S09.E01: The Magician's Apprentice

[MeloraH]

I liked it better than most of the recent episodes but it still seems so annoyingly devoid of stakes. Weirdly, a book I'm currently reading also has a desert of hands/arms. Is that a trope or just a weird coincidence?

[goodbyeglittergirl]

Apparently viewing figures were down quite a bit - backlash from last season?

Oof, that worries me. I've been concerned about the future of DW over the past season or so. I love Capaldi, but I don't think last season was very strong and I really dislike Clara - I do worry that it's going to run itself into the ground and we'll lose new DW adventures b/c it will get cancelled!

[ketose]

I liked it better than most of the recent episodes but it still seems so annoyingly devoid of stakes. Weirdly, a book I'm currently reading also has a desert of hands/arms. Is that a trope or just a weird coincidence?

But it's not devoid of snakes.

[Autumn]

The Daleks have felt played out for a while but I do like the idea of The Doctor deciding if he should kill Davros as a child so none of it would ever happen.  I don't mind Missy but i would have liked to see her and the Doctor together solving a problem instead of her and Clara.  I liked the guitar playing because it is seems like something this Doctor would know how to do.  The tank and the "dude" bit of it was overkill.  I think that Capaldi is finally relaxing into the role and hopefully The Doctor will have some fun this season.

 

Of course Clara and Missy aren't dead.  I think anytine the show "kills" a companion or puts them in mortal danger it is almost always a cheat.  I think asking if The Doctor would kill to save a random person would be much more of a question.

 

I imagine the ratings being down is somewhat related to how long it has been since the last series.  People get out of the habit of watching.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Autumn

[elle]

What I have never understood is why the Doctor wants to save Davros?  The Master, yes, I can see him trying to save his old friend and fellow Time Lord. But, Davros?

[Mabinogia]

Of course Clara and Missy aren't dead.  I think anytine the show "kills" a companion or puts them in mortal danger it is almost always a cheat.  I think asking if The Doctor would kill to save a random person would be much more of a question.

 

 

Yeah, it sadly has no impact at all. Is there anyone out there who is devastated and thinks that Clara is dead? Seriously? If so, I've got a nice bridge I'd love to sell. Honestly, it takes me completely out of the story because now I'm like "well, the whole thing is probably some elaborate set up and therefore just pointless". There is no urgency and no real drama there. It wasn't even a spectacular death, just a yawning "whatever" death.

 

I like the ethical debate on whether one should kill a child knowing they will grow up to destroy worlds but it's kind of obvious that the Doctor will not. He still is the "hero" of the piece, and will more likely try to rehabilitate Davos by showing him compassion despite who he will become, then Davos will get all mushy and repentant and then die. Hope this is the last we hear/see of Davos and the Daleks for at least a season. They are boring.

 

I did like Missy a lot better this ep and I like how annoyed Clara is that Missy is the Doctors BFF. Suck it you not even remotely special little twit. (I don't hate Clara per say, I just hate how hard the show tries to push how awesome and special and cool she is. I would have liked her, since I like the actress well enough, had she just been this ordinary human who found herself in this crazy situation and didn't become so utterly full of herself that she acts like hot shit as she takes a personal day to go play Doctor).

 

I am loving Capaldi as the Doctor and Missy, though a bit much at times, is at least fun. But they really need to send their little puppy back to the pound.

[Cthulhudrew]

Yes, good point about the question of Davros having the screwdriver all those years. And also, frankly, just about him never mentioning the fact that he'd "met" the Doctor, and the Tardis, all those years ago. Presumably, we're to understand that he had forgotten, and only recently remembered. 

 

That was part of Davros' message to the Doctor. That he remembered. 

 

My best guess? The Doctor actually did save Davros all those years ago and only just now realized it in his current incarnation, and that Davros is now remembering and will probably repent or have death bed recriminations about the evil he's caused since forgetting, even if he did believe that it was all for a good cause. Maybe not, though.

[MadMouse]

Ehh it was an ok episode nothing terrible or amazing either. And for me in the era of Moffat that's a win. 

 

I don't feel connected or really care about any characters. Jenna Coleman is a fine actress but Clara still feels like an empty shell of a character. Just add whatever traits that are needed for the episode. I still have no idea who Capaldi's Doctor is. The episodes themselves just feel like some witty dialogue, nonsense plot and some visuals mixed together with zero thought. The show has no heart what so ever. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I feel like this a no-brainer I should instantly know, but.....

