Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I think he's too lazy to divorce her, even once he gets out. He basically has a free domestic slave with her. Who would clean up his cracker crumbs for him? 

I agree. Even if prison changes him for the better and he has a true, err, "come to Jesus moment" (if there isn't a secular version of that phrase, someone needs to come up with one), his options as a convicted felon and registered sex offender will be limited. He's likely going to stick to the path that keeps him housed and fed no matter what he might actually want.

[Ljohnson1987]

Anna's birthday post to him did not age well. She won't be spending any time with him, as long as there are minors in the home. 

[SusanM]

2 minutes ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

Anna's birthday post to him did not age well. She won't be spending any time with him, as long as there are minors in the home. 

The only bright spot in all this is that the Smuggars are not likely to have more children.  Somehow I think Josh is ok with that.  Anna, even now, not so much.

[ginger90]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I think he's too lazy to divorce her, even once he gets out. He basically has a free domestic slave with her. Who would clean up his cracker crumbs for him? 

She’s busy sweeping them under the rug. 🧹 

[Gemma Violet]

1 hour ago, SusanM said:

 if something happens in prison to change him.  

Or maybe some lonely female prison guard will fall for him, tells him she'll wait for him, and persuades him to divorce Anna.  J/K.  But seriously, as much as we find Josh repulsive, some desperate lonely woman guard could fall for his slick-talking demeanor and, like Anna, think he has been wrongly convicted.  And of course, he'll egg her on so that she'll smuggle him treats and goodies. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Gemma Violet

[ozziemom]

Or maybe FF will become prison pen pals with someone who “understands” him.

[Scarlett45]

On 5/30/2022 at 12:02 PM, Gemma Violet said:

Or maybe some lonely female prison guard will fall for him, tells him she'll wait for him, and persuades him to divorce Anna.  J/K.  But seriously, as much as we find Josh repulsive, some desperate lonely woman guard could fall for his slick-talking demeanor and, like Anna, think he has been wrongly convicted.  And of course, he'll egg her on so that she'll smuggle him treats and goodies. 

On 5/30/2022 at 12:18 PM, ozziemom said:

Or maybe FF will become prison pen pals with someone who “understands” him.

I think @ozziemom’s prediction is more likely. Of course anything is possible, but women that work in correctional facilities have seen EVERYTHING and are tough as nails. Josh is not that slick or smart, I doubt they will pay him two ounces of attention. 

[SusanM]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Josh is not that slick or smart,

This has been his downfall from the get go.  Within his limited circle maybe he is as slick and smart as he thinks he is but the minute he interacts with those outside the Duggar control he fails.  I think most ordinary people look at that begging to be slapped face and see him for what he is.  While he thinks he's the master manipulator.  Prison is going to smarten him up once and for all.  Well, at least I think it will. 

[Albanyguy]

2 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Or maybe some lonely female prison guard will fall for him, tells him she'll wait for him, and persuades him to divorce Anna.  J/K. 

Or, better yet, she'll help him escape and they'll go on the lam together until they go out in a blaze of glory, dying side by side in a hail of bullets.

[emmawoodhouse]

50 minutes ago, SusanM said:

This has been his downfall from the get go.  Within his limited circle maybe he is as slick and smart as he thinks he is but the minute he interacts with those outside the Duggar control he fails.  I think most ordinary people look at that begging to be slapped face and see him for what he is.  While he thinks he's the master manipulator.  Prison is going to smarten him up once and for all.  Well, at least I think it will. 

I don't know if prison will smarten him up, but it will certainly change him. More than likely not for the better.

[SusanM]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I don't know if prison will smarten him up, but it will certainly change him. More than likely not for the better.

Agreed.  He thinks he's slick and smart and he's about to enter a prison system populated by others who also think they're slick and smart.  Some of them actually are.  He is either going to be humbled or he's going to learn from those who really do know how to play the game and win (well mostly win - they are in prison themselves after all!!).  Either way the Josh Smuggar who goes into the federal prison system won't be the same one who walks out - hopefully at least 12 full years from now.

[lookeyloo]

1 hour ago, Albanyguy said:

Or, better yet, she'll help him escape and they'll go on the lam together until they go out in a blaze of glory, dying side by side in a hail of bullets.

And that exact scenario happened in real life recently, and it did not end well for them!!

