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The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

frenchtoast

By frenchtoast
in Counting On

cm-soupsipper
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Closure Notice: This Thread is now closed due to the name (and much of the posting within it). Please be mindful going forward by naming topics in a way that invites a healthy community conversation. If you name something for a cheap laugh, this thread may be closed later because it encourages discrimination and harm. 

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Spencer Hastings
Spencer Hastings

Tough crowd!  She's wearing modern shoes with closed toes, pants, and a shirt that literally calls back to her family's ridiculous rules and there are still 35 things wrong with what she's doing. 

Churchhoney
Churchhoney

That's okay. He's forgotten it a few times himself. 

GeeGolly
GeeGolly

My push presents after having my kids were my kids. 

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SMama

SMama

(edited)

I wonder how Jill, Jessa and Joy feel about Jinger’s lack of arched back pictures. How will they react when Jinger makes it through the pregnancy without skin tight shirts, stretched ankle length skirts, mustard cardigan, and flip flops. I bet all three will be so proud of Jinger wearing true modern modest. Yup, all three will be happy for Jinger.

 

JK ?

Edited by SMama
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awaken

awaken

2 hours ago, SMama said:

I wonder how Jill, Jessa and Joy feel about Jinger’s lack of arched back pictures. How will they react when Jinger makes it through the pregnancy without skin tight shirts, stretched ankle length skirts, mustard cardigan, and flip flops. I bet all three will be so proud of Jinger wearing true modern modest. Yup, all three will be happy for Jinger.

 

JK ?

Well, let’s wait and see. I’m not quite ready to assume she actually is going to go through this tastefully. I hope so. 

mynextmistake

mynextmistake

On 1/19/2018 at 2:19 PM, Christina87 said:

I feel that speaks badly to him, too. I wonder what his previous relationships with girls he's presumably met in college have been like. Maybe there has been a controlling pattern that those girls didn't like. 

I'm still holding out hope that Jana will meet an educated guy, a veterinarian who lives on a farm and loves working with his hands. However, i feel like the fantasy guy sees something in Jana beyond the uneducated woman she is. In my fantasy, he realizes she has intelligence and curiosity, and is in awe of all she is already doing (raising children, gardening, etc). Jeremy has explicitly stated that he wanted a meek wife, and clearly enjoys teaching her amazing things like how to make a cup of coffee. Jana's fantasy guy sees her as an equal, or at least potential equal. 

Well, but in real life, Jinger has her own home, a loving relationship, fashionable clothes, the opportunity to travel, and access to books and secular media while Jana is stuck in the TTH raising other people’s kids and wearing Salvation Army maxi-skirts. That fantasy guy who sees her as an equal doesn’t seem to be doing her any favors. Jana should feel free to stay unmarried if she chooses, but I don’t think the argument that she’s better off than Jinger because she’s holding out for a guy who she’s realistically never going to meet unless she starts looking outside fundie circles is particularly convincing. 

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

From Jinger's perspective she must feel she's been swept up into a fairy tale. Jill had the same fairy tale only "over seas", which failed and Jinger got the one she wanted - "big cities" and is, so far, succeeding.

Jessa married the first cute man boy that showed interest and Joy married the boy next door. Austin is probably the closest to what Jana states she wants. It seems Joy got Jana's dream man.

Jessa got her dream man but she must have forgot to pray beyond cute. Joy got a good fit and Jill probably thinks she does.

But if Jeremy is a nice guy and caring husband then I put Jinger in the win column.

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Marigold

Marigold

(edited)

I still haven't finished jeremy's 2 hour radio interview from 2015. 

He spoke a bit about his father's ministry to the Amish.  He said, loose quotes here,

"most people think the Amish have a beautiful peaceful life, and they do. What they don't realize is their religion is only works based" 

 

I think we discussed Chuck's ministry to the Amish and couldn't quite get a handle on the point of it exactly. Well, Jeremy explained it. Whether we agree or not is opinion.  But that is Chuck's motivation for choosing the Amish to mission to. They have a works based salvation and Chuck is sharing a grace based salvation. 

Edited by Marigold
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lascuba

lascuba

1 minute ago, Marigold said:

I still haven't finished jeremy's 2 hour radio interview from 2015. 

He spoke a bit about his father's ministry to the Amish.  He said, loose quotes here,

"most people think the Amish have a beautiful peaceful life, and they do. What they don't realize is their religion is only works based" 

 

I think we discussed Chuck's ministry to the Amish and couldn't quite get a handle on the point of it exactly. Well, Jeremy explained it. Whether you agree or not is opinion.  But that is Chuck's motivation for choosing the Amish to mission to. They have a words based salvation and Chuck is sharing a grace based salvation. 

