S09.E01: The Magician's Apprentice

[benteen]

Yep.  I think this is only the second time The Master has been seen with a Dalek as well.

 

I missed the Special Weapons Daleks.  A lot of them were in that scene and a lot of familiar alien species were in that bar season in the beginning.

[bmoore4026]

Missy continues to be my favorite character.  And it looks like The Doctor got a personality make over.  Wonder how long this'll last?

[benteen]

Odd that after Last Christmas, the Doctor and Clara find themselves separated again.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Odd that after Last Christmas, the Doctor and Clara find themselves separated again.

 

I am still watching, and I will continue to watch, but I wonder if that separation will be explained.  And if not, it will be disappointing.

 

Even more disappointing is if it turns out that they have went back to the S8 "Clara only visits once a week" formula, after Last Christmas and its ending.

[MarkHB]

Several of the aliens in the bar scene actually had small-print "Created by" credits at the end.

 

And, since no one else mentioned it (meaning either it's painfully obvious or... I can't resist lampshading), did anyone/everyone else catch just what it was that the Doctor was playing on the guitar for his grand entrance?

[Kalliste]

I liked the beginning and wondered how they were going to get out of that handmine situation! And then... the story started to go down hill.. I mean really, why would UNIT ask for Clara's help, what does she have to offer? Obviously it was made to seem like she is important but the team at UNIT would have been able to unravel it all, they have known the doctor a while too.

 

I did like Missy being the 'closest friend' and not Clara, at least there was that. I would have thought it would have gone to Rose or River and would have loved it if went to the doctors best mate Donna but oh well.

 

I'm also glad it was Missy who worked out the gravity thing and that The Doctor told her about it and it wasn't Clara's fantastic idea.

 

Overall, I actually enjoyed Missy this episode which is unusual because I didn't particularly like her at all last season.

 

And I liked 12 for the most part, I liked the lighter Capaldi (even if it was because he thought he was going to die) and hope he's less of a grump for the coming season.

[futurechemist]

I'll reserve final judgment until after next week's conclusion, but I was disappointed.  The first 30 minutes felt like 4 different episodes that were randomly flung together.  The Doctor meets Young Davros!  The Doctor is partying in medieval England!  The Master has frozen the skies!  Some snake guy on roller snakes is hunting the Doctor! And it never really came together into 1 coherent plot.  And it did feel like a retread of 10 and 11 putting off their deaths by running around and partying.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic about having every episode this season be a 2-parter.  Kind of makes it more like classic Who, and will hopefully allow more complex stories.

 

So many redshirts this episode.  Including Sir Bors, the guy who seemed like a decent friend in the prequel but then turned out to be a Dalek puppet.

 

Does BBC America hate Christopher Eccleston?  All the marathons and commercials leading up to the premier totally ignored 9, even as they're showing a marathon of 4 tomorrow.

[rallymantis]

Does BBC America hate Christopher Eccleston?

 

Eh, they'll still show Season 9 from time to time -- but I get the sense that, because Eccleston two-fingered-up the 50th, they don't give him any extra pr.

 

ETA, since the first part of this post should probably be moved to the 9 thread:

 

Yes: Davros' line about the Doctor finally having a similar face was moving.  Maybe it's because I'm over 50, too, but that old caveat about "getting the face you deserve" rang true here.

Edited September 20, 2015 by gutette1

[Llywela]

(the Tom Baker bit was particularly clever, I thought; wonder if that is what inspired the story or if they just found that ref while creating it and tied it in?),

Oh, this was absolutely inspired by Genesis of the Daleks, 100% - it's one of the most famous Classic adventures, one Moffat knows extremely well. He didn't randomly come up with the idea of kid Davros and only later realise he could tie it in. He thought of the 4th Doctor's famous confrontation with Davros in Genesis and decided to take it one step further. Personally, I don't think he should have gone there. Not least because it takes the timey-wimeyness a step too far, imo. If Davros has encountered the Doctor as a child it would have impacted all their later confrontations - we may find next week there's a reason why it didn't, but I don't trust Moffat and his team to actually think through all the ramifications. The cool concept generally outweighs all other considerations in this era.

 

I don't like Missy, either. I think Michelle Gomez does a fine job - she's been told to go for over-the-top wackiness and she does. But when I think of the suave elegance of the original Master... *sigh*

 

I gave up on Clara a long time ago.