 

So, when The Doctor "leaves" kid!Davros in that hand-mine field - he does 'leave', as the TARDIS is heard powering up to go just before the opening credits started - and he appears behind k!Davros at the end of the episode, it was just a very few seconds to k!Davros, but a "real-time 'lifetime'" to The Doctor, right?

 

 

And, like The Doctor questioning where he was and how he got there, how did he get there; will the viewers ever know how/why he ended up there to start the episode?  And how did he not recognize either Skaro or k!Davros (because, 'timey-wimey')??  (or did he recognize Skaro at first, and I am blanking on that fact?)

Edited September 20, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[ottoDbusdriver]

So, when The Doctor "leaves" kid!Davros in that hand-mine field - he does 'leave', as the TARDIS is heard powering up to go just before the opening credits started - and he appears behind k!Davros at the end of the episode, it was just a very few seconds to k!Davros, but a "real-time 'lifetime'" to The Doctor, right?

 

Or has it only been a matter of weeks (they kept mentioning that the Doctor had been missing for three weeks or something similar) between when the Doctor gave kid!Davros his sonic screwdriver at the start of the episode and then returned at the end of the episode behind kid!Davros ?

Edited September 20, 2015 by ottoDbusdriver

[starri]

I've hated just about everything that's happened under Steven Moffat except for the 50th.

 

But he's worn me down, because I really, really liked this episode.  In fact, I would have been a lot more positive on the previous season if they'd hit the idea of who 12 is at some point.  Even Missy, while still hammy, seemed a lot more reigned in.  She was just funny, and not just the Joker.  I wish they'd find a way to give her a TARDIS, because going back to the well of the Vortex Manipulator again.  That worked for Jack, but to keep relying on it is just lazy storytelling.

 

How did the Doctor land on Skaro in its ancient past without realizing it?

 

Kate's new assistant:  I knew Osgood, Osgood was a friend of mine, and you, miss, are no Osgood.

[Galileo908]

When I saw all the aliens like the Ood and the Judoon show up, I came to realize something: Aside from the Ood, River, the Angels and the stuff in the 50th, Moffat has referenced next to nothing from the RTD era. Essentially, anything that Moffat didn't come up with, it's been tossed aside.

 

How did the Doctor land on Skaro in its ancient past without realizing it?

 

Kate's new assistant:  I knew Osgood, Osgood was a friend of mine, and you, miss, are no Osgood.

 

1) the Doctor mentioned he gets planets and wars mixed up a lot and couldn't keep track.

 

2) Same, but isn't

Osgood confirmed to come back later in the season? I hope she replaces Clara.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Galileo908

[benteen]

Oof, that worries me. I've been concerned about the future of DW over the past season or so. I love Capaldi, but I don't think last season was very strong and I really dislike Clara - I do worry that it's going to run itself into the ground and we'll lose new DW adventures b/c it will get cancelled!

 

I heard it ran up against X-Factor, which is really popular in England but I'm not sure.

 

The show needs regime change and Moffat has been running the show for far too long.  I'd also like to see The Twelfth Doctor with a new companion that is better suited to him.

[call me ishmael]

 

How did the Doctor land on Skaro in its ancient past without realizing it?

But i don't think the Doctor had ever been to Skaro that early. By the time he got there the atmosphere was much more polluted, there seemed to be more destruction, etc

[penguinnj]

Did any kind of Doctor Who Extra or Confidential air after this episode?

[Starchild]

Apparently viewing figures were down quite a bit - backlash from last season?

What worries me is that people are dropping out because they can't take Clara anymore, but people will think it's Capaldi, and we'll end up with a teenager next year.

 

Mind you, with yet another white male in the role when people were pushing for a black Doctor or a woman Doctor, I'm thinking the Master regenerating into Missy is a precursor to the next Doctor being a black woman.

[alias1]

And to add to the opinions of Missy. I'm not her biggest fan, but mostly because she seems kind of like a slightly more wackier verson of River Song. Her personality basically fits into every other 'strong woman' Moffat has ever wrote so as much as I like Michelle Gomez, I feel like I've seen the character in so many other iterations before. 

