S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, mommalib said:

I think it all goes back to what I been talking about, sympathy for a black man is like pulling teeth lol.

Yes. And that we should have all the sympathy in the world for Kevin because he’s white and attractive. Kevin is treated with kid gloves because his emotional well being should be of the most importance.  

But Randall should just be GRATEFUL for a loving family of origin, a loving wife and healthy kids (while not complaining or having problems) because that’s more than he should be able to expect from life. 
 

I see what you’re saying. 

[mommalib]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. And that we should have all the sympathy in the world for Kevin because he’s white and attractive. Kevin is treated with kid gloves because his emotional well being should be of the most importance  

But Randall should just be GRATEFUL for a loving family of origin, a loving wife and healthy kids (while not complaining or having problems) because that’s more than he should be able to expect from life. 

I find interesting that some people can find all the sympathy and the world for Kevin's perspective all the while having none for Randall's. It's just to hell with Randall because he hurt poor Kevin but never mind that Kevin hurt him as well.

Edited March 25, 2020 by mommalib

[Scarlett45]

Just now, mommalib said:

I find interesting that some people can find all the sympathy and the world for Kevin's perspective all the while having none for Randall's. 

I am more disappointed in Randall than anything. I expected more from him because I know he’s capable of more, and he has been such a good son to see him behave this way hurts me! I’m more hurt by what he’s done to his mother than Kevin (for a variety of reasons). 
 

I think more people can identify with a Kevin type person than a Randall type person (and I don’t just mean race), the dutiful can often be self righteous, but they are doing the tasks no one else wants to do and would resent having to do if the self righteous dutiful family member wasn’t there. And I’ve seen in all sorts of families that when it comes to caretaking work isn’t split evenly- usually it’s one person doing 90% of the work (and maybe getting a thank you) until something REALLY bad happens and then everyone has an opinion!!! But they weren’t there day to day. 
 

Good thing about being in the “taking care of your parent” thing alone is no one else is going to butt their noses in. So I can identify with Randall thinking he knows best. 
 

I have to say the writing on this show is VERY GOOD. 

[mommalib]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I am more disappointed in Randall than anything. I expected more from him because I know he’s capable of more, and he has been such a good son to see him behave this way hurts me! I’m more hurt by what he’s done to his mother than Kevin (for a variety of reasons). 
 

I think more people can identify with a Kevin type person than a Randall type person (and I don’t just mean race), the dutiful can often be self righteous, but they are doing the tasks no one else wants to do and would resent having to do if the self righteous dutiful family member wasn’t there. And I’ve seen in all sorts of families that when it comes to caretaking work isn’t split evenly- usually it’s one person doing 90% of the work (and maybe getting a thank you) until something REALLY bad happens and then everyone has an opinion!!! But they weren’t there day to day. 
 

Good thing about being in the “taking care of your parent” thing alone is no one else is going to butt their noses in. So I can identify with Randall thinking he knows best. 
 

I have to say the writing on this show is VERY GOOD. 

The writing and the acting. I'm not so much disappointed in Randall than I am in the direction the writers decided to take him in and it leaves me wondering why. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by mommalib

[Empress1]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. And that we should have all the sympathy in the world for Kevin because he’s white and attractive. Kevin is treated with kid gloves because his emotional well being should be of the most importance.  

But Randall should just be GRATEFUL for a loving family of origin, a loving wife and healthy kids (while not complaining or having problems) because that’s more than he should be able to expect from life. 
 

I see what you’re saying. 

 

Just now, mommalib said:

I find interesting that some people can find all the sympathy and the world for Kevin's perspective all the while having none for Randall's. 

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of unconscious bias at work here. It reminds me of how people constantly questioned how Randall, a successful trader, could afford his lifestyle, and rarely questioned how Kevin could afford his (though to be fair, people also question how Kate and Toby live). (For the record, I don’t think there’s anything unrealistic about either of their lifestyles. Traders make serious money and Randall was excellent at it. He made a lot of money. His Alpine house was worth a lot of money because all Alpine houses are worth a lot of money. Philly city council members make low six figures, so they’re still not poor. The Manny is syndicated so Kevin is still making money off it. Kevin has fucked up his career a few different times but good-looking white men tend to fail upward.)

I think saying “I wish you were never in this family” is horrible. If a parent says that to a child, “I wish we didn’t have you,” we’d rightfully call it abusive.

Madison, meh. I knew she’d have a bigger role because she’s the show runner’s wife. I generally think she’s best deployed in small doses, so we’ll see. 
 

That billboard totally looked like an ad for Kevin’s nipple.

[CarpeFelis]

2 hours ago, mommalib said:

Sterling K can do it all but I think it's the writers that made you hate Randall.

Obviously the writers made all this up, but he really brings all the nuances.

