down. They were making fun at how long before Barry make a selfish decision that would undo Westallen marriage, especially since his stupid ass allow RF to walk away.  Like my brother said at the time, he deserves whatever RF does to him the future for that stupid af decision.

With all that said, Felicity was still rude af in that moment, despite Barry's many selfish and stupid decisions in past and with RF.

As for the name thing, I personally never been comfortable using a name created out of hatred for any character, even characters I don't particular care.

[statsgirl]

To me there is a difference between being rude and being selfish.  I work with people who have ADHD, and they/we can often be socially inappropriate, partly because we have difficulty reading social cues and partly because there's a lack of trust in our short term memory so if you don't say it now, you'll forget it by the time the socially acceptable moment comes around.  There is no harm intended.

One of the EPs said that the crossover is about relationships and learning about love.  Jax learned about his love for Stein as the father he never had and being a part of his family; Alex learned that she can move on from her relationship with Maggie.  Oliver and Felicity closed their 4 season journey to be able to admit their feelings for each other and not be afraid of conflicting demands or commitment or the ceremony involved. And Barry and Iris finally got married for the right reasons rather than trying to save her.  Even NaziOliver had feelings for Overgirl.

If the next Flash episode opens with Iris and Barry complaining about how rude Felicity and Oliver were to horn in on their wedding, I'll accept that Felicity did wrong. Until then, I'll take my cues from the show and Barry and Iris' happy faces.

[Sakura12]

I think I love that Leo Snart wants to be everyone's boyfriend. Flirting with Sara, hugging Barry, trying to help Mick be good. 

I'm going to think Leo is Pansexual like Wentworth wanted Snart to be. 

[SevenStars]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

If the next Flash episode opens with Iris and Barry complaining about how rude Felicity and Oliver were to horn in on their wedding, I'll accept that Felicity did wrong. Until then, I'll take my cues from the show and Barry and Iris' happy faces.

I guess that's the difference for me. I don't take my cues from the characters, because if I did, I wouldn't be calling Barry on his bullshit. Because everytime he does something that is wrong, the characters seems either not bothered by it or quickly forgive. Like,  neither Iris or Joe are ever really mad at Barry for anything. Barry's actions caused the death of Cisco's brother and he was quick to forgive him for that, I didn't. Like Iris and Barry are desperate to get marry but I wanted their asses to wait until they can at least have Wally, Joe and Cisco to celebrate with. So while they were happy to get marry the way they did, I wasn't. So there asses can stay being happy about the situation and I will still feel the opposite way. Honestly, I don't even want the writers to show them disliking the situation the way I do.

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, WindofChange said:

Because they want to bring him back later in the season I'm guessing? Which... IDK why the Flash would want to bring back a Nazi to a show that's supposed to be lighter

Eobard was not from Earth-X; he wasn't a Nazi. This is the same Eobard with Wells's face from Season one Flash.

[Princess Lucky]

Yeahhhh.... I'm just going to talk about the Legends (the only show I regularly watch and care about).

Not enough Legends, not even in the fourth hour, but I liked that Mick was the one Legend who participated in most of the proceedings (other than Sara and Firestorm, of course) and his little connection with Caitlin was surprisingly fun. I just wish we had gotten more of Amaya and Zari, too. That little team-up between them and Killer Frost was amazing though, and I'm really happy the Legends all popped up in the end (especially Ray and Nate) like the badass rescuers, as opposed to the screw-ups.

Victor Garber is a gem, and an incredible actor, and his death scene had me sobbing. He will be missed. But he's also better than this, heh. That said, he did get to have a lot of fun as a performer (to our viewing pleasure) so I'd like to think it was worth it. We (and the CW) were lucky to have him for this long. I really wanted Stein to live and go back to his family, but that would have made his exit a lot less heroic (or should I say "legendary"), so I guess I'm fine with it (she said through her tears).

