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Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

frenchtoast

By frenchtoast
in Counting On

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sugarplum
sugarplum

I’m in the minority here and don’t see their posting on SM being a millennial thing, or just because they are on TV. I’ve had 3 close friends who have gone through something very similar. One was preg

Churchhoney
Churchhoney

Is that you, Michelle?

doodlebug
doodlebug

If a midwife did a vaginal exam and was able to tell she was 6 cm, it should’ve been reasonably easy for that same midwife to diagnose the baby as breech. It seems to me that these midwives don’t lear

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mimionthebeach

mimionthebeach

Every time i come across the name Gideon, i think of the character in this book. I read it 30 years ago and its still the strongest impression i have of the name.  (Mandy Patinkin  (❤) may have nudged it aside for a little while.)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_Dragon

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I can't get this rid of this box. 

libgirl2

libgirl2

46 minutes ago, mimionthebeach said:

Every time i come across the name Gideon, i think of the character in this book. I read it 30 years ago and its still the strongest impression i have of the name.  (Mandy Patinkin  (❤) may have nudged it aside for a little while.)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_Dragon

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I can't get this rid of this box. 

I always think of Gideon Kent from John Jakes' Kent Family Chronicles series. 

Flip04

Flip04

56 minutes ago, mimionthebeach said:

Every time i come across the name Gideon, i think of the character in this book. I read it 30 years ago and its still the strongest impression i have of the name.  (Mandy Patinkin  (❤) may have nudged it aside for a little while.)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_Dragon

  Reveal hidden contents

I can't get this rid of this box. 

I think of the movie "One Magic Christmas" and Gideon the Angel. 

Love the movie

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DragonFaerie

DragonFaerie

I'm pretty sure Austin's head would explode if he learned that his son looks like a character from a TV sitcom.  Where a straight guy shares an apt. with 2 straight girls while the man pretends to be GAY!  and none of them go to church!  And they wear short shorts and defraud everyone!!  Quick who has their contact info  :-)

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saylubee

saylubee

12 minutes ago, Fuzzysox said:

Pickles is saying that Joyless and Austin sold their house and brought another one? She offers no proof. 

They bought land.  She had the land transfer document.  Likely the gravel pit pictures were from the land they are building a new house on.  She’s also speculating Joy is pregnant again.

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awaken

awaken

8 hours ago, Mollie said:

Gideon is the name of a Biblical army commander who lived in the days of the Judges, after the death of Joshua and before the reign of King David.  He was the first man to have this name.

Yes, I always think of Gideon in the Bible, and “laying out a fleece”. 

6 hours ago, DragonFaerie said:

I'm pretty sure Austin's head would explode if he learned that his son looks like a character from a TV sitcom.  Where a straight guy shares an apt. with 2 straight girls while the man pretends to be GAY!  and none of them go to church!  And they wear short shorts and defraud everyone!!  Quick who has their contact info  :-)

We’ve got to tell him!

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Sew Sumi

Sew Sumi

(edited)

Pickles is how she refers to herself. She claims that she was getting death threats from leghumpers when her real name was known. She took down her personal FB page as well (I checked.) I'm banned now, but I go back to the beginning of her page when the snark was much better than it is these days. 

Edited by Sew Sumi
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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

I'm still unsure of Austin and who he is. But as another poster said, Joy may be happier moving gravel. I know I would have been. I've always been much happier mowing a lawn, redoing a room or building a fence than cleaning and cooking. And when Joy was playing Fundy fiance about her hair, Austin encouraged her to make the decision. After seeing her hair on her wedding day I kind of wished Austin had an opinion, but whatever.

I believe all the Duggar kidults use pieces of the Pearl method and all have a Pearl mindset in regard to how children should learn to obey and behave. I'm guessing they're not all taking time to have blanket training sessions (because, thankfully - lazy), but they're likely swatting a baby when the 'opportunity' arises. And once that 3rd kid comes along they'll all be having their older kids redirecting the babies as well.

Austin doesn't seem all that interested in sitting back and depending on TLC as a sole income at this point. And he's not using social media to promote his beliefs using the Duggar coattails. I'm still trying to figure Austin out.

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Fostersmom

Fostersmom

7 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm still unsure of Austin and who he is. But as another poster said, Joy may be happier moving gravel. I know I would have been. I've always been much happier mowing a lawn, redoing a room or building a fence than cleaning and cooking. And when Joy was playing Fundy fiance about her hair, Austin encouraged her to make the decision. After seeing her hair on her wedding day I kind of wished Austin had an opinion, but whatever.