While Missy has been kind of fun so far, I'm not a huge fan, and this is my biggest fear, that Moffat will turn her into some crazier version of River Song.  I did like that she was the one entrusted with the Doctor's will and not a companion.  They are always going to be temporary.  But I hope we aren't going to have Missy following him around the entire season.  A little of Missy goes a long way and Moffat never seems to know when to stop.

[Toaster Strudel]

I really love Missy and I would watch just for her. 

 

I was grateful that Clara's usual petulant emotional meltdown with the doctor was less than a dozen lines, and that she wasn't there for most of the beginning.  Her absence gives the plot so much breathing room.

[Mr. Simpatico]

I don't blame the actors (and Capaldi's the best thing about the show currently) but anyone can see the Moffat and the writing team are to blame for the flaws. Every other episode is about timey-wimey stuff (hey remember when the Doctor just explored space and time without being responsible for every single thing in that universe/time period) with an over-reliance on pressing the reset button so nothing bad ever really happens. How many times has the Earth ALMOST been destroyed or Clara seemingly killed but actually....not dead after all? And that's just in the last few years. Making the Doctor all of a sudden responsible for Davros is like that as well? Why does the backstory of every villain HAVE to involve our protagonist? Maybe Davros is evil...because he is evil.

 

Speaking of which I just can't take Missy seriously as a threat or an ally or anything or the show asking us to do so. It's not MG's fault. The dialogue is basically asking her to ham it up (this is not Jon Simm/Eric Roberts level but far ahead of Ainley). Delgado's Master was cold-blooded, deadly and had charm. Every Master incarnation since then has just gotten crazier and more over the top hammy and generally the actors have been TOLD to act that way (certainly Ainley and Simm said as much). Except for the brief moment of Derek Jacobi's Prof. Yana I don't think we've seen a Master that wasn't a self-parody of a villain since Delgado. When we go within minutes of Missy casually killing innocent UNIT officers just for kicks and giggles and then becoming Clara's ally and traveling companion and casually trading barbs on how she's the Doctor's BFF, while at the same time the show want us to think there is a serious moral conundrum in letting Davros, the genocidal creator of the Daleks, responsible for the deaths of untold billions, live - then it's the show/writing itself that has a moral conundrum. 

[MadMouse]

The world wasn't ready for a Derek Jacobi Master. Probably was RTD's biggest screw up other than not using the metacrisis when he originally wanted to,

[tennisgurl]

I just want to know what the hell was going on with that war we saw in the beginning. Bows and arrow battling WWI era planes with lasers? Super creepy hands with eyes that drag people into the Earth? I want to see more of that please! 

[Llywela]

What I have never understood is why the Doctor wants to save Davros?  The Master, yes, I can see him trying to save his old friend and fellow Time Lord. But, Davros?

I think the big dilemma over saving Davros is twofold - firstly, at the time the Doctor encounters him in danger, he's just a kid who hasn't done anything wrong - plus it could be that abandoning him to die causes the first physocological damage that leads him to become evil later, because secondly, the established timeline says quite clearly that Davros did not die in a minefield as a child, so allowing him to die there would change the course of history for the entire universe, which is a dangerous thing to be playing with.

 

Of course, Davros has still to receive his injuries at some point - I hope we don't end up seeing that happen to kid!Davros next week, the reason for his hatred for the Doctor and the start of his downward spiral, since Genesis was quite clear that it happened when he was old enough and brilliant enough to design his own life support system, on which the design of the Daleks was later based.

 

And, like The Doctor questioning where he was and how he got there, how did he get there; will the viewers ever know how/why he ended up there to start the episode?  And how did he not recognize either Skaro or k!Davros (because, 'timey-wimey')??  (or did he recognize Skaro at first, and I am blanking on that fact?)

There's absolutely no reason why the Doctor should recognise the child Davros, having only ever encountered him previously as a withered wreck of a man. And there's also no reason he should have recognised Skaro - he'd landed in no man's land, just a wasteland, with no buildings or other architecture to give any clue. I daresay he's seen lots of wastelands and lots of wars - he'd need a few more clues before identifying Skaro, and wasn't looking for clues as he was focused on the child in danger. And of course he wasn't there for the opening sequence of desperate fighting in the misty wasteland, which was deliberately designed to evoke the opening sequence of Genesis - that might have given him a clue!

 

How did the Doctor land on Skaro in its ancient past without realizing it?

