S21.E10: Week 10/S21.E11: The Women Tell All

[waving feather]

9 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Big anti-slut-shaming speech from Liz. Okay. But now we have a speech from Taylor about how she was "help shamed"?!? Come on! People, we've officially taken this anti-shaming shaming too far! Why is it only okay to shame someone for shaming someone else? For shame, you anti-shaming shamer!

Lol, don't you know... Everyone is a victim these days. ;-) Even the famewhores who go on TV in order to shill on Instagram later. Liz is sadly mistaken if she thought people judged her because she slept with Nick. At least I haven't seen it in the places I go to online. People judged her because she is obviously being shady with her reasons on coming onto the show. The reasons Nick questioned her about that she wasn't able to answer then. Now suddenly she is a victim of slut-shaming, what??

Edited March 7, 2017 by waving feather

[FamilyVan]

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Raven once again TMI with her sex life, though I did chuckle a bit in her post-coital glow musical montage walk through town.

I loved that scene - totally cheesy, but adorable.  It was so Partridge-family.  LOL,  Except about sex.  I like Raven.  

 

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I don't remember the dark lipstick Corinne cheerleader girl, but she was going for attention for this show. With all the trying to piggy back off all the Corinne focus and with that horrible lipstick

Her lipstick was horrible.  What a bad choice.  She is the one who sang a song to Nick in the out-credits one time and also the one who slapped him at the improv date.

 

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Why is it only okay to shame someone for shaming someone else? For shame, you anti-shaming shamer!

Haa ha ha OMG I am dying laughing at this.  But I was thinking the same thing when Jordan was like I'm being shamed for being a counselor - eye roll!  Like she was so altruistic about wanting to help poor Corrine and went into Counselor Mode unwillingly as if she were a superhero.  

[JudyObscure]

I can usually watch this show with a cold heart, telling myself that they all knew what kind of show this was,  but there's something about the F3 cut that always makes me sad.  Sleeping with someone and then being sent home the next day?  Even if Rachel is really just friends with Nick, there's something so  humiliating about it.  Well, anyway, I'm really looking forward to Rachel's season, she is so bright she sparkles.

Raven just makes me cringe.  Nothing about her seems special to me and I can't understand how she made it so far.

I have a feeling that what Vanessa calls "core values," and "traditional," other people call set-in-her-ways and uncompromising.  Like she has a core value of spending every Sunday with her family and never once  thought of spending it any other way, like with his family.  She might have a few other core values, like always living in Canada and going shoe shopping every Saturday afternoon.  Vanessa and Nick both seemed to think that recognizing  problems is the same thing as working them out. I can tell you right now, Nick, Vanessa ain't budging on anything. I know you want a "strong" woman to tell you what to do for the rest of your indecisive, mumbling life, and a lot of marriages have been successful with the woman as the lead, but never, ever getting your way can get old.

The "Corinne Tells All," show was so boring I had to go to bed once her third segment began.  Chris had already talked to her as she sat in the group, then talked to her forever on the couch, then was back to talking to her while she sat with the group again.  Admittedly Taylor is a moron who can't get it through her head that  the terms she learned in class were meant to help make diagnosis, not for labelling and name calling purposes.   But Taylor's idiocy doesn't make Corinne a great person.  Neither one is worthy of a "team."

Liz, please. The Oscars already wore me out on predictable speeches that guarantee applause and you're no movie star. I just said that women were powerful and good no matter how curvy they were or who they slept with and diversity rules and everyone deserves to be loved, and my dog gave me a standing ovation.  It's become too easy.

[Primetimer]

But which one? I'm sure none of us has ANY idea. And then the Women Tell All.

View the full article

[TheFinalRose]

Okay, guys, Danielle M's (I hope that's her name?) cut down to her navel white jumpsuit that was so obviously taped on to her chest but still gapped every time she moved? Terrible. 

Taylor, Taylor, Taylor. "A master's in mental health counseling from Johns Hopkins!!!! Did you hear that Nick??? A master's degree!!! Talk about intelligent.... I'm right here! Woo hoo Nick! Wait, why are you laughing with Corinne and looking into her eyes?? She's dumb! Why, why, .... er, I don't get it. Why aren't you making a beeline right to my superior brain? Why are you going for the dumb blonde who took off her top when I am here, all intelligent and able to analyze you and tell you what is right and true for the rest of your life? Corrine, get out of my way. You don't have a master's hence you do not surpass me."

Sigh. I imagine that is what went through Taylor's dumb head her entire stay on the show, which just shows some kind of break from reality or self aggrandizement that she should really see a mental health counselor about.

All I could imagine while watching Raven's happy dance was that it was very similar to Nick's little end training montage and that production probably filmed each of them doing quirky, Finland-y things the day after they got there when everyone had jet lag and downtime. Then they just played Raven's montage the morning after when she probably spent the real morning after day eating and sleeping in sweats without makeup.

Was this show more of a trainwreck of women speaking over each other for too long without Chris Harrison jumping in than usual? 

Who was Lacey and why did her dumb questions actually make it on air? She got an awful lot of screentime and I did not remember her at all. 

Nick and Vanessa are clearly into each other, but Vanessa wants what she wants and Nick does not seem like the guy who can fit into her life dream. If they end up together they will not make it to the altar. But they were cute together last night. 

[truthaboutluv]

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So is the consensus that Nick did "fiancé things" with all of the final 3?  Did anyone else snicker at the "Lapland Hotel" plaque above the fantasy suite door?

That's certainly what they wanted us to think. But even Reality Steve who seems to think Nick can't stand next to a woman without hooking up with her, doesn't think he and Raven slept together, just because the editors were clearly trying so hard to make it seem that way. I will just say that there is a lot and I mean a lot people can do sexually that would totally give Raven her big O without them ever having any penetration.

In fact, based on the statistics, most women don't get orgasms from penetration. It's the other stuff. So it's more than likely he did stuff with all of them but maybe didn't go all the way...or not. Sadly that is just one of the many creepy realities of this whole so called journey to find love. 

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I still wonder WTH her ex boyfriend did that had everyone in her family so spun out over their breakup, but unlike Raven she didn't tell all.  

Which I appreciate because like Nick himself said once, when he was criticizing Amanda for how she talked about her ex-husband on Ben's season, these people did not sign up for a reality show. So it's not fair to drag them into it where millions of people who know nothing about them are speculating and passing judgments on their character. That's not fair.

Also, maybe it's just me but I don't think there's any great mystery about Vanessa's previous relationship. Based on the very little she's shared, it just sounded like it was very serious to where she probably did start thinking about marriage and apparently he had gotten close to her family as well. And then it ended and when it did it hurt badly. Happens to the best of us. 

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Nick and Vanessa seem adamant about staying in their respective countries.

You gotta love editing. Vanessa did an interview with Glamour before the season started and said she would move because the interviewer rightly pointed out that she was coming on to compete for a man who lives in America. I don't think Vanessa is completely and absolutely against the idea of moving.

What I got from their conversation was that she was trying to understand if Nick would consider it. So in other words it's not that she won't but it is annoying if it's just expected that it has to be her and he won't even consider the same when again, what's holding Nick to wherever he is? As opposed to her who has a full life - job, family, etc. 

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but why was Taylor in the hot seat for as long as she was?

