Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Nysha]

2 hours ago, nightmeri said:

Riddle me this: if Josh confessed in front of an entire congregation why was it kept secret for so long after they became famous? Is it because it was a home church of a few people? Is it because most of the congregation ( according to Jilly muffin) experienced similar happenings in their own homes? Is it showing an actual Christian practice of not gossiping or turning against your brother? Why was Josh protected by EVERYONE?

He confessed his sins and asked forgiveness from God, the Elders, and his victims. The belief is, since Jesus already died for our sins, once we confess and ask forgiveness we are made pure again. I seriously doubt that even the church elders were aware of the magnitude of Josh's actions. They would have gotten the whitewashed version that Josh went into the girls' bedroom while they were sleeping and touched them inappropriately a couple of times and each time he confessed to his parents.

I  bet that if he had kept to just molesting his sisters nobody outside the family would have ever known what happened. The public confession to the entire church was probably what kept the girl's parents from filing charges against him and was aimed at humbling Jim Bob and Michelle as much as it was to punish Josh. 

[nightmeri]

9 hours ago, Zella said:

I think a lot of them operate under a persecution complex, which makes them sensitive to any criticism, no matter how valid, and that further reinforces a sense of groupthink and prioritizes protecting the group over the individuals who have been wronged.  

Thank you Zella, this explanation makes sense!

[Scarlett45]

12 hours ago, nightmeri said:

Riddle me this: if Josh confessed in front of an entire congregation why was it kept secret for so long after they became famous? Is it because it was a home church of a few people? Is it because most of the congregation ( according to Jilly muffin) experienced similar happenings in their own homes? Is it showing an actual Christian practice of not gossiping or turning against your brother? Why was Josh protected by EVERYONE?

If we live in a culture where adult men are protected and supported by entire organizations (for example the Catholic Church, FLDS etc) after it is known they have abused children, I have no problem believing that said community would protect a teenaged Josh. The community was very small, and after what @Nysha said, most people never knew the full magnitude. 

The rumors though were around for YEARS so people were speaking out against Josh they just didn’t have proof. Also for people without any experience with sex abuse, I wouldn’t believe Josh would do such a thing unless one of his victims said so OR tangible proof (like the police report), I believed it was a vile rumor. When light was shed on the abuse in Willias family I wasn’t surprised at all, just heart sick for the kids. 

Edited August 25, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Scarlett45]

20 hours ago, Annb67 said:

Come to think of it, I dont think I have ever seen Jeremy and smug interact nor, unlike jill and her idiot husband, have pictures with them together. Another reason I like Jeremy. I hope we never see Smug or SmugAnna near Felicity.

I hope so too. 

[Albanyguy]

I strongly suspect that Jim Bob and Michelle pressured the daughters and sons-in-law to go on "double dates" with Smuggar and Anna as a means of publicizing that the past issues are over and they're all one big happy family. If Jill and Derick can be seen on social media interacting normally with her molester, then it will eventually be easier to re-integrate him, Anna, Jim Bob and Michelle fully back onto the show (which I think has always been the plan). If that's the case, I'm not surprised that Jill and Derick would go along with it; Jill is one of the biggest Kool-Aid drinkers and neither she nor Derick seem to have much sense anyway. Jeremy would be a different story.

[madpsych78]

Come to think of it, there is no SM (even from Anna) documenting double dates between the Smuggars and Benessa, Joystin, JoKen, or SiRen, who all live much closer to them than JinJer.

[Nysha]

21 hours ago, Annb67 said:

Come to think of it, I dont think I have ever seen Jeremy and smug interact nor, unlike jill and her idiot husband, have pictures with them together. Another reason I like Jeremy. I hope we never see Smug or SmugAnna near Felicity.

This explains a question I had about the grandchildren pictures. The pictures were taken shortly before Felicity was born and I couldn't figure out why they didn't wait a month. All of the other grandchildren live within spitting distance of the TTH, so getting them together could have waited until JinJer was there with their baby. But, if Jeremy has let it be known that he is not about to socialize with Josh or allow him to be around his future children, there was no reason to wait.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Nysha

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, Nysha said:

This explains a question I had about the grandchildren pictures. The pictures were taken shortly before Felicity was born and I couldn't figure out why they didn't wait a month. All of the other grandchildren live within spitting distance of the TTH, so getting them together could have waited until JinJer was there with their baby. But, if Jeremy has let it be known that he is not about to socialize with Josh or allow him to be around his future children, there was no reason to wait.

If anything I feel bad for the M Kids who may be excluded from things because other adults don’t want to associate with Josh. Of course they have each other and plenty of cousins who are allowed to socialize with them etc but Josh’s actions aren’t their fault. 