 

Easily, I'd say. He's never been particularly good at steering the TARDIS. He regularly ends up somewhere entirely different than he was aiming! He can pull off extremely accurate landings, but has to really concentrate. He clearly wasn't concentrating.

 

Kate's new assistant:  I knew Osgood, Osgood was a friend of mine, and you, miss, are no Osgood.

No, but she is Jaye Griffiths, who is brilliant and deserves better material!

I just want to know what the hell was going on with that war we saw in the beginning. Bows and arrow battling WWI era planes with lasers? Super creepy hands with eyes that drag people into the Earth? I want to see more of that please! 

Then check out Genesis of the Daleks, which does give more of that - and goes into more depth in the explanation of this thousand-year war of attrition, which has been going on for so long that resources are running out and people are just fighting with what they can get hold of.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Llywela

[BizBuzz]

I enjoyed it!  I am really starting to like Missy and her shenanigans. 

 

Like others, I am a little tired of the trope of is Clara dead or not ... I am not totally invested in her as a companion. 

 

I am in it for the entertainment value, not how it stacks up in the continuity department, and I was thoroughly entertained, so it came off as a plus.

 

There were some significantly creepy scenes (the whole hand mine stuff and the snake man's face), some genuinely funny moments (wait, Davros is your archenemy now?), some throwbacks to Classic Who (I caught quotes from 4-5 different Doctors) and I can't lie, but I happen to love it when the Doctor hams it up, especially if there is a guitar involved.  ::giggle::

 

I wasn't spoiled, so Davros the kid threw me for a loop ... and I love the whole conundrum story line. 

 

All in all, I feel it was a great start to the season, and looking forward to next week!

[Kromm]

Like others, I am a little tired of the trope of is Clara dead or not ...

I don't know if you can count it as a "trope" yet. While it was a whole bunch of instances when she first showed up, they were all linked.  This current bit is really only the second time they've pulled this with her (and we all know she's not really gone this time, since she's got a whole season left before she presumably dies again).

[darkestboy]

Interesting opening episode. Will have a better grasp of it though after second part has aired.

 

Nice brief returns for UNIT, Shadow Proclamation, Dorium's place and Karn.

 

Sarff is the new snakelike Nyder.

 

Davros return was expected, welcomed and handled well too. Loved his scenes with the Doctor.

 

Clara and Missy won't be dead, that's a guarantee but I loved their scenes too as well as the plethora of different Daleks here, 9/10

[Bill C.]

I was mildly spoiled on this before I finally got to see it, so with that in mind...Missy as the Doctor's jealous, slightly pouty Dowager Countess frenemy (Dowager Mistress?...that kind of works), if in a haughtier vein than before, I can actually get behind--provided the show doesn't drive it into the ground.  And that's admittedly a rather large "provided."  However, I do agree with a comment upthread about how it probably contributed to a sort of tonal mismatch for part of the episode, which may not have helped with the overall seriousness of the A-story.  Then again, this is also the same episode where the Doctor left a tank in medieval England, so that ship has sailed and been sunk.

 

The story itself--which really had Clara as a sort of ancillary character, interesting touch there--was fairly straightforward, and probably saved by Davros him/itself.  I'm trying to ignore the "deaths" of Missy and Clara since duh, and the cliffhanger since SUPER DUH, but in itself it kind of worked (and, I won't lie, the callback to Genesis of the Daleks probably helped it immensely).  But it works up to a point, and I'm worried that that point occurred in the cliffhanger.

 

EDIT: handmines have one eye.  Daleks have one eyestalk.  Just me?

Edited September 21, 2015 by Bill C.

[benteen]

Also, the mutant inside of each Dalek (the actual Dalek itself) has one eye as well.

[Bruinsfan]

What worries me is that people are dropping out because they can't take Clara anymore, but people will think it's Capaldi, and we'll end up with a teenager next year.

 

Mind you, with yet another white male in the role when people were pushing for a black Doctor or a woman Doctor, I'm thinking the Master regenerating into Missy is a precursor to the next Doctor being a black woman.

That first is my worry as well. I'm watching despite Clara, not because of her, but I have a sinking feeling she occupies the same can-do-no-wrong, everyone-must-love-her-like-I-do space in Moffet's head that Rose did in RTD's.

 

That said, I don't hate the idea of, say, Thandie Newton as the Doctor once Capaldi's run is finished.