Because looks like a lot of the women in the house, besides Corinne, had issues with her?

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When Rachel and Nick were kissing after she read the fantasy suite card, ... they just pressed their lips together, waited, kind of changed their lip position and did it again.  No passion at all.  Agree with the poster who said they act more like friends than anything else.

I also noticed that when they were kissing in front of the fire in the little hut place, Nick kept his hands in his pocket the whole time. It was really weird and it couldn't possibly be because he was that cold since they were literally sitting in front of a fire. I've always said that with Nick and Rachel I often found what he was saying in his voice-over/ITM about them didn't match what I actually saw on the screen but I at least saw a connection. However, yeah the chemistry was clearly off at points last night to where even if they hadn't spoiled the season by announcing her as the lead, I wouldn't have been that surprised when she was eliminated. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[PhysNerd]

28 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

 

Spare me. And what's not to get - he just wasn't that into you. That's the thing I've always hated about the Tell All. A bunch of people all asking the lead the same damn question which in my opinion, the answer is obvious. You all knew what you were signing up for, unless Nick is secretly into polygamy, clearly he was only going to choose one. So what's so confusing and hard to get - what he felt with others was stronger than what he felt with you.

Exactly!  Nick simply had a stronger connection with other women. That's it.  There isn't a deeper meaning.  While Danielle L was easily in the top 5 in terms of looks, her intellect was severely lacking.  

Wow....Taylor was a hot mess.  I can't believe she's a mental health counselor. Johns Hopkins must be so embarrassed right now. I really think there should be a minimum age requirement to be a mental health counselor.  23 is just too young.  Taylor went directly into graduate school from undergrad, so she hasn't acquired any real world experience. She really needs to focus on growing up right now and worry about marriage later. She has no business counseling others when she can't even handle Corrine.  

[kira28]

I honestly don't believe Raven and Nick had sex. He was so torn about leading anyone on and he's never cheated on anyone before. I think it might be difficult  for him to sleep with three women in one week and feel good about it. I think the whole I've never had an orgasm thing.. And Nick is very good at what he does wink wink... Is just a producer set up that Raven agreed to because she gets to trash her ex and make Nick look like a great lover. The Montage of her skipping around in happy afterglow was silly. 

I loved Vanessa's date. I laughed so hard at them running back and forth from the freezing water. I think he is the most at home and comfortable with Vanessa. She challenges him and he likes that. I was very surprised he so enthusiastically told Rachel he was falling for her. If I hadn't known she was the Bachelorette I would have been shocked at her dismissal. With Rachel gone I have no doubt Nick ends up with Vanessa. They were talking like it was decided they will be together and are trying to work out the details of what to do after the show. 

[Palomar]

Can the show move on from Corrine now?  It was fun for awhile but there is no reason now to focus on her until she shows up on Bachelor in Paradise.  She is NOT going to take being irrelevant well.

[JudyObscure]

42 minutes ago, FamilyVan said:

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I don't remember the dark lipstick Corinne cheerleader girl, but she was going for attention for this show. With all the trying to piggy back off all the Corinne focus and with that horrible lipstick

Her lipstick was horrible.  What a bad choice.  She is the one who sang a song to Nick in the out-credits one time and also the one who slapped him at the improv date.

In the dictionary of phrases, there's a picture of Josephine after, "tries too hard."

[Jax7917]

Why would vanessa sign up for the show, knowing the lead is from a different country, if she won't budge on moving...

however, I am gonna say that she will end up compromising and moving to LA because well, anyone who goes on this show is looking to build a brand and be in the magazines. I find her to be pretty, but her personality is really off-putting. I'd honestly choose raven of the 2. Vanessa's voice and constant crying is very annoying

[Rainsong]

As usual and necessary, the length of these posts decreases with the amount of content in the final stages and there was precious little content last night.

ABC’s rush to beat the world over the head with raceraceraceracerace all the timetimetimetimetime meant that they were willing to sabotage the suspense of their own ratings cash cow by obviating the penultimate RC.

As I have avoided spoilers, I admit I was a bit surprised at Raven’s inclusion in the F2 ie I thought Rachel’s Bachelorette status was predicated on her finishing as runner-up.  But even without spoilers the outcome is glaringly obvious (?) despite the surfeit of tears and tantrums we are being disingenuously fed.

Raven has become a woman in full, as her smirk betrays.  Her achievement at the, er, hands of what effectively is a casual hook-up is apparently cause for a joyful romp through a frozen village where ‘rainbow sticks’ were deemed necessary to break up the visual monotony (houses in Iceland are painted vivid colors for the same reason).  The Big O Parade is entirely producer-driven, contrived and embarrassing but then that description could apply to The Bachelor/ette as a whole.

Rachel can be excused for her lack of ski experience but isn’t Nick from Wisconsin?  He never fails to fail, as CSN once sang.  Still, after tea, a Deep & Meaningful in the Finnish version of a teepee and a reindeer-pulled sleigh ride (complete with GoPro camera mounted on the front), Rachel awakes with a giddy, silly grin on her face similar to Raven.  Fair dues to Nick – nobody can understand a Goddamned word he says but his moving parts speak clearly enough.  One might think Rachel would consider her reputation and standing as an attorney before deciding to shack up on teevee but she was living in the moment, maaaan.  Back home, however, Judge Dad has probably smashed his gavel into splinters.

The sweat, the cold air and the icy water mean Vanessa’s Italianiate proboscis has lost its carefully-applied shading for much of her encounter with Nick but he’s so smitten he doesn’t know or care.  There are a few musket balls fired in an impromptu Border War as the American and Canadian sides express their national pride with neither relishing the thought of ex-pat life even to pursue a relationship.  She slipstreams the L word very skillfully into the conversation, it must be said.

The RC is a non-event except to note that Raven is shifting around uncomfortably as she soberly assesses her long odds vis-à-vis the competition.  I believe Vanessa has an unbroken string of RCs this season in which she avoids eye contact with her peers.  A cold one, she is.

Rachel is mildly upset but mostly philosophical.  Perhaps Nick’s ‘closing argument’ ended up convincing her she’d had a lucky escape.

 

The Women Tell All is a curious title given that ‘telling’ sounds mostly like ‘shouting’ (much to the visible annoyance of schoolmaster Harrison) and that they don’t tell ‘all,’ they simply relive events we’ve already seen, except in the case of people like Liz who wage a desperate campaign of revisionism.  Her embarrassing episode even occurred off-screen and before filming began.  She insists that her past is a non-issue as she continues to make it a very large issue for a quarter of an hour.  And why was she given a couch segment?

We can only conclude that after her brief stint on the show Liz got lost in the Self-Help/Personal Growth section of Barnes & Noble and read every book on the shelves…or at least all the cover blurbs.  Cue the cod-feminism:  ‘you deserve a man who will love you.’  Deserve?  From where does this entitlement mentality originate?  Isn’t the whole point of relationships and this show in particular to meet someone halfway at least, and to give as much as necessary when occasion demands?  It all descends into mawkish Dr Phil treacle as spotlight-hogging Liz bangs on about ‘women who have changed my life’ and the entire gaggle are compelled to give themselves a round of Amen Sister applause – for what, exactly, we’re not quite certain.  The Image Rehab Hallelujah Chorus are in full throat now – forget that Liz likes a drunken shag (don’t we all?), she builds wells for orphanages!  We already know she can dig herself a rather deep hole so who are we to argue?

