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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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On 5/14/2021 at 1:19 AM, BitterApple said:

Here's the video:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CO0WKyHF62m/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

He won me over at "Bill Gothard belongs in hell."

 

The man in this video is Jacob Wilson. He was rumored to be courting Jana a long time ago. He did social media post that some people thought was disrespectful announcing he wasn't dating Jana. It was a false rumor they were dating.

Last year he was dating Lundyn Smith, who also has a fundie background. They had a baby in December, but aren't married and may have broken up. 

He's angry young man in general. It's good he's speaking out about Josh, but isn't in good standing with many of his fellow fundies. 

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7 hours ago, Zella said:

I don't think logical problem-solving is a strong skillset for any of these people.

My guess is that in their social circle, porn is the most socially acceptable thing to blame--it certainly seems like that is what people in their church believed happened instead of the actual molestations--and it's become almost an instinctive reaction with them, especially when it comes to Josh. It was porn! All porn's fault! Not Josh's fault, never.

You can even see it in Jessa's response to his arrest. I do think she was likely the only one who wrote her statement, and it was the only one that I recall that repeated the family's obvious beliefs on porn--it's all equally bad and to blame. 

In any event, they don't parse through how to avoid repeating the problem in any way that is reasonable or measured, and they also don't force Josh to be responsible for his own choices, so you get the default of them blaming porn but them also rather ineptly trying to keep him away from it. 

My guess is also that Josh probably wanted to protect some of the slyer ways he got around their methods, so the only way they found out that he was partioning the hard drive is literally because it came out in court. It wouldn't surprise me if he admitted to using other devices she didn't have access to (like a burner phone or a a work computer) to look at porn during the Ashley Madison fallout, so that way, Covenant Eyes' effectiveness was never in question. 

I think the known porn issue Justin talks about was a couple years after the molestations, during the failed Holt campaign. IIRC, at the time that Josh was being punished for the abuse, the church elders knew  but the general church membership only knew that he had committed some kind of sin and his sisters had to publicly forgive him. Was there any indication of porn viewing at that time? I really don't remember, and the Duggars have always been so opaque with their timelines.  I could see church members assuming the sin was porn, but I think if Josh were caught viewing porn around the time of the abuse,  the Duggar would have hammered that point home during the Megyn Kelly interview, stating that it was porn's fault for Josh molesting his sisters. From what I remember of what has been said so far, I think the order of events is:

Molestation>punishment>molestation again>punishment>porn ("sin in the camp" blamed for Holt's loss)>punishment by isolated pond digging>>>>porn>Ashley Madison>rehab>>>>porn>CSA materials

And TLC was there for the immediate aftermath of the molestations AND the pond digging as porn punishment. No one will ever convince me that they didn't know what was going on.

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I also think that was the timeline - the molestations were revealed (in some manner) to the church and the Duggars sent him off to some Gothard project in Little Rock. The "sin in the camp" porn viewing during the Holt campaign came later, and he was sent to dig out a pond as punishment. I never had the idea that the molestations and porn viewing were all part of the same situation in terms of disclosure to the church or consequences to Josh. 

I'm also convinced the producers/TLC had to know something was up with Josh during the time he was out digging that pond and brought home for filming days. 

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1 hour ago, lascuba said:

I think the known porn issue Justin talks about was a couple years after the molestations, during the failed Holt campaign. IIRC, at the time that Josh was being punished for the abuse, the church elders knew  but the general church membership only knew that he had committed some kind of sin and his sisters had to publicly forgive him. Was there any indication of porn viewing at that time? I really don't remember, and the Duggars have always been so opaque with their timelines.  I could see church members assuming the sin was porn, but I think if Josh were caught viewing porn around the time of the abuse,  the Duggar would have hammered that point home during the Megyn Kelly interview, stating that it was porn's fault for Josh molesting his sisters. From what I remember of what has been said so far, I think the order of events is:

Molestation>punishment>molestation again>punishment>porn ("sin in the camp" blamed for Holt's loss)>punishment by isolated pond digging>>>>porn>Ashley Madison>rehab>>>>porn>CSA materials

And TLC was there for the immediate aftermath of the molestations AND the pond digging as porn punishment. No one will ever convince me that they didn't know what was going on.