[basiltherat]

I am a fan of the Classic Who --, for some reason, I decided to watch this episode.  It took me coming to this board to learn that Missy was the Master, and now things make more sense.  I remember Genesis and the moral high horse Tom Baker's Doctor rode off on, and have seen many Dalek adventures since.  Clara is obnoxious (Peri was my most despised old school companion) but since she won't die, I would like to ask the new regime why ADRIC died and stayed dead, as did a couple characters back in Hartnell era.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Opening An Old Skaro / Has the maker of the Daleks met his own maker?

[LoneHaranguer]

 

There's absolutely no reason why the Doctor should recognise the child Davros, having only ever encountered him previously as a withered wreck of a man.

And how then did he recognize him? Was there only ever one person with that name in all of time and space?

 

 

It has occurred to the Time Lords before - trying to prevent the creation of the Daleks was the central plot of Genesis of the Daleks from way back in 1975!

Actually, the Time Lords just wanted to keep them from taking over the universe. They were also happy with the Doctor influencing their creation to make them less evil, or finding weaknesses that could be exploited in fighting them.

 

 

That had to be the lie unless Moffat is saying the First Doctor really wasn't the first.

For that to be the case, one of the Doctor's regenerations had to have not counted for some reason. Most likely, it would have been when the Doctor was forced to regenerate by the Time Lords early on, although there's an argument for it being when he used regeneration energy to heal himself while keeping the same body.

[elle]

The world wasn't ready for a Derek Jacobi Master. Probably was RTD's biggest screw up other than not using the metacrisis when he originally wanted to,

Derek Jacobi as the Master?  I was ready for it!  I was sorry to see him go/regenerate.   Which world do you mean?

 

And the metacrisis, I'm just guessing but did RTD want to use it at the end of 9's time?

[whoknowswho]

Yup. And the moment he first appeared on the screen, my 8yo daughter said "this guy is a lot like Voldemort" -- she meant his voice and the way he moved. She had no idea yet that he was actually made up of snakes! Speaking of which -- very innovative creature.

 

The first time I watched the episode last night, I thought "whoa, the Doctor's going to kill young Davros and then have to deal with the guilt and something will go wrong anyway but whoa."  This morning on rewatch, I instantly thought "whoa -- he's not going to kill young Davros at all!!!  He's there to save him! He's going to exterminate the HAND MINES." And I'm convinced that's what's going to happen. "I'm going to save my friends, THE ONLY WAY I KNOW HOW." We're meant to presume that means 'the only way' is killing Davros. But it really means the only way that the DOCTOR CAN -- and the Doctor can't kill an innocent child, no matter how he knows the kid will turn out. Especially with that speech old-Davros had just given about 'compassion is wrong'. If the Doctor goes back to kill the child, he would be agreeing with that statement. And thus Davros would still 'win'. So he goes back to prove that compassion is RIGHT, that it's always right to save the child, and maybe even hope that this saving will be a positive influence on the man the child will become.

 

(Watching it the second time for me was my daughter's first time. At the end when I had that thought I went "OHHHH I think I know what's going to happen!" She said what, I asked her what she thought. She said "he's gone to kill the boy so he never creates the Dalek." I said "But do you really think the Doctor could kill a child like that?" and she immediately also went "OHHHHHH he's going to exterminate the HANDS!!!"  Smart kid.)

 

I wonder too if there's even more to it than that. I suspect that the Doctor going back again to save Davros is what had always happend. Old-Davros remembers the Doctor coming back to save him by exterminating the hand mines. And that's why Davros concocted this whole thing -- bringing the Doctor to see him, making it look like he killed his friends and destroyed the Tardis, jeering him on about compassion and the time he let the boy live. It was all designed to cause the Doctor to go back and save the boy, which as far as Davros was concerned had already happened that way. Timey wimey.

 

There is a definite time jump that happens after the 'destruction' scene and the Doctor's re-arrival on old Skaro -- where did he get the Dalek weapon? How did he travel there? So something has happened in the meantime that we haven't been shown yet. Someone above commented that we didn't actually see the Doctor abandon the boy, but in fact we do see it -- I also wonder if it's the fact that he abandoned him, failed to show compassion, which is causing him to feel shame, rather than the shame of NOT killing him when he had a chance.

