Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[lascuba]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

What I wonder about Josh are the years from age 15 until he married Anna and the years from around 2015 until 2019, when he was raided. Filling in those gaps would tell us a lot more about him. I also wonder what Josh knew about himself and/or thought about himself.

What we know is in and around 2003 Josh molested his sisters, in and around 2013 Josh was on Ashley Madison and around 2019 he was viewing CSA. We can also add that he tried to protect Jacob's abuser and also a telling scene from when Josh, Anna, JB & M were checking out the Dillard's McMansion. 

No doubt that Josh is a sexual predator, but I wonder if he's a true pedophile in the sense that children are his true and only 'interest'. Or in hindsight are we seeing an escalation of a need for more and more deviant sexual experiences. 

But either way Josh has, and is, a problem. If he gets 10 years behind bars he'll only be in his 40s when he gets out. That's scary because that leaves a lot of years for Josh to prey on more victims.

One thing that really stood out to me on his Ashley Madison/OKCupid profiles was how tame his list of preferences and desires were. At the time, I took it as a sign that he just wanted anyone who wasn't Anna rather than anything specific, sexually speaking, because all he wanted was the plainest of vanilla sex. But now I'm wondering if he's been escalating since then--extramarital sex probably being extremely deviant to him at the time; or if what he wanted was deviance or kink without consent. Because there are a ton of options online for finding someone who wants whatever your kink is, so if he wanted kink but said he wanted vanilla...there are some really sinister implications there, and I hope I'm just letting my imagination get the better of me.

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, farmgal4 said:

I stopped watching that show after reading about how fake it was.  There’s not a “real” minute in the entire show.

That’s why I don’t watch any “reality” shows. I love documentaries, but these aren’t even close.

[Future Cat Lady]

When I think Josh and Anna's honeymoon, I imagine something like the Pearls honeymoon. I don't think Josh was all that nice to Anna. He was filmed letting Anna carry their suitcases. He didn't even try to be courteous in front of the cameras, so imagine when no one is watching...

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

When I think Josh and Anna's honeymoon, I imagine something like the Pearls honeymoon. I don't think Josh was all that nice to Anna. He was filmed letting Anna carry their suitcases. He didn't even try to be courteous in front of the cameras, so imagine when no one is watching...

Josh was an ass to Anna. I remember that scene where she was STRUGGLING with two suitcases and his ass was just strolling along. 

[3 is enough]

And let's not forget the time he took a nap while she was in labor...

[Zella]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Yea, I hear what you're saying, but that wasn't the vibe I got at all.  It definitely felt like Anna shared something that Josh was hiding. The scene stood out to me so much, I posted about it a few years ago. Long before this latest 'scandal'.

That's interesting! I'd be curious to watch the scene if anyone can find it. 

[BigBingerBro]

1 hour ago, 3 is enough said:

And let's not forget the time he took a nap while she was in labor...

I was infuriated when I saw that.  I mean couldn't he have drank a few coffees or a red bull and stuck by her side?  I really started to dislike him after that knob-move.

[Scarlett45]

40 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

I was infuriated when I saw that.  I mean couldn't he have drank a few coffees or a red bull and stuck by her side?  I really started to dislike him after that knob-move.

That was awful too. I was with my BFF when she had her baby and I wouldn’t have DREAMED to sleep. And that wasn’t my baby!

If we had a dollar for every time we saw Josh being awful none of us on this forum would have a mortgage or student loans. 

[coconspirator]

On 6/1/2021 at 11:36 AM, rue721 said:

On the one hand, I agree, but on the other hand, a fourteen year old who is acting out sexually needs help. Not ditch digging and shunning, actual help.

Because something is going WILDLY wrong when a kid maybe not even past puberty himself is doing things like assaulting his younger sisters in common areas of the house and watching porn so publicly that random little kids are walking in and telling on him. Like, there's curiosity and then there's THAT.

And I know that JB and Michelle know that a kid acting out like that is a HUGE red flag, because they are obsessed with sexuality and sexualize everything.

It just makes me wonder so much about the greater context that Josh was operating in. Because a house where a five year old can be digitally raped by her brother in a common area and nobody even bats an eye is just mind-boggling to me. It just makes me think that Josh is the (most visible) symptom, but wtf is the disease.