Yes the molestations predated the porn, but according to the guy who knew the family and has been talking about his experiences, he was under the impression Josh was being punished for porn. He said that the church elders almost assuredly knew the truth. But for him as just another kid in the church, there was no indication it was anything but porn. He even tried to talk to Josh about it under that assumption, and Josh never corrected him. That's why I consider it "more socially acceptable" for them to talk about it. I think in general the family was more than happy to forget about the molestations and just blame everything on porn, even though that is not at all what actually happened. 

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Lundyn

 It’s going to take a lot of prayer and reflection for me to process that name. 

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

I'm also convinced the producers/TLC had to know something was up with Josh during the time he was out digging that pond and brought home for filming days. 

I’m almost certain Jim Bob and Michelle made sure the producers knew nothing about the pond digging.  These are consummate manipulators and liars. I’m halfway surprised they didn’t make him wear a wig to cover the baldness.

One thing that bothers me: why didn’t he just use a burner laptop computer? Seems easier than partitioning the drive, it could be hidden anywhere, easily destroyed if need be, completely self-contained, far away from covenant eyes. Heck, booting from an external thumb drive/ssd/hard drive would have all these advantages as well.  He’s so stupid. 

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16 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

 It’s going to take a lot of prayer and reflection for me to process that name. 

I’m almost certain Jim Bob and Michelle made sure the producers knew nothing about the pond digging.  These are consummate manipulators and liars. I’m halfway surprised they didn’t make him wear a wig to cover the baldness.

One thing that bothers me: why didn’t he just use a burner laptop computer? Seems easier than partitioning the drive, it could be hidden anywhere, easily destroyed if need be, completely self-contained, far away from covenant eyes. Heck, booting from an external thumb drive/ssd/hard drive would have all these advantages as well.  He’s so stupid. 

From what I've read, it's actually not that hard to partition a drive. I'd assumed it would be more difficult. I'd also assume a burner laptop would be harder to hide than a burner phone. 

I think as long as he was only fooling his family, the partition probably would never have been discovered. 

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I would imagine Jim Bob has an iron grip on the finances, since it appears he is supporting Josh and his family. Probably would not be easy to explain away the purchase of a burner laptop.  But thumb drives are cheap and easy to hide. I am surprised he didn't have a bunch of them filled with his downloads.  Then again, maybe he did, but he would still need to access the sites from his laptop to download on to the external devices.  

Edited by 3 is enough
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13 minutes ago, Zella said:

From what I've read, it's actually not that hard to partition a drive.

  But it was a work computer, that had to remain in the carlot.   It’s even easier to boot off an external drive which would leave no trace on that computer. 

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32 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

thumb drives are cheap and easy to hide. I am surprised he didn't have a bunch of them filled with his downloads.  Then again, maybe he did, but he would still need to access the sites from his laptop to download on to the external devices.  

I'm so sure he did and that there is a stash of material tucked away in some corner of Jim Bob's hoarding warehouse.  

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39 minutes ago, Vaysh said:

Josh seems to be the type who once he has superficial knowledge of something considers himself an expert

Agree, and also the MO of the entire family e.g., floral arranging and Weight Watchers to name a few...operating heavy machinery, building a house, the list goes (frustratingly) on.

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1 hour ago, JoanArc said:

I’m halfway surprised they didn’t make him wear a wig to cover the baldness.

They probably said "Oh, the poor boy had head lice and we had to shave him, but it'll grow back quickly".

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1 hour ago, Vaysh said:

This whole family is like a walking, talking ad for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Yep, yep, yep.

 

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

I still remember how JB freaked out when Josh landed the FRC job and announced he was moving to DC to take it. I've often wondered if it was not only because ofJB's control freak nature, but also partly from some deep fear that Josh was likely to either be found out for the molestations, or to do something else that would be found out. Ultimately, it was both

It was the Josh would have money he couldn't control.   Considering their reaction to the news coming out, I don't think it crossed their minds anyone else would care.   After all they "handled" it, what was the problem?

A 30 something year old man with six kids to support and he still has to get money from Daddy.   How fucking pathetic is that.   Say what you want about Jill but she managed to get away and from what I can tell not supported by the family anymore because she won't play according to Head Idiot's rules.

