Party of One: Unpopular TV Opinions

[Neurochick]

My UO:  I don't get why people especially here, go so hard on female characters.  Male characters can do anything, but some of us seem to go extra hard on women.  This is especially true of Chicago Fire, where the Gabby hate, to me, is starting to border on racism.  Maybe some folks don't like the idea of a non white woman being the leading female on a show, or her character being married to the leading male character (one of them) on the show.  Maybe they'd feel more comfortable if Gabby were blonde and blue eyed?  I don't get it.

[Annber03]

I've never seen "Chicago Fire", so can't speak to that situation specifically, but I definitely agree with your general sentiment, yeah. I see people dump on female characters a lot in some of my fandoms, too. I'm especially tired of the "Mary Sue" accusations, because I think that term's gotten thrown around so much now that it's lost any sort of real meaning it may have once had. 

And I'll also fully agree that WOC can get it especially hard. (Though, that said, there are people in the "Criminal Minds" fandom who can't stand JJ, and she's blonde and blue-eyed, so...)

[Wiendish Fitch]

If a female character is nice? She's "boring". Not nice? "Unlikable". Useful and talented? "Mary Sue". Not useful and talented? "Waste of space". Assertive? "Bitch". Not assertive? "Weak". 

I'm not saying there's never credence when criticizing a female character, but sometimes it sure feels like they can't win.

[bilgistic]

I really hope the success of Black Panther will bring some diversity to television programming. The utter surprise that Hollywood has had is like, "Well, huh! Black people like media that features them. What do you know?!" Like, no shit, Sherlock. People want to be heard and represented. We've had over 100 years of movies and TV featuring every possible personality type, job and talent of the white man in the lead role. That's plenty.

[festivus]

It makes me think about the imo undeserved criticism Tulip got in the first season of Preacher for being underdeveloped, when the male characters were no better developed. She's also played by a black actress and the comic character is white.

[kathyk24]

6 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I've never seen "Chicago Fire", so can't speak to that situation specifically, but I definitely agree with your general sentiment, yeah. I see people dump on female characters a lot in some of my fandoms, too. I'm especially tired of the "Mary Sue" accusations, because I think that term's gotten thrown around so much now that it's lost any sort of real meaning it may have once had. 

And I'll also fully agree that WOC can get it especially hard. (Though, that said, there are people in the "Criminal Minds" fandom who can't stand JJ, and she's blonde and blue-eyed, so...)

I think Mary Sue is code for any female character I don't like. I've never understood the hatred JJ gets.

[Annber03]

6 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

I think Mary Sue is code for any female character I don't like. I've never understood the hatred JJ gets.

Pretty much. 

And agreed. I don't get it, either. I've no problem with her. 

(There's also the hatred any new woman who replaced a previous female team member used to get from certain corners of the fandom, too, that drives me nuts. I've only seen a handful of episodes of "NCIS", but from what I've seen of that fandom, the same issue happens there, too. 'Cause apparently it's totally the new woman's fault that the actress who was there before is leaving, and not, y'know, the network forcing her out, or the actress herself choosing to leave the show, or anything like that.)

[Guest]

14 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

I think Mary Sue is code for any female character I don't like.

I agree,  I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why BSG fandom was convinced that Starbuck was a Mary Sue.  It didn't seem like the definition fit.  It seemed like fandom just didn't like her.

Of course, now they have created sub versions of Mary Sue that fit any circumstance where the female character excels at something.  Mary Sue doesn't have to be obnoxiously perfect anymore.  She just needs to be the best at one thing, even if she sucks at everything else.

[theredhead77]

I'm so glad this topic is being discussed! The amount of hate towards certain women (Gabby, Starbuck, Ziva, Wonder-freeking-Woman) because they are more than competent at their job - they excel or are the best at what they do, drives me crazy. Also: it's fiction, suspend reality for a bit and enjoy the ride.

Which brings me to my table of one - when I watch a TV show, I suspend reality for a bit. There's no way Jack Bauer could have got from the Burbank airport to the LA Harbor in 30 minutes in the middle of the day. Or a L&O case be investigated, and tried in 60 minutes, or everything in SciFi, etc... 

[Annber03]

3 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Which brings me to my table of one - when I watch a TV show, I suspend reality for a bit. There's no way Jack Bauer could have got from the Burbank airport to the LA Harbor in 30 minutes in the middle of the day. Or a L&O case be investigated, and tried in 60 minutes, or everything in SciFi, etc... 

Yep. I'll join you at that table. I know full well that the way some characters' jobs are portrayed on the shows I watch are unrealistic and not always accurate. But I personally don't care. The realism aspect is not why I'm watching those shows, so I can overlook a lot of that stuff a little easier as a result. Plus, I think some people are just much better at expressing and explaining their critiques about that aspect of things than I am anyway, so I figure I'll let them handle discussing that stuff, and I'll just sit back and leave it at that. 