Bolded your first paragraph for emphasis.  This cannot be stated enough. Teenagers who are sexually acting out can very often be helped through an accredited and evidenced based treatment program. Working with kids who are still developing their moral center and who still have a great deal of brain development during those years is much different than working with a 35 year old man or woman who has been sexually offending for years.  Digging a ditch doesn't teach you about harm to others, about emotional and physical intrusiveness, or about cognitive distortions that justified the offense.  Josh might have been put on the right path if his parents had gotten him REAL help. Now it probably is too late. 

[Cinnabon]

22 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

That was awful too. I was with my BFF when she had her baby and I wouldn’t have DREAMED to sleep. And that wasn’t my baby!

If we had a dollar for every time we saw Josh being awful none of us on this forum would have a mortgage or student loans. 

In that case, she had you. Anna also had many “helpers.” Josh probably would’ve just gotten in the way with his useless self.

22 minutes ago, coconspirator said:Bolded your first paragraph for emphasis.  This cannot be stated enough. Teenagers who are sexually acting out can very often be helped through an accredited and evidenced based treatment program. Working with kids who are still developing their moral center and who still have a great deal of brain development during those years is much different than working with a 35 year old man or woman who has been sexually offending for years.  Digging a ditch doesn't teach you about harm to others, about emotional and physical intrusiveness, or about cognitive distortions that justified the offense.  Josh might have been put on the right path if his parents had gotten him REAL help. Now it probably is too late. 

Shame on everyone who knew about Josh as a teen and didn’t call CPS. He would’ve been mandated to get legitimate therapy.

[emmawoodhouse]

10 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

In that case, she had you. Anna also had many “helpers.” Josh probably would’ve just gotten in the way with his useless self.

Shame on everyone who knew about Josh as a teen and didn’t call CPS. He would’ve been mandated to get legitimate therapy.

They believed in letting the church and families settle these sort of problems. They were STAUNCHLY against outside assistance. They viewed it as interference and showing weakness in their faith. 

Knowing what they know now, I wonder if Boobchelle would seek outside help if Jackson (the only male minor left) acted out in some way? 

[Cinnabon]

10 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

They believed in letting the church and families settle these sort of problems. They were STAUNCHLY against outside assistance. They viewed it as interference and showing weakness in their faith. 

Knowing what they know now, I wonder if Boobchelle would seek outside help if Jackson (the only male minor left) acted out in some way? 

I know the way they view CPS. But it’s such a shame that someone, anyone who knew, didn’t at least make an anonymous report.

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

I know the way they view CPS. But it’s such a shame that someone, anyone who knew, didn’t at least make an anonymous report.

Unfortunately, even their church friends believed that such matters were to be handled internally. To report would be interference. Sad, but that's how they operate.

[Zella]

I also wouldn't be surprised if many of them wouldn't report because, quite frankly, they have enough skeletons in their own family's closet to not want anyone poking around too much. 

[3 is enough]

In hindsight, it was very telling that Josh did all of those things that made him look nasty while he knew the cameras were rolling.  Most people would at least make an effort to avoid looking bad on tv.  He just didn’t give a shit.  

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, 3 is enough said:

In hindsight, it was very telling that Josh did all of those things that made him look nasty while he knew the cameras were rolling.  Most people would at least make an effort to avoid looking bad on tv.  He just didn’t give a shit.  

Or his thinking is so fucked up, he wasn't thinking it made him look bad.

[ginger90]

The nameless birthday boy is Marcus:

[merylinkid]

On 6/1/2021 at 4:47 PM, Normades said:

Yes, but that seems like a huge conflict.  I can't see a judge being on cases so closely related.  It doesn't seem right to me. 

Judges do it all the time.   How many judges are assigned to that Federal Court in Arkansas?   I'm thinking not a whole hell of a lot.    There may not BE any other Judge to hear the case.   

Also the judge handling the preliminaries for Josh's case might not be the one handling the actual trial.    

[ginger90]

Unless Josh’s trial date is changed, his will be first, then the sisters.

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

Unless Josh’s trial date is changed, his will be first, then the sisters.

I thought the sisters' case had been rejected multiple times.  How did they get it into federal court?

[Tikichick]

8 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

In hindsight, it was very telling that Josh did all of those things that made him look nasty while he knew the cameras were rolling.  Most people would at least make an effort to avoid looking bad on tv.  He just didn’t give a shit.  

There's a good possibility it was either part of the thrill for him or a gradual baby step towards the idea that he could eventually normalize what he wanted in the eyes of others and not have to take such pains to hide it all anymore.

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

There's a good possibility it was either part of the thrill for him or a gradual baby step towards the idea that he could eventually normalize what he wanted in the eyes of others and not have to take such pains to hide it all anymore.