I'm just glad the show gave us reactions from Jax, Clarissa and Lilly, but also Ray. Ray was always close to "Marty" and I'm glad the writers didn't forget that. Same for Caitlin, actually. So that was good.

Also good? Leo! He was so hilarious and, dare I say, cute? And he's sticking around? Yes please. I loved him with The Ray (and I'm not the biggest fan of Russell Tovey, but even I have to admit I liked him in this). I'm always up for more Wentworth Miller.

One last thing: this entire crossover felt like a concentrated effort to stomp all over the very notion of a Bechdel test. That's why Legends is the only thing I watch. Keep the boyfriend drama out of my shows please.

[Proteus]

24 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I think I love that Leo Snart wants to be everyone's boyfriend. Flirting with Sara, hugging Barry, trying to help Mick be good. 

I'm going to think Leo is Pansexual like Wentworth wanted Snart to be. 

The Sara/Snart fan in me loved that he flirted with her. I think Leo will be fun.

[SmallScreenDiva]

5 hours ago, Grace19 said:

I'm surprised that olicity fans here can't even admit that the timing was wrong. I can still love a character and still admit when they are wrong, I love Barry, but I still roast him more than anyone on team flash.

In this case, I really can't see Felicity doing anything wrong because their whole arc throughout the crossover was leading up to it. The writers set them up to do it at the very last second, and yes, with Iris & Barry, who were perfectly happy to share their unplanned wedding day with two of their closest friends — friends they'd been encouraging to take the plunge since the beginning. In that way, the writers also set up the payoff for Iris & Barry's crossover arc — which apparently was just to get married — to include Oliver & Felicity. Did I want this to happen this way? God no, but I thought there was enough of a setup there for what eventually did happen.

But folks will always find something wrong and blame "Fefe" for everything so, you know what, I don't care. My ship got married after six years and that's six years of us being told we would never get here "Because Comics." So I'm just gonna celebrate!

Edited November 29, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva
grammar correction

[DavidJSnyder]

5 minutes ago, Princess Lucky said:

I'm just glad the show gave us reactions from Jax, Clarissa and Lilly, but also Ray. Ray was always close to "Marty" and I'm glad the writers didn't forget that.

Brandon Routh did a really good job of just silently being sad.

There were clunkers in here they didn't work for me.  Flash just letting Thawne going rather than trying to lock him up.  Why is Cold chiding Heatwave for shooting Nazis without due process?  Also, Earth X is still presumably ruled by Nazis, but they kind of treat Ray going home (and Cold staying) as casually a trip back to Earth 2 or 3..  Even with evil Arrow and Supergirl gone, there's still a bunch of Nazis over there, right? So The Ray could probably use some help now. 

But overall, I thought the whole think was a lot of fun and felt epic enough to live up to it's own hype.

[Writing Wrongs]

13 hours ago, benteen said:

Way to go letting Thawne get away scot free to kill again, Barry.  What a hero...

One thing I'll say about Oliver, he will kill a fucker.

[Writing Wrongs]

If there are 53 Earths with versions of each character, why isn't their a Supergirl on Earth 1? Barry had never heard of her when they first met and then Nate refers to himself as The Man of Steel, so presumably he's never heard of Superman either.

Was that robot supposed to be Metallo?

[Wishing Well]

The marvelous moment when Nate showed up and instead of wanting to punch him like usual I sobbed that he and the rest were here to save the day.

 

also um Team Legends B managed to save everyone in six minutes and take down RF and Dark Arrow while Team Arrow B just got their asses handed to them.  Mick was in that group too but the poor guy had a bit to drink ok.

[Sakura12]

Just because there is a version on each Earth doesn't mean she lived on Earth. Maybe in Earth 1, Krypton never blew up or she died when it did or any number of reasons Earth 1 doesn't have Superman or Supergirl. Sara and Mick are dead on Earth X. So they existed at one point and now they don't. 

1 minute ago, Wishing Well said:

The marvelous moment when Nate showed up and instead of wanting to punch him like usual I sobbed that he and the rest were here to save the day.