I believe all the Duggar kidults use pieces of the Pearl method and all have a Pearl mindset in regard to how children should learn to obey and behave. I'm guessing they're not all taking time to have blanket training sessions (because, thankfully - lazy), but they're likely swatting a baby when the 'opportunity' arises. And once that 3rd kid comes along they'll all be having their older kids redirecting the babies as well.

Austin doesn't seem all that interested in sitting back and depending on TLC as a sole income at this point. And he's not using social media to promote his beliefs using the Duggar coattails. I'm still trying to figure Austin out.

I agree with this. I truly think Joy was more than happy to be moving the gravel. I think she'd be happy to be out there every day, all day, with him if Austin would go for it, but I don't think he would. I think he's okay with her being there here and there, but doesn't want her with him all day every day. 

I'm not sure the Duggar kids are all on board with their parent's child rearing theories. The older ones were heavily disciplined, the middle batch were disciplined by Jana, and the younger ones are just feral kids at this point. Joy's probably about the kid everything was handed to Jana to be done. Joy will follow what Austin wants and I'm not sure that's a good thing though. I have a feeling he's going to have a very rigid mindset of how a child should be raised. I see him as being strict, but on the other hand, not off his rocker like Derick appears to be. 

I'll give it to Austin for having a solid work ethic and out of all the sons and sons in laws, he's so far the only one with this going for him. Show could be cancelled today, and he'll be able to support Joy and how many ever kids they end up with. John David seems to have some skills, but I'm also not confident he could independently support a giant family without his father's support. The other Duggar sons aren't self supporting and the rest of the in laws are all on various degrees of church paths. Jeremy seems to be at least holding his own for now and shows some desire, even if it looks to be half assed, Ben seems to be at least content with what he's doing, even if the rest of us don't get it, and Derick's the only one who is bat shit crazy and makes most of us fear for his family. 

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Lady Edith

Lady Edith

Not sure if I’m late to the party on this one, but I saw this on Pickles and thought it deserved a repost...(ignore if it’s slready been discussed)...

https://people.com/tv/joy-anna-duggar-home-birth-wasnt-going-to-risk-mom-baby-life/

After 20 hours of labor the midwife FINALLY declares that Giddyup was breach?  TWENTY HOURS?!?!?  The midwife couldn’t tell the baby was breech before this?  I’m pretty sure a qualified medical professional would have spotted the baby’s position so much earlier than this, like at an appointment prior to labor even starting!  I know babies can (and will) turn but for the love of Pete, these women are taking huge risks with their own lives and the lives of their babies.  Doctors and REAL midwives (not doulas pretending to be real midwives) would’ve been able to tell right away that something was amiss. 

I just want to shake them by the shoulders and make them wake up...the risks they are taking with their babies’ and their own lives are just horrid. Seriously, without medical intervention at the 11th hour, bad things could’ve happened with Jill, Jessa, and Joy.  Not to mention the littles they put at risk.  Anna has success with her homebirths but she isn’t them and shouldn’t be held up as a reason why they can do this too (Anna is a risk taker too, so I’m not condoning what she is doing either).  

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Minivanessa

Minivanessa

(edited)
4 hours ago, Lady Edith said:

I just want to shake them by the shoulders and make them wake up...the risks they are taking with their babies’ and their own lives are just horrid. Seriously, without medical intervention at the 11th hour, bad things could’ve happened with Jill, Jessa, and Joy.  

I expect that they will continue the home birth madness, and will continue to avoid tragic outcomes because they can call 911 and be taken to a hospital for emergency or urgent medical care. Or, as I'm sure they will tell you, because Jesus. 

Have any of these Duggarlings or their sperm donors bothered to publicly thank the EMTs, nurses, doctors, and other emergency responders who were on duty and saved them and their babies? I'd like to think so, because kindness and gratitude are, I understand, Christlike qualities.

Edited to add this, and then again to correct a technical misuse of "emergency" about C-sections: So, Jill had two emergency unscheduled C-sections, Joy has had one emergency unscheduled C-section, and Jessa was transported by ambulance after giving birth at home because she was hemorrhaging. That's four births that started at home and ended up at the hospital. Jessa's second birth, Henry, was at home without complications. Four out of five Duggar daughter attempted home births required emergency or last-minute medical assistance/hospitalizations, and three of those were emergency unscheduled C-sections. 

Jinger and Jeremy apparently were able to look at those facts and decide that it would be OK with Jesus if Jinger didn't join the Duggar Daughter home birth party. Good for them. Jinger looked great in the photos with her newborn. I hope her sisters - married and unmarried - are paying attention. 