Yeah, he probably got a thrill out of publicly degrading her. 

[Rootbeer]

40 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I thought the sisters' case had been rejected multiple times.  How did they get it into federal court?

I believe that several of the defendants, mainly city employees, were dismissed from the case; but the cases of several other defendants are still active.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/trial-rescheduled-for-duggar-sisters-lawsuit-against-springdale-washington-county/ar-AAKdfL5#:~:text=In May of 2017%2C Jill Dillard%2C Jessa Seewald%2C,female in 2002 and 2003%2C court documents state.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Rootbeer

[Heathen]

8 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Or his thinking is so fucked up, he wasn't thinking it made him look bad.

Or he did it because his parents taught him to debase himself for a paycheck. It's scripted. It's edited. It does not reflect reality -- does anybody here really think Mullet was a wonderful mother to the J'slaves, the way the show pretended she was? 

[Panopticon]

19 hours ago, ginger90 said:

I remember it was Josh, Anna, John David,  and Jana going to a movie. I think Josh referred to it as a double date, and referenced it being Arkansas. 

 

There’s been a lot of discussion, over the years but especially lately, about how Jana/JD appear to be genuinely close and appear to really dislike Josh. That comment by Josh makes me think either the feeling is mutual... or was just one more time Josh thought it would be fun to publicly embarrass the twins and the twins added it to their mental list of reasons to dislike Josh. 

[GeeGolly]

29 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Or he did it because his parents taught him to debase himself for a paycheck. It's scripted. It's edited. It does not reflect reality -- does anybody here really think Mullet was a wonderful mother to the J'slaves, the way the show pretended she was? 

I'm trying to remember a show that made Michelle look like a good mother to the older girls. I can't really recall one. I remember a lot of Gothard/Michelle lines being repeated throughout the years that some could interpret a being a good mother, but in most of the shows, other than the very early specials, Michelle barely interacts with any of her children.

[Heathen]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm trying to remember a show that made Michelle look like a good mother to the older girls. I can't really recall one. I remember a lot of Gothard/Michelle lines being repeated throughout the years that some could interpret a being a good mother, but in most of the shows, other than the very early specials, Michelle barely interacts with any of her children.

Mullet has been portrayed on the show as the Great Holy Mother since day one. It's total bull since it was obvious from the start that her daughters were raising the other kids, but that hasn't stopped the show(s) from acting like Mullet was a saint. 

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm trying to remember a show that made Michelle look like a good mother to the older girls. I can't really recall one. I remember a lot of Gothard/Michelle lines being repeated throughout the years that some could interpret a being a good mother, but in most of the shows, other than the very early specials, Michelle barely interacts with any of her children.

Probably the closest storyline was that she was teaching the older girls homemaking skills.

Clearly she did a bang up job.

[Minivanessa]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Probably the closest storyline was that she was teaching the older girls homemaking skills.

Clearly she did a bang up job.

I think the editing monkeys had fun on that issue. The scripts had plenty of THs praising Mother of the Year Michelle, and she got lots of face time to yammer in her soft little public voice about all her beliefs about how to raise children. And IIRC there were ALSO plenty of scenes of the howlers running amok, and the Jslaves talking about all their household jurisdictions, etc.

I remember a video on YouTube - maybe a clip from an episode? - in which Michelle was talking to the camera but completely unable to get through it because she absolutely could not manage two of her toddlers who were squirming and talking. It was unintentionally hilarious MOTY footage. 

[Scarlett45]

48 minutes ago, Panopticon said:

There’s been a lot of discussion, over the years but especially lately, about how Jana/JD appear to be genuinely close and appear to really dislike Josh. That comment by Josh makes me think either the feeling is mutual... or was just one more time Josh thought it would be fun to publicly embarrass the twins and the twins added it to their mental list of reasons to dislike Josh. 

Oh I am sure the twins have disliked Josh for many legitimate reasons over the years, and were probably not eager to hide that fact. Josh probably disliked the twins because unlike the younger kids they had no motivation to kiss his buttocks, and likely stood up to him when he was being awful to the little ones. The next kid after the twins is Jill, and Jill, while a loving and nurturing caregiver to her buddies, probably feared Josh and wanted to defer to him as an older brother. We can see that Josh took advantage of her trust.

Yes Josh is older, but only by a year and a half, and Jana/JD have the advantage of being a team- a year and a half age difference is not usually anything regarding the power dynamics of a family. Jana also had a lot of power as the eldest daughter, and she has used her power for "good", Josh used his to be a terror.