 

And yet, I also can't help but wonder if this is all orchestrated by the Doctor, rather than by Davros. The point that perhaps the Doctor sent the will-thing to Missy was so that she would be there on Skaro is an intriguing one -- and thus all his protests against them coming along are false. "I think you've been lying" said Clara, and possibly even more than we've been let on to. His histrionics at their impending doom were grossly out of character -- getting down on his knees and begging??? Looks to me like he's just playing up what Davros said about his weakness being his friends. The vortex manipulators were clearly Chekhov guns. The Tardis would not be destroyed that easily (aside: Missy's comment about never believe a man about his vehicle made me guffaw). And Missy predictably turns and tries to get the Daleks on her side -- Doctor is begging "Missy no" and Clara does... nothing? Again, it seems like an act. Missy was supposedly on this adventure in order to save her friend, would she really turn on him like that? Well, honestly, maybe. She's crazy like that. That's what makes it tricky to parse. But if it is all a convincing act, then it gives Davros the illusion of being in control. But what's the Doctor's end game if this is the case? That, I don't know yet.

 

Who made Davros -- the Doctor (in the first visit) did tell him "choose to survive." That's certainly what Davros has done, his entire too-long life. He refuses to die, because the Doctor told him to choose to survive.

 

The guitar scene was indeed silly and self-indulgent -- and that was the point. The Doctor was 'making noise' and that would actually play into the theory of it all being a setup by him. Fun note: anachronism has its root words ana "backwards" and chronos "time".  The Doctor himself is LITERALLY an anachronism, even without the guitar. I found the guitar bit still a bit eye-roll-worthy, even though I understood that it was supposed to be out of character for 12 (he explained it as "all of me is invited" which I thought was lovely) -- but my 8yo daughter LOVED that scene. So I won't object to it. :)

 

BTW the first song he was playing was clearly a variation of the theme music (cheesy). The second song, though, when he saw Missy and Clara, was NOT "Oh Missy you're so fine" -- it was Pretty Woman (Roy Orbison). Which of them was he directing that too, I wonder?  ;)  There was an intriguing use of 'dialogue' via music through the episode though, when you do also add in the "Missy you so fine" bit (originally Mickey, of course).

 

Was annoyed at super-Clara solving all of Unit's problems. But she did get that computer upgrade all those years ago, and she did exist inside the Doctor's timeline, so I can accept her having unusual knowledge and abilities. Her teaching is terrible, though. Jane Austen was a good kisser? Huh? And making up hashtags -- #planeshavestopped... first of all that looks like plane shaves topped. Second of all, no way would that be the hashtag. It's too grammatically complete lol... And why was Unit calling the school? Doesn't she have a special burner phone from them? Way to blow your cover.

 

Finally, my clever and often-mentioned 8yo daughter said today that the Doctor and Missy should get married and have lots of little Gallifreyan babies. That's how they'll repopulate the Timelords after them having been destroyed by the Time War (or wherever they are now). Since the Master now has the appropriate reproductive organs, it's a theoretical possibility -- the last man and woman of their kind, it's almost their duty.

I caught the "Hey Micki" (you're so fine)- that was easy- and I didn't get what he was playing until he switched to Pretty Woman, and I thought- is he playing this for Clara? (Barf) or for Missy? 

I like Missy/this Master, she's funny and entertaining and evil.   I like her and The Doctor and it would be a hoot to see them travel together. Just please, please, please get rid of Clara, I am so very sick of her. I almost stopped watching last year and it's the only season of Nu Who that I haven't watched over and over- last season I was almost done with Doctor Who- I didn't love Capaldi though I think it was the writing more than anything- but seeing him cranking on a guitar riff in shades- well I thought that was cool.  I liked him better this episode.

Never really watched Classic Who except when it was first running, and I really can't remember much except for the bad effects and Tom Baker's scarf. Never had a need to go back and watch the early stuff because Moffat never makes anything stick and have consequences- except killing off Rory and Amy- that one stuck. I miss them. :) 

I didn't love last season, half the time I couldn't hear it and half the time it needed to be watched several times and I still didn't get it.  Not sure how I'm going to feel if I'm forced to watched another season of Clara- is she the longest running companion now? Seems she's been here FOREVER. 

Edited September 21, 2015 by whoknowswho

[alias1]

Amy and Rory weren't killed off.  They lived in another time, quite happily Amy said, and lived to be in their 80's.  I thought it was a great end for them and I hope Moffat gives Clara an equally nice send off. 