[sagittarius sue]

3 hours ago, ozziemom said:

Or maybe FF will become prison pen pals with someone who “understands” him.

Of course one wonders if FF can work up the energy to maintain a correspondence.

[satrunrose]

I don't think this will actually happen, but if Josh were to have an anti-come-to-Jesus moment in prison and quit fundyism, would Anna follow along 'cause headship or would having an apostate husband be the last straw?

For the record, I think FF's one talent is knowing which side his bread is buttered on so it'l never happen, but it's interesting to speculate. 

[CalicoKitty]

He is an accomplished schmoozer.  It will be interesting to see how that works out for him.  He will either be "saving" the prisoners, or hiding as much as he can.

[GeeGolly]

Josh would be hard pressed to find a real world job when he gets out, so I think his options are limited. Personally I don't think he'll divorce Anna or his parents. I think he fall back into place, but with a lot of difficulties at first. He will be different, Anna will be different, the kids will be strangers, JB & M will be different and the world as he knows it will be different.

FF deserves all the struggles he's going to experience in prison and all the struggles he experiences when he gets out.

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

He is an accomplished schmoozer.  It will be interesting to see how that works out for him.  He will either be "saving" the prisoners, or hiding as much as he can.

He THINKS he's an accomplished schmoozer.   he is not really.   Just look at his police interview.   He thought he was being so smart and smooth.   WHat he WAS doing was pretty much confessing.   I mean is ANYONE outside the family actually impressed by him?   

He;s like those pick up artist guys who think they have such great lines to get women to fall instantly in love.   But what actually happens is a woman hears the line and dies laughing.   Same thing with Josh.   he thinks he has to the perfect comeback to everything and inwardly the other person is going "what a freaking idiot."

Edited May 30, 2022 by merylinkid

[CandaceG]

9 hours ago, SusanM said:

The only bright spot in all this is that the Smuggars are not likely to have more children.  Somehow I think Josh is ok with that.  Anna, even now, not so much.

I wonder if Anna is as upset about her quiver being done as she is about Josh going to prison. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by CandaceG

[emmawoodhouse]

19 minutes ago, CandaceG said:

I wonder if Anna is as upset about her quiver being done as she is about Josh going to prison. 

It's probably 50/50. She doesn't have her HUSBAND to parade around with as she desperately clings to his arm. And because in their world, a woman's worth is measured by the size of her litter, her inability to have more kids must burn. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[sixlets]

...
My heart aches for the M&Ms.  With the exception of Maryella and Madyson, the kids will have some recollection and memories of Josh.  To have your dad there one day, and gone the next, with little to no explanation, is horrible.  To lose a parent to illness or accident is tragic.  But kids are resilient when it comes to their resolve, and with time and proper care, they can find a new normal.  Josh did this to himself.  He took himself away from his home and out of his children's lives.  You cannot explain it away.  And kids have the innate ability to make everything their own fault.  So, congrats Jim Bob & Michelle.  You did such a great job with your children that now your grandchildren will spend their entire childhood blaming themselves for 'daddy leaving'.  All because you didn't take the correct action, at the time, to get him the help he, and the girls, clearly needed.  You not only ruined the lives  of your other 18 children, you took 7 more innocent kids along for the ride.  If there is a hell, there's a special place for the two of you in it.  And, I hope it's on a blanket.

Edited May 31, 2022 by sixlets

[YupItsMe]

Their oldest boy always had such a pained expression on his face and false smile in photos. I hope that in time, with Josh gone, maybe he can find a genuine, happiness.

[quarks]

It might not be one of her chief concerns now, but I think the not having more kids is going to hit Anna hard in a few years. Having a large family with more on the way was something she obviously took a lot of pride in, along with having more children than most of her siblings and all of the other Duggarlings.

In ten years, that's unlikely to still be true.

[CrazyInAlabama]

19 hours ago, SusanM said:

Agreed.  He thinks he's slick and smart and he's about to enter a prison system populated by others who also think they're slick and smart.  Some of them actually are.  He is either going to be humbled or he's going to learn from those who really do know how to play the game and win (well mostly win - they are in prison themselves after all!!).  Either way the Josh Smuggar who goes into the federal prison system won't be the same one who walks out - hopefully at least 12 full years from now.