Josephine has been rushed into the studio after her shift at Disney’s Haunted Mansion and is still in her work makeup and costume.

Danielle M has joined Danielle L in eliminating the front portion of her dress, although the contrast in cleavage couldn’t be greater.  Perhaps the audience warm-up act played a game of Let's Count Danielle M’s Ribs?

Inevitably, the two Heavyweights Of Hatred are brought forth.  Taylor still looks as if she’s chewing a wasp and moans about her career being affected as if she wasn’t a direct participant in her demise.  She was always more fraud than Freud anyway.

Corinne is playing her part to the hilt now and the clapping sea lions in the audience love it.  Throw them a fish.  Or some cheese pasta.  I reckon the ink is already dry on Cor’s Bachelor In Paradise contract.  Perhaps Daddy even negotiated a one-bedroom suite for his princess?  Get the bar ready, Jorge.  Your best and most demanding customer is en route.

Poor Kristina is asked to relate her tear-jerker story – again – because most Yanks are morbidly fascinated by her desperate life of privation.  Kristina dazzles in red.  The producers may have missed a trick by not casting her as Bachelorette.  It’s almost certain that this bit of Глазные конфеты (eye candy) will also be heading to BIP but it seems a shame since she’s almost certain to be pursued and caught by one or more of the usual dim bulbs recruited from the male side.  

What's that sound?  Oh, hang on…Liz is STILL TALKING!  This attention-seeker has somehow made the Kristina orphanage story about Liz!

Speaking of Still Talking, can nobody shut the gaping maw of Lacey?  What a foghorn she is.  One can puzzle all day over quiet, elegant Whitney’s status as a single lady but screeching Lacey has the blokes sprinting for the exits, I’ll wager.  Another camera time addict, she lies shamelessly about her final moments in Nick’s presence and trots out the smarmy ‘word of advice’ preamble.  Lacey, nobody wants to hear your words or your advice.  Wind your neck in.

If nothing else, TWTA is a handy case study for proving that leopards don’t change their spots.  The demure ones stay that way.  The busybodies do too.  And the contenders and no-hopers are usually obvious.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Rainsong

[Jax7917]

1 hour ago, RHJunkie said:

1 hour ago, RHJunkie said:

 

I feel uncomfortable for the Bachelor/Bachelorette when those eliminated ask why. The answer will always be diplomatic and given the structure of the show and having eliminations, it always comes down to prioritizing relationships to see who sticks around over others. It's such a waste of a question to ask.

 

Agreed. It is a very stupid question that always has the same answer. "In the end it was just about which relationships were stronger or have developed more". Do you really want him to admit on national TV that you are dumb as rocks? It just makes no sense. You go on the show, 24 people get eliminated and 1 stays. That's it. Stop asking that stupid question of why? Just leave it as he wasn't into you enough.

[fib]

54 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

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but why was Taylor in the hot seat for as long as she was?

Because looks like a lot of the women in the house, besides Corinne, had issues with her?

Because the show had a long storyline about her and her interaction with Corinne, and it was 'good tv'.  YMMV, but i hated almost every moment of the Corinne/Taylor nonsense.  It was like watching an interaction between a Rush Limbaugh type who knows really well how to get the best of their medium and someone trying to provide thoughtful opposing commentary. The expert (in this case Corinne) just jumps in in every thought break and Taylor kept just getting interrupted, disrupted and lost.  This just wasnt her medium.  

The other women in the house who didnt seem to like her were Josephine and Jasmine.   I think that speaks pretty well of Taylor.  Those two seemed pretty horrible.

And it was clear from her comments tonight that despite all evidence to the contrary,  Corinne totally misheard/misunderstood the emotional intelligence comment, giving Taylor even more credibility with me.  

Lastly, what was up with Corinne's hair?  There was more of it, it was shineless, and her face framing wisps looked terrible.  

Edited March 7, 2017 by fib
Spelling and one more thought

[Jax7917]

Yeah. Corinne's hair is terrible. Does the girl look in the mirror?

[MsPH]

I kind of love Vanessa, the "I want to chop him up and feed him to the reindeer" made me laugh out loud. Pretty sure reindeer are herbivores, but anyway. I also love watching her and Nick. They talk to each other like adults in an honest and straighforward manner. Both seem unfraid of saying what they really think, even when they know it's probably not something the other person wants to hear. That's pretty rare on this show, since there's an inherent power inbalance between the lead and the contestants. Most contestants are so in the bubble they'll say anything to win and choose to worry about the real stuff later. I'd much rather listen to Nick and Vanessa assessing their relationship potential and talking about their non-negotiables than another discussion about "opening up" and "never expecting to feel like this". I just space out whenever they start that Bachelor speak, which is why I missed at least half of what Raven and Rachel were saying on their dates. The discussion with Rachel seemed more like Nick coaching her on how to be the lead and how to surrender to the process. I don't think she was in on it, since she seemed genuinely heartbroken at the end, but I have feeling Nick knew what was in store for her. I suspect she would've been in the final two if they didn't want her as the Bachelorette.

Nick and Vanessa may both be hard-headed, but I don't think their prospects are as bleak as the show tried to make it seem. If you listened carefully, Nick was basically saying that he'll do everything he can to make his partner happy as long as it's reciprocated. That seemed to be the problem in his first long-term relationship with the girl with the overbearing (Indian?) family. He was doing all the bending while not getting the same in return. I think that shows that he does want to put his partner first, but is scared that he'll fall into the trap of it being a one-way street again. I actually think it's smart of him to not give in too much at this point, since Vanessa is pretty strong-willed and is not gonna take well to Nick going back on his word later. He's managing her expectations, and I guess you could say she's doing the same in return. That's a good thing in my book. If they do decide to commit, then I think time will fix these issues. The more someone means to you and the more you trust them, the more you want to compromise. That's my experience at least.

No words for the stupidity of that Raven montage. I'll be surprised if they actually had sex. It's more likely Nick gave her a vibrator and said he'll be back in the morning.

[Wouldofshouldof]

6 hours ago, jumper sage said:

If Nick cries one more time I swear I will find him and give him something to cry about.

Mom?  Is that you?!?

[hyacinth]

21 minutes ago, Rainsong said:

The sweat, the cold air and the icy water mean Vanessa’s Italianiate proboscis has lost its carefully-applied shading for much of her encounter with Nick but he’s so smitten he doesn’t know or care.

Quite brilliant writing, Rainsong!   

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We can only conclude that after her brief stint on the show Liz got lost in the Self-Help/Personal Growth section of Barnes & Noble and read every book on the shelves…or at least all the cover blurbs.  Cue the cod-feminism:  ‘you deserve a man who will love you.’  Deserve? 

Love this, too.  At this point, I enjoy reading the message boards more than watching the show!        

Edited March 7, 2017 by hyacinth
added another quote

[b2H]

11 hours ago, LakeGal said:

This is the most boring Women Tell All I have ever watched. 

I skipped it entirely, based on the recap I had read about it.   I was unhappy that they tied up two hours of the evening on this.  I switched over to Vanderpump, which I was already recording.  Dear hubby, who watches this with me, bailed entirely.  As I stated on another thread, we will never, ever hear about any of these women ever again.  Why waste my time?

