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S02.E09: Rise Of The Villains: A Bitter Pill To Swallow

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Gordon and Barnes continue cleaning up Gotham, and Gordon comes face-to-face with one of the city's most dangerous hitmen, Eduardo Flamingo. Meanwhile, Nygma and Penguin cross paths again, and Bruce pressures Galavan into handing over the name of his parents' murderer.

 

 

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Bruce just keeps getting dumber. At this point the writers have decided to force Jim to be more evil, to the point it is getting silly even for a comic book. Eating people who are alive? Really?

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Rookie cops on Gotham are like cute animals on The Walking Dead: their only purpose is to die.

The fact that Tabitha got the army of hitmen on Jim all because of Barbara makes her pathetic. Even comatose Barbara sucks.

The Penguin/Nygma scenes were the best part of the show. They reminded me so much of Misery I kept expecting Nygma to say "I'm your number one fan!"

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It was a so-so episode. I liked Barnes better this episode (I like him more when he takes the wisdom/sage/mentor route rather than the intense guy we were introduced to. He's mellowed out a bit.

Poor Officer Parks :(. I almost thought she was going to live to see another day (episode?) until that end scene with Flamingo started.

I was disappointed in Flamingo. He was underwhelming. I didn't think the fight was well choreographed. Flamingo's supposed to be some amazing assassin? yeah, don't believe it based on that fight. Those chains made him sluggish. The elevator fight scene was better. Had more action and was quirky.

I didn't care about the Bruce/Alfred plot, and even Oswald/Nygma didn't draw me in very much. I liked Ed's speech though; that was about it.

Lastly,

Where the HECK was Harvey???? Did he take some days off to recover from his previous injuries??

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How stupid is Bruce? (Don't answer that; it's rhetorical.) I can't believe he's going to be Batman. He's so easily manipulated, while other youngsters his age are much more aware.

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Man, another woman bites the dust? Not good, Gotham. Not good. 

 

How old is Bruce? I'm okay with his easily-thwarted plans because he's young. He's just a kid . . . a kid seeking vengeance for his parents. Of course he's going to be led around. That's what Alfred is for . . . tough love.

 

I thought the lady at the underground club (speakeasy?) looked familiar before the credits popped up. It's Michelle Gomez! Sorry . . . I went to a Doctor Who convention this past weekend, and I saw a few Missys in attendance. I wonder if she got along with Sean Pertwee. Yes, I am a geek . . . why do you ask?

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Man, another woman bites the dust? Not good, Gotham. Not good.

 

 

Umm, as opposed to how many dead male cops? And what, at least four male assassins? And the guy that Penguin and Riddler were playing with? I'm sorry, I don't see the point here.

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Umm, as opposed to how many dead male cops? And what, at least four male assassins? And the guy that Penguin and Riddler were playing with? I'm sorry, I don't see the point here.

Don't you know? In TV land 1 dead woman is a greater loss than 100 dead men. Unless they are a main character men have always been the expendable one of the two genders in all of fiction, nobody cares if a man bites the dust but if writers want to make us give a damn they'll kill one woman and suddenly everybody cares.

 

I honestly wish I was joking about this.

 

Now Bruce is steering straight into dumbass territory, there's no "he's a screwed up hormonal kid, therefore it's okay" at this point. After the end of the last episode it should have become abundantly clear to him that Galivan is more dirty than the entire board of Wayne Enterprises and thus what Selina has been saying about Silver is probably right, but he doesn't even show any signs of suspicion towards either of them. Good thing Alfred had a good enough head of his shoulders to realize that it's very likely it is that everything Galivan and Silver have been saying is a complete load and takes measures to ensure to rein Bruce in at least.

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I was chortling more at offing a black female cop and three minutes later a black male cop. Bad form Gotham PTB! Mix up the minorities that get taken out a bit more.

Seriously though I was hard core rooting for Officer Parks to become a regular background cop but once Jim singled her out with her good work for surviving and The Flamingo saw it, she was a goner. Jim should've busted up his teeth!

Speaking of those flying fists of fury, loved Jim just whaling. Hope BenMc doesn't end up with back problems from it.

Tabitha, Babs wasn't worth all that crap. Montoya figured it out. You should too.