[ginger90]

Video 

 

 

[truthtalk2014]

2 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Video 

 

 

How is this a mountain that seems impossible?  Your husband sleeping with prostitutes and molesting his sisters is a mountain.  A baby with dairy allergies can be dealt with.  

Anna pisses me off following MEchelle in the use of paper plates. 

Other than that- the baby is really cute. 

[lulu69]

Of all the M kids Mason looks the most like Josh. Poor kid

[Nysha]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

The rumors though were around for YEARS so people were speaking out against Josh they just didn’t have proof. Also for people without any experience with sex abuse, I wouldn’t believe Josh would do such a thing unless one of his victims said so OR tangible proof (like the police report), I believed it was a vile rumor. When light was shed on the abuse in Willias family I wasn’t surprised at all, just heart sick for the kids. 

I also thought the rumors were just that, spread by someone who didn't like the Duggars. Nor was I surprised when Toby Willis was outed as a pedophile. I was horribly shocked to find out that Brenda had known about the abuse and had protected Toby and her way of life instead of her children. While I always thought he was angry and over-controlling, Brenda seemed to be a calming influence on him. Instead, she isn't any better of a mother than Michelle.

[ThinkerBell]

Again with the paper plates. If Anna wants to talk about mountains, let's consider the mountain of unnecessary waste the Duggar families produce every year.

[galaxychaser]

2 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Video 

 

 

Most supermarkets sell vegan pizza or vegan cheese. She can make him pizza using vegan cheese.

[doodlebug]

10 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I also thought the rumors were just that, spread by someone who didn't like the Duggars. Nor was I surprised when Toby Willis was outed as a pedophile. I was horribly shocked to find out that Brenda had known about the abuse and had protected Toby and her way of life instead of her children. While I always thought he was angry and over-controlling, Brenda seemed to be a calming influence on him. Instead, she isn't any better of a mother than Michelle.

I think a lot of us who’ve been around awhile really didn’t think much when we heard the initial rumors of Josh and ‘sin in the camp’.  Remember, these people have such ridiculous notions about sexuality, that it was easy to think a teen aged boy could be vilified for looking at dirty pictures online or making out with a girl at the church picnic.  I think most of us thought Josh’ ‘ sin’ would be something innocuous that we would consider pretty typical teen behavior.

Interesting that the Duggars could minimize and rationalize child molestation while thinking that kissing before marriage is morally wrong.

[jennblevins]

48 minutes ago, galaxychaser said:

Most supermarkets sell vegan pizza or vegan cheese. She can make him pizza using vegan cheese.

If his allergy is protein-based, he also might be able to eat cheese made with goat or sheep’s milk just fine.  As allergies go, milk protein is a ridiculously easy one to deal with. 

[lookeyloo]

2 minutes ago, jennblevins said:

If his allergy is protein-based, he also might be able to eat cheese made with goat or sheep’s milk just fine.  As allergies go, milk protein is a ridiculously easy one to deal with. 

Mr. lookeyloo has a sensitivity to the protein in cow dairy.  He can eat butter.  He also can eat sheep, goat and buffalo cheese.  His sensitivity gives him migraines.  The dr. explained the difference between a sensitivity and an allergy and if I remember correctly, allergy means histamines but I can't remember for sure.  Sometimes if there are no alternatives, such as in pizza, he gets it with a lot of things but no cheese.  It is easy enough to deal with if the food is basic, but, if one wants to use anything with a lot of ingredients one must read every ingredient on a box and have an idea which one will cause a migraine.  And someone else in the household doesn't always do that.  Hint hint.  Anyway, we use very little prepared food anyway.  It is also important to remind people that dairy allergy means cheese too, not just milk. Mr. lookeyloo has almost been done in by well meaning friends and family and I feel like an interrogator although I try to do it nicely or tell him to skip a suspect item.  And restaurant eating becomes interesting also.   "No cheese".  "Is there any kind of dairy in that"   No, just cheese.   Or no, just mozzarella.  Is there any kind of milk or cream in these mashed potatoes?  No, just sour cream, etc.  At home it is a piece of cake.

[jennblevins]

Well, my father always said that, of his food issues, the milk was the easiest to deal with. 

Onions always seemed the hardest, to me. 

[mythoughtis]

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

I also thought the rumors were just that, spread by someone who didn't like the Duggars. Nor was I surprised when Toby Willis was outed as a pedophile. I was horribly shocked to find out that Brenda had known about the abuse and had protected Toby and her way of life instead of her children. While I always thought he was angry and over-controlling, Brenda seemed to be a calming influence on him. Instead, she isn't any better of a mother than Michelle.