[shapeshifter]

Oh boy, Daleks again...

I'm hoping that The Dr does kill young Davros so we can be done with the Daleks and their silly Speak N Spell voices once and for all.

I'm not going to spoil myself by looking at the casting for the season, but it would be a bold move to leave Clara dead, and I say that as someone who has never hated her for being a bit obnoxious at times.

Snake face guy was creepy looking.

[j5cochran]

Every time I saw snake guy, I kept thinking "Guy on a Segway." Only was to make him float, I suppose?

Guy on a Segway.

 

It took me until the end of the episode to figure out that his movements across the floor were very snake-like.  I don't think he ever moved in a straight line.

[Kromm]

Prediction: The no-win choice The Doctor seems to have is false. Clara and Missy aren't actually dead. Either the whole scene we saw with them was an illusion created by Davros, or at least the later part of it was (in that case perhaps by Missy--fooling Davros).

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Worse prediction; the thing that Missy/Clara (& TARDIS) did to make it look like they died, but [obviously] didn't, was a set up on their end.  Some elaborate plan The Doctor put together to fool Davros & SnakePerson - then The Doctor has to act the part of thinking they really died.  OR, The Doctor & Missy are in on it, but not Clara (initially, at least).

 

Wouldn't be the first time we've seen either happen, some rare times even both. 

[Silverleaf]

I'm another who doesn't like Missy. Why couldn't they have reintroduced The Rani? Missy is too much like when Joanna Lumley played the doctor.

[wayne67]

I did like Missy being the 'closest friend' and not Clara, at least there was that. I would have thought it would have gone to Rose or River and would have loved it if went to the doctors best mate Donna but oh well.

 

Isn't Rose in another universe and isn't Donna kind of prohibited from knowing about space time stuff in case her brain explodes from left over time lord memories ? I did find it hilarious that Clara was compared to an old couple's dog, she is loved dearly but the couple knows that while the puppy can be taken on walks/adventures she'll die and will probably be replaced quite a few times before the end.

 

Other than that I kind of dreaded seeing a new Doctor Who episode but it wasn't as bad as I expected until the part where they disappeared/disintegrated, mostly because I've seen that before in the episode with the Big Brother in Space where a contestant was teleported instead of incinerated. Also it does kind of lower the stakes when everything becomes a timey wimey solution.

 

I liked the hand mines though. I really want new villains, I'm bored of Davros, Daleks, Cybermen, Silurians and the Master. We get it, they are classics in a way but all of time and space should have some more variety in villain of the week.

Edited September 20, 2015 by wayne67

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I wouldn't say that I dislike Missy, and its obvious to tell that MG gets a huge kick out of hamming it up with character portrayal - but sometimes her over-the-top antics do grate on the nerves a bit.

[forum4idiots]

apparently, everyone and their cousin can time travel.....even the snake guy......

 

"oh missy you so fine you so fine you blow mind hey missy".....love it.  and the doctor playing it on the guitar to introduce her...funny.

i hate to admit, that opening scene and the kid saying davros made me yell, "oh snap!"

and the ax guy doing the "cut" sign when the doctor was bombing with his jokes.....nice touch.

[txwatcher]

Yeah, a Dark Doctor Dalek! And Missy is the BEST bad! Clara is Clara the Impossible Girl.

[Commando Cody]

This episode started out pretty well.  The Doctor deciding if he saves a child.  The floating guy searching for him in the bar on Tatooine.  Then suddenly we were back on Earth with Clara and the episode just sinks.  I think Missy is too over the top. I might have liked her if she wasn't The Master.  Also I feel like she was just on an episode and they didn't need to bring her back already.  I thought the throwback to 4 was interesting. 

 

In a nutshell, the beginning and the end were fine. I hated the middle. Even finer point.  I thought the Doctor's scenes were great (Except for the party he threw).  The rest totally sucked.

[cambridgeguy]

 

Moffat couldn't resist a stupid line like Missy saying "I've known the Doctor since he was a little girl."  Hopefully that was the lie.

That had to be the lie unless Moffat is saying the First Doctor really wasn't the first. 

 

I guess Osgood was the real brains behind the Kate Stewart era?  There's no other excuse for ceding control to Clara like that, especially since she would do her best to act like the Doctor and UNIT doesn't always go with that.