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3 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

I would imagine Jim Bob has an iron grip on the finances

Would not stop a near sociopath like Josh from getting a $20 flash drive.

3 hours ago, Vaysh said:

This whole family is like a walking, talking ad for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Yes, combined with beginner’s luck.

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Does anyone remember if the girl Josh was "courting" at 14 was a Holt daughter?  

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Just now, 3 is enough said:

Does anyone remember if the girl Josh was "courting" at 14 was a Holt daughter?  

Yes, she was.

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On 5/16/2021 at 8:44 AM, JocelynCavanaugh said:

You’re much kinder than I am. I was done with Anna six years ago, when she stayed with a guy who publicly humiliated her even though she had viable options to get away. Now she’s had/having three more kids with him, and didn’t immediately file for divorce when he was charged with something so depraved yet not all that surprising. I don’t consider her ignorant upbringing a sufficient excuse. She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned. Sometimes people are legitimately victims and sometimes legitimate victims are also arrogant assholes who victimize their children by choosing pride over safety. [This is not meant to accuse Josh of doing anything to his kids. I mean the stuff that’s confirmed publicly.]

I understand how you feel. I do admit that my heart is too big for my own good sometimes:) I am torn over feeling bad for her as a human being, and then feeling the way you and many others do because she is plenty old enough to know better, and probably knows a lot more than I think she does. Those babies she brought into this world should be her first priority, not her idiot perverted husband.

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17 hours ago, Zella said:

I don't think logical problem-solving is a strong skillset for any of these people.

My guess is that in their social circle, porn is the most socially acceptable thing to blame--it certainly seems like that is what people in their church believed happened instead of the actual molestations--and it's become almost an instinctive reaction with them, especially when it comes to Josh. It was porn! All porn's fault! Not Josh's fault, never.

You can even see it in Jessa's response to his arrest. I do think she was likely the only one who wrote her statement, and it was the only one that I recall that repeated the family's obvious beliefs on porn--it's all equally bad and to blame. 

In any event, they don't parse through how to avoid repeating the problem in any way that is reasonable or measured, and they also don't force Josh to be responsible for his own choices, so you get the default of them blaming porn but them also rather ineptly trying to keep him away from it. 

My guess is also that Josh probably wanted to protect some of the slyer ways he got around their methods, so the only way they found out that he was partioning the hard drive is literally because it came out in court. It wouldn't surprise me if he admitted to using other devices she didn't have access to (like a burner phone or a a work computer) to look at porn during the Ashley Madison fallout, so that way, Covenant Eyes' effectiveness was never in question. 

Here in Canada, before covid, there used to be a huge gathering of Christian men called The Promise Keepers. Promises made to their wives when they would marry. The group would hold a convention in arenas every year for them, and the main problem these men all had was addiction to porn. I know this because my SIL went one year, though he never had a porn addiction, they talked about other issues besides porn, but my daughter told me that most of their issues were porn addiction. I am assuming it was adult porn they talked about and not CP. About 68% of Christian men were addicted to porn, said one of the articles I read a few years ago. My thoughts are that the number is probably higher than that, just my opinion though.

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6 hours ago, Jeeves said:

@Vaysh - I think you're onto something about the arrogance. IMO Josh was complacent about having fooled his wife and parents. I wonder how often - or if - it crossed his mind that he'd moved from indulging in viewing legal porn, to illegal images of child sexual abuse. 

I still remember how JB freaked out when Josh landed the FRC job and announced he was moving to DC to take it. I've often wondered if it was not only because ofJB's control freak nature, but also partly from some deep fear that Josh was likely to either be found out for the molestations, or to do something else that would be found out. Ultimately, it was both. JB's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I think that at some level [even if he denied it] he had to know that Josh was weak and flawed and likely to damage the family brand. [I don't think JB gives a cr*p about the women or children Josh might have actually harmed or who were harmed in the production of the nasty images/videos Josh downloaded, but JB's got a pretty strong impulse for self preservation.]