Where did  you find that out?  Everything I read after it came out is that she hadn’t known and wasn’t cutting him any slack on it. 

Edit: I just found an article quoting the oldest Willis daughter.  Nysha  is correct. Brenda knew. 

 

Back to Anna... if I switched my son on formula and he was doing well... I’d leave him on it.  I wouldn’t return to breast feeding him. But that’s just me. I  dont really care whether a child is breast or bottle fed... as long as they ARE fed.  

Edited August 26, 2018 by mythoughtis

[Marigold]

@mythoughtis

I think it came out after the oldest daughter gave an interview or wrote a piece?  She said she told her mother etc.  I absolutely read that Brenda knew and did nothing.  It was truly heartbreaking and there is a special place in hell for Brenda. She is equally as sick as Toby even though she didn't physically rape her daughter, she knew it and allowed it. 

I don't want to get off topic but we can move to the Prayer Closet if you want...  (that sounds funny!)

 

 I always assumed  that Josh's sin was pornography.  

Anna has poor awareness of how stupid her post sounds.  After what Anna has been through with that sick fuck of a husband?  I wouldn't be posting about how hard dairy allergies are and what a mountain they are.  It's beyond dumb.  duh, Anna.

[Annb67]

5 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Video 

 

 

Shut the hell up Anna. Over the past three weeks 2 babies whose parents I know personally have found out the kids have cancer, one inoperable. That's a mountain you asshat, not your stupid dairy allergy.

[Lunera]

This post sounds like it was written by Jessa. Anna never posts stuff like this.

[Spencer Hastings]

She’s extremely blessed that of five kids, the biggest health ailment seems to be a “mountain” of a milk allergy.

[EVS]

I agree that Anna should consider herself extremely blessed if this is the worst health issue her children ever face. 

You know which women I think are brave and have courageously climbed a much bigger mountain?  Survivors of childhood sexual abuse like that committed by Anna’s husband. Also, women who have the courage to leave an abusive or philandering husband or a toxic marriage and start over and make a better life for their children. Let us know if you ever decide to tackle that mountain, Anna. 

[lookeyloo]

I wasn’t defending Anna as much as saying I understand a food allergy issue. And onions are a problem too. And of course there are people in much worse situations than she is. And her baby will be fine.  Anybody who has food allergies/sensitivities can have reactions from annoying to life threatening. There is a book called “Please Don’t Kill the Birthday Girl” about a girl who had great sensitivity to several common things to become life threatening and how hard it was unless they brought her own food everywhere. Famous chef Ming Tsai has a child with same issues and apparently wrote a manual for restaurants regarding cross contamination and other things. But if Anna’s baby has something manageable great. Doesn’t take away from the douchebag she is married to and all the other folks who have worse conditions. That is all. 

[EVS]

One of my kids had food allergy issues and my husband has them as well, so I can sympathize with Anna. Food allergies are not fun to deal with.   I just thought that the comparison to an immovable mountain that God wants her to climb was a bit odd and over-dramatic (unless the allergy is life-threatening) given the other issues she and Josh’s victims have had to deal with. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by EVS
Clarity

[bigskygirl]

13 minutes ago, EVS said:

One of my kids had food allergy issues and my husband has them as well, so I can sympathize with Anna. Food allergies are not fun to deal with.   I just thought that the comparison to an immovable mountain that God wants her to climb was a bit odd and over-dramatic (unless the allergy is life-threatening) given the other issues she and Josh’s victims have had to deal with. 

No food allergies for me, but I deal with digestive issues. I feel bad the little guy has food allergies, but in great theme of life it does not compare to what Anna's four sisters-on-law went through at the hands of her husband. If I was Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy, I would want to slap the crap out of Anna for her immovable mountain that God wants her to climb over spiel. I cannot stand Jeremy and Jinger at all, but good for them if they want to stay away from Smuggly Do Wrong and Gullible Naïve Anna. I bet Anna is not happy with the fact Jinger had a daughter because Anna thinks she is so special she had the only Duggar granddaughters. Throw in the fact Jeremy so far has been shown to be the best husband of the bunch, and I bet Anna is slowly blowing steam out of her ears.

[louannems]

When I read about Anna's immovable mountain that god wants her to climb, my first thought was Anna was really alleging to her horrid realization of Josh's porn and affairs.

[Nysha]

29 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

I feel bad the little guy has food allergies, but in great theme of life it does not compare to what Anna's four sisters-on-law went through at the hands of her husband.