[Kalliste]

Isn't Rose in another universe and isn't Donna kind of prohibited from knowing about space time stuff in case her brain explodes from left over time lord memories ? 

Details.. we all know Moffat doesn't care about those so it's possible :D Preferably Donna or River, Rose can stay where she is for all I care :D

[Bruinsfan]

Moffat couldn't resist a stupid line like Missy saying "I've known the Doctor since he was a little girl."  Hopefully that was the lie.

I don't see how it could be anything but, given that we have in-show confirmation that William Hartnell's Doctor was the first version.

 

I did like Missy being the 'closest friend' and not Clara, at least there was that. I would have thought it would have gone to Rose or River and would have loved it if went to the doctors best mate Donna but oh well.

For me it hearkened back to Jon Pertwee's Doctor cheerily announcing that the Master is his best enemy in "The Five Doctors." She really does have more history with the Doctor than anyone else, although it's a fraught relationship.

[Daisy]

I'm another who doesn't like Missy. Why couldn't they have reintroduced The Rani? Missy is too much like when Joanna Lumley played the doctor.

I heard it's because Moffatt doesn't think most people now wouldn 't know who the Rani is. 

 

which, you know. would be His. Job. I didn't know who the Master was (or why he was a big deal until RTD introduced him in season 3). colour me a non-Missy fan either.

[Bruinsfan]

One thing about this whole killing Davros before he invents the Daleks thing, if that were actually an option, wouldn't it have been done long before now? I mean last time I checked, the Daleks had been involved in a universe-wide war with the Time Lords that threatened to wipe out everything, one might think that it would have occurred to one or two of them to erase the Dalek's creator from history and spare themselves some trouble.

[Trichromatic]

Overall, a solid return to Doctor Who. I love Michelle Gomez as Missy  - she's smart and funny in an off-kilter, Joker kind of way. And as a time lord, she thankfully takes away from Clara's special snowflake status which I never really bought into. I hope she's not actually dead, but she's died before so I'm not too worried. Incidentally, I'm sure this will be something I'll have to fanwank, but how did she come back?

[shapeshifter]

One thing about this whole killing Davros before he invents the Daleks thing, if that were actually an option, wouldn't it have been done long before now? I mean last time I checked, the Daleks had been involved in a universe-wide war with the Time Lords that threatened to wipe out everything, one might think that it would have occurred to one or two of them to erase the Dalek's creator from history and spare themselves some trouble.

I really hate to be the one to suggest this, but since I already suggested the killing Davros outcome above (although letting him die isn't quite the same as killing, I guess), I do feel obligated, so, here goes (*cringe*): The Doctor would go back and let young Davros die because otherwise Clara would be killed. But wait (as they say on those horrible commercials) there's more! Since the audience was also given the likening of Clara to a pet pooch, as wayne67 nicely explains...

...I did find it hilarious that Clara was compared to an old couple's dog, she is loved dearly but the couple knows that while the puppy can be taken on walks/adventures she'll die and will probably be replaced quite a few times before the end.

...who would eventually die anyway, perhaps The Doctor just saves her because she is needed for some world saving purpose yet to come in this season. Unless *muttering under breath* she is destined to become an actual Time Lord.

ETA:I heard on WWDTM yesterday that FaceBook is going to roll out a "dislike" button soon. While I think that what they really need is an "I feel your pain" button, and "dislike" is a mistake, if there were a dislike button on the PTV boards and I now had 13 of them for this theory, I would not be offended.

Edited September 20, 2015 by shapeshifter

[benteen]

I wouldn't say that I dislike Missy, and its obvious to tell that MG gets a huge kick out of hamming it up with character portrayal - but sometimes her over-the-top antics do grate on the nerves a bit.

 

Yes, I think that's my issue with Missy.  Michelle Gomez is definitely good but the show tries too hard with her character being wacky.  Felt the same way about the Doctor playing the guitar.  The show is trying too hard.

 

I didn't have an issue with Unit going to Clara.  They couldn't find the Doctor so they went to his companion.  Made sense. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by benteen

[wayne67]

One thing about this whole killing Davros before he invents the Daleks thing, if that were actually an option, wouldn't it have been done long before now? I mean last time I checked, the Daleks had been involved in a universe-wide war with the Time Lords that threatened to wipe out everything, one might think that it would have occurred to one or two of them to erase the Dalek's creator from history and spare themselves some trouble.