 

also um Team Legends B managed to save everyone in six minutes and take down RF and Dark Arrow while Team Arrow B just got their asses handed to them.  Mick was in that group too but the poor guy had a bit to drink ok.

That's because Team Legends functions as a real team, where everyone contributes something (even Nate, some of the time) and the work together well. 

[tennisgurl]

I liked the double wedding just fine, and I understand why the characters wanted to be married right now (with their luck, an army of super intelligent murderous chinchillas will invade any second so why not be happy now), but I do get why some fans are unhappy. I love WestAllan and Olicity, so I am just happy that they're clearly happy, but I do admit to wanting more of a big show of it. We already got the big Iris/Barry wedding with romance and speeches and such, but we didn't get much for Olicity. And, yeah, both couples deserve it to be all about them, after everything they've been through. So, while I am fine with this, I can see why its annoying to other people. 

[phoenics]

15 minutes ago, Wishing Well said:

The marvelous moment when Nate showed up and instead of wanting to punch him like usual I sobbed that he and the rest were here to save the day.

 

also um Team Legends B managed to save everyone in six minutes and take down RF and Dark Arrow while Team Arrow B just got their asses handed to them.  Mick was in that group too but the poor guy had a bit to drink ok.

Honestly the Legends characters were one of the huge highlights for me.  It comes on now after the flash - and I've been sneaking in watches here and there, but I think it deserves more loyal viewership from me.

[DeadZeus]

Wait... Oliver didn't do anything during the final fight... He got 0 screentime and there are tiny scenes of him fighting on the SUV, but it never concludes... pretty strange.

[phoenics]

2 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

Wait... Oliver didn't do anything during the final fight... He got 0 screentime and there are tiny scenes of him fighting on the SUV, but it never concludes... pretty strange.

Um - he killed the evil Oliver?  I actually thought that was pretty cool, even if evil Oliver screamed like a punk when OverGirl died.  I actually rewound that several times just to hear that high pitched scream, lol.

Edited November 29, 2017 by phoenics

[DeadZeus]

5 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Um - he killed the evil Oliver?  I actually thought that was pretty cool, even if evil Oliver screamed like a punk when OverGirl died.  I actually rewound that several times just to hear that high pitched scream, lol.

Weird... Might have to go rewatch. Still, would have like a bigger and better fight. And take out some small fry in the process.

[scarynikki12]

It doesn't matter if you loved the crossover or hated it.  It doesn't matter if you loved some parts and hated others.  It doesn't matter if you love the resolution, hate it, or feel conflicted.  What DOES matter is how your treat each other.  Several posts have been hidden because of escalating arguments and rudeness towards fellow posters.  If you can't respond to another poster without being rude, then don't.  Post your thoughts and move on.  There is nothing to win here so stop trying. 

[Sakura12]

I loved seeing Oliver kill Nazi Oliver. That's how you end your villain so he doesn't come back. We'll just see who else RF kills later on and it will all be Barry's fault. At least capture him and lock him up. Sara seems to have line to Black Flash, he could take care of him. 

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, DavidJSnyder said:

There were clunkers in here they didn't work for me.  Flash just letting Thawne going rather than trying to lock him up.  Why is Cold chiding Heatwave for shooting Nazis without due process?

This was the major disrupting issue for me in how much I overall liked the finale. Barry letting Thawne go makes no sense on any level. He has been the single most destructive force in Barry's life. Not killing him I get, but leaving him free to murder more people and cause more disruptions to the timeline and to any other dimensions he likes is ludicrous.

As for Leo's comment about rule of law and due process, unless he was just supposed to be joking (I couldn't tell) it was a really out of left field comment. How would a guy born and raised on Nazi Earth even know anything about that?