I doubt Anna was trying to say Mason's allergy was a harder mountain to climb than being molested by your brother. Social media is very narcissistic. This week I pinched my right pinky, which hurt like hell and created a blood blister that hurt every time I had to write something. My 78-year-old aunt had open heart surgery. We both posted on Facebook and got sympathy. In the great theme of life, my blood blister does not compare to open heart surgery. However, 6 years ago when I was diagnosed with uterine cancer my aunt was posting a tragic tale about the wrong kitchen cupboards arriving and the trials of having to wait another 2 weeks to finish her remodel. Again, not equal but both of us felt it was important to share these tribulations and receive sympathy from our friends and loved ones.

Anna is doing the same thing, plus trying to uplift her fellow Christian mothers. Yes, it's humble bragging that she is a great mom who worked through her son's allergies and still managed to return to 100% breastfeeding. To me it reads as an attempt to move past her husband's issues and forge her own identity, not a slam against her sisters-in-law.

[kokapetl]

15 hours ago, galaxychaser said:

Most supermarkets sell vegan pizza or vegan cheese. She can make him pizza using vegan cheese.

Vegan cheese? Are you serious? 

[sleepysuzy]

If Mason has an actual milk allergy, not an intolerance, I can see that as being a big deal. From the anaphylactic allergy groups I've been in, many have said that milk was harder to avoid than peanuts and nuts. 

I admire her tenacity in getting back to breastfeeding, as well. I had to exclusively pump for 4-5 months with each of my youngest two babies before they were able to nurse, and it is a lot of work and very time consuming. I know "Fed is best" is the anti-mom-shaming mantra regarding infant feeding, but considering the very low rate of breastfeeding in the US, I always want to give credit to the mom's who do breastfeed, especially when they had extra obstacles. 

[kokapetl]

On 24/08/2018 at 8:07 AM, kalamac said:

I could be remembering this wrong, so anyone who knows better, feel free to correct this, but I believe Jinger has said that she knew she was sinner when she was 8, and Joy has said when she was 5, which incidentally are the ages they were when the molestations took place, indicating to me, that they were made to feel like it was at least partially their fault.

 

On 24/08/2018 at 7:29 PM, MargeGunderson said:

Apparently Josh was forced to confess to his “sins” before the church, not just the elders, so it was common knowledge among at least the congregation. Probably not the details but enough to know that he deserved a shaved head as punishment. Given what Gothard and followers has written that very much puts at least part of the blame on women for, well, everything really, it doesn’t stretch the imagination that they would blame (at least) the non-relative female for having a role in Josh’s “temptation.” 

But the threat was only made to Josh. None of the girls seemed to have been guilt tripped into anything re: hair. 

[Nysha]

10 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

But the threat was only made to Josh. None of the girls seemed to have been guilt tripped into anything re: hair. 

No, but if Jim Bob & Michelle followed the Gothard playbook for how to deal with an older brother molesting younger sisters, then they believed part of the cause was because the girls did not dress modestly enough and did not behave appropriately when wearing dresses. Gothard also believes that allow boys to change baby girls' diapers is enough to cause them to have a lust for their sisters. The man was a complete sicko. IBLP Literature on Sexual Abuse

[Westiepeach]

19 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

Vegan cheese? Are you serious? 

I have actually seen it in my grocery store. I have no idea what it is made from. I just walk on by. But I have seen it.

[kokapetl]

2 minutes ago, Nysha said:

No, but if Jim Bob & Michelle followed the Gothard playbook for how to deal with an older brother molesting younger sisters, then they believed part of the cause was because the girls did not dress modestly enough and did not behave appropriately when wearing dresses. Gothard also believes that allow boys to change baby girls' diapers is enough to cause them to have a lust for their sisters. The man was a complete sicko. IBLP Literature on Sexual Abuse

They girls were plenty modest in those days, and their fashion evolution since then suggest they didn’t feel they were immodest, they’ve actually all really eased up.

[galaxychaser]

44 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

Vegan cheese? Are you serious? 

Seen it it in Trader Joe’s and Shoprite. I think it’s made with soybeans. I never bought it.

[Jynnan tonnix]

6 minutes ago, galaxychaser said:

Seen it it in Trader Joe’s and Shoprite. I think it’s made with soybeans. I never bought it.

I have a few vegan friends and relatives. Yes, there are a number of vegan cheese alternatives out  there. Also vegan yogurts and whatnot. My cousin and her husband owned a bakery in England which they mostly transitioned to entirely vegan over the years (all the ingredients used in the baking was vegan, and there were vegan pizza options, though they did keep some of the pizzs with real cheese, as well as keeping some sandwich fillings such as egg salad and tuna). It's not quite the same thing to my palate, though the vegan versions of things do keep getting better all the time.