 

The Time War was apparently time locked which may mean that despite any attempts to stop the Daleks from existing, they'd still would be waging a war against the Time Lords though honestly I'd be happy if the Daleks were wiped from existence and I didn't have to see a tin pot Dalek ever again. Isn't it amazing how after a while all the Doctor Who villains become neutered from overexposure. After millions of Daleks and cybermen dying I can't really take them seriously as threats to anything.

[Primetimer]

Has the maker of the Daleks met his own maker?

Read the story

[goodbyeglittergirl]

WHAT??!! No, seriously.. What??! The music was so loud and the talking so quiet; I spent the entire hour trying to figure out what they were saying.

 

I'm so glad you said this - I thought maybe I was losing my hearing or was otherwise impaired. I needed closed-captioning!

[tarotx]

Rewatching it now I can see why the UNIT stuff wasn't amusing. Clara was put into her "doctor" play acting again. I'm never super invested in UNIT though and always find them a bit of Doctor puppet so I didn't focus on Clara's role here. I do hate when she gets rewarded like she is the Doctor.

[HauntedBathroom]

I'm another who doesn't like Missy. Why couldn't they have reintroduced The Rani?

Because the Rani has a totally different MO to the Master, and it would make no sense for her to be doing what the Master does here? Isn't it rather sexist to make the defining factor about the character the fact she has tits? 'She's a woman, so she must be this woman we've seen before?' Missy is a far better version of the Master than we've seen for a long time.

[Llywela]

I heard it's because Moffatt doesn't think most people now wouldn 't know who the Rani is. 

 

which, you know. would be His. Job. I didn't know who the Master was (or why he was a big deal until RTD introduced him in season 3). colour me a non-Missy fan either.

Exactly! This is why I sigh and roll my eyes every time I hear the argument 'this or that character/enemy can't be reintroduced because the audience wouldn't know them.' The New Who audience didn't know what Daleks, Cybermen or Silurians were either, until they were reintroduced. They didn't know who Sarah Jane was until they met her. And we've seen plenty of new characters introduced as 'old friends/enemies' of the Doctor despite never having been seen on-screen before. A good storyteller could reintroduce any old character or old monster they wanted, they just have to want to do it.

 

Missy's character would be all wrong for the Rani of course. But it's not exactly a shining example of what the Master could be, either. Neither was Simm, of course. Too much forced wackiness.

 

One thing about this whole killing Davros before he invents the Daleks thing, if that were actually an option, wouldn't it have been done long before now? I mean last time I checked, the Daleks had been involved in a universe-wide war with the Time Lords that threatened to wipe out everything, one might think that it would have occurred to one or two of them to erase the Dalek's creator from history and spare themselves some trouble.

It has occurred to the Time Lords before - trying to prevent the creation of the Daleks was the central plot of Genesis of the Daleks from way back in 1975!

 

I didn't have an issue with Unit going to Clara.  They couldn't find the Doctor so they went to his companion.  Made sense.

I didn't have a problem with UNIT going to Clara. She's the Doctor's current companion and as likely as anyone to be able to get hold of him. I did have a problem with everyone acting as if Clara herself was the solution to all their problems - as if UNIT were completely useless without her, and would have installed her as their leader by now if she didn't prefer teaching, everyone just dithering around looking to Clara to give them ideas and instructions, because obviously only Clara is capable of achieving anything productive in any kind of crisis. Blech. Horrible stuff. She could have been asked for advice and input without making everyone else look like idiots and without acting as if she's the only person who's ever dealt with the Doctor or with aliens before, because she's just the latest in a very long line. I always hate the kind of storytelling that feels compelled to tear one character down in order to prop everyone else up. Clara isn't that special, the show just really, really wants us to think she is - and the more they try to sell it, the less I buy it.

 

Missy is a far better version of the Master than we've seen for a long time.

We're going to have to agree to disagree there. Gomez does a fine job with the material she's given, but the character of the Master has become a caricature of what it once was. Why does the character have to be wacky? Because Simm's version was? That isn't the definitive interpretation! I'd much rather they actually allowed the new regeneration to be different.