Dear hubby wants to go to Lapland, though, based on what we saw.

10 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Someone nailed it- Wednesday Addams from the Addams Family if you are old enough to remember that show!  Either her or the mother.  It was a ding ding moment for me.  

We called her Morticia.  

9 hours ago, backformore said:

Do we all make T-shirts, wine labels, posters,, etc, every time we watch the show, with no expectation of TV cameras? 

Word on the street is, those were all handed out as the audience came into the WTA venue.  Producer plant, absolutely.

[RHJunkie]

30 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Why would vanessa sign up for the show, knowing the lead is from a different country, if she won't budge on moving...

however, I am gonna say that she will end up compromising and moving to LA because well, anyone who goes on this show is looking to build a brand and be in the magazines. I find her to be pretty, but her personality is really off-putting. I'd honestly choose raven of the 2. Vanessa's voice and constant crying is very annoying

I'm leaning toward the notion that it's mainly the edit that's making Vanessa come across as uncompromising about the matter. There could easily be missing context to that conversation. The context could have been that I won't compromise Sunday lunch with my family, therefore I'm not moving away from Montreal. Or in context, it could suggest that if I were to move away from Montreal, it's important for me to visit my family often and when we're there, Sunday lunch with the family is a must. During the intro to the season in the getting to know interviews, Vanessa did say she was willing to move for love (and truthfully, most of the women would fall into this category because most of them are not from or living in the same city as Nick is right now). Vanessa moved to Toronto some years back (don't know the exact timeline) and I doubt she still managed to make it to every Sunday lunch (considering that Toronto is like 6 hours away from Montreal one way).

I think there is room for compromise for her but I think she's testing the waters to see how invested Nick can be in a relationship and to see how invested he is in her. I doubt Vanessa is the first woman to do it on this show but rarely do they show contestants who challenge the Bachelor in a way that is helpful to the contestant in figuring out if the Bachelor is right for them and if they could make a relationship work outside of the show.

If he picks her, I'm assuming that she'll move as well but will visit home often.

[MsPH]

I was also confused by Liz suddenly turning her appearance into some feminist empowerment speech. Did I miss something, because I haven't seen her be slut-shamed anywhere? Unless it's happened in her hometown in the middle of nowhere. Pretty sure most people were fine with her having a one-night stand and leaving it at that. It's the not even trying to contact him for 9 months, even though her bestie had his number, and then going on TV to date him and having no proper answers to any of his questions that people were questioning, understandably so. I'm sure she has many great qualities, but the whole love fest was over the top.

Taylor and her amazing brain are the definition of immature, but I did feel a bit bad for her at the end. She tried to bury the hatchet and as a final attempt offered an apology. Corinne, however, was just like "Thanks!" and that was it. She could've said something, anything, in return, but she acted like Taylor did something hideous and she did nothing and it was Taylor's duty to apologise to her. All she showed was that she's the best there is at holding a childish grudge. I hate that they keep indulging her.

Danielle L. is ridiculous. You went on two dates with the guy and are still crying about it 4 months later? For real? I rolled my eyes so hard when she said she would've rather gone home after their 1-on-1 than been subjected to the 2-on-1. You made it to the final seven! Not two, se-ven. He really led you on there. NOT. If she's really still thinking that they had some amazing connection and Nick just failed to see it since she was so rattled due to being on the dreaded 2-on-1, she's delusional. I hope she was acting because if not, I'm worried about her.

It's always so annoying when the nobodies keep yapping in hopes of getting a BIP offer. No one cares what you have to say.

I'm also annoyed by them all asking what was missing and why Nick dismissed them despite them thinking they're exactly what Nick wants. It's not bloody rocket science. There's one of him, 30 of you, do the math! I can understand asking that when you're dumped in a real monogamous relationship, but with hoardes of other women in the picture, I'd rather just deduce that he felt more strongly for someone else than hear some specific criticism.

[peachmangosteen]

12 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

I wish I was one of those people who found Corinne entertaining. Maybe then I wouldn't be so bitter about the way she ate this season (or more accurately, the way the producers allowed her to eat this season).

I like Corinne and I'm still bitter about how she ate this season. The editors really killed this season.

11 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Oh, man, he's going to pick Vanessa despite the fact that neither will move and they both think compromise is important...as long as it's the other person compromising. At least that's the impression I got from their terse talk.

LMAO! That's the impression I got from that scene, too.

11 hours ago, dbell1 said:

I'd hang out with Alexis in a heartbeat, she seems like fun.

I'm gonna need Alexis to be the focus of season 3 of that Bachelor spin-off on Freeform because I adore her.

10 hours ago, awaken said:

Exactly what traditions and core values were Vanessa and Nick going on and on about? I was really confused. Seems like they were euphemisms for something else?   Was her Sunday tradition more than just getting together with her family every Sunday for three hours? Was it something faith based that they didn't want to say out loud?  And then they jumped into bed together? 

The hatchet job of editing on that scene made it so hard to follow. It did feel like they were talking in code or something because virtually nothing they said made any sense.

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

"I may be white, but I'm still a minority." Oh, Nick.

Right! I was so embarrassed for him

4 hours ago, DEL901 said:

When Rachel and Nick were kissing after she read the fantasy suite card, ... they just pressed their lips together, waited, kind of changed their lip position and did it again.  No passion at all.  Agree with the poster who said they act more like friends than anything else.

In the preview for the finale there was a shot of Nick on top of Raven on the ground and they did the same kind of kiss. It was SO awkward lol.

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

What I got from their conversation was that she was trying to understand if Nick would consider it. So in other words it's not that she won't but it is annoying if it's just expected that it has to be her and he won't even consider the same when again, what's holding Nick to wherever he is? As opposed to her who has a full life - job, family, etc. 

I thought this was probably what she was doing, too. All I was thinking during that convo was that it really makes more sense for Nick to move to Canada than the other way around. Nick can do his 'job' wherever, but Vanessa's job is going to require a lot more work if she relocates. Although she might just stop teaching and do something else. Oh who am I kidding, they're not going to get married, so none of this matters!

As I've said before, I go back and forth on Vanessa, and in this ep I really liked her. She was so fun and funny during the cold water dip portion of the date. I love her foul mouth! And I love the way she does her 'everyday' makeup. I'm not a fan of her glam look, but her more natural look is stunning. And her dress at the rose ceremony was amazing.

Corinne needs to get a restraining order against Josephine because girl is obsessed with her!

Edited March 7, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[truthaboutluv]

36 minutes ago, MsPH said:

That's pretty rare on this show, since there's an inherent power inbalance between the lead and the contestants. Most contestants are so in the bubble they'll say anything to win and choose to worry about the real stuff later. I'd much rather listen to Nick and Vanessa assessing their relationship potential and talking about their non-negotiables than another discussion about "opening up" and "never expecting to feel like this".

This exactly. So many issues with this whole "process" and some wonder why so few of the relationships last? Nick's own sister asked him about this when he was on Andi's season, during his HTD - i.e. if he felt he could truly be himself with her, flaws and all because of exactly that, the power imbalance. Where the contestant is so afraid of being eliminated that they just go along with everything the lead says or wants and never calls them out on anything. 