[queenanne]

Well, Mason looks well fed despite his sensitivities, with his round little limbs, so that's good.

[graefin]

49 minutes ago, galaxychaser said:

Seen it it in Trader Joe’s and Shoprite. I think it’s made with soybeans. I never bought it.

There are tons and tons of vegan cheeses on the market now. Daiya was one of the first and is actually made out of something other than soy. Chao is my favorite. But the best way to eat pizza IMO is marinara style ?

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

No, but if Jim Bob & Michelle followed the Gothard playbook for how to deal with an older brother molesting younger sisters, then they believed part of the cause was because the girls did not dress modestly enough and did not behave appropriately when wearing dresses. Gothard also believes that allow boys to change baby girls' diapers is enough to cause them to have a lust for their sisters. The man was a complete sicko. IBLP Literature on Sexual Abuse

Gothard is a sicko, most assuredly. But I’ve been surprised at the number of mainstream people that don’t think a male person (other than a Bio father) should do any caregiving to a baby/child/disabled person/elderly person because of fears of molestation or abuse.

On one hand it makes me sad to think that abuse by caregivers is so high that people would think this (never mind you can be molested by a woman), on the other hand it makes me think that this is a GOOD WAY of burdening women with all the family caregiving duties because men are just so lustful they will rape grandma if she needs help bathing!

[Marshmallow Mollie]

Anna’s post reads to me as someone who has never experienced hardship, but thinks they have. Yet, she has experienced an unimaginable hardship! The disconnect is weird.

Formula is expensive, so I can see why she would be motivated to resume breastfeeding. I am sure pumping and dumping or pumping and donating, all the while changing her entire diet, was hard.

22 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Gothard is a sicko, most assuredly. But I’ve been surprised at the number of mainstream people that don’t think a male person (other than a Bio father) should do any caregiving to a baby/child/disabled person/elderly person because of fears of molestation or abuse.

On one hand it makes me sad to think that abuse by caregivers is so high that people would think this (never mind you can be molested by a woman), on the other hand it makes me think that this is a GOOD WAY of burdening women with all the family caregiving duties because men are just so lustful they will rape grandma if she needs help bathing!

My friend’s husband thought it was inappropriate for him to change his daughter’s diapers or to bathe her. Soooooooo I only bring my kids over to her house when the husband is at work. Something about that is too weird for me!

[bigskygirl]

Anna has been told to forgive Smuggly for what he did. He has confess his sins, got help, and has prayed God will forgive him for what he did. She has been told she married Smugs for better or worse, and she is suppose to love and support him no matter what.

[Obsidian]

4 hours ago, kokapetl said:

Vegan cheese? Are you serious? 

Most of what is available here is coconut based. It can also be made out of nuts, soy, etc. If you want something that exactly resembles cheese, you'll be disappointed, but if you want something that does the same kind of thing and tastes similar, it's nice. Before that, or probably still, nutritional yeast flakes were used to make sauces and things with a cheese flavour.

[xwordfanatik]

20 hours ago, lulu69 said:

Of all the M kids Mason looks the most like Josh. Poor kid

Hopefully he will outgrow it.

[Rabbittron]

4 hours ago, galaxychaser said:

Seen it it in Trader Joe’s and Shoprite. I think it’s made with soybeans. I never bought it.

I just have to say that you just made Mommytron sad. After she got divorced we moved back east and that was her favorite grocery store. 

[galaxychaser]

28 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

I just have to say that you just made Mommytron sad. After she got divorced we moved back east and that was her favorite grocery store. 

Which one?

[Mindthinkr]

7 minutes ago, galaxychaser said:

Which one?

My bet is on Shoprite. 

[Rabbittron]

2 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

My bet is on Shoprite. 

You're 100% correct. 

 

10 minutes ago, galaxychaser said:

Which one?

Shoprite of course. 

[Wishing Well]

Aside from having to put a baby on food restrictions, I don’t have much sympathy.  I’m chinese.  Most of us are lactose intolerant.  We also don’t eat much dairy in China.  A friend of mine grew up allergic to gluten, eggs, shellfish, nuts, dairy, yeast, berries, and a handful of other things.  She was white as wonder bread, but learned how to cook many many asian foods that were rice based instead.  

[BetyBee]

I wonder if Anna saw a doctor to come up with the plan to figure out Mason's allergy and to get back to breastfeeding.  I think she posted because she's proud of the effort she made for her son.  I choose to leave Josh out of the equation and give her kudos for using her brain.  I don't read to much into the mountain comment.  I think it was just a figure of speech.  I'm not a Duggar fan - this just doesn't bother me.