 

Josh knew the difference in the images, legal/illegal porn. Adult porn isn't a slippery slope/gateway into CSA. Adult images are easy to find. Pornhub, Onlyfans, you don't need the dark web to view adult images.  I'm assuming he could have used that partition to get around covenant eyes go on Pornhub, since teenagers get around CE, but he used the partition to go on the dark web and search for the CSA. He didn't have to go on the dark web for Ashley Madison and there were only adults.

 

JB may have been upset at DC being out of his control, I was under the impression he wanted it but other posters have made me rethink that. But it's ironic because JB and M doing TLC was the ultimate downfall (I know some have said it was Josh's idea but they had ultimate say and it's been JB's main grift.) If not for them going on TV no one would have wanted to expose Josh's teenage crimes (remember someone contacted Oprah about his 2002/3 stuff) and no one would have wanted Josh in DC if he wasn't a Duggar. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, ranchgirl said:

There was an early episode of ___ & Counting when Josh was engaged to Anna and set out to drive from his home to Anna's home with Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger along, for wedding prep help.  (Those poor girls out on the road with Josh alone.)  During their travel to FL, the show shows some of the Duggar girls eating pickles in the car.  It is a different time than the picture that was shown above.  

I believe Josh and the Duggar girls stayed a week (Josh stayed in the little camper outside of Anna's parents home) and helped make the bridesmaid dresses and other stuff.  On the last evening they were there, Anna said she had wanted to take them all out to dinner but then she felt ill and so Josh and his sisters went and ate at an Italian place without her.  I've always wondered if she learned some news that day regarding Josh and just needed time to process. 

What I remember most vividly from him courting Anna was all of the 'hand sex' they were having with their chaperons in the back seat! It was so creepy!

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7 minutes ago, Gigi43 said:

Josh knew the difference in the images, legal/illegal porn. Adult porn isn't a slippery slope/gateway into CSA. Adult images are easy to find. Pornhub, Onlyfans, you don't need the dark web to view adult images. 

Good point. I hadn't thought about that. I still think that Josh was arrogant and stupid, and most likely he just thought about how he was beating the surveillance system imposed by his family, instead of worrying about also breaking the law. 

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1 hour ago, mittsigirl said:

What I remember most vividly from him courting Anna was all of the 'hand sex' they were having with their chaperons in the back seat! It was so creepy!

Maybe there is more to Anna that we don't know about. 

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OMG.  Hand sex!  I had forgotten all about that.  It was quite the subject of A LOT of snark back then.  

There is so much stuff that happened back then that just makes you want to 🤦‍♀️now.

There was a scene before the wedding when Jim Bob was telling Josh "It's like Legos".  They read that awful book about married love from some whacko fundie OB-GYN.  

And the road trip to Florida with his sisters, three of whom he had molested. I remember thinking of that and just cringing for those poor girls after the bombshell dropped.  

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25 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

There is so much stuff that happened back then that just makes you want to 🤦‍♀️now

 

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19 minutes ago, Vaysh said:

I wonder what they meant by addicted. Like, how they would define it. The fundies seem to use the word about anyone who even wants to look at porn so I'm guessing the conservative Christian definition might also be different from an average mainstream understanding of an addiction. Because 68% is a really high number of people to be addicted to anything.

I think it's so high because of the stigma attached to sex and porn in their lives, and the more people tell them not to look at porn because it is satan getting to them, then the more they want to look at porn and fantasize about having the kind of sex that fundies would consider as being 'dirty' or 'wrong'. Also, there are lots of 'christian' husbands who would never in a million years act out sex the way they fantasize about it, with their wives, but would pay a prostitute instead, because they want to keep sex with their wives 'clean'. Fundies have a way of screwing normal things up, in a very big way. Making for lots of screwed up adults.

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3 hours ago, mittsigirl said:

Here in Canada, before covid, there used to be a huge gathering of Christian men called The Promise Keepers. 

You may already be aware of this, but Promise Keepers originated in the U.S. My husband got dragged to a rally when it was still quite new, maybe '91. Not his cup of tea. 

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11 minutes ago, Portia said:

You may already be aware of this, but Promise Keepers originated in the U.S. My husband got dragged to a rally when it was still quite new, maybe '91. Not his cup of tea. 

Thanks Portia, I never knew that! My SIL never went back to another one either. Wonder if JB ever went to one?