Bruce is tired and desperate and a teen. Which makes him stupid. Alfred will remember these times fondly when Bruce gets older and becomes an emotionally walked off ninja that he will never be able to lock town ever again.

Nygma birthed Penguin 2.0. Loved them all smiles and partying at the end. Gotham is so doomed.

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Don't you know? In TV land 1 dead woman is a greater loss than 100 dead men. Unless they are a main character men have always been the expendable one of the two genders in all of fiction, nobody cares if a man bites the dust but if writers want to make us give a damn they'll kill one woman and suddenly everybody cares.

 

I do seem to remember some people griping about the ending of S2 of True Detective where the three male leads all died and the female lead went into exile carrying one of their unborn babies. I can think of 4 female deaths this season-Sarah Essen, Kristen Kringle, Gertrude Cobblepot and Officer what's her name, Parks? It's interesting to note that two were women of color and they both died horribly and extremely messy. Not sure if that was intended to mean anything or not but I certainly noticed it.

Edited by Philbert

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Loved the Musak in the background during the elevator rumble.

Maybe there is a little bromance chemistry in Ed's and Penguin's future?

Am I a little warped to be sympathetic towards Oswald, or is it just that RLT does such an amazing job portraying him? :)

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Yes, killing off female characters is a "bigger" deal, because there are less female characters to begin with.

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I'm sorry, I don't count "no name man hunter" and "unnamed street thug" in the same category as semi developed characters like Essen, Kringle or Gertrude. That's not how I roll. And as was mentioned in last week's thread. These women's death only serve to further the men's storyline. That's what's sick about it.

On topic. Hey Selina, glad you're back. Too bad you haven't beat up Silver yet. Because ugh.

I'm betting that Tabitha ends up betraying Theo. But I'm not sure how yet.

I miss Harvey. Whenever he's gone.

I love Alfred whenever he's on screen. Keep on being clever Alf, please teach Bruce to be the same.

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Why, why do I watch this show? Cutting off ears and throwing them into fires, with torso's already burning away? Crazy people revelling in the torturing and killing of others. Why?

 

Why? Because then I get hooked into Nygma taking care of Penguin, while embracing his sadistic murderous side, while rooting for Jim to beat the crap out of anyone coming for him.

 

But I still get royally disturbed every episode. Completely disturbed.

 

And Bruce needs to grow up. At least this episode, Alfred (and Cat) stood up to Littte!Naive to teach him a clue.

 

But this show really can be, a bitter pill to swallow....

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It continues to amaze me how people can complain this much about such a good episode of such a great show.

 

As for Bruce, you really don't understand his portrayal at all. He knows Silver is bad news at this point. He's not being an idiot, he's simply being overconfident and his little head is telling him he can handle it, because the little head wants action.

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Seriously, is Donal Logue pulling double duty on another show, and I'm not aware of it?  The lack of Bullock really makes no sense to me.  Why would he be looking for evidence too, and be part of the big showdown with Jim and Barnes?  I just don't get it and the lack of Bullock this season has been really getting on my nerves.

 

A gang of assassins head by Missy from Doctor Who is pretty awesome, although Flamingo was lame as hell.  And, of course, the rookie cop dies because apparently the GCPD are just wimps, that it apparently took them forever to finally knock him off of her.  Ever heard of a taser, GCPD?  Whatever: it was all just to show that Gordon refusing to embrace the darkness has consequences or something.  Not sure what to think, really.  Is the show saying he should have killed him?

 

Theo is still pretty smug in prison and clearly is in the driver's seat still.

 

I've give up on Bruce.  Kid's a dummy.

 

Oswald and Ed were the best.  They need their own sitcom spin-off.  Tune in to The Penguin & The Riddler, and watch the hijinks of them bonding over the people they killed! 

 

Arvin Sloane and his hooded assassins have now entered Gotham.  The Assassin's Creed franchise sure has taken a strange turn...

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Seriously, is Donal Logue pulling double duty on another show, and I'm not aware of it?

Yes!  He's about to become a dad (with Amanda Rollins played by Kelli Giddish as the mom) on Law & Order SVU.

