Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER

Tara Ariano

S09.E01: The Magician's Apprentice

Recommended Posts


OK, that was mostly good though it went off the rails at the end. I floved the fact that it was The Master/Mistress that was the Doctor's Secret Keeper (whatever she called it) and not Clara, because I really dislike the idea that whichever Companion is the Most! Specialest! Person! Ever! as opposed to somebody who he has in fact known most of his life (over a millennium, in fact, although it might be different for The Master). But screwing with Earth just to get the Doctor's attention was pretty much a traditional Master move and I thought that "Trying to kill him? That's just flirting!" was consistent with at least some of his previous incarnations. Liked Clara's reasoning how you could find the Doctor (and the reference to "Three different versions of Atlantis" - Moffat IS a student of Who history!) and the Master's escape was fairly slick.

 

Unfortunately, once we got to Skaro it rather went off the rails. Though I do believe the Doctor would go to see Davros simply because he was dying, I don't for a moment believe either Clara or Missy are dead (or at least, dead permanently) and I was hoping that the Doctor would actually save Davros even knowing what he would do (which he might ultimately do, I suppose), but even if he does kill Davros (or allow him to die) Moffat shows a complete inability to let anything have any consequences, so it won't make any difference. Which is a shame.

 

ETA: It definitely didn't need the extra five minutes - had it been five minutes shorter we could've been spared the Fanfic-y "Let's put the Doctor in a tank! And playing an electric guitar! Because that would be Kewl!" I sometimes wish that DW had to make do with its traditional budget because they had to be inventive with how they used it (and the small scale stories are often much better - Blink, Midnight - than the huge effects-fests (like Last of the Timelords)

 

ETA2: I'll happily spoiler bar all this if people feel it should be, but I thought It was OK to post once it had aired in the UK?

Edited by John Potts
  • Love 4

Share this post


Link to post

Not certain, but i think your post belongs in spoilers until the episode airs in U.S.? Maybe not. I'll try to resist reading it til after 10pm tonight here.

Share this post


Link to post

I don't think we should need to spoiler-tag episode discussion in a dedicated episode thread - the episode has aired in its home country, and this thread is for discussing it. For anyone who hasn't seen it yet and doesn't want to be spoiled, it is surely easy enough to just not go into the discussion thread dedicated to it!

 

As for the episode itself, it was entertaining enough, I suppose, with some nice moments (happy to see Jaye Griffiths on my screen again!), but also with all the usual niggles that always bother and irritate me (how I hated seeing Kate Steward reduced to an idiot so that Clara could take over at UNIT and run the whole show!). I have made my peace with the fact that the style of the Moffat era is not for me. At least, I think I have. Next time I get enraged, that'll be the test!

Edited by Llywela
  • Love 10

Share this post


Link to post

ETA: It definitely didn't need the extra five minutes - had it been five minutes shorter we could've been spared the Fanfic-y "...And playing an electric guitar! Because that would be Kewl!"

It was the highlight of the last 24 hours of my life, but then I'm old and currently feeble. I thought Capaldi gave us peek at what Keith Richards would look like today if he'd not taken so many drugs and gotten more sleep.
  • Love 11

Share this post


Link to post

I really enjoyed it, especially the acting by Capaldi, Gomez, and Bleach (Davros).  Some favorite parts:

  • Davros' line about the Doctor's new face looking like his--there's something poignant about that.
  • Missy's whole speech to Clara about her complex relationship with the Doctor and how their friendship is deeper than anything humans experience.
  • When Clara tries to bolster the Doctor's spirit as he leaves to see Davros, the Doctor's face goes through so many emotions.  I got the feeling he wasn't just sad/ashamed there.  Clara just said something about how the Doctor had been lying all along, and it seemed like the he was pleased Clara realized that--like she was onto something that would help them get out of this mess.  I'm not explaining it very well, but that moment seemed like more than just a throwaway.
  • I liked the guitar part because Capaldi looked like he was having so much fun (I didn't need the "Dude" part, though).

All in all, a great opener; I can't wait for next week!