 

I know someone asked this earlier, but I didn't see a response.  Who was the Magician's Apprentice?

[truther]

 

I know someone asked this earlier, but I didn't see a response.  Who was the Magician's Apprentice?

We don't know yet, do we?  Though the medieval Londoners were calling the Doctor "Magician," weren't they, so perhaps next week's finale will tell us which of Missy, Clara or some other person is his apprentice, which would explain the whole setup with Clara thinking she was getting the will and Missy having to explain to her how their relationship actually works. 

[Pattycake2]

 

I am really not a fan of this recurrent 'the Doctor actually helped create the thing that he hates' trope that's been going on for a while now. I am also not a fan of New Who's ongoing theme of the Doctor being no better than the monsters he fights - that one goes way back to the 9th Doctor and his showdown with Blon the Slitheen way back in nu season one; I disliked it then and I dislike it now, because I feel like the show keeps trying to sell this idea as something true, something that has always been true, when it isn't.

 

Totally agree.  I found the hand mines totally creepy.  And the snake guy?  When he unraveled and you realize that his face is entirely made up of snakes, brrrrrrrrrr!

 

I'm hoping since Missy wasn't really dead and once again Missy and Clara aren't dead, that maybe Osgood isn't dead either.  Maybe she was jus transported as well.  

[benteen]

He might not have recognized the battlefield at first but once the Doctor heard the name Davros, it was pretty easy for him to put two-and-two together.

[MadMouse]

Derek Jacobi as the Master?  I was ready for it!  I was sorry to see him go/regenerate.   Which world do you mean?

 

And the metacrisis, I'm just guessing but did RTD want to use it at the end of 9's time?

 

It was just hyperbole on my part about the world not being ready. The Yanna/Master reveal is still one of the best moments in Who history.

 

Its been a long time since I read RTD's book but originally the metacrisis was supposed to be Ten's reward, a human life with Rose. The 11th would drop him off in her dimension.  There was more to it of course but that's all I remember. 

[Occasional Hope]

I heard it ran up against X-Factor, which is really popular in England but I'm not sure.

 

The show needs regime change and Moffat has been running the show for far too long.  I'd also like to see The Twelfth Doctor with a new companion that is better suited to him.

It was, but I was under the impression that XF was in decline itself.

 

A possible element is that Dr Who was on a bit later than usual, so possibly family viewers might have taped it to watch another day?

[MarkHB]

I caught a couple of riffs later in the "Doctor On a Guitar" interlude.  But no, I didn't catch the grand entrance music.  Do tell  :)

 

 

BTW the first song he was playing was clearly a variation of the theme music (cheesy). The second song, though, when he saw Missy and Clara, was NOT "Oh Missy you're so fine" -- it was Pretty Woman (Roy Orbison). Which of them was he directing that too, I wonder?  ;)  There was an intriguing use of 'dialogue' via music through the episode though, when you do also add in the "Missy you so fine" bit (originally Mickey, of course).

That's what I was getting at :)

 

 

Apparently viewing figures were down quite a bit - backlash from last season?

 

According to this,

BBC AMERICA’s Doctor Who rang in season 9 with a bang, delivering double digit growth from season 8 across all key demos in live plus same day ratings. The premiere episode ranks as Doctor Who’s biggest season premiere ever in the Adult 18-49 demo, which nearly doubled the season 8 average. The season debut also saw increased social engagement versus last season’s premiere, and reigned as the most social drama of the night and week leading into the premiere.

 

The press release goes on to say that Doctor Who beat everything that night except college football and the series finale of a show even older than Doctor Who, Sabado Gigante. Granted, that's US, not UK.

[John Potts]

I was wondering if Davros might actually be the son (or some other relative) of the Davros we know and hate - and his death convinced the "real" Davros that only through being callous and armoured could the Kaleds survive. Or something like that.

[Terrafamilia]

We don't know yet, do we?  Though the medieval Londoners were calling the Doctor "Magician," weren't they, so perhaps next week's finale will tell us which of Missy, Clara or some other person is his apprentice, which would explain the whole setup with Clara thinking she was getting the will and Missy having to explain to her how their relationship actually works. 

I just had a bizarre thought. What if, instead of killing kid Davros, the Doctor takes him on as a companion?