[BitterApple]

 I absolutely can see Jana and JD hating Josh. Even though JD didn't have the responsibilities of home and child care, I think he did a lot of labor for the various Duggar businesses. He has a CDL and heavy equipment operator's license, so he definitely didn't have the privilege of sitting around and fiddling with computers all day the way Josh did. Josh was the Golden Child, he knew it and lorded it over his siblings.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by BitterApple

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, Heathen said:

Mullet has been portrayed on the show as the Great Holy Mother since day one. It's total bull since it was obvious from the start that her daughters were raising the other kids, but that hasn't stopped the show(s) from acting like Mullet was a saint. 

I get what you're saying, but much of what I remember is Michelle touting her way was great and she was great. I remember the girls repeating lines here and there like, mom will always make time to listen to our hearts, mom always steers us back to the Bible, etc. But I never saw Michelle doing any MOTY type of things on the show. And I actually saw many times when Michelle was shown to be very cultish and almost empty beyond spouting the same Gothard shit over and over again.

I believe JB & M love the way they come off on the show, and I'm sure TLC did sometimes edit them to look good, but I've also seen many edits where neither parent look that great.

Like when a young one comes and asks Michelle for something and she tells them "go find your buddy", Michelle telling a young one that the world doesn't revolve around them with her finger pointed in their face, Michelle practically ignoring a kid as she fed her, as she laid on a couch, Michelle losing a kid at the airport and not giving a shit, Michelle laughing when her daughter had her head stuck in a railing, Michelle whispering in a crying or misbehaving kid's ear and suddenly they stop, Michelle filming her kid who fell off a stage while the siblings rush in to help, the family preparing for trips and Michelle is no where to be found, Michelle practically flipping out because her 4 year old's sweater slipped and her shoulder was showing, or flipping out because her daughter held hands with her soon to be fiancé, during prayer, Michelle's panicked look when she thought Miss Cathy was referring to the Pearls, etc.

There's more, but other than Michelle tooting her own horn, I really can't remember seeing her actually doing much mothering at all.

Again, I agree TLC started out with the intention of presenting wonder parents and wonder kids, but you can't show what isn't there.

Edited June 3, 2021 by GeeGolly

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I get what you're saying, but much of what I remember is Michelle touting her way was great and she was great. I remember the girls repeating lines here and there like, mom will always make time to listen to our hearts, mom always steers us back to the Bible, etc. But I never saw Michelle doing any MOTY type of things on the show. And I actually saw many times when Michelle was shown to be very cultish and almost empty beyond spouting the same Gothard shit over and over again.

I believe JB & M love the way they come off on the show, and I'm sure TLC did sometimes edit them to look good, but I've also seen many edits where neither parent look that great.

Like when a young one comes and asks Michelle for something and she tells them "go find your buddy", Michelle telling a young one that the world doesn't revolve around them with her finger pointed in their face, Michelle practically ignoring a kid as she fed her, as she laid on a couch, Michelle losing a kid at the airport and not giving a shit, Michelle laughing when her daughter had her head stuck in a railing, Michelle whispering in a crying or misbehaving kid's ear and suddenly they stop, Michelle filming her kid who fell off a stage while the siblings rush in to help, the family preparing for trips and Michelle is no where to be found, Michelle practically flipping out because her 4 year old's sweater slipped and her shoulder was showing, or flipping out because her daughter held hands with her soon to be fiancé, during prayer, Michelle's panicked look when she thought Miss Cathy was referring to the Pearls, etc.

There's more, but other than Michelle tooting her own horn, I really can't remember seeing her actually doing much mothering at all.

Again, I agree TLC started out with the intention of presenting wonder parents and wonder kids, but you can't show what isn't there.

Oh, they definitely think their coming off great. Michelle had no problem saying she hands off her babies at six months. Anyone with any self awareness or even awareness of how she'd come off wouldn't say anything like that. Nor would any parent do that interview with Megyn Kelly and insist  everything they did was correct.   

[emmawoodhouse]

This video is so gross knowing what we know now. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPrEHyeghCn/?utm_medium=copy_link

[JoanArc]

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

This video is so gross knowing what we know now. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPrEHyeghCn/?utm_medium=copy_link

One of the 'rules' was no siblings on laps. He had a kid in his lap on the last 19KAC episode, too.  Jesus Christ is he repugnant.