  • Love 7

Share this post


Link to post

I didn't like the Dude part or the time history jokes but the guitar bit was fun. The rest of the episode was good. I know nothing that happened at the end will last but it was cool. I think The doctor will save the Boy and create what he hates. Which will call back to the Dalek episode last year. 

Edited by tarotx

Share this post


Link to post

Dude.

 

Why do I feel that the story is going to be a mess even after the second part? So . . . Missy winds up endangering the Earth because she's trying to find the Doctor. I'll admit, it's fun seeing Michelle Gomez ham it up, everything just felt disjointed. And the Doctor meeting Davros as a child? It's as big a headache as Clara meeting the young Doctor last season. I did like the guitar number, though.

 

ETA: Who is the "Magician's Apprentice"? Lil Davros? Clara?

  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post

I really liked the kernel of the story. It's the "would you kill Hitler" argument, but Davros is such an integral part of DW history. The call back to Four was great, too. Of course, the end of "Genesis of the Daleks" was basically written that way only to keep them around for a TV show when it was obviously a net positive for the universe to destroy them.

 

With Capaldi coming back at the end, I get the feeling Part 2 is going to be a Groundhog Day cheat where he reacts to the situation in different ways. This is one of the less sterling character traits of the Doctor. People like Davros or the Master are more important than the untold number of sentient beings killed by them.

  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post

Meh.  I don't want to complain all the time so I'll only do it this week.  The ep was . . . just not particularly engaging.  There were some good little bits here and there but overall it lacks the feel of the earlier seasons.  In particular, the ep continued this problematic trend of always getting bigger, and more dramatic, and more sweeping.  Oh boy, Daleks again.  And now the Doctor is responsible for all of it.  And not only have random people been killed, but also Missy, and Clara, and the Tardis.  All within a few seconds.  Oh, no, that's horrible, really. 

 

It's as though the budget's too big.  There's too much.  And the result is something with lots going on but with very little soul.

  • Love 8

Share this post


Link to post

So...Reset Button next week?

 

I was spoiled about the Davros thing since April because of the internet sites.  BAH!

 

I thought the opening sequence on Skaro was excellent and the hand mines was creepy.  Really, really liked that.

 

Enjoyed seeing alien races like the Ood, the Judoon and the Sisterhood of Karn pop up.

 

The snake monster was cool.

 

Suspending the planes in midair was Classic Who and Missy is a nasty piece of work.

 

The Doctor and the guitar was self-indulgent.  Basically the show (or in this cast Moffat) wanting the Doctor to be wacky for the sake of being wacky.  Stop trying so damn hard to force a moment.  Around this time, the episode became set-up.

 

Bleach was terrific as Davros and was used well.  Nice seeing the Classic Who clips.  I would recommend Genesis of the Daleks to anybody.

 

I agree things went off the rails when we got to Skaro.  Not sure what to expect next week.

Edited by benteen
  • Love 2

Share this post


Link to post

(how I hated seeing Kate Steward reduced to an idiot so that Clara could take over at UNIT and run the whole show!).

Maybe it was the Zygon-Kate still a little confused from having its memory wiped by  UNIT/WarDoc,10, & 11

 

It's as though the budget's too big.  There's too much.  And the result is something with lots going on but with very little soul.

This. 

 

 sometimes wish that DW had to make do with its traditional budget because they had to be inventive with how they used it (and the small scale stories are often much better - Blink, Midnight - than the huge effects-fests (like Last of the Timelords)

and this, so sad but true!

Edited by elle
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post

We already saw the Doctor preparing to die in The Impossible Astronaut by screwing around throughout history. I guess he can't do it all the time because it would get boring. Of course, the Doctor won't die, the Daleks won't die and Davros won't die.

Share this post


Link to post

I don't for a moment believe either Clara or Missy are dead (or at least, dead permanently) and I was hoping that the Doctor would actually save Davros even knowing what he would do (which he might ultimately do, I suppose), but even if he does kill Davros (or allow him to die) Moffat shows a complete inability to let anything have any consequences, so it won't make any difference. Which is a shame.