[mommalib]

1 minute ago, CarpeFelis said:

Obviously the writers made all this up, but he really brings all the nuances.

Agreed, I think he may be one of the best actors of his generation. I wonder what it would be like if a movie career took off for him.

[After7Only]

12 hours ago, Bulldog said:

I have to strongly disagree with this.  Randall lorded everything from his grades to his favored child status over Kevin throughout their childhood. 

I personally don't think being proud of your grades and accomplishments as lording over Kevin (or Kate).  They all (Kate included) teased Kevin about his slacker-ish ways.  

But this is why this show and particularly this scene touched so many.   People see the relationships differently based on their personal life lens.  None of those perspectives are necessarily wrong.

[Runningwild]

13 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

But it's not Randall's fault, because you cannot blame a baby for being abandoned, and then adopted.  So the comment was directed at the wrong person.  He shouldn't be taking that shit to Randall.  He should be seeing a therapist.  His anger is misplaced and fucked up.

I actually liked Miguel, but admittedly he didn't really do anything.  Maybe that's what I liked.

No. His anger is toward Randall for all the hateful things Randall said. And for the dismissive way Randall treats everyone. Randall always thinks he’s the smartest person in the room. And everyone’s savior. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Runningwild

[Empress1]

29 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

Obviously the writers made all this up, but he really brings all the nuances.

He’s a joy to watch even when Randall gets on my nerves. I first became aware of him in The People vs OJ Simpson and I’m so glad this show has given him a bigger platform.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Empress1

[deirdra]

27 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

Obviously the writers made all this up, but he really brings all the nuances.

Like his portrayal of a hip Lit Professor last week.

[buttersister]

Quote

Why are they making Randall now the least likable of the 3?

There's a part of me that wonders if Sterling was looking for a challenge after reaping the awards for playing dear Randall. He's unafraid to show Randall doing ugly things, he knows his character enough to understand why it's happening (played to not show that). And there may be a redemption arc planned. Just a theory. I'm a fan.

[blondiec0332]

49 minutes ago, mommalib said:

I think it all goes back to what I been talking about, sympathy for a black man is like pulling teeth lol.

I can assure you any lack of sympathy I have for Randall has nothing to do with him being a black man.   When and if he acknowledges his issues is he going to want understanding and compassion?  Because it doesn't seem like he had any understanding and compassion for Kevin's issues one of which was an addiction.  As has been mentioned several times already Kevin has recognized his problems and attempted to deal with them and move forward. Randall isn't doing that.  I freely admit I do not like Randall and haven't liked  him for the past two seasons.  He is getting worse and Beth while I understand wants to support her husband needs to not let him get away with things that are  harmful to everyone else.

[Scarlett45]

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

First of all that is a creepy thing for Kevin to say.   Second, it turns Madison into nothing more than a baby maker, like Kevin doesn't care about Madison at all.

I don’t think it’s creepy. He doesn’t love Madison. He barely knows her!! How can she be his great love? No she isn’t “just a baby maker” but he doesn’t love her. He will love his kids as he should. Your kid is always your child no matter what- you may or may not love the person that also contributed biologically contributed to the child. You may both love the child best but just like/respect each other. 
 

That was very mature on his part. 

[Ohiopirate02]

I am disappointed with this season overall.  What is the point of the "Big Three" if Kate is always an afterthought.  What did Kate do this season besides learn how to parent a blind child and have some easily fixed marriage problems? Oh wait, I'm sorry, I forgot about her walks with Gregory.  And the writers decide to give her another child, keeping her in the wife-mother box.  It screams "we don't know how to write for you so we will give you a kid.  We still don't know how to write for you so we are going to give you another kid."  I hate that the writers made sure Kate was not around for when Kevin realized what Randall had done.  We know Kate is speaking to Kevin in August 2020, but what actually is her opinon on this mess?  I don't trust the show to give us that next season.  

 

 

[Sharonana]

Okay I may be pulling this one way out of left field, but has anyone else thought that maybe Madison's doctor is Dr. K's son? When Jack and Rebecca visited Dr. K with the triplets, he did say that his wife got pregnant again. Just a thought, or else I'm crazy. 🤷‍♀️ 🤪

[milner]

I am not against Randall for his interactions with Kevin even though early on we saw kevin rushing out of an opening night to take care of a distraught Randall. I really dislike the way he made decisions regarding Rebecca without consulting her husband. How he confronted her at the Gala to introduce idea. The way he guilted her into his decision with his “you owe me speech”. Then lied and had a frail Rebecca lie to the other two about how it was her idea. I know he has anxiety but I’m unconvinced that excuses his behaviour in this case. It is this issue that has turned me against him.  On a completely different topic things must be ok financially for Randall if they can afford to fly a family of five across the country for a one year olds birthday. 