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On 5/17/2021 at 9:00 PM, mittsigirl said:

Thanks Portia, I never knew that! My SIL never went back to another one either. Wonder if JB ever went to one?

I'd be surprised if he hadn't. They were huge in the '90s in Baptist circles.

Until I saw your post and then googled it just now, I had no idea PK had become big in Canada as well as New Zealand.

Edited by Portia · Reason: Typo
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1 hour ago, mittsigirl said:

I think it's so high because of the stigma attached to sex and porn in their lives, and the more people tell them not to look at porn because it is satan getting to them, then the more they want to look at porn and fantasize about having the kind of sex that fundies would consider as being 'dirty' or 'wrong'. Also, there are lots of 'christian' husbands who would never in a million years act out sex the way they fantasize about it, with their wives, but would pay a prostitute instead, because they want to keep sex with their wives 'clean'. Fundies have a way of screwing normal things up, in a very big way. Making for lots of screwed up adults.

Commenting in small talk 👉

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Between reading so much here and stories posted elsewhere, my brain is getting confused with all of the information I am storing in it. I was wondering if JB and Michelle have seen the images Josh was found to have on his computer/phone?

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11 hours ago, mittsigirl said:

Between reading so much here and stories posted elsewhere, my brain is getting confused with all of the information I am storing in it. I was wondering if JB and Michelle have seen the images Josh was found to have on his computer/phone?

I’d be very surprised if they have. Although they are both control freaks they don’t have that type of pull. Especially with the feds.

Edited by SMama · Reason: Typo
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1 minute ago, SMama said:

I’d be very surprised if the have. Although they are both control freaks they don’t have that type of pull. Especially with the feds.

Thanks SMAMA! I was reading elsewhere and somebody made it sound like they had seen them, but the untruths are everywhere, so you just can't believe many of them.

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They're in an odd situation.  Technically they are not involved in the court case and would have no valid reason to be in possession of or view the material so wouldn't it be a crime if they did?  

Josh is an adult by law and generally JB and Michelle would have no involvement in his case.  We know JB can't allow that, but it's how it would usually be handled.  

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3 minutes ago, Absolom said:

They're in an odd situation.  Technically they are not involved in the court case and would have no valid reason to be in possession of or view the material so wouldn't it be a crime if they did?  

Josh is an adult by law and generally JB and Michelle would have no involvement in his case.  We know JB can't allow that, but it's how it would usually be handled.  

True. 

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1 hour ago, Absolom said:

Josh is an adult by law and generally JB and Michelle would have no involvement in his case.  We know JB can't allow that, but it's how it would usually be handled.  

As between JB/Michelle and Josh's lawyers, that's how it would ethically be handled. No matter who is writing the checks to pay the lawyer's fees for representing Josh, Josh is the client.

The lawyer's obligation is to competently advise and represent Josh, with Josh's interests in mind. Even if JB pays the fees, that doesn't give JB any client status in the case. JB can roar and fuss and holler but at the end of the day, the lawyer's duties are to Josh, not JB. 

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14 hours ago, Portia said:

I'd be ßuprised if he hadn't. They were huge in the '90s in Baptist circles.

Until I saw your post and then googled it just now, I had no idea PK had become big in Canada as well as New Zealand.

Pentecostal/Assembly of God circles too. I knew some AoG men who went to Promise Keepers things in Kansas City. Not coincidentally, the AoG dad I knew was a creep and one of the people who put me off religion for good. I'm not the only person who thought he was molesting his daughters. Their mother thought so too. 

Topic: I feel sorry for Ofsmuggar in the sense that she no doubt thought if she did everything right, her life would just fall into place. I think it's fair to say her world is rocked. 

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3 hours ago, Absolom said:

They're in an odd situation.  Technically they are not involved in the court case and would have no valid reason to be in possession of or view the material so wouldn't it be a crime if they did?  

Josh is an adult by law and generally JB and Michelle would have no involvement in his case.  We know JB can't allow that, but it's how it would usually be handled.  

They should just read about the content of those videos. That’s enough to shock and disgust anyone.

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Topic: I feel sorry for Ofsmuggar in the sense that she no doubt thought if she did everything right, her life would just fall into place. I think it's fair to say her world is rocked. 