The usual amount of time is 85% of a sentence.     Of course that can be altered by prisoner behavior too, so probably just over 10 years will be his actual time in prison.   However, he also has to pay the restitution, which of course will be JB paying it.   

I thought he had about $50k in fines to pay?   So, I guess not restitution.  

Edited May 31, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[Cinnabon]

14 hours ago, SusanM said:

This has been his downfall from the get go.  Within his limited circle maybe he is as slick and smart as he thinks he is but the minute he interacts with those outside the Duggar control he fails.  I think most ordinary people look at that begging to be slapped face and see him for what he is.  While he thinks he's the master manipulator.  

See also - Jessa Seewald.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Cinnabon

[ginger90]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

The usual amount of time is 85% of a sentence.     Of course that can be altered by prisoner behavior too, so probably just over 10 years will be his actual time in prison.   However, he also has to pay the restitution, which of course will be JB paying it.   

Just want it to be clear, he has not been ordered to pay restitution.

[Tikichick]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:22 AM, GeeGolly said:

Even if Anna had some money in her name it wouldn't last very long in supporting 7 kids. She would need a steady income, from say, a few rentals, to even think of being able to support her family.

The only way I see Anna moving off the compound is if it was a JB sanctioned move to have her closer to Josh. I also see that as her best chance of seeing the truth, so it likely won't happen.

I can't even begin to imagine supporting seven children, with a hardworking diligent spouse, let alone solo.

I've wondered if they, I guess JB particularly, actually want Anna to accept the truth?  I guess there's the potential that if she had done so she would have truly kept an eye on him and prevented his arrest in the first place -- actually the Ashley Madison mess, too.   I can totally see JB & M taking the stance that it was Anna's job to be vigilant and if necessary report anything to JB that she couldn't put a stop to herself, making the consequences ultimately her fault.  

I'm not suggesting that attitude is correct, merely a possibility I could see them adopting in order to absolve themselves from any hint of responsibility for the way their son has behaved repeatedly over many years.   Anna's staunch commitment to her marriage has withstood at least three increasingly devastating public bombshells.   JB may bank on that commitment being unshakeable and decide it's in everyone's best interest for Anna to at least be defending her marriage from the perspective of the reality of who and what Josh is. 

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I can't even begin to imagine supporting seven children, with a hardworking diligent spouse, let alone solo.

I've wondered if they, I guess JB particularly, actually want Anna to accept the truth?  I guess there's the potential that if she had done so she would have truly kept an eye on him and prevented his arrest in the first place -- actually the Ashley Madison mess, too.   I can totally see JB & M taking the stance that it was Anna's job to be vigilant and if necessary report anything to JB that she couldn't put a stop to herself, making the consequences ultimately her fault.  

I'm not suggesting that attitude is correct, merely a possibility I could see them adopting in order to absolve themselves from any hint of responsibility for the way their son has behaved repeatedly over many years.   Anna's staunch commitment to her marriage has withstood at least three increasingly devastating public bombshells.   JB may bank on that commitment being unshakeable and decide it's in everyone's best interest for Anna to at least be defending her marriage from the perspective of the reality of who and what Josh is. 

I know Gothard teaches 'blame the victim' and society does too, but I doubt JB, M or anyone else is piling on and blaming Anna. Anna however might have felt some guilt with the Ashley Madison scandal, just as many wives in a similar situation at least self reflect to see 'if they could have done more'.

At this point Anna is standing firmly behind Josh's innocence, so I doubt JB is trying to influence her at this point. Who knows what the future will bring, but if any changes happen, my guess is they'll be a year or two out.

[Tikichick]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:33 PM, all fall down said:

I found the text of the Alice letters a while ago online so I saved them. Text posted under the spoiler due to length. It's wild that this info has all been around since 2007, nearly a decade before it all came out publically. Like a lot of us here, I definitely remember hearing the rumors, so when it all came out I was not surprised.

I bolded the part where Alice claims to know the person who called Oprah. 

I agree Deana and Amy had to know something, they must have at least heard the rumors. I can believe that they didn't know the specifics of the "touching" because that didn't really come out until the police report. Either they got their information from JB who we know downplayed it, or they were willingly ignorant, but they had to know something was going on. 

