Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[MaryAnneSpier]

I remember that Mrs. Reber was trying to say, without actually saying it explicitly, that she wasn't comfortable with Josh coming to stay with her and her husband, but she follows what her headship says, so... We who are familiar with the fundy world and culture knew what she was saying: "If I were making the decisions for our family, Josh wouldn't be welcome in our home." I wonder how their relationship is with the Duggars now? And I wonder if Josh's arrest is what contributed to the falling out between JB and the Caldwells? So many ripple effects because of FF, and he's still too arrogant to even realize, let alone feel bad about any of it. 

[emmawoodhouse]

9 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

I remember that Mrs. Reber was trying to say, without actually saying it explicitly, that she wasn't comfortable with Josh coming to stay with her and her husband, but she follows what her headship says, so... We who are familiar with the fundy world and culture knew what she was saying: "If I were making the decisions for our family, Josh wouldn't be welcome in our home." I wonder how their relationship is with the Duggars now? And I wonder if Josh's arrest is what contributed to the falling out between JB and the Caldwells? So many ripple effects because of FF, and he's still too arrogant to even realize, let alone feel bad about any of it. 

I think the Duggars and Rebers are on fine terms. LeCount wrote a character letter for Smuggar. Hannah and her husband, Anna's brother David, were at the sentencing hearing. 

I don't think that the falling out between the Duggars and Caldwells had anything to do with Smuggar. It sounds like it was a schism in the church regarding covid protocols, among other things. The Duggars picked up their toys, as well as many fellow church members, and moved on to their next church. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[Scarlett45]

This is not the appropriate forum to discuss the social media posts of family members, of those who wrote letters in support of Josh. 
 

The forum guidelines are clear- you may discuss anything The Duggars post, please be considerate to others and blur out commenters names if they are in screenshots of social media posts, but reactions to the letters of support for Josh, by people that have never been on the show casts the net too far. 

Anything a part of the court record (outside of graphic content) is fair game. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Local reporter CC McCandless' narrative of Sentencing Day from inside the courtroom. He doesn't think much of Gelfand. 😂

TW for a brief comment from Judge Brooks. 

https://ccmcc.substack.com/p/sentencing-day?s=r

Edited May 29, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[all fall down]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Local reporter CC McCandless' narrative of Sentencing Day from inside the courtroom. He doesn't think much of Gelfand. 😂

TW for a brief comment from Judge Brooks. 

https://ccmcc.substack.com/p/sentencing-day?s=r

Nice article! 

He knows who Lord Daniel is, so I'd say this reporter is well versed in fundie snark. 😁

[emmawoodhouse]

9 minutes ago, all fall down said:

Nice article! 

He knows who Lord Daniel is, so I'd say this reporter is well versed in fundie snark. 😁

He's on the Reddit Duggar snark forum. 😀

[lookeyloo]

19 minutes ago, CherryBelly said:

Long time lurker, New poster.

That's my understanding. He cannot be forced to engage in treatment in prison but it can be enforced as part of his parole. 

They can force him to attend sessions and he will be skilled at saying what they want to hear, but, unless he goes maybe first under duress, but then decides to fully participate, he won't get out of it what they think.  

[DXD526]

McCandless gives a nice rundown of sentencing day. I like how his spell check kept insisting that he change 'Bobye'! 😄

[lookeyloo]

1 hour ago, CherryBelly said:

I will be very surprised if Anna is waiting for Josh when he's released.

Right now she's still in the eye of the storm and has been for this case, for over a year. She's still in the fight or flight stage and she's still been very controlled by Josh. Told what to think, that he's innocent and he *needs* her and she *needs* him to come home as she can't raise those kids without him. His prison 'phone records say he's in contact with her multiple times a day. She's only a few months post-partum, hormones and stress levels are high and she hasn't had time to breathe.

Once his appeals fail which they will, they all have to adjust to the new normal. Josh won't be able to call her as much, she'll do all she can to visit him and support him at first but that gets old really quick. 

Most long-term prisoners find visits, calls etc tail off to the point that most long-term inmates are lucky if they get visits around holidays. Calls, letters etc tail off because everyone inevitably get on with their lives. Many end up with no visits at all after 5 years.

First year or so there's lots of support but once things settle down, it all changes.

At that point, Anna will have time to actually think. And the sunken cost fallacy she has won't seem so present as all Josh will get from his other supporters will be an occasional prayer and letter. Because their own lives take over and Josh being in prison is just fact now.

He won't be a topic of conversation even if Anna wants him to be. 