I absolutely understand why some see Vanessa as almost harsh and humorless but for me, what I see is someone who lead or not, wasn't going to let Nick bullshit around with his answers and explanations. She wanted real and clear answers from him. And yes obviously there are certain things he cannot answer implicitly because of the nature of the show but that doesn't mean he can only speak in vague, noncommittal answers.

At the start of the season, in his speech for the first night,  Nick told the women to feel empowered to see the whole process as their journey too and Vanessa clearly took that to heart. When I watch Nick and Vanessa's scenes, I feel like this isn't a contestant trying to get the lead to pick her but rather a woman interested in a man who is trying to confirm that he is right for her and not just the other way around. And again, if he picks her, Nick can't say he didn't go in with his eyes wide open. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[dleighg]

anyone know what Vanessa's "wrap" was made of?

[RHJunkie]

10 minutes ago, MsPH said:

I was also confused by Liz suddenly turning her appearance into some feminist empowerment speech. Did I miss something, because I haven't seen her be slut-shamed anywhere? Unless it's happened in her hometown in the middle of nowhere. Pretty sure most people were fine with her having a one-night stand and leaving it at that. It's the not even trying to contact him for 9 months, even though her bestie had his number, and then going on TV to date him and having no proper answers to any of his questions that people were questioning, understandably so. I'm sure she has many great qualities, but the whole love fest was over the top.

She was just trying to detract from the fact that she had no good answer for why she would try to 'test the waters' with Nick again on national television when she could have easily picked up the phone and given him a call. And her speech really annoyed me - I'm a strong and empowered woman but it's such a false premise to preach about finding a man that loves and appreciates you as if just being a woman automatically makes you a great catch and that you deserve the world. No - you deserve as much as you're willing to give someone else and as much as you're willing to better yourself. All that talk was BS to earn a quick ovation and shift the conversation away from questions that she had no damn good answers to.

10 minutes ago, MsPH said:

Taylor and her amazing brain are the definition of immature, but I did feel a bit bad for her at the end. She tried to bury the hatchet and as a final attempt offered an apology. Corinne, however, was just like "Thanks!" and that was it. She could've said something, anything, in return, but she acted like Taylor did something hideous and she did nothing and it was Taylor's duty to apologise to her. All she showed was that she's the best there is at holding a childish grudge. I hate that they keep indulging her.

Taylor only offered that apology because she felt it was the only way to get one in return. She didn't feel bad for what she did - in fact when she was in the hot seat, she defended what she did and said that Corinne brought it on herself. Taylor's request for an apology was seeded in wanting Corinne to apologize for saying that Taylor was a poor example of someone in the mental health field because she used her education to judge and belittle Corinne....but that is exactly what Taylor did and she doesn't deserve an apology for someone recognizing her behaviour and commenting on it. If she wants Corinne to apologize for calling her names like monster or whatever else she called her, then fair enough. But Taylor is absolutely delusional if she thinks that her career has been impacted solely by Corinne's assessment of her (and to think a retraction can fix everything). Corinne's comments have carried weight and impact in Taylor's life because it was substantiated by Taylor's own words and actions. She never once acknowledged her behaviour as being inappropriate. All that said, Corinne is immature, she loved the attention and she's going to do everything she can to milk the spotlight as much as she can. From what I heard, there was little drama between the women this season and overall the women all had nice things to say about each other so I guess that made for more TV time for the one girl who was out there and being controversial. It ruined the season and I begrudge Taylor mainly because it was her stupid approach with Corinne that has turned Corinne into a controversial fan favourite and we'll be seeing her past 15 minutes which is unfortunate.

[Zung Li]

I only glanced up from my video game a couple of times during the caterwauling of WTA but each time I saw Josephine's pie hole moving. I feel like I can't comment because I will be accused of t***** shaming. If I comment on the horse-headed Hailey I'll be accused of equine shaming. I didn't remember her until I saw those teeth and had a flashback from the wedding date.

Rachel is a pretty crier and has a nice normal voice- good choice for Bachelorette. They better get her some decent men or I'm going to have to put my foot down and.... still watch.

[Bobcatkitten]

It think the reason that Vanessa and Nick's time sometimes seems boring and serious is because they are fully in a relationship and actually addressing real stuff - as opposed to just flitting around for fun and not having real feelings for anyone. It's a tell to me.  I also thought them going back and forth into the cold water was hilarious. 

[Ripley68]

The reason more Bachelorette couples last than Bachelor is simply because I believe the men don't care as much that their "fiancé" slept with 1 to 2 other guys in the same week and a half as them (how long between dates is it?).  I can't see Vanessa being okay with her relationship with Nick after watching him with Raven and Rachel last night, especially Rachel.  I will never understand the "This is such a fairy tale," when just 36 hours before the love of your life (who supposedly thinks you are the love of theirs), was telling another woman he had such deep feelings for her, and possibly having sex with her too.  I would also have a real problem with the "I'm in love with both of them" that they have previewed.  "It was only said for the show," only goes so far as an explanation.  I want to know if he had sex with any of them.  I really liked the scene of him making breakfast for Rachel.

This is the first full season of the Bachelor I've watched. Do the women always talk/yell all over each other for such a long period of time?  The AA girl sitting by Corrine was getting on my last nerve - she especially was talking over everyone.  The Pilates Instructor (I can not remember names to save my life) seemed to be one of the few with a clear view and a brain. 

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, waving feather said:

Liz is sadly mistaken if she thought people judged her because she slept with Nick. At least I haven't seen it in the places I go to online. People judged her because she is obviously being shady with her reasons on coming onto the show.

I think more people judged him for it, not her. You are right, her sin was being so shady. She lost me with "oh, he doesn't recognize me" and basically acting like she was totally playing him. I could care less if she hooked up at a wedding, that's practically a right of passage. But everything she did after that has been super shady.

[alannaofdoom]

9 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

The only thing I couldn't fathom is why 'Walking on Sunshine' wasn't the default choice for such a montage. What a classically blown opportunity. Just who are the editors on this show?

I assume they couldn't afford the rights. 

3 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

Okay, guys, Danielle M's (I hope that's her name?) cut down to her navel white jumpsuit that was so obviously taped on to her chest but still gapped every time she moved? Terrible. 

That jumpsuit would be much better for a standing-only event (like a rose ceremony?). Nonetheless, she still looked fantastic. Confidential to Danielle M: Call me if this experience has put you off men forever. (Hey, I live in hope!) 

I have to admit that I didn't watch a good chunk of the Women Tell All. I didn't need the re-litigation of Corinne v. Taylor. I definitely didn't need two full segments of The Corinne Show. I checked out and checked back in for the bloopers. But let's back up - dear god that first "viewing party" that they crashed. I mean, maybe I'm throwing stones from a glass house here, but that was... unhinged. (Of course I'd take any of those parties over three-fifths of the Backstreet Boys sitting in an empty dance studio.) 

MVP: all the reindeer. I suppose reindeer wouldn't make good pets but I want one anyway. Look at their furry snoots! Runner-up: Rachel's morning-after penguin onesie. Honorable mention: the phrase "slob kebab" as coined by Elizabeth. I don't remember her being on the show, but her words will echo through the years. 

LVP: Josephine's black lipstick. Girl. WHAT?