  Hide contents

“The Alice letters Here's the full text:

Alice Says: May 22nd, 2007 at 7:03 pm

To Ruth, Let me tell you something about the precious Duggars that you don’t know. First, Michelle hasn’t bathed her younger children in years. It is all left up to the older children. They have children that have never seen the inside of a grocery store. Everything that you have seen on TV is staged. Big Time. Michelle hasn’t cooked a meal in years. Hasn’t cleaned house in years. All she does is try to look norman for the TV camera’s. Get real. This couple is out for the fame and money that they can get. They receive “Love Offering” from all over the country. They have church services in their home when it is to their advantage. They get paid for that. He and his mother “Mary” has this all figured out. She is fame hungry and she couldn’t manage this for herself and now she is helping out Jim Bob and Michelle. She calls different TV shows and exploits her grandchildren. This is the Duggar’s way of making a living and providing for the huge family. Fame and Fortune In January, the whole family went to Chicago and taped Oprah Winfrey show. Oprah wined and dined them for one week. You know that had to cost some pretty pennies. As you may have noticed, that show never aired and it never will. Oprah was informed that Josh, the oldest son, had been molesting his sisters. Yes, this is the truth. Oprah turned them over to the Arkansas State Police Child Protection Agency and the Washington County Child Protection Agency. They have been investigated to some length. Jim Bob Duggar told the producers of the show that he built a small church out back for his followers. HIS FOLLOWERS. GET REAL. THE MAN IS A FRAUD. In April, they were in court with their story. They have to report to Arkansas Department of Human Services every six months.. They have lied and lied about their son to protect him at their daughters expense. For some unknown reason the boy is still in the home with the girls. God only know if this is still going on. In my eyes he is a CHILD MOLESTOR. HE SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE HOME. What kind of parents cover up for one child and hurt the others. I do not believe that this is what God has in mind for them. Frauding the American people and taking their money and living off of it. They did not build their home by themselves. They hired it done. The Discovery Health Channel and the TLC channel wrote them a check for over $200,000. for the to build the house. Everything inside the house was given to them except the kitchen. They did buy that themselves. The rest is all free. Mary and Josh was on the phone day and night asking for donations from soup to Computers. They also received a Baby Grand Piano from Campbell Soup Co. The trip to California was also provided by the TV Stations. It was mapped out. Mile for Mile. They did not spend a penny of their money. All the groceries and gas and lodging and clothing was paid for in advance. For someone who wants to be famous, why lie about the facts. Seems funny to me. They are professional liers, both of them.. They twist their words to make them look good and and look like devoted parents and a great big happy family. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you don’t believe me, contact the Arkansas State Police Child Protection Agency in Bentonville, Ar. and the Washington County Child Protection Agency in Fayetteville. It will be worth the time and effort to read all about it. There is a lot more that I could go into but I simply do not have that much time. I think that is time the the Duggar’s are stopped. They are pimping out their family for material things to keep them fed and clothed. If they cannot feed and clothe their children, don’t have them.

Alice Says: May 24th, 2007 at 3:05 pm

People, trust me or not. I know this for a fact. God’s honest truth that the molestation happened. It happened to four of his 5 sisters. The oldest daughter was not touched. The second daughter is the one who caught him doing this. There was no rape involved, but molested. I could go into detail, but I won’t. Of course, you can find nothing about the charges. The Duggar’s want to keep this hid. Wouldn’t you? They wouldn’t have the things that they do if it had gotten out earlier. That’s the way that they make their living and travel at the expenses of others. Jim Bob and Michelle are very aware of this happening and have chosen to protect Josh over his sisters. The family is to report to DHS every six months and that the girls are in counciling. This is what the courts ordered. Jim Bob and Michelle both tried to lie their way out of this, but it didn’t happen. Just ask them, but they will just lie about it. They call their son “Precious Josh” and in their eyes he can do nothing wrong. What about the girls? I think that everyone should know about this problem and that the Duggars are frauds. They make the Talk Shows under the impression that they are pure and they receive “Love Offerings” from the viewers. He has got it figured out. How to be famous and make a living for his brood and not have to work to get it.