 

The saddest moment for me in the entire episode was when that really lovely chap in the teaser got swallowed up by the hand mines. :( He was fantastic, I wanted to keep him! But no. :(

Edited September 20, 2015 by Llywela

[ketose]

I have absolutely no sense of anticipation regarding this show. I only knew the premiere was on about 6 hours beforehand. The promise of the opening carried me most of the way through the episode. Baker already made the "Would you kill Davros?" in Genesis, but that was before the Time War and the fact that the Daleks are basically back. What seems to be happening is a test where Davros is trying to see how far he can push the Doctor before he will kill him. 

 

It's getting tough to watch this show because it's being written for binge watching. Call backs are embedded everywhere. Half the episodes are pointless two-parters. The show is becoming the opposite of classis Who.

[Ripley68]

I've only watched new who, but I can't stand the Daleks. They don't seem all that threatening to me, the Doctor defeats them very easily every time he's gone against them, and I hate their voices!

[truther]

I have absolutely no sense of anticipation regarding this show.

 

It's getting tough to watch this show because it's being written for binge watching. Call backs are embedded everywhere. Half the episodes are pointless two-parters. The show is becoming the opposite of classis Who.

This is sort of how I see it.  There's so much throwaway stuff packed into these new episodes that seem to be there merely because the producers think of them and the budget allows it.

 

The whole Snake Guy subplot, however neat, was also pointless.  He went around a bunch of planets asking for the Doctor and was told to pound sand every time.  You could, and earlier seasons would, have just summarized that in a single sentence uttered by Snake Guy right before Davros told him to look for the Doctor's friends.

 

Likewise the musical guitar stuff.  It was funky and everything, but it could easily have been its own episode.  Actually I would love to see an ep where the Doctor plays guitar for people.  But in this ep it didn't really make sense and didn't add anything.

 

It's like old Star Wars versus new Lucas unlimited budget Star Wars.  In old Star Wars they say things like "the emperor has dissolved the Senate."  In the new films that same line results in a half hour of back and forth flying around and pointless stuff that bores you to tears. 

[alrightokay]

I just realized that this episode has a lot in common with "Listen" from last year, where Clara meets the child-Doctor and inadvertently shapes him into what he is now (and even grabs him by the ankle, the way the hand-mine might grab young Davros' ankle).  In "Listen," Clara was supposed to be seen as a positive influence on the child-Doctor, but here, the Doctor is implied to have had a negative influence on young Davros.  I thought, though, that his "1 in a thousand chance to survive, focus on the 1" speech was actually really inspiring; and the fact that he left young Davros with the sonic screwdriver meant that he didn't leave the child totally helpless.  Also, we didn't see what he actually did after hearing Davros' name--the credits start up right after that.  Maybe I'm just having a hard time seeing the Doctor as someone who would just abandon a child on a battlefield, even if it's Davros.  Clara said in "Listen" that fear doesn't have to make you cruel or cowardly, so I don't see the Doctor acting cruel or cowardly here.  

 

I know the cliffhanger makes it seem like the Doctor goes back to "undo" what he did the first time on the battlefield, but I hope that somewhere in Part 2, we'll see what actually happened the first time, thus putting all of the Doctor/Old Davros' conversations in a new light.

 

(I also wonder if there are any connections to make to "Into the Dalek," where the Doctor sees that he's not that different from the Daleks in his capacity for hatred--"You would have made a good Dalek."--thus causing him to have the very compassion for Davros/the Daleks that Davros is critiquing.  Then again, I'm thinking too hard about this--despite his love of callbacks, Moffat isn't known for keeping his characters consistent!)

Edited September 20, 2015 by alrightokay

[elle]

 

I actually hope they continue to explore- if only in a very playful, off-handed way- the attitudes of Gallifreyans towards gender and identity, through both Missy and the Doctor. It's never really been something that they've been positioned to deal with, or until the recent series, have had a public environment in which to do so. Obviously, that changed somewhat with Ten (and his comments to Rose and Jack Harkness about gender) and Jack Harkness' own polyamorous tendencies- but this is the first time we can really kind of have fun with it from a Gallifreyan perspective.

I hope they do not go do that path, especially with Moffat leading the way.  Star Trek: Next Gen already did this with the Trill and other alien races.  I find myself longing for the days of no romantic entanglements for the Doctor.