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm so sad I forgot to comment on Liz. Thank you all for reminding me.  I feel sorry for this woman. All of her grandstanding and crying and speeches made me feel uncomfortable.

I missed the first 3 minutes or so and I guess I missed Raven spinning around on the hillsides like Maria in The Sound of Music?  Damn it.

Poor, stupid Danielle.  If you watch the tape back and can't see Nick's interest in you falling as soon as he put it together that you say the word "like" every other word with nothing of substance in between.  Oh honey.  I think Nick even talked about this exact issue on Howard Stern recently.

I hate to say this (I guess I don't really), but I know someone who is a mental health counselor who is one of the craziest people I've ever known (to me - I know this is subjective).  I have another friend who is also a counselor who seems a lot more balanced.  Sometimes it blows your mind to see the people who choose that profession, doesn't it?

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Wings]

1 hour ago, dleighg said:

anyone know what Vanessa's "wrap" was made of?

It looks like alpaca.  It could be blend to make it look like alpaca, too!  

ETA.  or mohair 

Edited March 7, 2017 by wings707

[Rubyslippahz]

Danielle M really sexed it up in her WTA outfit.   She came across as so wan and retiring during the actual season.   Based on Insta, Danielle M seems to be just about the only woman who is friends with Vanessa.

Danielle L, sorry she is the WORST.  Her sobbing and inability to "understand" how Nick could possibly lose interest in her after spending time with her just created Exhibit Z in how boring and clueless she was.  I give Nick props for dismissing her when he did, because other guys would have taken her much further in the "journey" despite her utter banality.

[nlkm9]

this from the recap is gold (or platinum??lol)

 

<<Rachel greets him by giving Nick "The Bachelorette Handshake," which is when the woman wraps her legs around her man to greet him.>>

 

hahaha

[mostlylurking]

"It's always so annoying when the nobodies keep yapping in hopes of getting a BIP offer. No one cares what you have to say." (sorry the quote thingie is not coming up for some reason)

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly! My husband said I was mean but every time one of the no-names piped up with some banal comment I was like NO ONE CARES moving on....I would much rather hear the dolphin Alexis' opinions she seems awesome.

Taylor....what can I say, she's 23 and she acts like it. It's a great accomplishment to have a Master's degree, but you still fart like any of those lowly non-master's degree having peasants. Learn a little about life, get some life experience, and I am sure in 10 years you will look back at how naive you are right now, like most of us do;)

Nurse Danielle is absolutely beautiful and has a great body but I agree, that was a standing outfit. It just looked frumpy sitting down. Corinne's little wispy bangs were distracting, I thought the rest of her hair was ok though.

I think I am in the minority but I thought Rachel and Nick had a lot of chemistry. I wonder if the producers didn't peg her as the next bachelorette and made Nick let her go?? I really thought they were good together (aside from the fact that she's way too good for him, but they all are).

One good thing I can say about Nick is that he doesn't seem to be a misogynistic pig like some other men from this franchise. He seems to like strong women who state their opinions and have jobs and lives of their own. He also calls them women and not girls. I don't think he's a bad guy. But yeah, I think it will be Vanessa, because she fits those criteria a little more than Raven, and I don't think he wants to be with a 25 year old either.

[yorklee2]

12 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

I realize that: most people see no chemistry with them; that she's not everyone's cup of tea; that even I admit she needs to think before she speaks (especially in cases of potential public embarrassment); and that she's 'too young' but I'm still pulling for the upset pick of Raven. She's been there this long for a reason and I think they are the antithesis of he and Vanessa. They just let it roll and seem to have fun together. I know it won't happen...

I feel the same way. Like you I click off all the reasons why I shouldn't like her but for some reason I still do. Her worst fault is, as you said, she speaks before she thinks. Being forthcoming can sometimes be a good thing but she's young and hopefully she will learn as she gets older to rein it in some.

14 hours ago, Falafel said:

I can't fathom that Raven is in the Final Two.

Because she's fun, easy to be around and not a stick in the mud. And she's been that way consistently the whole season. We never saw any drama between her and any of the women. On the contrary she got along great with them like the bit on this episode where her and Corrine are having fun with the cheese balls. We've seen other examples of this like the time she was throwing them at Kristina as she tried to catch them in her mouth. She just seems like a laid back fun loving person who would be a joy to be around. I think Nick knew this and appreciated it. And although to me her looks are quirky/pretty, for those who seem to think she looks so frightening, I think having a good outlook and infectious personality like hers makes anyone soo much prettier and I think that's what Nick saw.

14 hours ago, backformore said:

NO, we don't.  We don't even know if they had sex.  We know what the producers want us to think.

Point taken but we also don't know they didn't. Either she's a really good actress or that smile and joy were real. I think the latter.

Edited March 7, 2017 by yorklee2

[Padma]

Nick should have chosen Rachel. She's beautiful, fun, seems friendly and nice, they appeared to have great chemistry and she doesn't take herself too seriously. I'm really looking forward to her as the b-ette, though. She doesn't seem crass and dumb like Kaitlyn or smug and conceited like Andi. Plus, hopefully they will get her some very hot, smart and men in late 20s-30s which I'll find more attractive than the barely 22 year olds.

I've liked Vanessa until last night. But now, while I think Nick will choose her, I don't think it will work.  He seems like he really IS a "give and take" kind of guy who would enjoy the same from a gf.  And yet, he's passed up the women who would be like that--Rachel, Kristina, Raven, even Corinne for (probably, from the look of EVERYTHING for a month) Vanessa.  And before her, for self-centered Andi and Kaitlyn who both gave me definite "bitch vibes" and "it's all about me".

Vanessa's talk about compromise while making it clear she is completely Inflexible herself pretty much said this relationship is doomed.  She seemed very immature to me with that demand, "non-negotiable", of spending hours with her family every, single Sunday. First, that means no moving, even if they relocated to some place far from her family in Canada even, like Vancouver which could be nice, near Seattle.

That would be an immediate deal-breaker for me. Because by your late 20s I think its nice to NOT be that close to/dependent on your family any more.  Weekends mean a lot, even more so when you're a couple. Unless the couple doesn't work, I think giving over one Sunday once a month to the wife's family is plenty.  Plenty!

Just the way she talked about it, I found irritating. "This is who I am. This is what matters to me. I don't care if when we're together you don't like it and want to do something else on a Sunday. This is what we would have to do."

Bad!

I think Nick's problem is he really -does- like strong women as he says and probably the women that are too doting on him bore him and don't give him the rush of the chase. So he winds up with non-starters like Andi, Vanessa and Kaitlyn who put themselves first all the time rather than someone who is more considerate.

I still like him, though, and he did well overall on the show (except for pushing Rachel to say ILY and leading her on--my least favorite part of the show, always).

He seems like a nice, likeable guy. Maybe he'll find someone via Dancing With The Stars.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Padma

[Kbilly]

Raven is such cannon fodder. They don't have the "who moves?" convo when he's a "Star" who will constantly be filming reality TV shows and she owns her own business in the South? Like she's going to uproot? She's an easy dump to take to the final two.

Guys...what actually happened on The Volleyball Date of 2016?? Rachel said something about freaking out on the volleyball date and Nick made a face like "hoo-boy ya you did!!" It had to have been some massive blow-up that they smoothed over so future Bach and final one didn't look bad. But I would've liked to have seen it.