I'm no biblical scholar and think all the arguments over the minutiae of spiritual stuff that no one will actually definitively have the answer to are absurd, but something that really bugs me about the whole "works v faith" nonsense...

Why, exactly, is "works based" a problem if those people doing the work also believe that belief in Jesus is mandatory? I get that grace people disagree that works are necessary to get into Christian heaven of whatever, but it looks to me like they're arguing against doing any works at all out of sheer meanness. How else to explain how strongly they argue this point? It would be one thing if the works people were constantly bitching about the grace people and the latter were being defensive--and hell, for all I know, maybe they are--but the way they go about it, it's like they believe that doing works automatically means that grace cannot be had.

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Marigold

Marigold

(edited)

@lascuba

I think, the "grace based" people feel that "works based" people are in serious error and risking eternal salvation. 

Their point:

You cannot work your way to heaven doing good things. By trying to do this, you have negated Jesus' work on the cross. You have faith in your own good works and don't show faith in the miraculous work that Jesus did, which is take the sins of the world upon Him.  You should do good works because of your salvation, not to earn salvation. 

 

So, to tie this into Chuck Vuolo...Chuck sees the Amish life is a very strict and austere life, governed by very specific rules of conduct.  Those rules are designed to get them into Heaven. Chuck comes along and says "hey, brother, it's not necessary to worry about XYZ. I'm here to set you free from that! The good news is that your sins were paid for on the cross. Accept Jesus and his atonement on the cross! Live free in Christ!"

Did that explain it better?  We can move to the Religion Forum if anyone wants to discuss further. 

Edited by Marigold
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lascuba

lascuba

52 minutes ago, Marigold said:

@lascuba

I think, the "grace based" people feel that "works based" people are in serious error and risking eternal salvation. 

Their point:

You cannot work your way to heaven doing good things. By trying to do this, you have negated Jesus' work on the cross. You have faith in your own good works and don't show faith in the miraculous work that Jesus did, which is take the sins of the world upon Him.  You should do good works because of your salvation, not to earn salvation. 

 

So, to tie this into Chuck Vuolo...Chuck sees the Amish life is a very strict and austere life, governed by very specific rules of conduct.  Those rules are designed to get them into Heaven. Chuck comes along and says "hey, brother, it's not necessary to worry about XYZ. I'm here to set you free from that! The good news is that your sins were paid for on the cross. Accept Jesus and his atonement on the cross! Live free in Christ!"

Did that explain it better?  We can move to the Religion Forum if anyone wants to discuss further. 

That makes sense to me, thank you.

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Natalie68

Natalie68

22 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Well, someone else covered for Jeremy yesterday. They're still in ATL. And the first picture of Jinger's barely visible bump.

I am pleasantly surprised she hasn't gone the way of her sisters/Anna.  She is wearing normal clothes and her shirt/dress isn't so tight you can see her linea nigra.  Dare I say it, she is modest?!

Churchhoney

Churchhoney

5 hours ago, Marigold said:

I still haven't finished jeremy's 2 hour radio interview from 2015. 

He spoke a bit about his father's ministry to the Amish.  He said, loose quotes here,

"most people think the Amish have a beautiful peaceful life, and they do. What they don't realize is their religion is only works based" 

 

I think we discussed Chuck's ministry to the Amish and couldn't quite get a handle on the point of it exactly. Well, Jeremy explained it. Whether we agree or not is opinion.  But that is Chuck's motivation for choosing the Amish to mission to. They have a works based salvation and Chuck is sharing a grace based salvation. 

Thanks for doing the research on this one. No surprise, I guess, now that you've spelled it out. The Amish are, in other words, just like the evil Catholics. They just lack the vestments and the stained glass -- so you can't pin idolatry on them. But they're works-based Christians.

His theology is consistent. I'll give him that.

But since the works-based Christians also do believe in faith, I can never figure out why the grace-based people can't just leave them alone.

It's not as if the works-based Christians are going to do more harm to the world than other people. And if you're a works-based Christian who has faith, are you actually in imminent danger of going to hell, just because you believe that it's important for you to do good works that spring from your faith and just because you may never have experienced one of those magic-moment heart-conversions and convictions of being irredeemably steeped in sin that the grace-based people talk of? The rationale for ardently pursuing them to get them to agree that works in God's name are meaningless vanity and a ticket to hell continues to escape me. 