[madpsych78]

2 hours ago, JoanArc said:

One of the 'rules' was no siblings on laps. He had a kid in his lap on the last 19KAC episode, too.  Jesus Christ is he repugnant.

Oh good Lort!

[LilJen]

On 6/3/2021 at 6:26 PM, JoanArc said:

One of the 'rules' was no siblings on laps. He had a kid in his lap on the last 19KAC episode, too.  Jesus Christ is he repugnant.

Yes, but don’t you see? He got married and thus righteously fulfilled so he would not EVER want to fondle children or watch children being abused, ever! He got married and is having THE SEX and so siblings on laps = perfectly fine. 😙

[BigBingerBro]

I don't follow any of these people on social media.  Has Anna posted anything since the lastest Pest scandal?

[ginger90]

48 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

I don't follow any of these people on social media.  Has Anna posted anything since the lastest Pest scandal?

She hasn’t posted anything on Instagram since April 24th. I don’t know about anywhere else.

[lascuba]

On 6/4/2021 at 6:55 PM, LilJen said:

Yes, but don’t you see? He got married and thus righteously fulfilled so he would not EVER want to fondle children or watch children being abused, ever! He got married and is having THE SEX and so siblings on laps = perfectly fine. 😙

I never made this connection and my mind is blown. I figured that JB and Michelle were just lying about the (useless) rules they made to prevent abuse, but that wasn't it. They had that rule, but it stopped being necessary for Josh once he married. Which is so much worse than if they had lied.

 

[Turquoise]

Posted by floridamom on JD/Abbie:
I believe Anna went to the car lot early on because she didn't know what to do with herself alone at home, much like Jill who clung to Derick at Walmart corporate. No life skills for these undereducated, under experienced brides.

 

I think that may be part of it, but given what we know now I also suspect Anna was there to make sure ol' Joshie stayed off the computer. 

[Kellyee]

Quote

Probably the closest storyline was that she was teaching the older girls homemaking skills.

Michelle made her daughters cook lunch and dinner for at least 16 people at a time, every single day. I can't imagine that being my daily job at 12 years old. I wonder what poor Mackenzie is forced to be responsible for as Anna's oldest daughter. She does seem to be holding Maryella in quite a few pictures that are posted to social media. The daily chores for these large families have to be constant and never-ending.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GeeGolly]

I remember Michelle teaching the girls how to make homemade laundry soap, do self perms and make bread. Other than the tatertot casserole, I don't remember a lot of cooking lessons or cooking going on. Well, except for Michelle making eggs.

I'm sure they ate, but I'm guessing it was a lot of lazy and easy meals.

[MargeGunderson]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I remember Michelle teaching the girls how to make homemade laundry soap, do self perms and make bread. Other than the tatertot casserole, I don't remember a lot of cooking lessons or cooking going on. Well, except for Michelle making eggs.

I'm sure they ate, but I'm guessing it was a lot of lazy and easy meals.

They had a lot to choose from - cold green beans straight from a can, instant oatmeal with cold water, canned tuna with BBQ sauce, pickles….

[Westiepeach]

17 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Well, except for Michelle making eggs.

Egg. Singular. Michie made ONE EGG.

[Zella]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm sure they ate, but I'm guessing it was a lot of lazy and easy meals.

Yeah I think it's a vicious cycle wherein they didn't learn how to actually cook, but they were overwhelmed with what was expected of them, both because they couldn't cook and because they were expected to feed so many people on the regular, so they relied on a lot of quick meals that they could feed in bulk. And once they leave home, they just tend to make the same meals because they don't know any better. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Zella

[crazy8s]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm sure they ate, but I'm guessing it was a lot of lazy and easy meals.

Stouffer's lasagna was shown several times it seems.

[Hockey Addict]

Anna even if no sentence has been made yet has to be beside herself. Her blessing canal might be permanently out of business so now her purpose is taken from her too 

[Hockey Addict]

In the world they come from fertility is status it seems. She has bigger issues to focus on but I think she still believes he will come home without a doubt. Unless she was under a different name she was not at the zoom for the bond hearing correct?

[Nysha]

What's the chances of the trial being delayed past July? My ex-son-in-law just pled guilty to an assault charge where the first court date was almost 2 years ago. His lawyer filed for continuances, COVID happened, and the county went through 2 prosecutors.

If Josh's trial is delayed until after the baby is born I can see Anna having her next one 10-11 months after this one just to make sure she gets as many babies as she can before Josh goes away for 10 years.