It's so sad when the booted Bachelorettes grasp for attention/screen time. I loved when Chris asked Corrine if she had anything to say to Taylor and she was like : "No." AND YET SHE PERSISTED.

It was a really horrible two hours.

[truthaboutluv]

2 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

Guys...what actually happened on The Volleyball Date of 2016?? Rachel said something about freaking out on the volleyball date and Nick made a face like "hoo-boy ya you did!!" It had to have been some massive blow-up that they smoothed over so future Bach and final one didn't look bad. But I would've liked to have seen it.

The only thing that's been revealed, per RS, is that the volleyball game was supposed to be a competition where the winning team got to spend more time with Nick and the losing team go back to the hotel. But when the losing team started crying and got upset, Nick kept them all. This was later confirmed by Rachel's older sister on Facebook, the night after that episode aired (I think she's the one married to the white guy we saw on the HTD), because many were wondering why all the women were so upset.

The sister mentioned the same thing about keeping the losing team but added fuel to the Vanessa vs. Rachel fire by stating that when the women lost, Vanessa threw a tantrum because the attention wasn't on her for once and so Nick spent the time coddling her and kept everyone. So my guess about Rachel's freak out was being pissed that Nick changed the rules and I guess apparently spent time coddling Vanessa. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[saber5055]

Vanessa: "My life has many things that I will never compromise on." Vanessa: "Being in love means compromise." WTH?

[RHJunkie]

9 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

The only thing that's been revealed, per RS, is that the volleyball game was supposed to be a competition where the winning team got to spend more time with Nick and the losing team go back to the hotel. But when the losing team started crying and got upset, Nick kept them all. This was later confirmed by Rachel's older sister on Facebook, the night after that episode aired (I think she's the one married to the white guy we saw on the HTD), because many were wondering why all the women were so upset.

The sister mentioned the same thing about keeping the losing team but added fuel to the Vanessa vs. Rachel fire by stating that when the women lost, Vanessa threw a tantrum because the attention wasn't on her for once and so Nick spent the time coddling her and kept everyone. So my guess about Rachel's freak out was being pissed that Nick changed the rules and I guess apparently spent time coddling Vanessa. 

According to Jasmine and Alexis, they said they weren't around for any of that drama and all of the women got along though all the girls had their own closer friendships among the group outside of the Corinne/Taylor issue. Both said that they thought was Vanessa was cool and Alexis said that she liked Vanessa from jump because she was the first girl of the bunch that took her costume in stride and having fun with her over it.  What struck me is that Jasmine was on that group date and she claims that she was gone so I'm wondering if Jasmine was not in the area at the time of this tantrum or if there was actually something else that happened after that incident that both girls heard about it but weren't around to witness. Truthfully, the volleyball incident doesn't seem like such a big deal if it was really about Nick allowing a losing team to continue on with the date - it's not like he changed the rules from a one one one to a 6 woman date. Bachelors have done this before. And it also seems like a non-issue after the fact because whatever 'tantrum' Vanessa threw after being frustrated with losing and losing time with Nick, it seems like Rachel and possibly others threw their own tantrums about something or the other that happened in which case, it kind of cancelled each other out. It seems Raven was the only one that may have kept her cool on that group date.

[truthaboutluv]

Just now, RHJunkie said:

According to Jasmine and Alexis, they said they weren't around for any of that drama and all of the women got along though all the girls had their own closer friendships among the group outside of the Corinne/Taylor issue. Both said that they thought was Vanessa was cool and Alexis said that she liked Vanessa from jump because she was the first girl of the bunch that took her costume in stride and having fun with her over it.  What struck me is that Jasmine was on that group date and she claims that she was gone so I'm wondering if Jasmine was not in the area at the time of this tantrum or if there was actually something else that happened after that incident that both girls heard about it but weren't around to witness. Truthfully, the volleyball incident doesn't seem like such a big deal if it was really about Nick allowing a losing team to continue on with the date - it's not like he changed the rules from a one one one to a 6 woman date. Bachelors have done this before. And it also seems like a non-issue after the fact because whatever 'tantrum' Vanessa threw after being frustrated with losing and losing time with Nick, it seems like Rachel and possibly others threw their own tantrums about something or the other that happened in which case, it kind of cancelled each other out. It seems Raven was the only one that may have kept her cool on that group date.

For the record, I'm not taking any side on this or saying that I believe everything that was reported was fact because it's all hearsay and perception is reality. I was merely giving an explanation since someone wondered about the whole volleyball date. As I've said before, I don't really judge these people for not getting along or someone not liking the other while the show was filming because let's face it, this show is bred for drama. Journey for love my behind - sure if a couple comes out of it, great. But these producers are there to make these people as crazy as possible, heighten insecurities and tension and hope for explosions that will make for great television. I also have no interest in pitting women against each other. Society does enough of that. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[sekay87]

  29 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

The only thing that's been revealed, per RS, is that the volleyball game was supposed to be a competition where the winning team got to spend more time with Nick and the losing team go back to the hotel. But when the losing team started crying and got upset, Nick kept them all. This was later confirmed by Rachel's older sister on Facebook, the night after that episode aired (I think she's the one married to the white guy we saw on the HTD), because many were wondering why all the women were so upset.

The sister mentioned the same thing about keeping the losing team but added fuel to the Vanessa vs. Rachel fire by stating that when the women lost, Vanessa threw a tantrum because the attention wasn't on her for once and so Nick spent the time coddling her and kept everyone. So my guess about Rachel's freak out was being pissed that Nick changed the rules and I guess apparently spent time coddling Vanessa. 

According to Jasmine and Alexis, they said they weren't around for any of that drama and all of the women got along though all the girls had their own closer friendships among the group outside of the Corinne/Taylor issue. Both said that they thought was Vanessa was cool and Alexis said that she liked Vanessa from jump because she was the first girl of the bunch that took her costume in stride and having fun with her over it.  What struck me is that Jasmine was on that group date and she claims that she was gone so I'm wondering if Jasmine was not in the area at the time of this tantrum or if there was actually something else that happened after that incident that both girls heard about it but weren't around to witness. Truthfully, the volleyball incident doesn't seem like such a big deal if it was really about Nick allowing a losing team to continue on with the date - it's not like he changed the rules from a one one one to a 6 woman date. Bachelors have done this before. And it also seems like a non-issue after the fact because whatever 'tantrum' Vanessa threw after being frustrated with losing and losing time with Nick, it seems like Rachel and possibly others threw their own tantrums about something or the other that happened in which case, it kind of cancelled each other out. It seems Raven was the only one that may have kept her cool on that group date.

According to RS, a lot of issues surrounding Vanessa were left on the cutting room floor, probably because she is the winner. There was a massive fight with Rachel in Bimini where all the other girls sided with Rachel and then an incident earlier on where Vanessa told Nick she thought Danielle L was fake, and the other girls went after Vanessa because prior to that she had been acting like BFFs with Danielle L. So who knows what the truth is, but based on editing I can see how Vanessa was more of an issue among the other girls, even moreso than Corrine.

[1992austenlover]

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

This exactly. So many issues with this whole "process" and some wonder why so few of the relationships last? Nick's own sister asked him about this when he was on Andi's season, during his HTD - i.e. if he felt he could truly be himself with her, flaws and all because of exactly that, the power imbalance. Where the contestant is so afraid of being eliminated that they just go along with everything the lead says or wants and never calls them out on anything. 