[AnnieBananie]

I liked the episode very much - lots of sneaky surprises, great performances, neat new characters...and then there's Clara...

 

Was it just me, or was the otherwise-terrific Michelle Gomez' accent going in and out? It was distracting. I was like, "Hey, now she's Scottish," whereas before she burr wasn't coming on as strong.

[penguinnj]

 

Aside from the Ood, River, the Angels and the stuff in the 50th, Moffat has referenced next to nothing from the RTD era

the Weeping Angels were Moffat's creations as was River, I believe.  The continuity I see is the continued presence and current personality of Missy/The Master.  Simm's Master- as Harold Saxon- reminds me a great deal of Missy.  They can both be completely over the top- just ape shit, bananas- but when the evil is funny, the plans are clever, and the doctor is still the only person in the room the Master would like to have a beer with, the chemistry is fantastic and there is a world of stuff to build explore.  My fav moment in this episode is when Missy enters the arena and calls him out "what the hell are you doing, man?" and the boo and hiss and smile at each other all at once.  Their basic philosophical difference is Missy really considers humans as the doctor's pets- referenced both in this epie and Death in Heaven- and the doctor does consider them people, possible companions, mates, chums, and occasionally romantic partners.

[sluggish neko]

When they killed off the black soldier in the first scene, I wondered when did Doctor Who become The Walking Dead? Seriously though, I was annoyed that the soldier was pulled into the ground like any other redshirt when all he was trying to do was help the kid.

 

As other posters mentioned, Missy does resemble a zanier and more murdery version of River Song (the part where she steps out carelessly into "space" reminds me of the scene River airlocked herself out of the spaceship and into the TARDIS). Still, she entertains me. And no, there's no way I believe that she and Clara are dead. How many times have they been killed and come back in some form or another? At this point, they're wearing indestructible plot armor. Same goes for the Doctor.

 

I too am tired of all these episodes centered on the Doctor dying and timey-wimey cleverness. I found this episode as a season opener jarring with all talk of death and the heavy, heavy soul-crushing consequences of time travel. It seems like it's more fitting for a season ender... especially since the Doctor is going up against his archenemy Davos (sorry, Missy-- you're more of a frenemy). Shouldn't a season opening episode be a little lighter? I felt like this needed more build-up.

[whoknowswho]

Amy and Rory weren't killed off.  They lived in another time, quite happily Amy said, and lived to be in their 80's.  I thought it was a great end for them and I hope Moffat gives Clara an equally nice send off. 

 

I know someone asked this earlier, but I didn't see a response.  Who was the Magician's Apprentice?

I know they weren't *really* killed off, but sent back in time almost 100 years and lived happily. The Doctor couldn't go back and ever see them again, as he told Amy at the graveyard.

I really didn't feel that either Missy or Clara were actually dead, we've been faked out so many times so many ways.  I'll freely admit to wishing Clara WAS no longer the most special Impossible Girl EVER, but really "the puppy".

Great analogy, that. 

[Commando Cody]

It was kind of nice that in one of the episodes, Clara had a copy of one of Amy's children's books. 

[benteen]

I just had a bizarre thought. What if, instead of killing kid Davros, the Doctor takes him on as a companion?

 

That would be intriguing as hell and something I thought about recently.  The Doctor takes a younger Davros as his companion as a way of saving his soul.  That could be a really compelling storyline.

 

I've also thought that the Davros in the beginning might not be the "true" Davros.  That would remind me of an episode of the UPN Twilight Zone.

Edited September 22, 2015 by benteen

[cardigirl]

Was it just me, or was the otherwise-terrific Michelle Gomez' accent going in and out? It was distracting. I was like, "Hey, now she's Scottish," whereas before she burr wasn't coming on as strong.

I think she was using that as a joke, or for emphasis, because the Doctor sounds Scottish. Like overemphasizing the sounds?  

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I like Missy/this Master, she's funny and entertaining and evil.

I'm not sure Missy is any more evil than the Doctor is these days. Evil is often defined by whose side you're on. She comes off as more ruthless because the Doctor is the one who makes friends with the animals and has reason to hand-wring them being in danger or dying from what he does; Missy keeps her distance emotionally. I suppose it'd be too much to expect to see Clara killed off just to see how Missy reacts. Missy had a good point about her and the Doctor trying to kill each other not being that big a deal since they're Time Lords (and can regenerate).