Edited November 29, 2017 by KirkB

[tennisgurl]

I am just really happy the Legends crew got a Big Damn Heroes moment here, I felt they were kind of underused throughout the whole crossover. I mean, not as much as the Supergirl supporting cast (except for Alex), but I was hoping to see more of them, partially because they're my favorite team, and partially because they need viewers and having the characters show up more in the other shows could make more people check the show out. But, I am still happy we got a solid win for the gang, taking out the Nazis and saving everyone in about 4 minutes. I REALLY hope they take some time to rub it in the Time Bureau`s face next time they show up to tell them how much they suck. 

"Oh, we are SO SORRY we forgot to press our stupid matching suites this week guys, we were kind of busy defeating an army of interdimentional world conquering Nazis, no big deal or anything". 

[DearEvette]

8 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Um - he killed the evil Oliver?  I actually thought that was pretty cool, even if evil Oliver screamed like a punk when OverGirl died.  I actually rewound that several times just to hear that high pitched scream, lol.

I thought that was hilarious too, especially since he spent the three previous episodes blathering on how the Earth-1 heroes were weak because of their sentimentality.  Meanwhile they are doing all this to save Evil Kara from dying.  Dude if you are so hardcore, you would've just put her on a boat, light it on fire and give her a hardy farewell.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, KirkB said:

This was the major disrupting issue for me in how much I overall liked the finale. Barry letting Thawne go makes no sense on any level. He has been the single most destructive force in Barry's life. Not killing him I get, but leaving him free to murder more people and cause more disruptions to the timeline and to any other dimensions he likes is ludicrous.

As for Leo's comment about rule of law and due process, unless he was just supposed to be joking (I couldn't tell) it was a really out of left field comment. How would a guy born and raised on Nazi Earth even know anything about that?

The concepts of rule of law and due process existed pre-1940s in America, and presumably existed for a while in other countries even after the Nazis won the war. 

But overall, it doesn't make sense as obviously he and the Freedom Fighters were not rounding Nazis up and holding tribunals for them when he, the Ray, Red Tornado and General Schott froze, blasted, hurricaned and otherwise blew them up.

[statsgirl]

@quarks, I think I love you.

12 minutes ago, KirkB said:

As for Leo's comment about rule of law and due process, unless he was just supposed to be joking (I couldn't tell) it was a really out of left field comment. How would a guy born and raised on Nazi Earth even know anything about that?

The Ray told him?

Cisco should have given The Ray one of those interdimensional portals.

11 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I am just really happy the Legends crew got a Big Damn Heroes moment here, I felt they were kind of underused throughout the whole crossover. I mean, not as much as the Supergirl supporting cast (except for Alex), but I was hoping to see more of them, partially because they're my favorite team, and partially because they need viewers and having the characters show up more in the other shows could make more people check the show out.

We'll see next week but I think if any of the shows got a boosts from the crossover it will be LoT.  They were intriguing, they fought well, Stein's death rocked the world and Mick was hilarious.  I'm rooting for a Sara/Alex crossover.

23 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

Wait... Oliver didn't do anything during the final fight... He got 0 screentime and there are tiny scenes of him fighting on the SUV, but it never concludes... pretty strange.

In addition to the Big Superhero Fight, Kara, Flash and Oliver each fought their dopplegangers.  Kara's turned into a supernova (I don't get how but whatever), Barry let his go and Oliver nailed a green tipped arrow right into NaziOliver's chest.  Oliver cut off the head of the Evil Invasion.

Speaking of which, I really don't understand how s1 ReverseFlash was around.  He died when Eddie killed himself to prevent him from existing and then he was a time remnant for the next couple of seasons played by Matt Letscher.  How did Wells/Thawne even exist?

[kdm07]

10 hours ago, quarks said:

9. That said, although Team Legends got off some awesome moments here and got to pause for a character death, they do seem to have a tendency to get isolated in their episodes of these crossovers, don't they? I mean, this is the second year in a row where the Legends crossover episode ends with an Oliver/Barry thing. Happens when you're the last part of the crossover, but still.