Right now, there's a romance to it for Anna. She's the perfect wife standing by her man and loving and forgiving him like God would. Josh has told her he loves and needs her more than ever before. That'll wear off and she'll realise she's supposedly in a marriage with someone offering her nothing at all but who expects a lot of support from her. 

She'll be at Duggar gatherings with happy couples, weddings and repeated pregnancies and birth celebrations and it won't be "let's pray for Josh and Anna during this" anymore. It'll be oh there's Anna, how sad her life is.

Things will change I think.

He cannot be forced to in prison, it's voluntary. Outside, he'll have to attend and the workers are very skilled in knowing who's telling them what they think they want the worker to hear.

Yes I do know that. He may flunk out of their classes 

[BigBingerBro]

Let's pretend there are no covid restrictions.  What are the rules surrounding prison visitations?  Could Anna, bring all 7 kids to visit Daddy and Supreme Spiritual Leader?   Seems like that would be a huge strain on security of the prison on visitation days and something Anna would enjoy doing. (making the ebil heathens bend over backwards for her family)   

[quarks]

1 minute ago, BigBingerBro said:

Let's pretend there are no covid restrictions.  What are the rules surrounding prison visitations?  Could Anna, bring all 7 kids to visit Daddy and Supreme Spiritual Leader?   Seems like that would be a huge strain on security of the prison on visitation days and something Anna would enjoy doing. (making the ebil heathens bend over backwards for her family)   

The potential prisons appear to have pretty strict limits on just how many people can visit and for how long - max of two adults, two kids per visit, only so many hours per month, and so on.  Based on those limits, Anna will not be able to bring all seven kids along - they'll have to rotate visits.

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, CherryBelly said:

I will be very surprised if Anna is waiting for Josh when he's released.

I will be very surprised if she isn't.  In general, I think many women would've filed for divorce the moment they learned what their husband had done and never looked back.  But Anna is not like the 'typical' wife.  She was raised in a cult where her only purpose in life was to get married and have as many kids as possible while submtting to her husband's authority in everything.  She is used to having almost no personal autonomy.

Anna has 7 kids, no skills or job experience and is beholden to her father in law to keep them afloat while Josh is imprisoned.  JB is not going to be happy if she divorces Josh and it wouldn't be out of character if he showed his unhappiness by refusing to write anymore checks to support her and the kids.  In the past, Anna has had some siblings who did escape the cult.  One of them, her brother, offered to help her years ago when Josh was caught cheating on her.  If she didn't leave then, she won't leave now, IMO.

[Notabug]

3 minutes ago, CherryBelly said:

Those are guidelines not absolutes. Every institution knows it's in their best interests for inmates to have family visits and in terms of the human rights act; they open themselves to be sued if they are seen to be obstructing family ties.

I doubt any institution would make it difficult for Josh to see Anna and his children. They can adapt the guidelines for specific circumstances and they apply here 

They would not be obstructing family ties if, in order to keep inmates and visitors safe, they have to limit the number of visitors.  Anna can bring all of the kids to visit, just not all at once and not every time.  Allowing a single adult to be in charge of 7 children of varying ages inside a prison visitor's room is not safe for anyone.  There are guidelines that specifically state that the number of visitors at any one time can be restricted due to space limitations in the visitation room.  Josh will get at least 4 hours a month of visitation by law, but most prisons are willing to allow more than that, especially in circumstances where there are multiple family members wanting to come.  Besides, it's been kind of obvious to anyone that saw the show, that Josh was not exactly an enthusiastic, involved father; no matter what Anna claims.

There have been cases filed against prisons because kids were unable to visit freely, but, those were usually in the case where the prisoner had been the child's primary custodial parent with the other parent being out of the picture.  Some prisons were not allowing chidlren to visit with a non-related adult accompanying them and the child didn't have a relative on the outside to bring them. That's not going to be the situation here.  Anna can give her consent for any other Duggar family member to bring a kid or two with them anytime they come.   Certainly, I would expect that JB will visit, maybe even Michelle, and they could take a kid or two and then Anna could take 2 others when she would choose to visit

[Notabug]

1 minute ago, CherryBelly said:

It's 12 years. Things will change. What Anna is or does will likely be unrecognisable in 12 years.

I was on FreeJinger when posters were saying how sad it was that she wanted live in a big city and take 'photos and wear pants...and Jinger lives in LA, wears short shorts and mini dresses and fur stoles and is a coffee fan and eats sushi...

And we thought Jilly Muffin and her husband would stay close to Jim Bob and Meech and Derick is a lawyer, they've both spoken out against Jim Bob and use contraception and drink alcohol occasionally amongst other things.