I do get where it would be quite frustrating for people to see their jobs portrayed inaccurately on TV, though. And I do appreciate hearing stories from people who do work in certain fields on TV, if only to get an idea of what their job is like for real. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, theredhead77 said:

The amount of hate towards certain women (Gabby, Starbuck, Ziva, Wonder-freeking-Woman) because they are more than competent at their job

I’m going to step in and defend myself for my full on hate for Ziva. Which had nothing to do with her being competent at her job, but that skills that other agents had before she came on the show, suddenly didn’t have them because Ziva had them all; that she got Gibbs’s trust from day one without earning it; that Tony, who was a good and competent agent, was made to look like a buffoon; both were good agents and there was no need to make him look like an idiot in comparison to her. And when she fucked up (and she did), she never had to pay for it; on the contrary, the ones she betrayed and lied to had to get over it already as if they were the ones who were in the wrong. I’m an equal opportunity hater-both genders get my hate if in my opinion, they deserve it.

That all said, I’d rather have her back than the ones the show has put on since then. But I also understand that Cote wanted to leave and that was her choice and don’t blame her for leaving.

Edited March 25, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[theredhead77]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’m going to step in and defend myself for my full on hate for Ziva. Which had nothing to do with her being competent at her job

Then your reasons are different than my post about strong women being bashed...

...and the rabid Ziva hate that derailed every episode thread is one of the reasons I stayed away from the NCIS forums. 

[Nordly Beaumont]

I don't need a "throw away line" to explain why a character isn't on a show that week. For example, if Lily isn't with Mitch and Cam, I can assume she's safe and sound somewhere else. As a viewer I don't need to know where.

[SmithW6079]

4 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

Or a L&O case be investigated, and tried in 60 minutes

That's because each case takes place over a period of days or weeks. The Law & Orders don't take place in real time. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by SmithW6079

[theredhead77]

25 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

That's because each case takes place over a period of days or weeks. The Law & Orders don't take place in real time. 

If they did each episode would be months or years long. 

[biakbiak]

6 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

If they did each episode would be months or years long. 

Right but they acknowledge it with the time and date stamps before each part.

[theredhead77]

2 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Right but they acknowledge it with the time and date stamps before each part.

I've never noticed time jump time stamps on any flavor of L&O.

[biakbiak]

Just now, theredhead77 said:

I've never noticed time jump time stamps on any flavor of L&O.

There are several on every episode of the original Law and Order that list the location and date of the scene.

[theredhead77]

33 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

There are several on every episode of the original Law and Order that list the location and date of the scene.

It's a moot point to me since like I said earlier, I suspend reality when watching TV. I'm not hyper focused on time stamps or how long the case and trial would really take since it's all wrapped up in an hour.

That's my UO, YMMV

[Mulva]

54 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

It's a moot point to me since like I said earlier, I suspend reality when watching TV. I'm not hyper focused on time stamps or how long the case and trial would really take since it's all wrapped up in an hour.

That's my UO, YMMV

I felt the same way about CSI.  Yeah, yeah, in real life it takes weeks to get lab results.  So what?  It's a TV show, not a documentary.

[Raja]

8 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

That's because each case takes place over a period of days or weeks. The Law & Orders don't take place in real time. 

The worst offender would be Lenny Brisco's final case. He is putting in his retirement paperwork as the case begins but is said to have held on with the NYPD through a murder trial, and then a pleasure bargai after a not guilty verdict when he went out with a win.

It suggested that he only worked that one case and stayed with it for the months, or years in my county, before he finally retired to go to the DA's office 

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

It's a moot point to me since like I said earlier, I suspend reality when watching TV. I'm not hyper focused on time stamps or how long the case and trial would really take since it's all wrapped up in an hour.

That's my UO, YMMV

But that's just it--the case isn't wrapped up in an hour. The show is roughly an hour, but every time you hear the "cha-ching!" sound, You saw the time, date and place of what was about to be shown. While the law part of it--the cops investigating/questioning was around a week or so (in most cases; one episode on the Mothership showed the crazy events and cases of ONE day in Season Four's "Mayem"), the order portion's cards showed months had passed before the end of the show. And some episodes had no clean wrap up. Whereas CSI did get a case wrapped up apparently within a few days.

2 hours ago, Raja said:

The worst offender would be Lenny Brisco's final case. He is putting in his retirement paperwork as the case begins but is said to have held on with the NYPD through a murder trial, and then a pleasure bargai after a not guilty verdict when he went out with a win.

It suggested that he only worked that one case and stayed with it for the months, or years in my county, before he finally retired to go to the DA's office 

"We" the audience may have been shown he was just working on one case, as with all other episodes, except for Season Four's "Mayem," where they dealt with three different homicides and we saw them dealing with them. Who's to say that they weren't working on other cases.