*sits in a corner, quietly muttering in agreement with the above while others argue about Barry/Iris & Oliver/Felicity*

Yeahhhh.... I'm just going to talk about the Legends (the only show I regularly watch and care about).

Not enough Legends, not even in the fourth hour, but I liked that Mick was the one Legend who participated in most of the proceedings (other than Sara and Firestorm, of course) and his little connection with Caitlin was surprisingly fun. I just wish we had gotten more of Amaya and Zari, too. That little team-up between them and Killer Frost was amazing though, and I'm really happy the Legends all popped up in the end (especially Ray and Nate) like the badass rescuers, as opposed to the screw-ups.

Victor Garber is a gem, and an incredible actor, and his death scene had me sobbing. He will be missed. But he's also better than this, heh. That said, he did get to have a lot of fun as a performer (to our viewing pleasure) so I'd like to think it was worth it. We (and the CW) were lucky to have him for this long. I really wanted Stein to live and go back to his family, but that would have made his exit a lot less heroic (or should I say "legendary"), so I guess I'm fine with it (she said through her tears).

I'm just glad the show gave us reactions from Jax, Clarissa and Lilly, but also Ray. Ray was always close to "Marty" and I'm glad the writers didn't forget that. Same for Caitlin, actually. So that was good.

Also good? Leo! He was so hilarious and, dare I say, cute? And he's sticking around? Yes please. I loved him with The Ray (and I'm not the biggest fan of Russell Tovey, but even I have to admit I liked him in this). I'm always up for more Wentworth Miller.

One last thing: this entire crossover felt like a concentrated effort to stomp all over the very notion of a Bechdel test. That's why Legends is the only thing I watch. Keep the boyfriend drama out of my shows please.

This. A thousand times all of this but especially the bolded.

Edited November 29, 2017 by kdm07

[johntfs]

13 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

At least capture him and lock him up. Sara seems to have line to Black Flash, he could take care of him. 

I don't think "lock him up" will work on Reverse Flash at this point.  Barry vibed out of the pipeline cell in the first episode of this season.  RF is (almost) as fast as Barry is so could probably do the same thing.  Also, Black Flash got killed/destroyed in last season's finale on The Flash.  Really, the only sure way that Barry has of permanently stopping Thawne is to kill him and Barry just isn't there yet.

[Chicago Redshirt]

29 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Speaking of which, I really don't understand how s1 ReverseFlash was around.  He died when Eddie killed himself to prevent him from existing and then he was a time remnant for the next couple of seasons played by Matt Letscher.  How did Wells/Thawne even exist?

I could buy time remnant, I can buy his going to Earth X before his demise, I can buy a fair amount of things.

But what I don't get is why he hooked up with the Nazis in the first place. Or stayed hooked up.

Thawne (presumably) is not a particular believer in the philosophy of the Nazis. What does he have to gain from allying with them, other than getting to bring snark to broody Oliver? They should have just had Grant play another Evil Flash. 

It has been a while since Barry has made as patently stupid a decision as to let RF go, btw.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Chicago Redshirt

[Winston Wolfe]

10 hours ago, WindofChange said:

10 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Barry and Iris didn't get marry during the funeral.

They got married on the same day of a funeral for man who sacrificed himself so that they could live. Instead of honoring him they wanted to make it about themselves that day. I don't see anyone really criticizing them for that if they are really worried about optics and what's considered 'rude'? 

Here's a different take that no one's offered so far: maybe Oliver/Felicity and Barry/Iris wanted to honor Stein by doing something life-affirming, like getting married.  Since the scene didn't effect me as much as some others here, mine is a kind of detached perspective...

[CabotCove]

Amazing crossover event, not even Felicity could ruin it, there was just so much good.

Stein/Jax were heart-wrenching?, very poignant. WestAllen being the golden couple they are and finally tying the note.

Ray [Palmer]. was his usual amazing self. The other Ray was good likeable too. Kudos to writers for a  strong female presence and female team ups in this crossover event.