Alice Says: May 25th, 2007 at 4:05 pm

Well Robert, like you I was always very supportive of the Duggars. I’ve been in their home. I’ve even gone to church with them. Something just didn’t feel right. For some reason I didn’t trust Jim Bob. Then the truth came out about his son. He is the one that told what happened. Josh got up in front of the church and ask for forgiveness and all that stuff, but he was secretly still up to no good. I really don’t know how long it had been going on before it came out, but even after it did Josh pretented to be this sweet all American boy who loved his family. All the time he was going on Prono sites on the internet and watching all the filth that it has. The temptation was too much and he explored with his sisters. I know the person that contacted Oprah and told her that the family is not as pure as they seem. They were taking Oprah, the Discovery Health Channel, TLC Channel and everyone else that they have appeared on for a big ride. They receive money for each show, and if not money they get something out of it. Jim Bob has made the statement that is the way that he has to provide for his family. Don’t you think that is being a fraud? If not, please explain what is the difference. They know that when they go on the shows that they lie and the more the exposure they have the more money that comes in to him. It was Oprah’s decision the turn them over the the authorties. Oprah is not the only one that has turned them in for child abuse. Of course you can’t find any records on this. It is all sealed behind closed doors. The truth needs to be told and I have made it my mission to stop this from happening. They are frauds and living off of the good graces of other people. I’ve watch them on the Montel Williams show and I wanted to throw up. It made me sick inside to know what I know and to watch them get in front of a TV camera and lie.

Alice Says: May 26th, 2007 at 3:12 pm

The Duggars do annoy me more than other quiver full families. Probably because they are pimping their lifestyle on TV for money and publicity. It bugs me. I admit it fully. Especially when you throw in their tax-exempt status. (I really do need to start worshiping Mighty Mouse and form my own home-based church so I too, can enjoy this little benefit) It just sickens me. They pimp themselves to a world that they don’t even approve of. How much more hypocritical can someone get?

I don’t have a problem with the stereotypical gender roles that they adhere to. I don’t even have a problem with the Little House on the Prairie wardrobe. I have a problem with a group of hypocrites who are pimping themselves on national TV…not only for the money because it is individual people’s choice to watch the show or not, and if people don’t want to watch, then they wouldn’t be on, but also the whole political aspirations of Jim Bob being furthered by this. So, it’s okay to appeal to the outside world of which they don’t approve, as long as it furthers their crazy aspirations? Either stick to the lifestyle and live it, or admit that they are a bunch of hypocrites. Other quiver full families don’t attempt to mainstream themselves. They know it’s their personal choice, don’t seek public approval, and just continue on.

And I really have a problem with children raising children and taking care of the household, while mom sits on her tush cranking out the next one. I get no impression that Michelle is a hands on mother after those children hit 3mos. old. Once they hit that age she hands them off and starts working on the next one. It’s sick. The human body wasn’t made to handle it either. She’ll be dead by the time she’s 50, and her uterus will be gone long before then. It isn’t healthy, nor something to aspire to.”

If what the letters say about Grandma Mary are at all true it would explain a lot about Amy's behavior.

Not so sure I can point much of a finger at Amy for not taking action based on what she knew all those years ago when the adults in the situation, including mom, Grandma, Aunt and Uncle didn't do so.  Somehow it doesn't seem quite fair to expect someone of Amy's age at the time to come forward. 

[quarks]

4 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Just want it to be clear, he has not been ordered to pay restitution.

The sentencing order does list a number of fines and assessments though:

1. A $10,000 fine

2. A special assessment of $100

3. An additional special assessment of $5000

4. And a third special assessment of $35,000.

The sentencing order says the last three have to be paid immediately. He has some time to pay the $10,000 fine. 

Adding in the legal bills, this is quite a financial hit - one reason I'm guessing Anna will be staying in that warehouse for at least a couple of years. 

[ginger90]

53 minutes ago, quarks said:

The sentencing order does list a number of fines and assessments though:

Yes, but not “restitution “. That’s what I wanted to clarify. 😁

[quarks]

34 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Yes, but not “restitution “. That’s what I wanted to clarify. 😁

I'm just kinda gleeful that he has to spend still more money.

Which is not fair to the M kids, who could certainly use that money, but I'm still kinda gleeful.

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

If what the letters say about Grandma Mary are at all true it would explain a lot about Amy's behavior.

Not so sure I can point much of a finger at Amy for not taking action based on what she knew all those years ago when the adults in the situation, including mom, Grandma, Aunt and Uncle didn't do so.  Somehow it doesn't seem quite fair to expect someone of Amy's age at the time to come forward. 