[gameshowjunkie]

2 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I hadn't really thought about it but now that you mention it, it made me think of something like the Petfinder website. Ick.

Yes exactly!

My local news show used to have a segment called "Thursday's Child" where they featured kids available for fostering or adoptions and it always made me feel squicky.

[blondiec0332]

5 minutes ago, milner said:

Then lied and had a frail Rebecca lie to the other two about how it was her idea.

That is one thing that cannot be overlooked.  Randall knows he did wrong and didn't want to deal with the consequences of that.  If he feels so strongly he did the right thing then he needs to be able to defend it.

 

5 minutes ago, milner said:

I know he has anxiety but I’m unconvinced that excuses his behaviour in this case.

His anxiety might explain his behavior but yes it in no way excuses it.

Edited March 25, 2020 by blondiec0332

[Bringonthedrama]

1 hour ago, mommalib said:

So let me get this strait a black adopted child who was raised by a white family and already has issues of feeling out of place and different or feeling like the "other" deserved to have his brother tell him that he basically wished he never existed? Really? As if Kevin didn't make that clear enough to Randall when they were growing up with his nasty behavior. So Randall deserved it but oh poor Kevin though? Please

He didn't say he wished Randall never existed; the line was about mom and dad bringing Randall home. From what we've seen, Randall has had nothing but contempt/no use for Kevin for decades - except for the times when Kevin went running to his rescue when he was having a panic attack/meltdown. Randall has only ever cared about his own happiness and needs, his mother's needs, William, and of course Beth and the girls.  Kevin knows that Randall has issues about being an adopted kid, and that it wouldn't occur to Randall to feel bad that Kevin had bee neglected as a kid, so  his reaction was to hurt Randall after Randall totally trashed him as a person and said their dead father had been ashamed of him. 

I don't feel sorry for Randall because he's had decades to get therapy and deal with his issues, instead of putting Beth and his daughters and the rest of his family through a lot because he's so emotionally unhealthy....actually, I feel bad for both Kevin and Randall that Rebecca has not really, truly owned up to and apologized to just the two of them privately that the way she and Jack parented them is largely responsible for creating the ugly dynamic between them.

[CarpeFelis]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I would have liked to see more of Beth's reaction to what Randall had done with Rebecca.  She clearly didn't seem on board with his plan, and seemingly knew there was going to be a blow up over it.  

I'm not sure how I feel about Kate and Toby adopting.  I feel like they are barely over all the issues which surrounded Jack's birth and his first year.  I also really hated Toby's framing of the situation making it seem as though a new sibling was something Jack needed, and that Jack would somehow be hurt if Kate didn't go along with it.  I'll just say this: You should not adopt a child based on the idea that your child needs a sibling.  You should adopt a child if you feel you are up to taking care of another child and that is what you want.          

I’d like to be a fly on the wall when Beth has a come-to-Jesus discussion with Randall about what he’s done.

I find it hilariously ironic that Toby and Kate think Jack “needs” a sibling given the enmity going on between Kate’s brothers.

[kili]

Quote

So far as we know, he never even referred to Randall as his brother until they were 36.

Randall, like all the characters, is an unreliable narrator. We do know that Kevin has referred to Randall as his brother prior to them being 36. He introduced Randall to his acting coach as his brother in "New York, New York". 

I have a feeling that paintings for sale in Hailey's gallery are by Kevin's son. They kept talking focusing on the paintings (rather than the sculptures) and I'm probably projecting, but the last name of the signature (visible behind her co-worker when he has pencils shoved up his nose - hitting on a co-worker and sticking pencils up his nose in a professional environment - how does he still have a job in 2040?) is Pearson.  Kevin has painting in his backstory (Hailey refers to the artist as a him, so it isn't either Randall's or Kevin's daughter). 

 

[txhorns79]

9 minutes ago, Sharonana said:

Okay I may be pulling this one way out of left field, but has anyone else thought that maybe Madison's doctor is Dr. K's son?

You aren't the only one who had that thought.  I hope that isn't the case, if only because it is really schmaltzy.

 

51 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Kevin has fucked up his career a few different times but good-looking white men tend to fail upward.

In fairness to Kevin, if his only acting attribute was that he was good looking, his career would be over by now.  Good looking actors are a dime a dozen, and the CW can only support so many shows.  

And while I understand that having Kate present would have taken away from the ending between Kevin and Randall, I would have liked to have seen how Randall dealt with his betrayal of Kate, since they don't have the history that Kevin and Randall do.   

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Eureka said:

This is all assuming she even gets into the trial. You don’t just decide to be in a trial. You have to qualify and I think your doctor has to recommend you. They shouldn’t be moving to St. Louis until they knew she got into the trial, but of course it’s tv land so it doesn’t work that way.