 

Was it explained how Davros survived the destruction of the Daleks in "The Journey's End"?

[Llywela]

I am really not a fan of this recurrent 'the Doctor actually helped create the thing that he hates' trope that's been going on for a while now. I am also not a fan of New Who's ongoing theme of the Doctor being no better than the monsters he fights - that one goes way back to the 9th Doctor and his showdown with Blon the Slitheen way back in nu season one; I disliked it then and I dislike it now, because I feel like the show keeps trying to sell this idea as something true, something that has always been true, when it isn't.

 

I see a lot of soundbyte lines from the show getting latched onto by fans as if they are really meaningful - when in fact, if you actually take a step back and think about it, you quickly realise they aren't true at all. Like how we keep being told that the Doctor always destroys the lives of his companions - many New Who fans simply accept this as a universal truth, because it's what we keep being told, when in fact it isn't true at all. It certainly wasn't true in the classic show, and I really don't think it's true of the new show, either. A lot of the reboot companions have had very angsty departures, but I can't think of any whose lives were actually destroyed. They've all gone on to live full and active lives after leaving the Doctor, whether it was quite what they'd originally planned or not.

 

I find the current era of the show increasingly bitty and self-indulgent. A hell of a lot of ideas and concepts get thrown together just because they are cool, with a sense of 'because I can', rather than because it's what the story actually needs or what the character would actually do or say. That's been one of my problems with Clara from the start. So much of what she does and says seems drawn from a checklist of 'what would be really cool for the companion to do/say', rather than coming from Clara as a defined individual. More than any other companion I can remember, she feels like an authorial stand-in, the showrunner's version of wish fulfilment fanfiction. Everything he ever thought would be 'cool' in his ideal companion has been thrown at her, piecemeal.

 

I really, really liked the guy we met right at the start of this story - the soldier with the bow and arrow who was observant enough to notice a frightened child in no man's land and compassionate enough to risk his life trying to save the boy. Should have known he'd end up dead right away.

[Dave in Chicago]

This felt a little tired to me, sadly. How many times has the Doctor debated ethics and interference by this point? "A Town Called Mercy", "Kill the Moon", "Waters of Mars", sort of "Let's Kill Hitler", "Genesis" but also present in things like "Into the Dalek"... Some of those work better than others, but they're all obsessing over the same damn theme. It's like all he can talk about but he still doesn't have an established policy?

I want fresh ideas, not continual doubling back and ret-con.

[Darth Nigel]

And, since no one else mentioned it (meaning either it's painfully obvious or... I can't resist lampshading), did anyone/everyone else catch just what it was that the Doctor was playing on the guitar for his grand entrance?

 I caught a couple of riffs later in the "Doctor On a Guitar" interlude.  But no, I didn't catch the grand entrance music.  Do tell  :)

Edited September 20, 2015 by Darth Nigel

[benteen]

The Doctor's aversion to killing looks worse and worse when he refuses to put an end to Missy, who kills randomly just for the hell of it.  Then he'll go an criticize humanity.

[John Potts]

One thing I did like was Davros' "last day" and how snarky (but still evil) he was. The "Ehh, kids these days... they never listen to their parents!" was darkly hilarious, along with his "Hey, you look like me now!" to the Doctor.

 

shapeshifter I'm hoping that The Dr does kill young Davros so we can be done with the Daleks and their silly Speak N Spell voices once and for all.

 

 

 

That might be interesting (I don't want it, but it would shocking in a good way) but it's about as likely as the Master/Missy and Clara being really dead!

 

futurechemist So many redshirts this episode

 

And while I'm sure Clara & Missy aren't dead, I bet the two Redshirts she killed will stay dead (a scene I liked, because it highlights the attitude The Master has toward "lesser beings")

 

truther  In particular, the ep continued this problematic trend of always getting bigger, and more dramatic, and more sweeping.

 

That's what I meant by "I almost wish they had to make do with the OldWho's budget" - too often it seems like they put in Huge! Impressive! Effects! that are entirely empty rather than trying to tell a compelling story.

 

angora  •Genesis of the Daleks!  Unlimited rice pudding!  I squeed.