I agree and that's what her answer should have been - I was young. But she couldn't very well say that because her mom didn't do anything about it, so hence the "we didn't know" lies.

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree and that's what her answer should have been - I was young. But she couldn't very well say that because her mom didn't do anything about it, so hence the "we didn't know" lies.

Really shines a light on many of the struggles families in this type of situation go through and how many different reasons there might be to stay silent and act as if the dysfunction and abuse don't exist/didn't happen.

JB & M - fear for reputation/income, don't want to jeopardize son, don't want to risk authorities stepping in regarding other children. 

Grandma Mary - fear for reputation/income of self & son, don't want to risk tearing apart son's family.

Aunt - don't want to hurt/anger mom and brother, afraid of potentially losing support of mom and brother, believe brother and sister in law are genuinely handling situation properly themselves?

Amy - young and likely confused and possibly didn't have much accurate detail initially, may have been instructed by adults to keep her mouth shut or risk opening up financial consequences or possibly some type of emotional threat about casting herself and her mother out.

Siblings - fear of what could happen and possibly upend life as they knew it, shame, guilt, etc.

Change and unknown are common fears for a lot of people.  This type of situation in a family heightens those types of fears.  Sadly a lot of the family responses in this case line up with what happens in a lot of families facing this type of trauma, prolonging and multiplying the tragedy.     

[Tikichick]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:54 AM, SusanM said:

I could see Josh divorcing Anna, or at least not moving back in to share a life with her, if something happens in prison to change him.  What I could see potentially is him finally making a break from the fundie life once and for all.  He isn't cut out for it - well other than the "bow down before the man in your life" aspect of it anyway.

You mean precisely what a huge portion of the "faithful" consider the best part of it?

[Tabbygirl521]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:27 AM, GeeGolly said:

Anna's Fundiness certainly impacts her ability to leave, but mainstream folks go through similar situations all the time. Its almost never just one thing, but more likely a combination of a few things. They include love, socioeconomic status , self-esteem, faith, (co)dependency, health (physical & mental) supports, age...

Then there's the many reasons Anna needs to believe FF is innocent.

If Anna believes Josh is innocent, then nothing above matters. She would have no reason to think of leaving him. She has to get past step 1 before she can even think of step 2.

Even if she thinks he’s guilty , she’s been taught that she must forgive. I think she’s stuck no matter what, unless she leaves the cult altogether. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Tabbygirl521

[cmr2014]

I've been having a lot of conversations regarding American history recently, and there is a phrase in the Declaration of Independence that is a bedrock belief of most Americans:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

We tend to think of this as being obvious, but it was radical in it's time and, even today, there are many people who don't believe this -- especially religious extremists.

If you were to recite this to one of the Duggars (or their fellow cultists), you would get a weepy, flag waving response. If you were to paraphrase it, you would get an angry reply that you're a "secular humanist" and hostile to honest, decent, God-loving people.

I don't think that Anna sees herself as an autonomous individual with the associated rights and responsibilities regarding for her own life. She is a pawn in "God's plan." Everything that happens in her world is pre-ordained and a "blessing" or a "test," but it's not of her own making; it's what "God has planned" for her.

She's secure in her belief that all she has to do is fulfill her role (wife and mother) and she will be taken care of -- if not by Josh, then by JB. If something happens to JB, then Jesus will take over. The idea that she's an autonomous human being with not just the right, but the responsibility, to take care of herself and her children isn't even a blip on her radar. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Josh earned his nickname Smuggar Duggar from the very first special they did back in 2004. I knew there was something off about him back then, but I couldn't have dreamed what he and his family were hiding. They had a lot of gall to proceed with those specials and the xKids series, pretending to be a righteous, wholesome family. 

[GeeGolly]

I think that with folks like Josh, their really isn't an answer to the question, why. Forensic scientists and criminologists have been studying this for decades and really have no concrete answers. Like @Ohiopirate02 said its an atypical combination of nature and nurture. A psychopathy checklist was developed in the 70s and its based mostly on personality and behaviors. But its really more of an 'after the fact' check list than a predictor because these aren't things one can see all at once because they develop over time.

I still think Josh would be Josh regardless of any punishments or treatments he had or didn't have during his youth. I also think would be some version of Josh regardless of who raised him. IMO, his environment may have steered him toward sexual deviancy, but another environment may have steered him toward serial killer.