I absolutely understand why some see Vanessa as almost harsh and humorless but for me, what I see is someone who lead or not, wasn't going to let Nick bullshit around with his answers and explanations. She wanted real and clear answers from him. And yes obviously there are certain things he cannot answer implicitly because of the nature of the show but that doesn't mean he can only speak in vague, noncommittal answers.

At the start of the season, in his speech for the first night,  Nick told the women to feel empowered to see the whole process as their journey too and Vanessa clearly took that to heart. When I watch Nick and Vanessa's scenes, I feel like this isn't a contestant trying to get the lead to pick her but rather a woman interested in a man who is trying to confirm that he is right for her and not just the other way around. And again, if he picks her, Nick can't say he didn't go in with his eyes wide open. 

I feel like last night's episode was the first episode where I truly understood Nick and Vanessa's relationship. Up until that point (due to the editing), I didn't really get them as a couple beyond the fact that they have great chemistry...but now I can finally see it. The way that they communicate has never really been typical for this show. They are both so direct and open and honest with their feelings to the point where sometimes you genuinely cannot tell whether you are watching The Bachelor or The Bachelorette when they are in a scene together and I think that speaks to the nature of their relationship as well as who they are as people on the whole. When Nick said that they were similar and spoke about his reservations regarding the relationship, I started to look at Vanessa through Nick's eyes and I totally can see what he meant. Because of the editing lately, I've only seen Vanessa really talk about her issues regarding Nick in her diary sessions which, to me, suggested that she wasn't really communicating all of her concerns with Nick (even though she communicated some of them, there were other things that she didn't seem to talk about with him because of how it was edited) and therefore made her come across as a humourless whiner more than anything else. However, seeing them interact tonight made me understand why he has kept her around and why she chooses to stay. They "get each other" because they are similar people; they are both passionate, emotional, stubborn and strong-minded individuals who put a high value on honesty, trust and transparency in a relationship, and who seem to know what they want and are confident enough in themselves to get it. Even when you compare how they've approached their respective seasons, they were very similar: when Nick was chasing Andi and Kaitlyn, he was very confident in those relationships and genuinely believed that his connections were so much stronger than anyone else's...Vanessa has shown that same level of confidence in her connection with Nick which was evident when she was expecting Nick (a couple of weeks ago) to tell her that he was falling in love with her (or something to that effect) when she told him that she was falling for him. I've read many comments about how people think that Vanessa is too good for Nick but when I saw them together last night, I felt like I was looking at two equals who both understood each other--flaws and all--and who are able to communicate in such a way where they can express how they are feeling in a direct, respectful manner without worrying about offending the other person in the conversation. I thought that they came across as very mature and I thought that their comfort level with each other was very apparent. I do also like that Nick isn't blinded when it comes to Vanessa--I like that he is extremely aware of the difficulties that their relationship will inevitably have due to the nature of their personalities/circumstances--and it just seems like they have such an authentic relationship at this point. Will it last? I won't lie and say that I'm not worried for them because I do think that Nick has a point. I can see them having one of those passionate relationships that will have a lot of highs and lows to the point where eventually it might become too difficult and volatile to make things work. That being said, I am rooting for them as I do think that they could have something very special--but only if they are serious about compromising and putting in the work.  

[dleighg]

5 minutes ago, 1992austenlover said:

feel like last night's episode was the first episode where I truly understood Nick and Vanessa's relationship.

I noticed something in that long conversation in the hot tub. Nick said that "xxx will be a challenge for us" rather than "xxx would be a challenge for us". I think it was the thing about them being a lot alike. So IMHO there was a slip that they've long ago come to an understanding that she's the one. 

[saber5055]

I've always liked Nick, even on his first (of now five) shows he's been on. But you know how something you think is so cute and adorable at the beginning of a relationship evolves into something that makes you want to stab that person to death later on? I was in the other room when this episode started so only heard Nick, and WOW, his lisp is really noticeable if you aren't seeing him speak. Yikes. I'll have to keep my distance from him for sure.

[1992austenlover]

1 minute ago, dleighg said:

I noticed something in that long conversation in the hot tub. Nick said that "xxx will be a challenge for us" rather than "xxx would be a challenge for us". I think it was the thing about them being a lot alike. So IMHO there was a slip that they've long ago come to an understanding that she's the one. 

That's interesting. I wonder what this season would have looked like if the editors weren't so preoccupied with creating an air of mystery as opposed to just giving the viewers a more accurate and honest depiction of Nick and Vanessa's relationship. I still can't believe that it took for the penultimate episode of the season for me to finally understand them as a couple. I mean, I've still enjoyed the season and all but damn...the production decisions have been really strange and weird this time around lol. 

[mspaul]

5 hours ago, b2H said:

Dear hubby wants to go to Lapland, though, based on what we saw.

You should most definitely go!!  Somehow, I ended up being there at the exact same time this was filmed, part of the time at a resort about 20 minutes from the town they were in.  Sadly (or thankfully), we were totally unaware of Bachelor being there.  But it is even more beautiful and fun than it looks.  We started in Helsinki and worked our way to almost the top over the course of two weeks, and I would go back in a heartbeat.

I think Nick likes strong women because of his mother - she definitely has what a friend calls the "I'd like to speak to the manager" vibe.

 

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 I wonder what this season would have looked like if the editors weren't so preoccupied with creating an air of mystery as opposed to just giving the viewers a more accurate and honest depiction of Nick and Vanessa's relationship. I still can't believe that it took for the penultimate episode of the season for me to finally understand them as a couple. I mean, I've still enjoyed the season and all but damn...the production decisions have been really strange and weird this time around lol. 

I feel like they do that all the time, with almost all the dates.  Last week I said to a friend that I thought the conversation that Nick and Raven had about ironing vs steaming was quite possibly the most real and interesting conversation I'd ever heard on the Bachelor.

Edited March 7, 2017 by mspaul

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, dleighg said:

I noticed something in that long conversation in the hot tub. Nick said that "xxx will be a challenge for us" rather than "xxx would be a challenge for us". I think it was the thing about them being a lot alike. So IMHO there was a slip that they've long ago come to an understanding that she's the one. 

Yeah Sharleen pointed this out in her recap. That's what I really noticed last night. With both Rachel and Raven, a lot of the conversation was the usual Bachelor show conversations that always happen, especially at this point in the season. Nick and Vanessa's conversations always sound like them being together at the end was a given and they were discussing any potential issues that could come. 

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That's interesting. I wonder what this season would have looked like if the editors weren't so preoccupied with creating an air of mystery as opposed to just giving the viewers a more accurate and honest depiction of Nick and Vanessa's relationship.

My guess is the boring complaints would still exist but more that it was so obvious who he's picking that what is even the point of watching. I do think the producers underestimate that viewers may genuinely appreciate seeing an actual love story and not forced drama, cartoon characters like Corinne that eat the show, manipulative edits, etc. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[threebluestars]

I think what I hated is that Rachel going home felt more like producer manipulation than anything. I think they wanted her as Bachelorette, told both Nick and her that, and they decided that was the best route and they did it. Everything with their goodbye seemed really easy and nice.