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

2 hours ago, Marigold said:

 

 

 

So, to tie this into Chuck Vuolo...Chuck sees the Amish life is a very strict and austere life, governed by very specific rules of conduct.  Those rules are designed to get them into Heaven. Chuck comes along and says "hey, brother, it's not necessary to worry about XYZ. I'm here to set you free from that! The good news is that your sins were paid for on the cross. Accept Jesus and his atonement on the cross! Live free in Christ!"

Did that explain it better?  We can move to the Religion Forum if anyone wants to discuss further. 

I'd buy this if I thought that Chuck Vuolo and his ilk were really doing anything except trying to prove to others that they;'re the best beloved of the correct Jesus. I suppose this is because everybody I've ever known personally who goes around haranguing people about this has been kind of an arrogant little shit who likes the sound of its own voice and virtually never actually does good works out of salvation because it really shows no interest in good works at all. Chuck and his family and friends may be the exceptions to this. I hope so, but if they are, I think they really are an exception. 

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Marigold

Marigold

(edited)
1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Thanks for doing the research on this one. No surprise, I guess, now that you've spelled it out. The Amish are, in other words, just like the evil Catholics. They just lack the vestments and the stained glass -- so you can't pin idolatry on them. But they're works-based Christians.

His theology is consistent. I'll give him that.

But since the works-based Christians also do believe in faith, I can never figure out why the grace-based people can't just leave them alone.

It's not as if the works-based Christians are going to do more harm to the world than other people. And if you're a works-based Christian who has faith, are you actually in imminent danger of going to hell, just because you believe that it's important for you to do good works that spring from your faith and just because you may never have experienced one of those magic-moment heart-conversions and convictions of being irredeemably steeped in sin that the grace-based people talk of? The rationale for ardently pursuing them to get them to agree that works in God's name are meaningless vanity and a ticket to hell continues to escape me. 

just to clarify, not arguing with you, Churchie. I avoid arguing on social media/forums etc. Too much stress.

Jeremy's interview really wasn't terrible. I was surprised at how articulate he was.  He comes across as kinda goofy on the show and social media. 

 

I believe Chuck would see it this way... (Regarding a evangelical Christian view of salvation, not discussing other faiths)

If you are depending on good works only to gain salvation then you really don't have true faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus means that you believe 100% that the sins of the world were carried by him and hung on the cross with him.  Nothing you can do can ever be good enough to gain salvation because Christ was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. 

Works in God's name is not an issue for Chuck.  It's depending on those works, your own works, to be good enough to enter heaven.  

As for just having faith that God exists and that is good enough, they will quote the verse that says "even the demons believe in God". They want to see people come to Jesus, acknowledge that you can never be good enough to enter the kingdom on heaven and believe that Jesus washed us whiter than snow with his blood on the cross. (and there's the annoying Duggar Blood hymn they always sing!)

Chuck will continue to minister to the Amish because he believes that their entire belief system is based on "being good enough" when we can never be good enough...it is through Jesus and his grace that we are made clean and holy, able to enter the presence of God. 

Edited by Marigold
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

4 hours ago, Marigold said:

just to clarify, not arguing with you, Churchie. I avoid arguing on social media/forums etc. Too much stress.

Jeremy's interview really wasn't terrible. I was surprised at how articulate he was.  He comes across as kinda goofy on the show and social media. 

 

I believe Chuck would see it this way... (Regarding a evangelical Christian view of salvation, not discussing other faiths)

If you are depending on good works only to gain salvation then you really don't have true faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus means that you believe 100% that the sins of the world were carried by him and hung on the cross with him.  Nothing you can do can ever be good enough to gain salvation because Christ was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. 

Works in God's name is not an issue for Chuck.  It's depending on those works, your own works, to be good enough to enter heaven.  

As for just having faith that God exists and that is good enough, they will quote the verse that says "even the demons believe in God". They want to see people come to Jesus, acknowledge that you can never be good enough to enter the kingdom on heaven and believe that Jesus washed us whiter than snow with his blood on the cross. (and there's the annoying Duggar Blood hymn they always sing!)

Chuck will continue to minister to the Amish because he believes that their entire belief system is based on "being good enough" when we can never be good enough...it is through Jesus and his grace that we are made clean and holy, able to enter the presence of God. 

Yep, I get it!

Marigold

Marigold

(edited)
10 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Yep, I get it!