 

Exactly.  We all know it will be undone next week.  I'm not a fan of two- parters anyway, but there was a lot of filler here.  I'm sure Moffat could have written one much better episode instead of stringing this "should we kill hitler" idea over two weeks.  I did enjoy most of it and I'm so happy to have the Doctor back.  Maybe next week, I'll have to eat my words. 

Share this post


Link to post

The episode was the usual Moffat bombast (the hand mines were right out of his playbook of "creepy, yet creative villains"), but I'm going to find some way to work "Tell us why you are here, or we will take your skin" into conversation this week.

Share this post


Link to post

So...Reset Button next week?

 

I was spoiled about the Davros thing since April because of the internet sites.  BAH!

 

Enjoyed seeing alien races like the Ood, the Judoon and the Sisterhood of Karn pop up.

 

Bleach was terrific as Davros and was used well.  Nice seeing the Classic Who clips.  I would recommend Genesis of the Daleks to anybody.

 

.

I loved seeing the Ood. 

 

Genesis of the Daleks is on tomorrow morning at 9am

Share this post


Link to post

I have to say it was kind of intriguing... the little Davaros surprised me etc . but ... I don't know.  honestly, as Just this once, everybody lives!" how this will end  boringly. 

 

Hi Ood!  Missed you!

Share this post


Link to post

Those hand mines were creepy AF. I could not look at those. And it didn't even occur to me that the hand-eye was a Davros reference until he said his name.

  • Love 2

Share this post


Link to post

Just to follow up, there is no need for spoilers in this thread after the show has aired in the UK. We usually try to keep the thread locked until it has started to air and then it is read-at-your-own-risk.

  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post

Assorted thoughts:

  • How can a premiere have so little Doctor?  After the pre-theme-song bit with young Davros and the glimpse on Karn, we didn't see him again until the second half of the episode!  I found myself thinking, "This couldn't possibly be the Doctor-lite episode, could it?"
  • Because "Logical flow, thy name is not Moffat," it was super-jarring to catch the last few minutes of "Last Christmas" with Doctor and Clara going off happily together for adventures, and then jump straight into the Doctor being on his own again and Clara back doing the regular old Earth thing.  I really wish Moffat would stop opening on the Doctor and his companion(s) separated for long stretches.
  • I can't quite believe how obviously not-dead Clara and Missy are.  I mean, aside from the whole, "Well, OBVIOUSLY they're not dead," of it all, it was just SO obvious.  They disappeared!  That's not in the least how extermination works - I'll give the Doctor a pass for now, since Davros is clearly throwing off his game, and even the possibility of his friends having been killed is going to leave him distraught, but he'd better twig to it sooner rather than later.
  • Although, that begs the question of WHY they're not dead (other than the meta reasons, of course.)  What incentive do the Daleks and Davros have for faking their deaths when they could've just killed them (Clara, at least - Missy probably would've regenerated?)
  • Not sure what Davros's play is.  Other than twisting the knife into the Doctor's sense of guilt and doing the whole, "Look at how much blood the man of peace has on his hands!!" thing that Who villains just love doing, what does he actually want?  He's not TRYING to manipulate the Doctor into killing him as a child, is he?  It's the only thing that comes to mind, but it's also completely bonkers.
  • I'll admit to liking the electric guitar, but I wish it had been in a different context, and I didn't like the rest of it.  It seemed out of character for the Doctor to be such a mess like that; he's approached plenty of presumed deaths with a lot more dignity than that.  Is it an act?  Is this gonna be another "The Wedding of River Song" where it turns out the Doctor knew exactly what was going on and had the upper hand the whole time, so that every emotion or reacted expressed in this story is going to turn out to be put on for part of a clever plan?  Not sure which I'm hoping for at this point - I hate having all the Doctor's reactions nullified, but the whole Doctor's Last Hurrah scene was just embarrassing.
  • Loved the hand mines, really liked Missy's description of her relationship with the Doctor, and the Skaro reveal was exciting to me.  Given the story, it was no surprise, but the way it was executed was cool, and I liked Missy's role in figuring it out.
  • I'm glad that (even though they've been apart again for reasons unknown) the Doctor and Clara seem to be in a much better place.  They actually seemed like mutual friends who care about each other, and Clara demonstrated some understanding of the Doctor.  Thank God!
  • Genesis of the Daleks!  Unlimited rice pudding!  I squeed.
Edited by angora
  • Love 2

Share this post


Link to post

You know what would have been a good premiere? The Doctor doesn't help kid Davros, Davros lives anyway, then thanks the Doctor for teaching him that there is no salvation other than yourself. Bam, Doctor creates Davros. Actually, it would be twice, because Four let him live in "Genesis of the Daleks."