Wouldn't that just be a bitch, if Randall burned all his bridges with his mother and siblings and it turned out she didn't even qualify?

I'm kinda down for that scenario.

[chabelisaywow]

Quote

And Randall saying Jack died ashamed of Kevin wasn't blackhearted?

Did I miss something? Did Randall mean something specific? Or he meant ashamed in general?

[abc123baby]

13 hours ago, voiceover said:

Who the fuck does research for this show?? 

Hey TiU writers!   Obviously there was no one in the room from the Midwest.  So please keep this in mind for next season:

There is no such thing as "St Louis Barbecue".

No. Such. Thing.

You're welcome.

what?  there absolutely is. 

[Lady Iris]

Was that Rebecca in the hospital bed? Were those Kevin’s twins he talked to by that hospital bed? What were they 10-11 maybe? Kevin’s aged that much? 
 

I literally flinched when Kevin and Randall eviscerated each other. Why, why would Randall say that Jack was ashamed of him? Was he? I never caught a whiff of that. And Kevin throwing the “I would’ve saved him” line...yikes. That was a rough scene. 

[4N6MAL]

15 hours ago, Bulldog said:

I can't imagine what connection Madison's doctor's daughter has to the rest of the show.  There better be one are that was a total waste of time. 

I think it was to have him repeat to Madison what she said about the horse. She hasn't let him show himself or show what he can be yet. I don't know if it will go beyond that.

[Scarlett45]

Just now, Lady Iris said:

Why, why would Randall say that Jack was ashamed of him? Was he?

The day of the fire, Kevin said some very mean things to Jack and Rebecca about how he was destined for greatest and not mediocre lives like them, and he made rude disrespectful comments about Jack being in AA. He then ran off to hang with Sophie. Jack was upset (because Kevin’s words were hurtful and disrespectful) and left a note on his door “Kevin you owe us an apology.”, which Kevin never got to read because the house burned down. 
 

That was the last thing Kevin ever said to his Dad. That’s what Randall was referencing. 

[Blakeston]

36 minutes ago, kili said:

Randall, like all the characters, is an unreliable narrator. We do know that Kevin has referred to Randall as his brother prior to them being 36. He introduced Randall to his acting coach as his brother in "New York, New York". 

Randall is definitely an unreliable narrator. But in season one, when he pointed out that Kevin had never acknowledged him as his brother before, Kevin looked ashamed and expressed contrition. It appeared to be the first time Kevin truly realized how badly he'd treated Randall.

So I think the writers wanted us to think that Randall was in the right about Kevin never acknowledging him as a sibling.

My guess is that when they wrote the New York episode, they'd forgotten about that plot point. Just like they keep forgetting that "Kyle" was a name that Rebecca and Jack chose for Randall, not for the dead triplet.

[Bringonthedrama]

49 minutes ago, blondiec0332 said:

I can assure you any lack of sympathy I have for Randall has nothing to do with him being a black man.   When and if he acknowledges his issues is he going to want understanding and compassion?  Because it doesn't seem like he had any understanding and compassion for Kevin's issues one of which was an addiction.  As has been mentioned several times already Kevin has recognized his problems and attempted to deal with them and move forward. Randall isn't doing that.  I freely admit I do not like Randall and haven't liked  him for the past two seasons.  He is getting worse and Beth while I understand wants to support her husband needs to not let him get away with things that are  harmful to everyone else.

THIS. Randall previously showed contempt for Kevin as a person when they were all in a therapy session, I think when Kevin was taking steps to get sober. Hey Randall, your sainted father Jack also had a problem with addiction/alcoholism. Does that mean your Dad was also part loser? No, it means Jack had a problem and needed to address it. Kevin has been addressing his problem. Randall ignores/blows off people who encourage him to address his problems. I get that Randall learned a mindset from Jack, but he knows that mindset hasn't been working for him, and if he's as great a father and husband as he thinks he is he would want to address his issues seriously before Beth essentially had to tell him she can't count on him as a partner because she has to tip toe around all the issues. If Randall was some poor, uneducated guy who didn't have access to mental health care and nobody ever told him his issues were a problem, I would be sympathetic. Unfortunately, Randall's issues and need for control combined with his arrogance/denial have made his personality ugly when he's with Rebecca and Miguel and his siblings, and sometimes when he's with colleagues too.

[nixgirl28]

5 hours ago, debraran said:

Well, the last hug in Rebecca's room with Nicky showed a ring, a TIU clue. ; )  I feel Kevin aged a lot from 40-50. I feel most of my friends, it was noticeable more 50-60, but they had to make him seem older than he was with Madison finding out.  Was the last scene with Rebecca really only 10 years later? The kids weren't that old, they weren't preteen it seemed. Watching it again, this young man seems younger, but older actors always play younger on TV so his real age is not too pertinent.