I just have no idea why Chuck would even bother with the Amish.  There so many more people who need help and might benefit from some religion or support system or something.

The Amish???  Kinda head scratcher!

 

DUh, just realized. Attention seeking. If he worked with substance abusers, everyone would say "oh, that's nice".  But say you have a ministry to the Amish and everyone, including us, has a few questions and wants to talk about it.  Chuck likes to be "special" with his "unique ministry" .   Chuckles is a little kooky, maybe? 

Edited by Marigold
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

37 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I just have no idea why Chuck would even bother with the Amish.  There so many more people who need help and might benefit from some religion or support system or something.

The Amish???  Kinda head scratcher!

 

DUh, just realized. Attention seeking. If he worked with substance abusers, everyone would say "oh, that's nice".  But say you have a ministry to the Amish and everyone, including us, has a few questions and wants to talk about it.  Chuck likes to be "special" with his "unique ministry" .   Chuckles is a little kooky, maybe? 

Yep, that's my question, too. But I'd bet that you're right on the money with the "attention seeking" thing. It's so weird that it even gets press. And, presto, so does Chuck! 

doodlebug

doodlebug

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Yep, that's my question, too. But I'd bet that you're right on the money with the "attention seeking" thing. It's so weird that it even gets press. And, presto, so does Chuck! 

Oh, absolutely!  The fact that the Amish are so identifiable as 'other' and 'different' and that they have attracted media attention for their lifestyle is what caused Chuck to single them out for attention.  It also calls attention to the fact that, although they have faith, it is the WRONG kind of faith and they are still going to hell.  People think of the Amish as being very religious and devoted to their beliefs (I live in Amish country and know better, they're a lot like the rest of us, some very devout, others not so much), which I think makes them even more attractive to those wanting converts.  After all, if even people whose beliefs cause them to set themselves apart from the rest of us aren't going to heaven, obviously everyone needs the help of Chuck and those like him.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)

I have read, however, that there is a lot of sentiment among some of the more strident grace-alone people that the faithful Amish have very very wrong beliefs and it seems that at least some may have quietly tried to do these kinds of missions by stealth among the practicing Amish. ]

A couple of years ago I read one article in a small Pennsylvania paper about some Amish really resenting that.

Chuck may not do that. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if some people who say that they are only trying to help the fallen-away Amish also do a little stealth missionarying among the non-fallen-away when they get a chance. There are certainly quite a few blogs and such out there in which some conservative Protestants blast the theology, for example, so it would kind of surprise me if nobody tried to act on it.  (Other blogs push back against that position, too, however -- it's clearly a hot topic among some.) Converting Protestants to the correct Protestant belief is a real favorite of some missionaries since of course that seems like an easier job than converting atheists or Muslims or such. 

Here's a blog arguing for the "the Amish are so wrong" thing that @Marigold mentioned up above as being Chuck V's motivation (and also including some of the argument against that view): 

https://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/why-the-amish-reject-assurance-of-salvation/

“I realize that in an age of individualism, and an evangelicalism that stresses a private experience of salvation, Amish faith of communal solidarity in discipleship makes no sense, and the judgments you make about “works salvation” seem totally right to you.” The professor encouraged me to take “time to understand how an Anabaptist theology such as the Amish profess expresses a radically different way of claiming the grace of God as a community of the Spirit.”

“One of the virtues Amish prize,” the professor wrote, “is humility–humility as a practice not as a nice attitude–and one aspect of that humility is to make no arrogant claims about their confidence of special status with God. An Amish bishop was visited by a new minister in the neighborhood who was quite fundamental and inquired repeatedly whether the bishop was saved. Finally he asked, ‘Are you truly born again? Do you know for certain that you are saved?’ The bishop answered, ‘You are asking the wrong person. I will give you the names of people who know me well, of persons with whom I have differed, of my sharpest critics and you can go ask them whether I am saved.’ That is Amish humility.”

Edited by Churchhoney
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Arwen Evenstar

Arwen Evenstar

5 hours ago, Absolom said:

Good old gospel pride in action.  The Amish approach has much to recommend it.

Amish people are humble, quiet, and clean.  They do not like vanity, pridefulness, boasting, laziness, etc.  Looking at you, Jessa. There’s lots of rules, but they know WHY they do what they do.  

Nancy, are you listening?  Send the Duggettes to an Amish home. Their troweled on makeup and hours of styling their hair would drive Amish people nuts. No electricity and no mirrors. 