  • Love 5

Share this post


Link to post

i think i would like an arc where the Master/Missy would accompany the doctor and clara for like a season.....have character development between Missy and clara/doctor.....and then cliffhangers into Missy being seduced to the dark side again, making the next encounter a bit painful for all parties (and possibly Missy to be the catalyst for Clara's departure, death or otherwise)......i wish they'd go this route when they finally look for galifrey/find galifrey.

  • Love 2

Share this post


Link to post

Nice continuity reference to Classic Who by mentioning there are at least 3 of Atlantis. 

 

The war with the Thals is described as a war of attrition in reverse and that was brilliantly realized in the opening scene.

Edited by benteen
  • Love 3

Share this post


Link to post

Found it to be mostly meh with an occasional good bit. Wish the show would go back to being something compelling that made you think...and feel. This episode just seemed shiny, superficial, and silly. It also doesn't help that I cannot stand Missy.

  • Love 4

Share this post


Link to post

I really enjoyed this episode, myself. I like how it tied in with previous Who continuity (the Tom Baker bit was particularly clever, I thought; wonder if that is what inspired the story or if they just found that ref while creating it and tied it in?), and I really enjoy Michelle Gomez' Master/MIssy. I haven't liked the Master so much since Anthony Ainley (and I had such high hopes for John Simms' version, but was sorely disappointed). At this point, I hope Missy takes over Clara's place as the Doctor's companion, at least for a while. That would be such a great show. 

 

(And the friendship speech she gave was awesome.)

 

I also appreciate that we are going to be shown- rather than told- how Missy survived last season's finale. Clearly, whatever trick she pulled then is the same one she used this episode with herself and Clara.

 

EDIT: I should also mention, the dynamic between Missy and the Doctor since Gomez took over not only has turned me around to the concept of a female Master- which I was skeptical of- but this episode really made me think that it might be time for a female Doctor as well. 

Edited by Cthulhudrew
  • Love 3

Share this post


Link to post

Oh my giddy aunt, I did enjoy that.  Recently  rewatched Genesis- a nice coincidence.  

I loved seeing the doctor rock out- bits of 11 who could be a real ham before he "got to big" and 10 who always loved a good party.  That "nothing to loose so smoke em if you got em" attitude is not new and I find it endearing. 

Love everything about Missy and the visuals for Skaro were amazing.

Plus I've seen the interview Capaldi did with Craig Ferguson where the two reminisce about their band and dropping acid and generally being young and I have wanted to see him play ever since.

Edited by penguinnj
  • Love 3

Share this post


Link to post

Moffat couldn't resist a stupid line like Missy saying "I've known the Doctor since he was a little girl."  Hopefully that was the lie.

Share this post


Link to post

Anyone notice Missy tickling a ball on one of the Daleks?

 

Yes, cracked me up. I was a bit on the fence about her blatant innuendos and flirtations with the Doctor last season, given that she has been a male character for all of her known incarnations up to this point, and it almost felt a bit forced. Like "she's a girl now, so we can have her hit on the Doctor all the time!" 

 

That said, one of the best parts of her friendship speech tonight was addressing that the feelings of affection the two Time Lords have for one another are of a different caliber than that which we baser, more hormonally driven humans tend to consider in regards male/female relations, and that acknowledgement by the character (and presumably, the writers) allowed me a bit more reserve to appreciate the overtly "sexual" antics of Missy. It's just another nuance of her ability to make light of and manipulate others, not so much an actual representation of her own feelings and inclinations vis a vis her sexuality. Just as the Doctor tends to be prudish about such things, Missy's new incarnation has given her a freedom to play around with the concept of gender and the expectations and apprehensions others have about such things. Certainly it's fitting with the character, who uses every trick at his/her disposal to set their enemies off-guard (and just have a crazy good time). 