Loved Beth too, I wish she was a little more forward in saying he was wrong, but I don't think it would have mattered. I also wish Miguel had words and Rebecca didn't blame him in her lie. They almost kissed when they were ignoring Kate and Toby, I wish TIU would grow up in that area and just have them show how close they are. Having Kate say they were ignoring them was nice though.

I still hope for Sophie but I'll let it go if need be. Kevin was brushing Madison off and although this is TV, not many men love the woman who got pregnant and had their baby or have a life with the mom, so time will tell. He did say fiance though. Maybe she really is pregnant and Fogleman wanted to write it in.

 

I had twins and I know no Dr K would have me toss my baby who died aside and take home another, not then,maybe later, but definitely not then. I always thought the missing Kyle was the worst part of the show. No momento, grave or picture. No mention of him. He was born, she delivered him, saw him I hope, just so sad.

I so agree. I had a stillborn daughter and it would've been strongly discouraged for us to go home with an abandoned baby right away, likely impossible. I get it, she was already taking home two babies where that wasn't the case for me or many similar situations, but still she lost one of her babies, he can't be replaced. I feel like Rebecca didn't get much of a choice though, Jack pretty much said, "we're adopting him", because taking an abandoned baby home would have never crossed my grieving mind. Probably why her over-compensation turned to favoritism.

Also, they would've had to bury him or have him cremated, something, they had to at least have had that. But of course, tv, it's not realistic.

[AzraeltheCat]

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Add me to the list of people who like Madison.  I thought she was the best option from this year for the baby momma.  I don't know if she is who he ends up married to, but I would like to see them build a real relationship. I'm a sucker for unlooked for love.  In either case, I don't want it to be Sophie.  There is WAAAAAY too much water under that bridge. 

Yes to this! I would love for Madison and Kevin to slowly and unexpectedly fall in love. If not, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let his wife  be somebody new. I HATE Sophie and Cassidy.  And as someone else pointed out, they both had spouses [and Cassidy had a child] - just let them be. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by AzraeltheCat

[saber5055]

My conclusion #1: Randall continues to be a dick.

My conclusion #2: Beth rocks.

My problem with this episode #1: Kate and Toby throw a big birthday party for Little Jack, people come from all over the country, then K and T take baby, walk out and leave everyone without even saying "Bye, thanks for coming and bringing presents. Lock up when you leave."

Problem #2: Madison comes to the family gathering/birthday party to dump her pregnancy news on Kevin, something that should be done privately? Alrighty then.

Problem #3: Everyone eats, then leaves Rebecca to do the dishes? WTH people!

Question: So blind baby Jack ends up being able to see just fine in the future? Maybe a dying Kate willed him her corneas ... That could be a good episode.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, mommalib said:

I have to say I'm disappointed with the road the writers have taken Randall down. I still find him to be a fascinating and interesting character but when I think back to how he started out in season 1 as a devoted husband, father and son who was kind of a dorky nice guy with some emotional issues and then to look at him now as somebody who is almost defined by his flaws and imperfections. As a black male I see very few leading black male characters who are just strait up good guys, the leading black male characters are more likely to resemble Lucious  Lyon or Ghost St Patrick. You know anti-heroes or villain's That's why I like shows like God Friended Me and SWAT because black male leading characters like Miles and Hondo are good guys who aren't perfect(because nobody is) but they don't drown in those flaws and imperfections and that's refreshing to me. The writers had a chance to do that with Randall and it seems they started out that way but took a turn somewhere.

You're a male, Mommalib?

Your examples show us that there are actually leading black male characters who are good as well as the bad ones, just as there are leading white male characters from Andy Taylor to Hannibal Lector.  I can remember a time when TV seemed afraid to show leading black characters in any light other than the perfect, "Magical Negro" stereotype and that can become patronizing and limiting.  It can't be all, "In the Heat of the Night,"  -- my father's favorite show.

  I think Randall is a fascinating character and although all his faults have been blazing this year, the writers have shown that he has started therapy and we can expect to see rewards from that next year.  I think Sterling K. Brown  is so lucky to have such a nuanced character to play.  When he was on the phone begging Rebecca to do the trial I was marveling at the pain in the actor's  face even as I was screaming, "No," at the character.

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

My conclusion #1: Randall continues to be a dick.

My conclusion #2: Beth rocks.

My problem with this episode #1: Kate and Toby throw a big birthday party for Little Jack, people come from all over the country, then K and T take baby, walk out and leave everyone without even saying "Bye, thanks for coming and bringing presents. Lock up when you leave."

Problem #2: Madison comes to the family gathering/birthday party to dump her pregnancy news on Kevin, something that should be done privately? Alrighty then.

Problem #3: Everyone eats, then leaves Rebecca to do the dishes? WTH people!