That said, this is a television show, not a documentary.

[HunterHunted]

10 hours ago, Mulva said:

I felt the same way about CSI.  Yeah, yeah, in real life it takes weeks to get lab results.  So what?  It's a TV show, not a documentary.

My issue has always been about the internal consistency of the rules the show operates under. CSI is fairly consistent--they've created a weird universe where lab techs carry guns, interview suspects, have technology that can do impossible things, and get lab results back in impossible times. That has remained consistent in the show and across the franchise. However, L&O: SVU is maddening because they've previously established rules in earlier seasons that they break routinely now. The show no longer involves child protective services or family court when there are child victims even though this is something the show used to routinely in earlier seasons. The show now has the police telling the district attorney when and how to prosecute cases. It did not used to be this way. The problem is that all of this has been done in service of Mariska Hargitay's ego and salary. She's a producer and the highest paid so they try to get their money's worth. So I don't care about ridiculous rules as long as the show remembers to follow them.

[Kel Varnsen]

17 hours ago, biakbiak said:

There are several on every episode of the original Law and Order that list the location and date of the scene.

I always thought it would be cool if someone took a season of original Law and Order and recut the whole thing in chronological order  just to see how many cases the cops and DAs are working at the exact same time.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Kel Varnsen

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’m going to step in and defend myself for my full on hate for Ziva. Which had nothing to do with her being competent at her job, but that skills that other agents had before she came on the show, suddenly didn’t have them because Ziva had them all; that she got Gibbs’s trust from day one without earning it; that Tony, who was a good and competent agent, was made to look like a buffoon; both were good agents and there was no need to make him look like an idiot in comparison to her. And when she fucked up (and she did), she never had to pay for it; on the contrary, the ones she betrayed and lied to had to get over it already as if they were the ones who were in the wrong. I’m an equal opportunity hater-both genders get my hate if in my opinion, they deserve it.

My Ziva hate sprang from the way her Mossad/Daddy angst consumed all other storylines.

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

My Ziva hate sprang from the way her Mossad/Daddy angst consumed all other storylines.

This as well.

[Katy M]

I more or less liked Ziva, but I didn't care for Ziva-centric episodes.  If that makes any sense.  And, my big UO is that I like Ellie.

[Minneapple]

On 3/25/2018 at 2:04 AM, kathyk24 said:

I think Mary Sue is code for any female character I don't like. I've never understood the hatred JJ gets.

If you want to go the NCIS route, since there's some discussion of it in this thread right now, Gibbs is MUCH MUCH CLOSER to a male Mary Sue than Ziva was ever a true Mary Sue. 

I never understood the Ziva hate either. I wasn't crazy about her but the sheer hate for her was over the top. Not as bad as the hatred for certain female characters on, say, Supernatural or Arrow, but still pretty bad

[proserpina65]

55 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I more or less liked Ziva, but I didn't care for Ziva-centric episodes.  If that makes any sense.  And, my big UO is that I like Ellie.

I adored Kate and no one can really replace her, but I'm fine with Ellie.  I do like that there was no sexual tension between her and Tony.  I might've liked Ziva if there had been fewer Ziva-centric episodes.  I like the occasional episodes with Tony's father and McGee's Great Santini situation with his father, so I'm not adverse to some family-related drama.  With Ziva, it seemed like every third episode was like that.

[Ceindreadh]

40 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

If you want to go the NCIS route, since there's some discussion of it in this thread right now, Gibbs is MUCH MUCH CLOSER to a male Mary Sue than Ziva was ever a true Mary Sue. 

I never understood the Ziva hate either. I wasn't crazy about her but the sheer hate for her was over the top. Not as bad as the hatred for certain female characters on, say, Supernatural or Arrow, but still pretty bad

I originally preferred Ziva to Kate, because Kate was a bit of a jerk to Tony. 

Then we had the “Ziva punches a restrained prisoner in the throat because he was annoying her and takes no responsibility for possibly causing his death” followed by the “Ziva physically assaults her injured partner and pulls a loaded gun on him”.  Then of course there were the TIVA fans who were convinced that they were a perfect couple in spite of the physical abuse. 

Dint even get me started on Tony’s exit plot which was just so much badly written fan fiction. Tony and MW deserved so much better. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I originally preferred Ziva to Kate, because Kate was a bit of a jerk to Tony. 

And Ziva was a bigger jerk toward Tony, as the examples you listed convey.

[GaT]

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Gibbs is MUCH MUCH CLOSER to a male Mary Sue 

 

That is known as a Marty Stu :-) 

[bijoux]

Not Gary Stu?

[GaT]

24 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Not Gary Stu?