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I thought for a moment that Bruce was still hung up on Silver but after his scenes with Alfred, it seemed as if he knows she's bad but he doesn't care - he just wants any scrap of info about who killed his parents and he thinks Theo might've given those scraps to Silver. Thus, he wants to see if he can wheedle anything out of her. Of course, when she looks at him with her puppy dog, pouty face, sure, he weakens a bit. And I'm not quite sure he truly believes Theo is bad to the bone. Same sort of thing...Bruce is willing to overlook both Theo's and Silver's "badness" in order to get even a hint of a clue as to who might've killed his parents. We'll see if both Alfred and Selena can convince him completely and get him back on track.

 

So Barbara's off to be warehoused at Arkham. Gee, that oughta work out well - that place is about as secure as CTU was on '24.'

 

Loved seeing Arvin Sloane again!!

 

Nygma and Penguin together - oh boy oh boy! That's just gonna be all kinds of wrong - count me in!

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I didn't know we were gonna see The Master, er Missy. Can we keep her? 

 

For a promised gory episode, I sure laughed a lot. "It's not work if you love what you do" had me rolling. I want to keep Eduardo too. 

 

That nameless cop at the end was asking to be killed. Should be common knowledge in Gotham that conspicuous getups are good indicators of murderous baddies as are quirky names. 

 

Feels like the real romance of the show has just begun. Nygma/Penguin were every bit as disturbingly adorable as I'd hoped. 

 

I'm fine with Bruce being reckless to the point of stupidity. His single-mindedness over solving his parents' murder ending in disaster is one way to get him some character growth.

In CoO it led him to a trap where he nearly died of starvation. But it served as a character defining moment for Batman.

Edited by driedfruit

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This was an okay episode. Fun in some parts but mainly for the Oswald and Nygma scenes. Those two really do work so well together, don't they?

 

Nice to see Missy on here or should I call her the Lady and as she survived the episode, we might see her again if we're lucky.

 

Tabitha sending out assassins to kill Gordon because of Barbara is vomit inducing and inplausible as well for me. Theo was right to call her out on it.

 

Flamingo had his moments but he needed more airtime to make an impression though.

 

Barnes got some development but Leslie needs more this season. Gordon's dark side, blah, blah, whatever at this rate.

 

No Bullock this week, shame that.

 

Selina and Alfred might be right about Silver but it seemed like Bruce was already aware that she's playing him though, 7/10

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How stupid is Bruce? (Don't answer that; it's rhetorical.) I can't believe he's going to be Batman. He's so easily manipulated, while other youngsters his age are much more aware.

 

He's stupid enough to think that a guy who didn't know that minors can't legally enter into contracts is smart.  Teen Bruce is the stupid kid who opens the door in 80s slasher movies.

 

 

 

Tabitha sending out assassins to kill Gordon because of Barbara is vomit inducing and inplausible as well for me. Theo was right to call her out on it.

 

 

That's because Jim was mean to Barbara *roll eyes*  Not because Jim arrested her brother, but because he was mean to Barbara......

 

Well, at least we know Tabitha is as brainless as Babs.

Edited by Milz
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My favorite moment:  When Penguin asks Ed how many people he's killed:  Ed proudly answers, "3," and Penguin tsks a bit, rolls his eyes and loses interest.

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Why, why do I watch this show? Cutting off ears and throwing them into fires, with torso's already burning away? Crazy people revelling in the torturing and killing of others. Why?

 

Well, now. You just answered your own question there didn't you? :)

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Well, now. You just answered your own question there didn't you? :)

 

Heh. But those scenes disturb the hell out of me, to be truthful. They really do. The Penguin/Nygma and Jim Gordon basically mowing down anyone who dares come for him were the best parts (for me). Note I'm still watching. Still disturbed, but still watching.

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Heh. But those scenes disturb the hell out of me, to be truthful. They really do. The Penguin/Nygma and Jim Gordon basically mowing down anyone who dares come for him were the best parts (for me). Note I'm still watching. Still disturbed, but still watching.

 

I'm fairly used to gross and disturbing images on television and in films. Generally, anything on HBO/Cinemax is far more graphic than anything you're going to see on "Gotham." On the other hand, there is an underlying sense of creepiness that lurks throughout this show-and it makes things seem far worse than they really are. I admit, the attack on the cop at the end was extremely disturbing-and it was not particularly graphic. It was just creepy, and well..disturbing. This is one thing I think the show really does well and doesn't get enough credit for. The Creepiness and sense of a city in the process of decay is a major selling point for me.