Question: So blind baby Jack ends up being able to see just fine in the future? Maybe a dying Kate willed him her corneas ... That could be a good episode.

I do think Kate and Toby's trip could have been done before the party even if it was a special day for them.  I think they may have scheduled it for the afternoon because they wanted someone, anyone to ask them what was so important that they had to leave.  Everyone blew them off about this when you could see them wanting to tell.  

Jack is blind and is played by an legally blind actor in the future.  

[Higgins]

2 hours ago, mommalib said:

I also find it funny that people are talking about how they hate Randall but also seem to either not mention or forget that Randall has a case of high anxiety an actual medical issue that he's dealing with. I bet if Kevin had a case of anxiety it would be poor Kevin.

What do you think addiction is? It's self medicating anxiety.

[JudyObscure]

28 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

The day of the fire, Kevin said some very mean things to Jack and Rebecca about how he was destined for greatest and not mediocre lives like them, and he made rude disrespectful comments about Jack being in AA. He then ran off to hang with Sophie. Jack was upset (because Kevin’s words were hurtful and disrespectful) and left a note on his door “Kevin you owe us an apology.”, which Kevin never got to read because the house burned down. 
 

That was the last thing Kevin ever said to his Dad. That’s what Randall was referencing. 

Thank you!  I knew he left a note for Kevin but I was thinking it was something nice to smooth over the fight.  So if Randal read it he might think his father died a little miffed at Kevin but I wouldn't call that ashamed.  Hmmm.

[ShortyMac]

I like how Randall and fam can just fly across the country at the drop of a hat. Does Randall work anymore?

[thesupremediva1]

1 hour ago, mommalib said:

The writing and the acting. I'm not so much disappointed in Randall than I am in the direction the writers decided to take him in and it leaves me wondering why. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid. 

On this point we can agree. Randall was my favorite of the Big 3, up until about a month ago. The writers took this sharp left turn with his character, and I no longer sympathize or identify with him. I'm actually kind of afraid of him. It's less about the argument with Kevin (as bad as it was) and more about how he manipulated his mom.

I am puzzled as to why the writers went this route with him. They've made some choices that seem too far for the character. The Randall I knew and loved for three seasons would NOT have done that to his mother. But now that these choices have been made, I fear they have done irreparable damage to the character. 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

Thank you!  I knew he left a note for Kevin but I was thinking it was something nice to smooth over the fight.  So if Randal read it he might think his father died a little miffed at Kevin but I wouldn't call that ashamed.  Hmmm.

No I don’t think Jack was ashamed. I think he was hurt and disappointed that his child was being such a pompous JERK.
Jack and Rebecca were in a great place when he died, Randall & Kate were very supportive of his journey in AA, Kevin was going through his own shit over his busted knee and lashed out to the people who loved him most. Kevin has guilt about that. 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Randall is definitely an unreliable narrator. But in season one, when he pointed out that Kevin had never acknowledged him as his brother before, Kevin looked ashamed and expressed contrition. It appeared to be the first time Kevin truly realized how badly he'd treated Randall.

So I think the writers wanted us to think that Randall was in the right about Kevin never acknowledging him as a sibling.

My guess is that when they wrote the New York episode, they'd forgotten about that plot point. Just like they keep forgetting that "Kyle" was a name that Rebecca and Jack chose for Randall, not for the dead triplet.

Something can be inaccurate and, yet, true enough to make someone ashamed of their behavior.  I never thought it was likely that it was literally true that Kevin never acknowledged his brother to others, less so with each each successive episode.  The only time we really saw Kevin failing to acknowledge his brother was at school when they were 8 or 9. It was shitty.  But they were kids.

Kevin and Randall have a fraught history, but they have also shown repeatedly that they love each other.  There is no way, even if we hadn't directly seen Kevin introduce Randall as his brother on screen, that I would have bought that he literally never called him his brother in 36 years.

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Kevin has always resented the shit out of Randall, and not just because he was the favored child. Kevin felt entitled to be the star of a "normal" family, and couldn't stand that Randall was better than him at a lot of things, like schoolwork and being responsible. 

I strongly disagree with this take.  We've been shown that Kevin's need for attention (good or bad) stems from his feelings of being an afterthought to his parents who each had a favored child who wasn't him.  Who knows if the same would have been true if Kyle had lived and, for whatever reason - disability or personality - had also been favored.  But Kevin's extroversion has never presented to me as rooted in "entitlement." It's compensation.  

Granted, he was frequently a dick about it even into adulthood.  But casting him as a person who felt he had some right to being the star of a "normal" family seems unfair and not supported by what we've seen on screen.