According to Wikipedia:

Quote

A male can also be referred to as a Marty Stu or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly.

So I guess there's only one female version, but multiple male versions. Of course.

[biakbiak]

14 minutes ago, GaT said:

So I guess there's only one female version, but multiple male versions. Of course.

There is also Larry Stu. It started with a character name Mary Sue so the reason for multiple male versions is different people riffing on the original and taking hold in different fandoms. 

[Raja]

15 minutes ago, GaT said:

According to Wikipedia:

So I guess there's only one female version, but multiple male versions. Of course.

That's because it hasn't been used enough for one to stick.

[andromeda331]

By season seven or eight I hated all of the characters but I absolutely hate Gibbs and Abby the most. Abby was really cool in the first season then they turned her into this annoying spoiled two year old. I really hate her trying to convince Ziva to talk to her father, you know the one who left her to die or Tony to reconnect with his father. Gibbs is an asshole. He treats everyone like crap and no one ever calls him.  Because apparently he's the best person in the world. In case you didn't know by all of the cheerleading the rest of the teams does. He's the best boss, best marine, best investigator, interrogator the world has ever seen. He gives advice on parenting and childcare. He's got a tragic backstory which makes it completely okay to be asshole to everyone.  But everyone wants to be just like him. They want his approval. I hate the whitewashing of Ari.  

[ABay]

I thought they were all jerks, Tony & Gibbs especially. That's why I stopped watching after a few episodes.

[callie lee 29]

I'll admit,  I am a user of "Mary Sue", however the very best example of what exemplifies  "Mary Sue" is the "Gary Stu" ... Leroy Jethro Gibbs.  As much as i love  Mark Harmon,  the fawning over  Gibbs has made NCIS unwatchable. In the same vein the most awesome in every way of Hetty (Mary Sue) and Callan (Gary Stu) on NCIS:LA is getting to my tv threshold .

[kathyk24]

My vote for Marty Stu is Reid from Criminal Minds. He's a genius who everybody loves and everybody wants to protect.

[Minneapple]

4 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

My vote for Marty Stu is Reid from Criminal Minds. He's a genius who everybody loves and everybody wants to protect.

Oh yeah. Remember the time Emily Prentiss got her ass kicked protecting Reid, then had to make sure he didn't feel bad? Yes, because in that instance I'm really really worried about HOW REID FEELS. 

ETA: Finally watched the latest SHIELD episode and I'm reminded how people used to call Mary Sue on Skye/Daisy, especially after her powers came about. Well, seasons later Daisy is anything but a Mary Sue. Her powers are never used as some kind of deux ex machina. She doesn't always save everyone. And this season she lost her powers for several episodes and was still just as useful and awesome. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Minneapple

[Neurochick]

Another thing used to describe mostly women is, "she's so smug."  WTF?  So a woman can't be happy with herself?  If she is she's smug?  Oh please.  Terms like "Mary Sue" or "Smug Mary Sue" is used to beat female characters over the head.  

[Lugal]

On the subject of Mary Sues:

So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly.  They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

 God, what a Mary Sue.

Spoiler

I just described Batman.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Lugal said:

On the subject of Mary Sues:

So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly.  They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

 God, what a Mary Sue.

  Reveal hidden contents

I just described Batman.

I knew it! I knew it! I knew he was a Mary Sue. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 hours ago, Lugal said:

On the subject of Mary Sues:

So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly.  They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

 God, what a Mary Sue.

  Reveal hidden contents

I just described Batman.

 

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I knew it! I knew it! I knew he was a Mary Sue. 

HEY! LEAVE MY

BATS

ALONE!!! No need to drag him into this!!!

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I knew it! I knew it! I knew he was a Mary Sue. 

His superpower is money. ;-)

[ByTor]

19 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Another thing used to describe mostly women is, "she's so smug."

I've never known this term to describe mostly women, I've heard (and used) it toward men just as much.

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:19 AM, HunterHunted said:

CSI is fairly consistent--they've created a weird universe where lab techs carry guns, interview suspects, have technology that can do impossible things, and get lab results back in impossible times.

Ugh, this drives me nuts! I'm like @GHScorpiosRule in that I don't expect a documentary, but people who process evidence also interrogate and make arrests??? NOPE!

Edited March 28, 2018 by ByTor

[partofme]

Ziva from NCIS is my all-time favorite female character.  She's fierce and kick-ass and I quit watching what had been my favorite show when she left.  

[ratgirlagogo]

On 3/26/2018 at 6:31 PM, GaT said:

Quote

A male can also be referred to as a Marty Stu or Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly.

So I guess there's only one female version, but multiple male versions. Of course.

I thought the male version was always called a Wesley Crusher.:)

[xaxat]

Let's move on from the discussion of the phrase Mary Sue, Larry Sue and variants.