 

I actually hope they continue to explore- if only in a very playful, off-handed way- the attitudes of Gallifreyans towards gender and identity, through both Missy and the Doctor. It's never really been something that they've been positioned to deal with, or until the recent series, have had a public environment in which to do so. Obviously, that changed somewhat with Ten (and his comments to Rose and Jack Harkness about gender) and Jack Harkness' own polyamorous tendencies- but this is the first time we can really kind of have fun with it from a Gallifreyan perspective.

 

(I actually kind of find myself wondering at the antics Anthony Ainley's Master might have had if attitudes in the 80s had been a bit more lenient; his Master always did kind of toe the line between nemesis and flirtation.)

Moffat couldn't resist a stupid line like Missy saying "I've known the Doctor since he was a little girl."  Hopefully that was the lie.

 

Thought it rather humorous, myself. Kind of makes the whole "Susan is the Doctor's grand-daughter" thing take on a possibly new meaning. :D

  • Love 3

Share this post


Link to post

Clara and Missy obviously got teleported (well, at least Missy)......like how Missy survived that shot from the cyberman...teleported.

I assume that for Clara it will turn out to be the time wristy thing. They made too big a point of that. And we never actually saw the Tardis get destroyed. I think that Missy was goading them into trying to destroy it if she couldn't trick them into letting them inside. The Daleks already know what the Tardis can do. That is why Nine sent it away in "Parting of the Ways."

I enjoyed the various trips down memory lane and i didn't guess from the original soldiers that it was Scaro until Davros said his name. But i agree there was a lot of throwing things against the wall and hoping it would stick to this episode. And even my wife who isn't a fan was basically "haven't we seen this debate with Davros before?"

I did enjoy Clara and Missy (although agree about Unit) and also that it was Missy that he sent his will to. Although you have to wonder if that wasn't because he wanted her there when he confronted Davros.

Share this post


Link to post

One thing that Moffat has done for the better is he's made a real effort at restoring the old frenemy dynamic between the Doctor and the Master.  After Delgado's untimely death, that dynamic largely disappeared between the Doctor and the Master.

  • Love 2

Share this post


Link to post

One thing that Moffat has done for the better is he's made a real effort at restoring the old frenemy dynamic between the Doctor and the Master.  After Delgado's untimely death, that dynamic largely disappeared between the Doctor and the Master.

 

I don't know. It's been a long time since I've seen the episodes, but I seem to recall that Ainley and Peter Davison had that element to a degree (the arc that comes to mind is The King's Demons). 

 

But generally speaking, yes, I would agree. I think there were a couple of moments between Simm and Tennant that worked, but were largely overshadowed by hamfisted plots and Simm's hamminess in the role.

  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post

I didn't have any problem with Missy flirting because Simm's Master and Ten were super flirty IMO and they had a lot of UST IMO. So that was fine with me.

  • Love 4

Share this post


Link to post
ETA: It definitely didn't need the extra five minutes - had it been five minutes shorter we could've been spared the Fanfic-y "Let's put the Doctor in a tank! And playing an electric guitar! Because that would be Kewl!" I sometimes wish that DW had to make do with its traditional budget because they had to be inventive with how they used it (and the small scale stories are often much better - Blink, Midnight - than the huge effects-fests (like Last of the Timelords)

 

 

I see it as The Doctor being what he is: A giant dork. Capaldi plays it well.

 

What I didn't like was that this is like, the fifth time in the Moffat era where The Doctor thought that he was really going to die this time. Clara and Missy aren't dead either (I'm assuming the reset button's gonna be pressed pretty hard next week). Other than that, loved the episode, especially seeing the old school Daleks in motion. Anyone else catch the all too brief cut to the Special Weapons Dalek?!

 

Also, was this the first time the Master and Davros were in the same episode?

  • Love 4

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Customize font-size