Also, I'm fairly certain none of these horrific criminal behaviors run in families.

[Tuxcat]

Many disorders, illness, or even orientations now fall under the umbrella 'cause and effect' theory of epigenetics. Genes contain our individual blueprints but they must be turned on or off, expressed or not expressed. Environmental factors that are responsible for influencing the ons and offs. So one can have an underlying predisposition toward manifested"disordered" behavior, but unless those genes are all triggered correctly, the behavior never develops. 

Disclaimer - in no way am I saying that being bisexual, pansexual or homosexual is abnormal. It is NOT.  But there is a wealth of literature looking at pedophilic orientation or even repeat sex offenders through similar lenses. That is to say large studies have shown that some of these things do in fact run in families- and not necessarily families that were raised together.  From a 2015 study "Brothers and fathers of men convicted of sexual offenses are up to five times more likely to be convicted of sexual offenses than men in the general population." Statistical analysis looked at factors outside of genetics but even in cases where brothers were raised separately, there did appear to be some evidence of higher risk. There is not a single gene of course. Just as there is no "gay gene" but we know genetics plays a significant role in determining orientation.

With Josh, the genes were all lined up and then some things in his environment triggered the expression of these genes resulting in his problematic behavior. And I don't think we know enough about our environment to determine what could have or should have been done to help Josh. The only thing we can know for sure, is that the people in his circle should have been protected more. JB failed in that respect.

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

(Autocorrect inserted “futility” instead of “guilty” in my original post.)

Autocorrect has a sense of humor.

[Dimi1]

2 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I've been having a lot of conversations regarding American history recently, and there is a phrase in the Declaration of Independence that is a bedrock belief of most Americans:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

We tend to think of this as being obvious, but it was radical in it's time and, even today, there are many people who don't believe this -- especially religious extremists.

If you were to recite this to one of the Duggars (or their fellow cultists), you would get a weepy, flag waving response. If you were to paraphrase it, you would get an angry reply that you're a "secular humanist" and hostile to honest, decent, God-loving people.

I don't think that Anna sees herself as an autonomous individual with the associated rights and responsibilities regarding for her own life. She is a pawn in "God's plan." Everything that happens in her world is pre-ordained and a "blessing" or a "test," but it's not of her own making; it's what "God has planned" for her.

She's secure in her belief that all she has to do is fulfill her role (wife and mother) and she will be taken care of -- if not by Josh, then by JB. If something happens to JB, then Jesus will take over. The idea that she's an autonomous human being with not just the right, but the responsibility, to take care of herself and her children isn't even a blip on her radar. 

I am reading a fascinating book by James Wilder about how cults function in our society...its been eye opening but...one thing in common is the "family" mentality and the unmet needs of an individual...Anna never had a chance..she does not know any better really...her whole life is filtered through what she has been taught and experienced...

[FizzyPuff]

8 hours ago, quarks said:

The sentencing order does list a number of fines and assessments though:

1. A $10,000 fine

2. A special assessment of $100

3. An additional special assessment of $5000

4. And a third special assessment of $35,000.

The sentencing order says the last three have to be paid immediately. He has some time to pay the $10,000 fine. 

Adding in the legal bills, this is quite a financial hit - one reason I'm guessing Anna will be staying in that warehouse for at least a couple of years. 

Can anyone tell me what the fine is for? And what are these special assessments? How did they go from $100-$35,000 for a third one? 

[ginger90]

5 minutes ago, FizzyPuff said:

Can anyone tell me what the fine is for? And what are these special assessments? How did they go from $100-$35,000 for a third one? 

I don’t know what all of them are. I’m sure the information can be found somewhere.

The $5,000 goes to Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act. He could be paying fees for his electronic monitoring while awaiting trial.

[all fall down]

1 hour ago, FizzyPuff said:

Can anyone tell me what the fine is for? And what are these special assessments? How did they go from $100-$35,000 for a third one? 

There aren't too many details, but they are listed on page 6 of the Judgment: 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817.162.0_1.pdf

As noted, the $5000 is for the Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act. 

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I don’t know what all of them are. I’m sure the information can be found somewhere.

The $5,000 goes to Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act. He could be paying fees for his electronic monitoring while awaiting trial.

How did the judge determine that Josh would be able to pay these fees? Was he looking specifically at Josh’s personal finances?