Christine Brown from sister wives had posters for years saying how she'd never leave because she was brought up in their cult; was royalty in the cult as Grandchild of the prophet so totally brainwashed and could never leave as it was all she knew 

And she didn't just leave, she left and said her old church were irrelevant in her life now 

Jinger and Jill are very different people from Anna.  We've been watching Anna for about 15 year now and, while Jill and Jinger have changed a lot in that time, Anna hasn't.  I just don't think that Anna sees anything wrong with the choices she made or has any interest in making any changes to her life.  If she hasn't done it in the past 15, it doesn't seem likely to me that she will in the next 10, either.

[Rabbittron]

15 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Jinger and Jill are very different people from Anna.  We've been watching Anna for about 15 year now and, while Jill and Jinger have changed a lot in that time, Anna hasn't.  I just don't think that Anna sees anything wrong with the choices she made or has any interest in making any changes to her life.  If she hasn't done it in the past 15, it doesn't seem likely to me that she will in the next 10, either.

Anna will change when the court will throw down the red carpet forgive the golden child and admit that they were wrong and it was a  different Josh Duggar that they were looking for. 

[satrunrose]

There have been a few references in other Gothardites' social media that Anna is seen as a role model for Godly Young Women (tm). I've always inferred that means she got a certain amount of social status for standing by her man after scandals 1 and 2, instead of heading for the hills like any sensible heathen. There are also some hints that being a fundy sweetheart is more important to her than it is to her sister-in-laws like Jana, Abbie and Kendra. I think the fame she got and might still be getting from her community is enough to hold her for now. With Josh out of sight and mind for twelve years, that may change, though.

Edited May 29, 2022 by satrunrose

[iwantcookies]

21 hours ago, ALittleShelfish said:

I'd like to take a moment to rejoice in the subtle irony of a well-placed ad in a news article about FF.  

NIKE NIKE NIKE! 

Josh needs one haha 

[iwantcookies]

Anna is never going to leave Josh. Death do us apart applies to her. 
 

[LilJen]

On 5/26/2022 at 11:59 AM, Absolom said:

The federal system at least at one of the prisons the judge recommended allows in person visits, but it's no touching with a plexiglass divider between inmate and two visitors (possible third is a lap child).  The jail is still listing remote only visits. 

On 5/26/2022 at 2:31 PM, libgirl2 said:

Therapy might help him control these urges but I don't think they will ever go away. And I don't think he is going to do therapy anyway. 

3 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

They can force him to attend sessions and he will be skilled at saying what they want to hear, but, unless he goes maybe first under duress, but then decides to fully participate, he won't get out of it what they think.  

Agreed. Plenty of people are mandated to some kind of treatment, but many of them know exactly the right things to say and do…if he in fact has antisocial personality disorder (social worker here who used to spend lots of time in the DSM-V, and I would agree with that analysis but in my state I must have a psychiatrist sign off on that), there’s very little chance he will change or even take responsibility for what he has done.

[Ljohnson1987]

Of course Anna will wait for Josh. He's her protector, the head of the household. Blah, blah, blah. 

[lulu69]

50 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

There have been a few references in other Gothardites' social media that Anna is seen as a role model for Godly Young Women (tm). I've always inferred that means she got a certain amount of social status for standing by her man after scandals 1 and 2, instead of heading for the hills like any sensible heathen. There are also some hints that being a fundy sweetheart is more important to her than it is to her sister-in-laws like Jana, Abbie and Kendra. I think the fame she got and might still be getting from her community is enough to hold her for now. With Josh out of sight and mind for twelve years, that may change, though.

Since fundies believe satan is always busy trying to build fortresses in people's hearts it's not a stretch to think they may also believe  themselves to be continually tested by god. As I recall, the bible is full of such stories.

Anna may well see her situation as a direct test from god. 

No way is she going to fail her 'helpmeet test' and forfeit her bejeweled martyrs crown now.

[GeeGolly]

38 minutes ago, LilJen said:

Agreed. Plenty of people are mandated to some kind of treatment, but many of them know exactly the right things to say and do…if he in fact has antisocial personality disorder (social worker here who used to spend lots of time in the DSM-V, and I would agree with that analysis but in my state I must have a psychiatrist sign off on that), there’s very little chance he will change or even take responsibility for what he has done.

I'm so curious - I've never heard of an LICSW being restricted from diagnosing personality disorders. What state do you live in?

Josh may think he's saying the right thing, but a skilled therapist won't likely be fooled.