 

As somebody who watched every serial from (I think) The Stones of Blood (Tom Baker/Four) onwards, I actually liked Sly's (Seven) occasional comic lines, and that was one of them.

[tankgirl73]

did the "snake" guy just refer to davros as the "dark lord"? haha.

 

Yup. And the moment he first appeared on the screen, my 8yo daughter said "this guy is a lot like Voldemort" -- she meant his voice and the way he moved. She had no idea yet that he was actually made up of snakes! Speaking of which -- very innovative creature.

 

The first time I watched the episode last night, I thought "whoa, the Doctor's going to kill young Davros and then have to deal with the guilt and something will go wrong anyway but whoa."  This morning on rewatch, I instantly thought "whoa -- he's not going to kill young Davros at all!!!  He's there to save him! He's going to exterminate the HAND MINES." And I'm convinced that's what's going to happen. "I'm going to save my friends, THE ONLY WAY I KNOW HOW." We're meant to presume that means 'the only way' is killing Davros. But it really means the only way that the DOCTOR CAN -- and the Doctor can't kill an innocent child, no matter how he knows the kid will turn out. Especially with that speech old-Davros had just given about 'compassion is wrong'. If the Doctor goes back to kill the child, he would be agreeing with that statement. And thus Davros would still 'win'. So he goes back to prove that compassion is RIGHT, that it's always right to save the child, and maybe even hope that this saving will be a positive influence on the man the child will become.

 

(Watching it the second time for me was my daughter's first time. At the end when I had that thought I went "OHHHH I think I know what's going to happen!" She said what, I asked her what she thought. She said "he's gone to kill the boy so he never creates the Dalek." I said "But do you really think the Doctor could kill a child like that?" and she immediately also went "OHHHHHH he's going to exterminate the HANDS!!!"  Smart kid.)

 

I wonder too if there's even more to it than that. I suspect that the Doctor going back again to save Davros is what had always happend. Old-Davros remembers the Doctor coming back to save him by exterminating the hand mines. And that's why Davros concocted this whole thing -- bringing the Doctor to see him, making it look like he killed his friends and destroyed the Tardis, jeering him on about compassion and the time he let the boy live. It was all designed to cause the Doctor to go back and save the boy, which as far as Davros was concerned had already happened that way. Timey wimey.

 

There is a definite time jump that happens after the 'destruction' scene and the Doctor's re-arrival on old Skaro -- where did he get the Dalek weapon? How did he travel there? So something has happened in the meantime that we haven't been shown yet. Someone above commented that we didn't actually see the Doctor abandon the boy, but in fact we do see it -- I also wonder if it's the fact that he abandoned him, failed to show compassion, which is causing him to feel shame, rather than the shame of NOT killing him when he had a chance.

 

And yet, I also can't help but wonder if this is all orchestrated by the Doctor, rather than by Davros. The point that perhaps the Doctor sent the will-thing to Missy was so that she would be there on Skaro is an intriguing one -- and thus all his protests against them coming along are false. "I think you've been lying" said Clara, and possibly even more than we've been let on to. His histrionics at their impending doom were grossly out of character -- getting down on his knees and begging??? Looks to me like he's just playing up what Davros said about his weakness being his friends. The vortex manipulators were clearly Chekhov guns. The Tardis would not be destroyed that easily (aside: Missy's comment about never believe a man about his vehicle made me guffaw). And Missy predictably turns and tries to get the Daleks on her side -- Doctor is begging "Missy no" and Clara does... nothing? Again, it seems like an act. Missy was supposedly on this adventure in order to save her friend, would she really turn on him like that? Well, honestly, maybe. She's crazy like that. That's what makes it tricky to parse. But if it is all a convincing act, then it gives Davros the illusion of being in control. But what's the Doctor's end game if this is the case? That, I don't know yet.

 

Who made Davros -- the Doctor (in the first visit) did tell him "choose to survive." That's certainly what Davros has done, his entire too-long life. He refuses to die, because the Doctor told him to choose to survive.