Edited by Jeeves
Clarification about what's medically an "emergency" C-section
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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

I wonder if Joy thinks of her C-section as an emergency. Derick said Jill's C-sections weren't emergencies because the 'C-section option' was part of their birth plans. I was left with the impression that Derick feels an emergency C-section is when a laboring woman is swept up and thrown into the OR without an examination. 

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Minivanessa

Minivanessa

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I wonder if Joy thinks of her C-section as an emergency. Derick said Jill's C-sections weren't emergencies because the 'C-section option' was part of their birth plans. I was left with the impression that Derick feels an emergency C-section is when a laboring woman is swept up and thrown into the OR without an examination. 

If Joy's wasn't an "emergency C-section," it was definitely an unscheduled C-section. Derick can split hairs all day about the "emergency" adjective, but the fact is that neither of Jill's C-sections were scheduled, and from what we know of her labor with Izzy, she and the baby were in risky territory by the time they got to the hospital (meconium can indicate fetal distress, the baby was big and breech, yikes). 

So to slightly reword what I posted above: Four out of five Duggar daughter attempted home births resulted in last-minute medical intervention and hospitalizations, including one emergency transport of a hemorrhaging Jessa to the hospital, and three unscheduled hospital C-sections (two for Jill, one for Joy).  We don't know if any of the three unscheduled C-sections would meet some strict definition of "emergency" (i.e., how soon after arrival was the procedure done), but they were certainly urgent situations. I'd like to think Jinger and Jeremy looked at the facts of her sisters' birth experiences, and decided it would be fine with Jesus if they didn't try to have a home birth.

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floridamom

floridamom

From what I have noticed, the Duggars have yet to publicly thank anyone outside of their own family for their help and intervention.

Why do these silly girls having babies at home without EVER having seen a qualified, licensed obstetric professional think that it's "OK" to just show up at the nearest hospital in a distressful situation without having ANY obstetric records with them? Prior information would GREATLY help the poor physician that has to treat them when in labor. The doctors and medical personnel at the hospital have no knowledge of their case and status and have to 'go blind'..so to speak. Not good for ANY of them...baby, mother or physician. Silly 'fly by night' Duggars...so ignorant.

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doodlebug

doodlebug

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3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I wonder if Joy thinks of her C-section as an emergency. Derick said Jill's C-sections weren't emergencies because the 'C-section option' was part of their birth plans. I was left with the impression that Derick feels an emergency C-section is when a laboring woman is swept up and thrown into the OR without an examination. 

In medical terms, it was probably urgent but not emergent.  An emergency cesarean, in general, is one in which either mother or baby would be in mortal danger if it was not done within 30 minutes of the diagnosis of the problem.  Not many cesareans are emergent; the classic example is a placental abruption with the baby's heart rate falling..  Urgent cesareans are one that need done as soon as possible because either mother or baby is at potential risk of harm with waiting.  Most cesareans done on women in labor or with ruptured membranes are urgent.  The final category is an elective cesarean section.  Those are cesareans placed on the regular surgical schedule in advance.  For example, a woman whose baby is known to be breech prior to labor would often be encouraged to schedule a cesarean around 39 weeks gestation in order to avoid labor because cesareans done on women in labor have a far higher complication rate than those performed in the absence of labor.

4 minutes ago, floridamom said:

From what I have noticed, the Duggars have yet to publicly thank anyone outside of their own family for their help and intervention.

Why do these silly girls having babies at home without EVER having seen a qualified, licensed obstetric professional think that it's "OK" to just show up at the nearest hospital in a distressful situation without having ANY obstetric records with them? Prior information would GREATLY help the poor physician that has to treat them when in labor. The doctors and medical personnel at the hospital have no knowledge of their case and status and have to 'go blind'..so to speak. Not good for ANY of them...baby, mother or physician. Silly 'fly by night' Duggars...so ignorant.

Hey now!  All of the Duggars have had a social ultrasound and they know what sex their baby is and I am sure they are happy to share that information with the staff so that they can get out the appropriate newborn cap and card for the crib.  What more could they possibly want?

  • Love 33
Minivanessa

Minivanessa

(edited)
3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I wonder if Joy thinks of her C-section as an emergency. Derick said Jill's C-sections weren't emergencies because the 'C-section option' was part of their birth plans. I was left with the impression that Derick feels an emergency C-section is when a laboring woman is swept up and thrown into the OR without an examination. 