[Zella]

The problem with Anna leaving is it would require her to admit that she was wrong about Josh. I think she'd rather double-down and be miserable for eternity than admit she was wrong. (In a way, she reminds me a lot of Jessa on that point.)

I've never gotten over how right before he was arrested, after she knew about him molesting his sisters and the Ashley Madison scandal, that she posted some slobbering nonsense about what a wonderful husband and great provider he was. I think if she thought she could get away with it without being crucified by the internet at large, she'd continue to post about what a saint of a person he is. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Zella

[ginger90]

I looked to see if Anna has posted recently on her Instagram, she hasn’t.

How about this post for FF’s 33rd birthday, though? Ironic, creepy, I can’t find the correct word. 🤔 
 

[Chicklet]

3 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Ironic, creepy, I can’t find the correct word. 🤔 
 

Delusional is one word I'd use. I think she posted that to will this delusion into reality. Didn't work so well Anna.

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I looked to see if Anna has posted recently on her Instagram, she hasn’t.

How about this post for FF’s 33rd birthday, though? Ironic, creepy, I can’t find the correct word. 🤔 
 

Yeah my impression of Anna is that she was much madder about the scandals (both new and old) shutting her off from being on reality TV and her own weird little version of D-list fame than she was about what Josh actually did. 

[Notabug]

27 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm so curious - I've never heard of an LICSW being restricted from diagnosing personality disorders. What state do you live in?

Josh may think he's saying the right thing, but a skilled therapist won't likely be fooled.

But, even if Josh is sent to a program with a great therapist, what can he or she do if they don't feel Josh is sincere in his desire to change?  The judge requires him to attend, the therapists can perhaps report to the judge that he doesn't seem to really want to avoid re-offending, but, then what?  At some point, he's going to finish the program anyway and what value is there in forcing him to continue to atend therapy or other programs geared to preventing repeat offending if it isn't doing anything?

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, Notabug said:

At some point, he's going to finish the program anyway and what value is there in forcing him to continue to atend therapy or other programs geared to preventing repeat offending if it isn't doing anything?

My guess is it is less about what he will get out of it and more about keeping some form of monitoring over him. If they have suspicions he is reoffending, they'd be obligated to report it. 

[GeeGolly]

24 minutes ago, Notabug said:

But, even if Josh is sent to a program with a great therapist, what can he or she do if they don't feel Josh is sincere in his desire to change?  The judge requires him to attend, the therapists can perhaps report to the judge that he doesn't seem to really want to avoid re-offending, but, then what?  At some point, he's going to finish the program anyway and what value is there in forcing him to continue to atend therapy or other programs geared to preventing repeat offending if it isn't doing anything?

Its just part of the usual protocol and hoping it works for some. Just like with DCF requiring parenting classes or anger management classes - they're not pass or fail - they're a box to click, but with legitimate hopes the clients learn something.

My post was a response to a post stating Josh "can just say all the right things". Mandated therapy (or any therapy) isn't pass or fail, but it doesn't mean you just let the client slide.  A therapist can challenge Josh in many ways in one to one therapy and group therapy. In group therapy the therapist can also encourage his peers to challenge him. Mandated therapy usually requires a report, a skilled therapist will not include "the right things" a client says if they're insincere, so at least an accurate picture is documented. But anyway, my point was, Josh may say all the right things in real life, but in therapy its not going to work.

[GeeGolly]

48 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I looked to see if Anna has posted recently on her Instagram, she hasn’t.

How about this post for FF’s 33rd birthday, though? Ironic, creepy, I can’t find the correct word. 🤔 
 

Well, my guess is Anna is not looking forward to what the next 12 years have in store for them.

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

Well, my guess is Anna is not looking forward to what the next 12 years have in store for them.

The 20 after that won't be so hot, either. That pretty much takes care of her "next 33 years." 

[Rabbittron]

But we are looking forward to the next 33 years. 

[DXD526]

"Looking forward to what the next 33 years have in store for us!"

Yikes. The proverbial statement that ages like milk.

[ginger90]

2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

The 20 after that won't be so hot, either. That pretty much takes care of her "next 33 years." 

Exactly what I was thinking when I saw it. 

[EmeraldGirl]

I’m wondering if Jim Bob might set Anna up with another hand-picked fundy husband? I’m sure he can find some chump willing to take on a family … and pay for them. 

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, EmeraldGirl said:

I’m wondering if Jim Bob might set Anna up with another hand-picked fundy husband? I’m sure he can find some chump willing to take on a family … and pay for them. 