57 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Your examples show us that there are actually leading black male characters who are good as well as the bad ones, just as there are leading white male characters from Andy Taylor to Hannibal Lector.  I can remember a time when TV seemed afraid to show leading black characters in any light other than the perfect, "Magical Negro" stereotype and that can become patronizing and limiting.  It can't be all, "In the Heat of the Night,"  -- my father's favorite show.

Yes. There are examples.  I agree, however, that when you are an underrepresented group, it magnifies the effect of each example.

That said, I agree with you that the "Magical Negro" trope was, itself, problematic which is why I like Randall so much. He was fully established as a good person.  Then they added layers that made him complex and more grey (like people tend to be).  He has been a HUGE dick for the last two seasons, but I don't think he's been totally destroyed.  He has reasons.  And I'm glad they've shown some of the ways Jack's attitudes about dealing with emotions and heaping pressure on a 4 year old lead to an exacerbation of Randall's issues.

I may be alone in this, or at least at a relatively small table in the room.  But I continue to like and have empathy for Randall even while vehemently disagreeing with many of his choices.  Granted, I wasn't as enamored of him in Season 1 as many people.  He showed his selfishness from jump with bringing William home without so much as a conversation.  So maybe it didn't feel as much like a heel-turn to me.

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by RachelKM

[A.Ham]

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I am somewhat afraid of horses - my definition of them since I was a kid is "large animal that can step on you" (though "kick" could also replace "step on" now that I am older)

It most definitely can. I speak from personal experience--I got my comeuppance after being warned not to run past a horse that was quietly grazing along the road on my way to school. I was about 7 years old. That thing knocked. me. out. 

Topic? Both brothers said some pretty hurtful things that are fairly unforgivable. No, Kevin, you never say that to an adopted sibling, no matter how hurt you feel. I still find it tougher empathize with Randall because he manipulated and took advantage of his sick mother. Not cool in my eyes. I also think that if things were opposite, and Kevin was manipulating Rebecca behind the scenes against her will, and still being an ass about it, he would be more in the wrong in my eyes.

[kili]

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The Randall I knew and loved for three seasons would NOT have done that to his mother.

In Season 1, William had to pretty much trick Randall into letting him die. William planned the trip to Memphis because he wanted to die there. While there, he fell ill and Randall took him to the hospital. The doctors let him know that William was about to die and Randall wanted to make plans to take him on an airplane and talked about getting him into a study for an experimental treatment. The doctor had to be very firm with him that William only had hours to live.  Randall only gave in to William's death because there was no choice.

Randall had already guilted William into living with them and trying more procedures.  I think we clearly saw the DNA for what Randall did to his mother in Season 1.  He needs to fix things and he thinks if he works at it hard enough, he will. But he can't. He think he can cure his mother, so he will not take no for an answer and he feels justified in forcing her to do it because he knows best.

[MissLucas]

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I may be alone in this, or at least at a relatively small table in the room.  But I continue to like and have empathy for Randall even while vehemently disagreeing with many of his choices.  Granted, I wasn't as enamored of him in Season 1 as many people.  He showed his selfishness from jump with bringing William home without so much as a conversation.  So maybe it didn't feel as much like a heel-turn to me.

 

Yes, it's not such an abrupt turn as some claim. There have been instances of selfishness since season one. It started with him bringing William home without talking to Beth, then came his decision to foster despite Beth's reluctance, then he decided to buy the building where William had lived and then he ran for office and moved the whole family. Every time he got what he wanted (and bullied others into accepting his decisions) so it's not that surprising that he now can't deal with Rebecca's 'wrong' decision and resorts to bully tactics to get what he considers right. From the flash-forward this seems to be the one time where it's not working. 

[cardigirl]

Let's not forget that at the time of the fire Kevin's football dreams had been dashed by an injury, and the love of football was something that brought the family together. Kate was introduced early on as still watching Sunday football with her father's ashes, and the Terrible Towel is a 'famous' article of Jack's clothing. Football was HUGE in this family, and was a way for Kevin to feel special and important to his father. That was how Kevin got his dad's attention. The fact that he could play well and was being scouted for colleges gave him some security in his place in the family. He lost all of that his senior year.  Right before he lost his dad in the fire.  Double whammy. He had no idea what he was supposed to do to regain that sense of worth, and at a crucial time, he lost the one person who he probably trusted to help him find his way. 

The other two siblings lost Jack too.  And suffered for it.  But Randall seems to have suffered the least in traditional terms of success, as he has a wife and children and two successful careers, although I think we've been shown just how insecure he feels about it all at the moment. Once he started losing some of that foundation of being Mom's rock, once she started moving towards Kevin and Kate, he began to spin. 

I'm looking forward to next season. I really hope they continue to show all 3 Pearson siblings learning and realizing important lessons.  As of now, though, I really hope Rebecca tells someone how Randall blackmailed her. 🙂 I wanna see that go down.  