Thanks for the clarification from the medical perspective, @doodlebug. 

It's somehow not surprising that in his flailing around, Derick may be correct that Jill's C-sections weren't emergencies, but wrong in saying it's because they had a "C-section option" in their birth plans. If the C-sections weren't emergencies, it would have been because of the medical situation of the woman and fetus on admission to the hospital, as @doodlebug explained above. 

Edited by Jeeves
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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

Because I'm not a medical expert, I would consider Jill's and Joy's emergency C-sections, because Jill and Joy made the decision for medical intervention at the 11th hour (or 20+ hours). And because they were clueless to what was happening. So the stories of the births feel emergent to me.

But Derick's reasoning is far fetched because everyone has a loose 'plan' about seeking emergency intervention. Meaning if one is experiencing heart attack or stroke symptoms or severely cut themselves or broke a bone, they'd likely call an ambulance or drive directly to the ED because that is 'the plan'.

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doodlebug

doodlebug

6 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Because I'm not a medical expert, I would consider Jill's and Joy's emergency C-sections, because Jill and Joy made the decision for medical intervention at the 11th hour (or 20+ hours). And because they were clueless to what was happening. So the stories of the births feel emergent to me.

But Derick's reasoning is far fetched because everyone has a loose 'plan' about seeking emergency intervention. Meaning if one is experiencing heart attack or stroke symptoms or severely cut themselves or broke a bone, they'd likely call an ambulance or drive directly to the ED because that is 'the plan'.

And, if Derick is saying that a possible trip to the hospital was part of the plan, there is an implication that there were other options being considered.  What if a cesarean at the hospital was ruled out of the plan?  Was the option then to perform one at home?  Or, maybe, the 'plan' could've been to let nature take its course and Jill and/or the baby would be left to die.  

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riverblue22

riverblue22

I watched Joy and Austin's video and I have a couple of questions.

1) Was that a real midwife they were talking to?

2) Did Joy say that she had never attended any of her sister's birth events, she didn't know what to expect, but that her body knows what to do?  I'm just surprised that Joy wasn't considered of age to experience these expert home births of theirs, even though she was ready to be a teen bride.

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floridamom

floridamom

I had the same question, riverblue22. What are the credentials of the midwife with Joy and Austin? They didn't address that in the clip. I found Joy to be quite unprepared to have a baby at this time in her life. She simply was clueless about what goes on and relied yet again on ignorance and that 'it'll all work out, somehow". This girl was scared to death to have a c-section, yet accepted substandard pre natal care for herself and her child. Perhaps proper monitoring of her pregnancy could have avoided a C-section in the end. A proper professional would have noticed the sheer size of Giddyup AND Joy's pelvic spread and determined it would have been safer for both of them to deliver him induced a bit early.

Such ignorance prevails. I'm sorry for these kidults who weren't given good information about life in general by their parents. Yet, these kidults, deemed 'mature' enough to marry remain clueless about the real world and how it really works. Not so scary and evil after all...how many times did properly trained medical professionals save the Duggar daughters' hides AND Michelle with her numerous pregnancies?

  • Love 10
sleepysuzy

sleepysuzy

1 minute ago, floridamom said:

I had the same question, riverblue22. What are the credentials of the midwife with Joy and Austin? They didn't address that in the clip. I found Joy to be quite unprepared to have a baby at this time in her life. She simply was clueless about what goes on and relied yet again on ignorance and that 'it'll all work out, somehow". This girl was scared to death to have a c-section, yet accepted substandard pre natal care for herself and her child. Perhaps proper monitoring of her pregnancy could have avoided a C-section in the end. A proper professional would have noticed the sheer size of Giddyup AND Joy's pelvic spread and determined it would have been safer for both of them to deliver him induced a bit early.

Such ignorance prevails. I'm sorry for these kidults who weren't given good information about life in general by their parents. Yet, these kidults, deemed 'mature' enough to marry remain clueless about the real world and how it really works. Not so scary and evil after all...how many times did properly trained medical professionals save the Duggar daughters' hides AND Michelle with her numerous pregnancies?

The size of a baby is NOT a good reason to induce early delivery. ACOG is pretty clear on that. Also, there is no exam that can determine is a woman's pelvic structure allows for delivery. I delivered an 11 lb baby naturally, and I have a small/average build. If anything, she would have benefited from prenatal exercises to help with positioning the baby, and had the option of an external cephalic version before going into labor.