Do you think Anna and her parents really knew what Josh did to his sisters before she married him? I can't decide if I believe Anna that they knew or not. If Anna didn't know, then she was trapped in marriage before she was told, which means in her head she can never leave. If she and her parents really knew beforehand, I don't know what the hell to even say.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 5/17/2021 at 7:52 AM, JoanArc said:

 It’s going to take a lot of prayer and reflection for me to process that name. 

I’m almost certain Jim Bob and Michelle made sure the producers knew nothing about the pond digging.  These are consummate manipulators and liars. I’m halfway surprised they didn’t make him wear a wig to cover the baldness.

One thing that bothers me: why didn’t he just use a burner laptop computer? Seems easier than partitioning the drive, it could be hidden anywhere, easily destroyed if need be, completely self-contained, far away from covenant eyes. Heck, booting from an external thumb drive/ssd/hard drive would have all these advantages as well.  He’s so stupid. 

josh is not very bright...when the investigors showed up at the used car shack where he was working they didn't say WHY they were there ...josh pops out with   why are you here? was someone watching child porn??? 

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oprah was supposed to have the whole duggar family on in 2006...... she got a tip the day before about josh molesting his 4 sisters and the baby sitter  and that the parents (michele and jim bob) had hid this info.....she canceled and had her company call child services............the tipper apparently knew the duggars and borrowed a book from them one day....inside the book was a letter talking about josh molesting his sisters and the baby sitter......It is like joshs  molesting his sisters and baby sitter was meant to come out...........TLC ran their first duggar special  2 years later so how would they  NOT know about this?

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31 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

Do you think Anna and her parents really knew what Josh did to his sisters before she married him? I can't decide if I believe Anna that they knew or not. If Anna didn't know, then she was trapped in marriage before she was told, which means in her head she can never leave. If she and her parents really knew beforehand, I don't know what the hell to even say.

 

 

 

 

 

I've heard (and I don't know how true it is) that she was told the "he only touched them for a second over the clothes " version of the story,  along with him being forgiven,  or something like that. I may be misremembering though. 

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46 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

Do you think Anna and her parents really knew what Josh did to his sisters before she married him? I can't decide if I believe Anna that they knew or not. If Anna didn't know, then she was trapped in marriage before she was told, which means in her head she can never leave. If she and her parents really knew beforehand, I don't know what the hell to even say.

 

 

 

 

 

Anna allegedly barely knew what sex was. I’ll bet she and her family were given some very sanitized version of events. Since all “sin” is equal in their eyes, she may have thought Josh touched a boob over the clothes or something else somewhat less gross than the reality. And of course, she fully believed he repented, so it was all settled now.

and to be fair, even a jaded old lady like me is having trouble wrapping my brain around the current atrocity, so I can’t even imagine how difficult it is for the family - yes, even Ma and Pa, whom I do not like. They have to overcome normal human denial and disbelief here, as well as the cult programming that told them Josh was “cured.”

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I worked with a fellow in Promise Keepers. I thought it was a Catholic Men’s Group inspiring their marriages. 

At least that’s what he led me to believe!
 

 

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Scarlett45

Guidelines for the thread:

Charges have been made public that specifically name possession of Child Sexual Abuse Material, discussion of charges are allowed. However, discussion of victims, or possible victims (and their identities) related to these charges are NOT ALLOWED
We are not here to provide content for ghoulish rubbernecking- there is no need to discuss the graphic details related to these charges, the moderators are not going to police posts for graphic content- posts will be removed and violators will be warned. Do not attempt to circumvent this guideline with spoiler tags.

You MAY discuss the 2015 scandals, and any statement a NOW ADULT victim has made public as previously instructed, but speculation on unnamed victims or minor victims is NOT allowed. 

Jokes, asides, memes etc regarding the sexual assault of anyone, INCLUDING Josh Duggar are not allowed.

As of May 10, 2021: Please respect the privacy of the Reber family, discussion of their social media postings, public statements to the press/court testimony are acceptable. Discussion of their activities on their property, their schedule, where/how they run their errands not acceptable. Again, discussion of social media/court statements/public statements to the press- FINE, "So and So saw the Rebers standing in their yard/grocery shopping/getting gas"- NOT fine. 

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