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PikaScrewChu

PikaScrewChu

On 1/23/2018 at 4:20 PM, SMama said:

Let’s not forget raccoon eyes until recently.

I remember watching something on countries where the youth were fairly isolated from other countries but were fascinated by those cultures. So they would adopt what they assumed that particular country's culture thought was hip and cool based on the fairly little knowledge they had.

The J'slaves had some exposure to what was "hip and cool" but not much. Jinger strikes me as someone that probably would have ditched the raccoon eyes, crunchy perm, and spray tan had she had access to more media and such. Jill is/was very much the same way. Jill had some weird interpretation of the hippie and boho style going on.

  • Love 5
gunderda

gunderda

On 1/20/2018 at 8:53 AM, DangerousMinds said:

Exactly! If I were to pay for a conference, I would expect expert, professional speakers with years of experience and education under their belts.

I'm not sorry, but I am surprised at just how silly he looks.

eh... then you'd probably be disappointed at A LOT of conferences lol  I'm sure there are some who can afford to bring in that level of speakers for their entire conference but most organizations can not.  I work pretty closely on one for my employer and while it's not national level by any means, it's pretty large for a regional 2-state conference (with a really BORING topic I might add).  90% of our speakers don't get paid to do it (the money goes to keynotes) and we have a wide range of seasoned professionals and newbies trying to get their name out there.  And sometimes the newbies are great and sometime they're terrible but even some of the seasoned professionals start to become horrible years after they were once great. 

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Catfin

Catfin

14 hours ago, gunderda said:

eh... then you'd probably be disappointed at A LOT of conferences lol  I'm sure there are some who can afford to bring in that level of speakers for their entire conference but most organizations can not.  I work pretty closely on one for my employer and while it's not national level by any means, it's pretty large for a regional 2-state conference (with a really BORING topic I might add).  90% of our speakers don't get paid to do it (the money goes to keynotes) and we have a wide range of seasoned professionals and newbies trying to get their name out there.  And sometimes the newbies are great and sometime they're terrible but even some of the seasoned professionals start to become horrible years after they were once great. 

Even the keynotes can be questionable. I attended a large national conference a few years back where the keynote was a washed up sports guy whose name you'd recognize. He'd admittedly been boozing it up on top of pain meds and was a rambling, inappropriate hot mess. They essentially had to yank him off the stage .  

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zoomama

zoomama

(edited)
20 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Aaaaand way we go!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BebUiurFAKqZ/

Not sure what the picture didn't post. Must be a site glitch.

 

this is one of the comments:    

'Yay can’t wait to see your beautiful baby!!! I am due in july 26, 14 weeks! @jingervuolo congratulations ??'

~~~~

i looked on a due date calculator using that 14 weeks and went backwards and got this for jinger:

Your baby is due on:

Thursday, July 19, 2018

Right now you're 15 weeks pregnant

Your baby is about the size of an apple

Edited by zoomama
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yogi2014L

yogi2014L

10 minutes ago, Lunera said:

And she's actually wearing a real maternity shirt not a belly hugging t-shirt that stops right under her belly.

Still don't know why her sisters don't invest in proper maternity clothes. If I got pregnant that's the first thing I'd be exited to shop for.

Maternity clothes suck for the most part. They all look the same.  haha! I am 19 weeks and just started wearing mine. So far its been $$$ and I have to primarily shop online ( despite living in Chicago suburbs- most stores dont have a ton of the selection out of the floor- its probably way harder in NWA!) 

 But I agree that they should wear proper clothes! All my shirts started getting ' short' and it just is uncomfortable and not to mention it doesn't look good. It really doesn't make sense they are so reluctant to purchase decent maternity clothing considering they will be pregnant for like 20 years. If I was planning on 5+ pregnancies, I would be buying really nice, durable, comfy maternity clothes. 

  • Love 11
PradaKitty

PradaKitty

The Duggar girls do have the option of doing what my mother did way back in the dark ages when she was pregnant with me - she would just buy clothes  1-2 suzes larger than she normally wore. Worked like a charm!  After I was born a few people (who she saw on daily basis) told her they didn’t even know she had been pregnant- and I was a 10 pounder at birth!’

  • Love 8
cm-soupsipper
Message added by cm-soupsipper,

Closure Notice: This Thread is now closed due to the name (and much of the posting within it). Please be mindful going forward by naming topics in a way that invites a healthy community conversation. If you name something for a cheap laugh, this thread may be closed later because it encourages discrimination and harm. 

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