[quarks]

3 hours ago, FizzyPuff said:

Can anyone tell me what the fine is for? And what are these special assessments? How did they go from $100-$35,000 for a third one? 

The fine is for breaking the law.  That could have been much worse - Josh was looking at possibly paying $100,000 or more here.

The special assessments sometimes cover specific legal/court costs, and are sometimes assessed because of the nature of the crime. 

53 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

How did the judge determine that Josh would be able to pay these fees? Was he looking specifically at Josh’s personal finances?

The defense and prosecution submitted a lot of material prior to sentencing, much of which remained sealed. I assume that financial documents were in the sealed material. 

[emmawoodhouse]

46 minutes ago, quarks said:

The fine is for breaking the law.  That could have been much worse - Josh was looking at possibly paying $100,000 or more here.

The special assessments sometimes cover specific legal/court costs, and are sometimes assessed because of the nature of the crime. 

The defense and prosecution submitted a lot of material prior to sentencing, much of which remained sealed. I assume that financial documents were in the sealed material. 

Would they have to submit tax returns? I'm really curious what Duggar returns look like, especially someone like Smuggar who had no visible sources of income. As if he made money from that shack on the side of a highway. Riiiight.🙄

Edited June 1, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Would they have to submit tax returns? I'm really curious what Duggar returns look like, especially someone like Smuggar who had no visible sources of income. As if he made money from that shack on the side of a highway. Riiiight.🙄

His overhead, besides inventory, was next to nothing, so I suppose all he would need to make beyond that is enough to pay himself.

[MMLEsq]

On 5/31/2022 at 5:00 AM, CrazyInAlabama said:

The usual amount of time is 85% of a sentence.     Of course that can be altered by prisoner behavior too, so probably just over 10 years will be his actual time in prison.   However, he also has to pay the restitution, which of course will be JB paying it.   

I thought he had about $50k in fines to pay?   So, I guess not restitution.  

He could also possibly be sent to a halfway house 6-12 months before serving 85%.

The only reason I could see Josh and Anna getting divorced, which I believe is highly unlikely to happen, at least in the near future, is to protect whatever assets they have left from potential civil suits by the victims in the CP he was viewing.

[Minivanessa]

13 hours ago, Dimi1 said:

I am reading a fascinating book by James Wilder about how cults function in our society...its been eye opening but...one thing in common is the "family" mentality and the unmet needs of an individual...Anna never had a chance..she does not know any better really...her whole life is filtered through what she has been taught and experienced...

Yes. Which IMO renders any discussion of her getting a job or applying for government benefits for the kids or putting the kids in any kind of school (certainly NEVER public school!) or getting counseling for herself or the kids from anyone outside her fundie circles, on the same level of reality as discussing whether the man in the moon is made of Parmesan cheese or Brie.

Anna lives 100% 24/7/365 in a fundie environment. She distrusts, hates, and fears the world outside her belief system. Which is reinforced every day by the people she interacts with. Yes, she has social media and the internet. Which is used to communicate with like-minded people, express her views, and consume content that reinforces and supports her views. She posted after the verdict that there's more to the story or some such nonsense. Nonsense to us, but not to her. 

IF her beliefs change, I don't see it happening any time soon. Not to mention, the people with power over her are strongly opposed to her changing her mind, much less her living conditions. If she wakes up one morning in 2029 and is just OVER it, does anybody believe that JB, or her father, or David Waller, or any other headship in her circles, would tolerate the idea of her changing her beliefs or or her address? I don't think they would tolerate it and I don't think they would allow it. (Yes, JB's angry slip of the tongue in court was an insight into his power as a headship aka domestic absolute ruler.) She'd be prayed over, threatened with hellfire and damnation, shamed, intimidated, manipulated, "counseled," and unless one of her out-of-the-cult siblings is aware of what she's going through and rides to the rescue, made to see that she's stuck where she is. Yes, two of her sibs no longer live the fundie life, but neither of them married into a strong fundie family with money and fame, and had seven kids by the Crown Prince of Disaster. 

I read I Fired God, a memoir by a woman who along with her husband finally broke out of the IFB world. They weren't in the IBLP/ATI circles but I believe the book provides insight into that. It's chilling, and it was a lesson to not underestimate the power of those cults and cult-like religions. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Jeeves