They are so anti-divorce I don't see JB, Anna, or the potential husband signing off on this. Anna also loses her longsuffering wife martyr card if she divorces Josh, and they'd probably treat her like a jezebel if she did that in order to marry another man. 

[GeeGolly]

I think Anna will divorce Josh when I believe there's little men in hell with microphones.

[sixlets]

My sincerest condolences to the poor therapist that will have to deal with Josh.  

[emmawoodhouse]

41 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think Anna will divorce Josh when I believe there's little men in hell with microphones.

But he could divorce her...

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

But he could divorce her...

This is true, but I think if he was going to divorce her, he would have done it already. 

If we're taking bets, though, mine would be he would file long before her. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Zella

[emmawoodhouse]

I think he'll stick with her until his appeal fails. He won't need the loving little woman after that. 

[iwantcookies]

7 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I looked to see if Anna has posted recently on her Instagram, she hasn’t.

How about this post for FF’s 33rd birthday, though? Ironic, creepy, I can’t find the correct word. 🤔 
 

Prison and living off JBs charity? 

[merylinkid]

Why would Josh divorce her?   At least while he's in prison.    Its not like he has to sleep with her or be around the kids.   So being a husband right now takes zero effort on his part.  But divorcing her would require some effort.   It can be done from prison but it takes some work.   Like getting a lawyer.   He would reach out to Dad for help on that who would say "Hell no, I'm grifting on claiming your poor wife and kids as dependents while you are inside and asking for love offerings to help them while you go through your fight with Satan, do NOT mess this up.   If you insist, no more commisary money."   And Josh will drop the whole thing.

These folks aren't divorcing.   If something major like what Josh was convicted of didn't do it, nothing will.

[Panopticon]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

Why would Josh divorce her?   At least while he's in prison.    Its not like he has to sleep with her or be around the kids.   So being a husband right now takes zero effort on his part.  

Maybe he wants to be selfless and do what’s best for Anna and his children by not tying them to…

Lol, just kidding. What Merylinkid said is exactly right. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Panopticon
Missing word

[Lisa418722]

I don't think Josh will divorce Anna while he is in prison.  Staying married is a way he can still control her.  Once he is out, I believe he will divorce her at that point because he will be used to not having to deal with her 24/7 and he won't want to deal with her when he gets his "freedom"  (whatever freedom he thinks he will have).  

Edited May 30, 2022 by Lisa418722

[Zella]

32 minutes ago, Lisa418722 said:

I don't think Josh will divorce Anna while he is in prison.  Staying married is a way he can still control her.  Once he is out, I believe he will divorce her at that point because he will be used to not having to deal with her 24/7 and he won't want to deal with her when he gets his "freedom"  (whatever freedom he thinks he will have).  

I think he's too lazy to divorce her, even once he gets out. He basically has a free domestic slave with her. Who would clean up his cracker crumbs for him? 

[Notabug]

43 minutes ago, Lisa418722 said:

I don't think Josh will divorce Anna while he is in prison.  Staying married is a way he can still control her.  Once he is out, I believe he will divorce her at that point because he will be used to not having to deal with her 24/7 and he won't want to deal with her when he gets his "freedom"  (whatever freedom he thinks he will have).  

She's his handmaiden, she'll do as she is told.  Once he is out, he's going to need someone to cook and clean and do his laundry.  That's Anna.  He will ignore her otherwise.

[FortKnox]

18 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I looked to see if Anna has posted recently on her Instagram, she hasn’t.

How about this post for FF’s 33rd birthday, though? Ironic, creepy, I can’t find the correct word. 🤔 
 

I still can't get over how old Josh looks. I doesn't look 33, he looks like he pushing 53. A rough looking 53.

[SusanM]

I could see Josh divorcing Anna, or at least not moving back in to share a life with her, if something happens in prison to change him.  What I could see potentially is him finally making a break from the fundie life once and for all.  He isn't cut out for it - well other than the "bow down before the man in your life" aspect of it anyway.

[Notabug]

1 minute ago, SusanM said:

I could see Josh divorcing Anna, or at least not moving back in to share a life with her, if something happens in prison to change him.  What I could see potentially is him finally making a break from the fundie life once and for all.  He isn't cut out for it - well other than the "bow down before the man in your life" aspect of it anyway.

If Josh publicly breaks away from fundie life (he isn't a true believer even now, IMO); he is going to be cut off by JB and Michelle.  The only thing Josh hates more than fundie life is having to support himself.  I think he'll continue to pay lip service to JB and Michelle and their warped view of religion as long as it means he doesn't have to pay his own way.