[PRgal]

To people who aren’t a fan of Hailey’s name:  that could have been the name her birthmom gave her and Toby and Kate are respecting her wishes.  Especially if she was adopted as an older child.  
 

 

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, Bringonthedrama said:

He didn't say he wished Randall never existed; the line was about mom and dad bringing Randall home. From what we've seen, Randall has had nothing but contempt/no use for Kevin for decades - except for the times when Kevin went running to his rescue when he was having a panic attack/meltdown. Randall has only ever cared about his own happiness and needs, his mother's needs, William, and of course Beth and the girls.  Kevin knows that Randall has issues about being an adopted kid, and that it wouldn't occur to Randall to feel bad that Kevin had bee neglected as a kid, so  his reaction was to hurt Randall after Randall totally trashed him as a person and said their dead father had been ashamed of him. 

I don't feel sorry for Randall because he's had decades to get therapy and deal with his issues, instead of putting Beth and his daughters and the rest of his family through a lot because he's so emotionally unhealthy....actually, I feel bad for both Kevin and Randall that Rebecca has not really, truly owned up to and apologized to just the two of them privately that the way she and Jack parented them is largely responsible for creating the ugly dynamic between them.

When you say that you wish that Randall was never brought home that means you basically wish that he didn't exist or that he wasn't apart of the family.  Which is the worst thing that was said during that argument.

[ShadowFacts]

22 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

That said, I agree with you that the "Magical Negro" trope was, itself, problematic which is why I like Randall so much. He was fully established as a good person.  Then they added layers that made him complex and more grey (like people tend to be).  He has been a HUGE dick for the last two seasons, but I don't think he's been totally destroyed.  He has reasons.  And I'm glad they've shown some of the ways Jack's attitudes about dealing with emotions and heaping pressure on a 4 year old lead to an exacerbation of Randall's issues.

I may be alone in this, or at least at a relatively small table in the room.  But I continue to like and have empathy for Randall even while vehemently disagreeing with many of his choices.  Granted, I wasn't as enamored of him in Season 1 as many people.  He showed his selfishness from jump with bringing William home without so much as a conversation.  So maybe it didn't feel as much like a heel-turn to me.

I'm at your table, but I think the writing has gone too far in making Randall unlikable.  Unnecessarily.  To listen to lots of the comments here, he's not a good son and a terrible person all around.  What he has just done to Rebecca by guilting her is indefensible.  Trying to still be the person who knows what's best for his mother, not healthy, not rooted in reality.  But he did look after her for years while the other two were busy with their own lives.  He wasn't martyring himself, he managed to meet his wonderful life partner, marry and have a family, based his successful career in NY/NJ while Rebecca lived apparently in Pittsburgh, eventually remarrying. These things are not high crimes.  He loved his mother and it morphed in an unhealthy way, and he saw from his first couple therapy sessions that his problem is with his mother.  He hasn't acted on that appropriately yet, but I hope the writers get there sooner than later. 

Kevin got the reverse treatment, he was selfish, blew up his TV star gig because he hated it (Randall got him where he lived on the acting critique, and more recently Kevin himself said he does not like acting) cheated on his wife who was his childhood love, screwed it up again in the second go round, and did not seem to have spent much time with his mother over the years.  In the last year or so, he has cleaned up his act significantly, is capable of caring about others, and wants to apparently make up for some lost time with mom.  All good, but probably another case of the writing going too far.  They have made Randall too bad and Kevin too good.  I hope the conflict between the brothers is kept away from Rebecca who by their birthday not that far away has seemed to have significant decline.  She needs to be protected from the ugly shit. 

[nilyank]

6 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Let's not forget that at the time of the fire Kevin's football dreams had been dashed by an injury, and the love of football was something that brought the family together. Kate was introduced early on as still watching Sunday football with her father's ashes, and the Terrible Towel is a 'famous' article of Jack's clothing. Football was HUGE in this family, and was a way for Kevin to feel special and important to his father. That was how Kevin got his dad's attention. The fact that he could play well and was being scouted for colleges gave him some security in his place in the family. He lost all of that his senior year.  Right before he lost his dad in the fire.  Double whammy. He had no idea what he was supposed to do to regain that sense of worth, and at a crucial time, he lost the one person who he probably trusted to help him find his way. 

Kevin turned to acting when he lost his dreams of football, college and maybe a career as a player. He was a so-so student who didn't have Randall's intelligence or Kate's musical abilities. 

His acting was something that was never as valued in comparison to his siblings or when he played football despite his gaining success over the last ten years.

And with all the ugly, shitty things said between the brothers, this was just another way to put down the one thing that Kevin has really worked hard for and he is still be insulted for going after that dream. Why are Kevin's dreams any less deserving than that of his siblings.

Edited March 26, 2020 by nilyank