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When did John Oates start acting? Sorry, that was all I could think when The Flamingo came on the screen...

I was thinking Freddie Mercury, but yes.  

 

I was so excited to see Missy, but this "kill Gordon today" was the most boring part of the episode.  We all know the show ISN'T going to kill Gordon and I wish they'd spent less time on it.  Missy just looked kind of lame, which is too bad since I love the actress and I'd love it if she became a regular villain.  I liked the stuff between Gordon and Barnes, and Bruce/Silver/Alfred/Selina, and especially Nygma/Penguin.  

 

 

 

Seriously, is Donal Logue pulling double duty on another show, and I'm not aware of it?  The lack of Bullock really makes no sense to me.  Why would he be looking for evidence too, and be part of the big showdown with Jim and Barnes?  I just don't get it and the lack of Bullock this season has been really getting on my nerves.
Yes!  He's about to become a dad (with Amanda Rollins played by Kelli Giddish as the mom) on Law & Order SVU.

Glad to know his talents are appreciated ELSEWHERE, harrumph - and I'll watch him in anything.  But I miss him here - he and his character greatly improve this show.

 

So Arvin Sloane and his evil monks are agents of Ra's Al-Ghul?

Edited by ratgirlagogo
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One of the users on the Criminal Minds forum has a "Reid meter" that is used to determine if the episode in question uses Dr. Spencer Reid enough, mostly because that show has pretty much kicked him to the curb since the end of Season 6.

 

So perhaps here we need to have a "Bullock meter", where we can determine if the episode in question has used Harvey Bullock in a satisfactory amount. I say it goes from "0" or "no Bullock" or "10" or "best amount of Bullock there is" (because there can never be "too much" of Bullock. Science proves this).

 

Obviously, this one gets a big fat 0. I tell you, I hope he's still long for the show because no Bullock is a deal breaker for me.

 

As for this episode...I couldn't get too invested in it. I would think Bruno Heller and Co. would know right off the bat that threatening Jim or Bruce is false drama and would do everything they can to make the "journey" as compelling as it can be, because we know what the end result will be. For Bruce, I can at least point to some character development that seemed present in this episode, with Alfred and Selina on to him like the guardians he needs.

 

For Jim...I know the show is trying to paint him as coming across a moral dilemma in his growth to commissioner, and while it was nice to see his recklessness have consequences in the last episode (unlike S1), this "morally compromised" Jim rings hollow for me. Yeah, he killed one of the Penguin's debtors in cold blood, but that was ages ago...for this storyline to have any real meaning, Jim needs to be beating up and killing perps every day while gaining evidence through unscrupulous means all the time. If all this stress makes Jim ditch his morals and compromise his integrity, then the show should actually show it...not just pay it lip service. Otherwise all this talk about a compromised Jim is just going to fall flat, if it hasn't already.

 

That said, I did enjoy Barnes' story about the kid (which raises a secondary question about how Barnes wouldn't know standing on a severed artery is a bad idea, but I digress). For someone who is not (likely) long for the show, it was a nice human element that informs how Barnes came to be how he is, and that the law gives him a sense of purpose. It's likely those words that will eventually dawn on Jim one day, because once Gotham becomes the dystopia that Batman knows it to be, only the law will separate Jim and Batman from the insane masses they're tasked to control.

 

What did make the episode enjoyable was Nygma and Oswald. It was a neat twist to see Nygma go for Oswald for help and asking Oswald to teach him, only for Nygma to instead become Oswald's teacher. There was a lot of great character moments in that entire storyline- in fact, I think I might have preferred that plot to have been the "A" one this week- because Nygma made the one realisation that the Penguin has so desperately needed to learn- that only once you are free of what you are beholden to can you be free of your chains.

 

Or, "there's nothing scarier than someone who has nothing to lose".

 

It's a nice counterweight to Oswald's own admission back in S1, where he told Frankie that "when you know what a man loves, you know what can kill him", a saying that came back to haunt him in a big way this season. So it only seems natural that Oswald needed to learn how to excise that from him, and Nygma told him how, which he'll be better for. Unfortunately for Leonard, though.

 

So it was good, not great, but mostly because of the Nygma/Oswald stuff. That's the kind of thing the show should be focusing on, not crazy, moronic villains and obvious red shirt police officers that wind up doing little more than "pad" the episode. Sure, I came for the crazy too...but I mostly came for the characters and their development. Give me that, show.