 

Quote

Wasn't a fan of Oliver and Felicity getting married at that moment.  It's not your wedding, don't interrupt one to have yours.  What's up with that?

what do you expect from two narcissistic and selfish characters, they  deserve each other for those reasons. They need to cut down on these two, if they still want people watching these crossovers next year and after. Their presence is a total drag for this good event. The 2 actors are so weak in their craft too. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by HeroLeague

[DavidJSnyder]

29 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I don't think "lock him up" will work on Reverse Flash at this point.  Barry vibed out of the pipeline cell in the first episode of this season.  RF is (almost) as fast as Barry is so could probably do the same thing.  Also, Black Flash got killed/destroyed in last season's finale on The Flash.  Really, the only sure way that Barry has of permanently stopping Thawne is to kill him and Barry just isn't there yet.

They have power inhibiting cuffs and such that work on Barry and so would presumably on Thawne.  (We even saw the Nazi version of those in the previous crossover episode.)  Sure, he's going to escape eventually because superheroes, but you at least try.

[statsgirl]

41 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Here's a different take that no one's offered so far: maybe Oliver/Felicity and Barry/Iris wanted to honor Stein by doing something life-affirming, like getting married.  Since the scene didn't effect me as much as some others here, mine is a kind of detached perspective...

Maybe.  Or maybe Barry and Iris finally got to the point that they wanted to marry just so that they can be married to each other; not to save the other person or to prove anything or justify what they are doing.  That seemed to be the point that both couples reached by the end of the crossover -- that the relationship was what mattered not the trappings of a wedding.  Both Oliver/Felicity and Barry/Iris had already had that and it was hollow -- in the first case it was false and in the second it was first in desperate and the second time interrupted by Nazis.

The wedding ceremony, like rank, "is but the guinea's stamp, The [relationship]'s the gowd for a' that."  Iris said that they wanted to forgo the trappings of guests and dress up next time and just say their vows and have it made legal.  They said their vows and an officiate made it legal (I hope).  This was just a blink in time, it's the next 50 years that count.

Edited November 29, 2017 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

Just now, DavidJSnyder said:

They have power inhibiting cuffs and such that work on Barry and so would presumably on Thawne.  (We even saw the Nazi version of those in the previous crossover episode.)  Sure, he's going to escape eventually because superheroes, but you at least try.

I'd be okay if Barry at least tried to keep Thawne locked up even if he does eventually escape over Barry's "Bye, Thanwe. See you next time you kill more people because I'm just letting you go." 

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

After all that, are Felicity and Oliver even legally married?  Marriage license anyone?

I think they can get the marriage license after the fact. The only worry is if none of the four bother to make sure they have marriage licenses which seems unlikely with Iris having mentioned it already. 

The only way that doesn't happen is if shenanigans impede them getting to the facility that issues the licenses.

10 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'd be okay if Barry at least tried to keep Thawne locked up even if he does eventually escape over Barry's "Bye, Thanwe. See you next time you kill more people because I'm just letting you go." 

That is what was mystifying to me. Like why would he just let him walk other than weapons grade PLOTONIUM?

Edited November 29, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DeadZeus said:

Weird... Might have to go rewatch. Still, would have like a bigger and better fight. And take out some small fry in the process.

The fought on top of a car and it was odd to me that so little time was spent on that fight TBH. I mean it was Evil Fuhrer Oliver vs Good!Oliver and it was on screen for a blip and partially at a distance other than Oliver shooting him with his arrow. I mean I cheered and victory armed but it was a rather anti-climactic showdown that had been built up over 4 episodes never mind all of the stuff in Arrow itself with Oliver and Prometheus and Oliver fighting his "dark side" in turns.  I was rather letdown by the fight myself.  Maybe the real showdown was in the lab with both of them using the others' wife as leverage. (yes I consider Olicity married for a long time in now. Fight me :P).