 

The guitar scene was indeed silly and self-indulgent -- and that was the point. The Doctor was 'making noise' and that would actually play into the theory of it all being a setup by him. Fun note: anachronism has its root words ana "backwards" and chronos "time".  The Doctor himself is LITERALLY an anachronism, even without the guitar. I found the guitar bit still a bit eye-roll-worthy, even though I understood that it was supposed to be out of character for 12 (he explained it as "all of me is invited" which I thought was lovely) -- but my 8yo daughter LOVED that scene. So I won't object to it. :)

 

BTW the first song he was playing was clearly a variation of the theme music (cheesy). The second song, though, when he saw Missy and Clara, was NOT "Oh Missy you're so fine" -- it was Pretty Woman (Roy Orbison). Which of them was he directing that too, I wonder?  ;)  There was an intriguing use of 'dialogue' via music through the episode though, when you do also add in the "Missy you so fine" bit (originally Mickey, of course).

 

Was annoyed at super-Clara solving all of Unit's problems. But she did get that computer upgrade all those years ago, and she did exist inside the Doctor's timeline, so I can accept her having unusual knowledge and abilities. Her teaching is terrible, though. Jane Austen was a good kisser? Huh? And making up hashtags -- #planeshavestopped... first of all that looks like plane shaves topped. Second of all, no way would that be the hashtag. It's too grammatically complete lol... And why was Unit calling the school? Doesn't she have a special burner phone from them? Way to blow your cover.

 

Finally, my clever and often-mentioned 8yo daughter said today that the Doctor and Missy should get married and have lots of little Gallifreyan babies. That's how they'll repopulate the Timelords after them having been destroyed by the Time War (or wherever they are now). Since the Master now has the appropriate reproductive organs, it's a theoretical possibility -- the last man and woman of their kind, it's almost their duty.

[Occasional Hope]

Apparently viewing figures were down quite a bit - backlash from last season?

[alrightokay]

Someone above commented that we didn't actually see the Doctor abandon the boy, but in fact we do see it -- I also wonder if it's the fact that he abandoned him, failed to show compassion, which is causing him to feel shame, rather than the shame of NOT killing him when he had a chance.

 

 

That was me--yes, in the middle of the episode, the Doctor remembers back to abandoning the child, but I wonder if that's all a misdirect, to make us think he left.  I'm with you on the theory that the Doctor is lying all throughout this episode, putting on an act that Clara and Missy are both aware of.

[tankgirl73]

I gotcha. Yes, it's still a possibility, that there's another scene in there on Skaro that we haven't been shown yet.  But the boy is shouting 'you can't just leave me here', and there's the matter of the screwdriver that got left behind, so it is pretty convincing.

 

[Llywela]

there's the matter of the screwdriver that got left behind, so it is pretty convincing.

I'd forgotten the screwdriver. Presenting it to the Doctor made for nice visual impact, but seriously - everything Davros has been through over the centuries, there's no way he'd have managed to hang onto that!

 

Also, if he'd had the sonic screwdriver all those years, he'd have recognised the 4th Doctor's for what it was when it was confiscated that time...

 

Prequels are always on dicey ground, continuity-wise. There's just no way to cover every base!

[tankgirl73]

Yes, good point about the question of Davros having the screwdriver all those years. And also, frankly, just about him never mentioning the fact that he'd "met" the Doctor, and the Tardis, all those years ago. Presumably, we're to understand that he had forgotten, and only recently remembered. Perhaps he found the screwdriver in a place he'd buried/hidden/stashed some childhood items a million years ago, that he'd been going through as a reminiscence in his 'dying days' (I wonder if he actually is dying or if that's part of a ruse too), found it, put 2 and 2 together, remembered this event he'd long forgotten, and started his search for the doctor...

[doesntworkonwood]

I have mixed feelings about the episode. 

 

On one hand, the basic storyline feels quite intelligent. I love Davros, and I love the Daleks (when they're actually scary and not just there for the lols), so a storyline about twelve going back in time to potentially kill Davros is really interesting. Unfortunately, I don't think the execution was successful (as with pretty much everything Moffat writes). 

 

I agree with everyone who said that the episode felt mostly like filler. It was just cool stuff for the sake of being cool, and any plot that should have been there just... wasn't. 

 

And Clara. Every time she comes on screen my enjoyment of the episode dampens a bit. 

 

And to add to the opinions of Missy. I'm not her biggest fan, but mostly because she seems kind of like a slightly more wackier verson of River Song. Her personality basically fits into every other 'strong woman' Moffat has ever wrote so as much as I like Michelle Gomez, I feel like I've seen the character in so many other iterations before.