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I say it goes from "0" or "no Bullock" or "10" or "best amount of Bullock there is" (because there can never be "too much" of Bullock. Science proves this).

 

I co-sign this 1000%

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When did John Oates start acting? Sorry, that was all I could think when The Flamingo came on the screen...

"Watch out boy she'll chew you up....She's a Man-Eater"  

Edited by paigow
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That said, I did enjoy Barnes' story about the kid (which raises a secondary question about how Barnes wouldn't know standing on a severed artery is a bad idea, but I digress). For someone who is not (likely) long for the show, it was a nice human element that informs how Barnes came to be how he is, and that the law gives him a sense of purpose. It's likely those words that will eventually dawn on Jim one day, because once Gotham becomes the dystopia that Batman knows it to be, only the law will separate Jim and Batman from the insane masses they're tasked to control.

 

Batman doesn't operate within the law though, everything he does is illegal, everything Gordon does to work with and help him is also illegal. Batman is the antithesis of Barnes' speech. The law doesn't work, the system is broken, if you want to make Gotham a better place you have to be willing to go outside of the law and the system, maybe dress up as a bat while you're at it. Just don't cross the line and start killing in pursuit of a better Gotham.

 

Gordon is the guy who started the series believing in the law like Barnes, but has now become the sort of person who will one day think that the guy who dresses up like a bat to beat up criminals is someone that he can work with rather than arrest on sight.

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When did John Oates start acting? Sorry, that was all I could think when The Flamingo came on the screen...

That's Raúl Castillo as Eduardo Flamingo. Quite a change of pace from his last role as Richie, mild-mannered barber and one of the love interests for Jonathan Groff's Patrick on Looking.

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the guy who dresses up like a bat to beat up criminals is someone that he can work with rather than arrest on sight.

 

Someone (I don't know who) described Batman as a 1%er who beats up mentally ill people. Of course, Batman is mentally ill as well.

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and three minutes later a black male cop.

 

 

Who was also charged with playing one of the stupidest fucking people on the planet. Seriously, a group of shady, berobed people show up on the foggy docks at midnight and you walk right up to them saying the place is closed and demanding ID??? Dude, do you even go here? This is GOTHAM. Run as far as your legs can carry you! It's not like the GCPD has so many cops left they can afford to throw one away--I think they're down to Jim, his boss, Harvey, the property desk clerk, and like seven rookies. And the guy who wheels the doughnut cart around.

 

Nice to see Lee has such a substantial role this week! Hah, no, her job is apparently to walk around looking wistful and obsess about her and Jim's relationship, but always in the middle of a workday in the middle of their workspace so she looks silly and irrational and Jim looks all stoic and noble. Even though she's completely right about everything and by the way, was held hostage/nearly had her face peeled off by a crazy woman, whom she warned Jim against, but nobody's managed to even ask how she's doing, let alone suggest she might want to take a personal day or anything. Women! They're so silly!

 

Michael Chiklis really knocked it out of the park with his monologue. Excellent work. Even though between the blood loss and Scotch he should have been passed out. Oh! And if nothing else that firefight shot a hole into one of those hideous murals so, it's an ill wind that blows no good! And they remembered to put Tabitha's arm in a sling, too. It's the little things.

 

Missy was wasted and I've seen enough Hannibal to know the discerning cannibal doesn't bother with ears. They're all cartilage, like chewing gas station jerky! Eduardo, you and your hair are official try-hards.

 

Bruce, you are a moron. I must respectfully demand you wake the hell up and also spend time in some other room in this supposedly giant mansion. Alfred shutting down his transparent little scheme was hilarious. Go Alfred. 

 

 

GOAL: To kill and eat people, just like the savage flamingos do.

 

 

 

This made me squeal aloud with delight and start a band called The Savage Flamingos.

Edited by Snookums
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For Jim...I know the show is trying to paint him as coming across a moral dilemma in his growth to commissioner, and while it was nice to see his recklessness have consequences in the last episode (unlike S1), this "morally compromised" Jim rings hollow for me. Yeah, he killed one of the Penguin's debtors in cold blood, but that was ages ago...