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doodlebug

doodlebug

(edited)
3 hours ago, sleepysuzy said:

The size of a baby is NOT a good reason to induce early delivery. ACOG is pretty clear on that. Also, there is no exam that can determine is a woman's pelvic structure allows for delivery. I delivered an 11 lb baby naturally, and I have a small/average build. If anything, she would have benefited from prenatal exercises to help with positioning the baby, and had the option of an external cephalic version before going into labor.

Yep, inducing labor because a baby might be larger than average was abandoned decades ago after research demonstrated that inducing labor with a big baby was MORE likely to result in a cesarean and other complications than just waiting.  However, perhaps Joy could've been screened for gestational diabetes, treated for it if she had it and, if nothing else, educated as to the risks of delivering a large baby including the higher risk of prolonged labor, cesarean sections, injuries to mother and/or baby, hemorrhage, etc.  The fact that the baby was large, as well as breech, would've lead a capable provider to recommend a primary cesarean prior to labor to prevent these things.  

As noted above, determining pelvic capacity on exam is pretty hard to do and doesn't seem to help much in predicting who will need a cesarean.  In my 35+ years examining thousands of pregnant women, I've maybe found a dozen women whose pelvises were clearly extraordinarily small.  One of my partners, a conservative, very nervous doc, tells at least half of her patients that their pelvis is unusually small and they're more likely to have a cesarean.  I personally think it becomes kind of a self fulfilling prophecy in that situation and both the mother and the caregiver's decision making is colored by the information despite how irrelevant it is.

Edited by doodlebug
  • Love 15
sixlets

sixlets

This entire family likes to show up places unannounced, so (to them), why would a trip to the ER to birth a youngin' be any different?  If they keep this up, one of them is not going to have a successful ending.  And it has nothing to do with Jesus or praying.  It will be based on science and statistics, neither of which the Duggs understand or accept.  Medical professionals have stepped in time and again to save baby and mom, but not every baby and/or mom can be saved.

I still do not trust Austin.  He has shown us time and time again he has the personality of a flea (my sincere apologies to fleas).  He shows very little genuine emotion, at least on camera.  I have a sneaking suspicion his anger comes out a hell of a lot easier.  I think Joy & Austin will be the couple that follows the Pearls the most.  He kinda seems like he has the attitude of children should be seen and not heard.  There just seems to be some hidden anger right underneath the surface.  I don't get a physically abusive vibe from him (like I do with Derick), but I do see emotional or verbal abuse as a possibility.  Something that can't be seen but definitely felt by Joy.

  • Love 15
mythoughtis

mythoughtis

(edited)
10 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Yep, inducing labor because a baby might be larger than average was abandoned decades ago after research demonstrated that inducing labor with a big baby was MORE likely to result in a cesarean and other complications than just waiting.  However, perhaps Joy could've been screened for gestational diabetes, treated for it if she had it and, if nothing else, educated as to the risks of delivering a large baby including the higher risk of prolonged labor, cesarean sections, injuries to mother and/or baby, hemorrhage, etc.  The fact that the baby was large, as well as breech, would've lead a capable provider to recommend a primary cesarean prior to labor to prevent these things.  

As noted above, determining pelvic capacity on exam is pretty hard to do and doesn't seem to help much in predicting who will need a cesarean.  In my 35+ years examining thousands of pregnant women, I've maybe found a dozen women whose pelvises were clearly extraordinarily small.  One of my partners, a conservative, very nervous doc, tells at least half of her patients that their pelvis is unusually small and they're more likely to have a cesarean.  I personally think it becomes kind of a self fulfilling prophecy in that situation and both the mother and the caregiver's decision making is colored by the information despite how irrelevant it is.

 

My labor for baby number 2 was induced and I think it was due to the size of the baby - and the size of my spouses head.  The doctor saw me and him at my weekly check up the day before the due date and sent me for inducement later that day. Whatever shot I was given ‘ to relax me’ later in labor didn’t help the situation as I had absolutely no desire or inclination to push as a result. 

My son was 9 lbs, turned sunny side up, had a big head circumfrence, seemingly stuck and forceps were used because it was ‘too late’ to do a Cesarean.  

There is a reason why I would never be like the Duggars and give birth at home.  

Edited by mythoughtis
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Sew Sumi

Sew Sumi

(edited)
52 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

Do we know if JoyAnna sought prenatal care? I hate to think they were just "winging" it.

In the previews, I believe there was a shot of the Forsyths getting into a car with a voice over saying they were going to see the midwife. NOW, I hope they give her name so I can check her against the records of lay midwives in Arkansas. Even her first name will do; there are that few to check.

Edited by Sew Sumi
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