By the conventional meaning of "in cold blood," i.e. in a premeditated manner with no legal justification or emotion, I would not say Jim killed the debtor in cold blood.

 

He only did so while under attack by the debtor and clearly has some level of remorse about it even now.

 

So Arvin Sloane and his evil monks are agents of Ra's Al-Ghul?

 

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By the conventional meaning of "in cold blood," i.e. in a premeditated manner with no legal justification or emotion, I would not say Jim killed the debtor in cold blood.

He only did so while under attack by the debtor and clearly has some level of remorse about it even now.

Either Bullock or Penguin characterised it that way, which is why I misremembered.

Does seem to further my point- for all this supposed “darkness” that Jim has embraced, we sure haven't seen much of it.

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Even though I am not convinced that she'll exist in this series' continuity, my ears did perk up at Galavan suggesting that Tabitha likes to torture librarians, thinking that Jim's daughter might be the best-known Gotham librarian! Liked the Jim/Leslie, Riddler/Penguin scenes! Could have done without BabyBat and his "subterfuge". I wonder if there's another Wayne kid traveling the world, learning all there is to know about detective work and fighting who will replace this guy and become THE Batman?

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Either Bullock or Penguin characterised it that way, which is why I misremembered.

Does seem to further my point- for all this supposed “darkness” that Jim has embraced, we sure haven't seen much of it.

 

I think the point is, that Jim's got a skeleton in his closet.

 

Maybe this is partly false construct as I can't remember quite all who knows now that Jim killed someone for Penguin, but Jim quite clearly cares about it, and I can surely see it theoretically as a bete noir that some day pops up to keep him from becoming commissioner.  He hasn't exactly been running to confess to Barnes, for ex.

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Forget the part where another woman was killed off, why in the world were the police officers not hitting him on the head to knock him out instead of just his back?  Then again the death count on this show is NUTS.

 

Penguin+Riddler = a dynamic duo this show needs and deserves.  I really enjoyed their scenes together. 

 

Oh Bruce.  Either you are really this stupid or you're already playing up the wastrel playboy you were meant to be before you can drive.  

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I love that Ngyma decided to make Penguin his murder mentor. Now that Penguin is on board, Gotham is in big trouble.

 

So Barbara's off to be warehoused at Arkham. Gee, that oughta work out well - that place is about as secure as CTU was on '24.'

See also: Star Labs on The Flash and the not so secret Arrow lair on The Arrow.

 

I'm so used to seeing Richie be serious on Looking that I got a kick out of him gleefully saying, "It's not work if you love what you do!"

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Idk about the rest of you. I like the Baby Batman scenes because there aren't usually crazy, demented, or grotesque. I feel bad for Jim b/c he'd wanted to be a good cop from Tues beginning, and he still tries not to give into his temptations.

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I couldn't tell that Bruce wasn't still hung up on Silver.  He was still defending her to Selena.  I would like to see him try to play Silver, hopefully once he believes Selena's evidence.  But somehow I doubt it.

 

Killing a psycho murderer is not "crossing the line", especially when you know half of the insane criminals escape anyway.  Gotham is practically a war zone.

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I was LIVING for the Nygma & penguin scenes. It was like a big,warped, sadistic slumber party.

 

Those scenes were easily the best part of the episode. Nygma looking after Penguin was both adorably sweet and super creepy all at the same time. Nygma got him a present of a Galivan lackey to murder. New BFF's or villains who are at least cordial to each other in passing? That is my question.

 

I was so excited to see Missy, but this "kill Gordon today" was the most boring part of the episode.  We all know the show ISN'T going to kill Gordon and I wish they'd spent less time on it.  Missy just looked kind of lame, which is too bad since I love the actress and I'd love it if she became a regular villain.  I liked the stuff between Gordon and Barnes, and Bruce/Silver/Alfred/Selina, and especially Nygma/Penguin.  

 

Honestly when Missy/Mother said that Jim Gordon would die I was like, no all of Gotham's assassins will die and several random cops will die. Honestly How are there any cops left on the precinct what with cops dying basically every episode. 

 

Someone (I don't know who) described Batman as a 1%er who beats up mentally ill people. Of course, Batman is mentally ill as well.

 

I think that was the basis of a Cracked After Hours episode as well. That Bruce Wayne embezzles from his company so that he can spend his free time beating up the mentally ill and the poor. 

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