S04.E13: Whenever You're Ready

[JessDVD]

I don't particularly care for the conceptual choice of ending the show with, heaven is a big party and when you get bored, you can go home. (It's like when my kids ask how long we're going to stay at something and I say, until we're not having fun anymore. It worked great until the time when we were at someone's house and it got to the point where it was socially necessary to leave, like they had invited us for lunch and it was getting close to dinner, so we announced we were leaving and the kids all loudly protested, but we're still having fun! Whoops)

Anyway, but I could deal with that being the ending, if maybe we could have explored that concept for a few episodes instead of basically one episode with a long epilogue. Instead we had the never ending tale of Brent that went nowhere, and sped through this part, which actually could have been interesting. 

I find it disappointing that the show of twists and turns, 800 reboots in one episode and now off to a new unexpected thing, did basically exactly what I would have predicted. They introduced the door option, the characters all went though it. No twists, no nothing. Michael becoming a human was sweet but not a huge surprise either.

If I remove the death and afterlife implications from the show (which is dumb, because that's the whole point), it is a nice ending. Everyone from the series comes back, everyone gets their resolutions, everyone reconciles, it's great. I thought during Donkey Doug's speech that it would be interesting to have your funeral before you did, so you can hear all the (hopefully) nice things your family and friends would say about you. I like the idea of a celebration of life send-off.

All in all, my mixed feelings on the ending notwithstanding, watching this show has been a forking amazing experience, and that my phone's swipe/autocorrect still won't recognize forking as a word despite my daily use of it, is clearly evidence that we're in the Bad Place. It's been a great ride, y'all. Thanks for sharing in it.

[chaifan]

I would love to see a series of mini episodes, you tube videos or webisodes, on Tahani crossing off her to-do list.  Mostly because I want to see what Tahani would wear while painting a room or resurfacing her driveway.  (Can someone please post a screenshot of that list?)  Also, webisodes of Chidi doing book reviews of "garbage" books would be fabulous.  Or the Judge reviewing podcasts.  I know none of this is going to happen, but it would be fun to keep the ride going just a little longer.  Wean us off gradually.  Cold turkey sucks. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mikem said:

I found parts of the finale very moving, but the message that you eventually just decide you're bored and decide to disintegrate didn't seem to fit in with all but the last few episodes.  I think the show undercut its own message by having Tahani decide to continue because she found a new purpose in life (so to speak).  I found it hard to believe that Chidi, in particular, wouldn't have similar feelings and be able to find a purpose.  Jason, sure, but Chidi? 

I don't like the whole idea that living in The Good Place is all about what gives you pleasure, rather than what gives you purpose. 

I didn’t see it as choosing to move on out of boredom. It was presented as being completely at peace with your current existence and choosing to move on the whatever comes next. I understand why some people don’t like the idea but to me it’s a beautiful concept. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Guest

[Mibbitmaker]

I'm one who thinks of complete death as scary as hell, and adding "peaceful" to that feels like it would be confining, getting old faster than forever in the GP ever would. And having it all be a  mystery just adds to the fear. But, having grappled with that for the last 2 GPs, I do feel better that Eleanor (and, presumably the rest) had a form of continued existence, even one eerily similar to MST3K's last Comedy Central episode with the characters as lights of "pure energy".  Similarly, I liked Tahani's decision.  Michael... it would've made more sense for him to be born on earth, though that would've torpedoed that last scene, I suppose.

[Tetraneutron]

Also apparently now you can choose what age you’ll be in the afterlife? Only Doug Forcett took advantage of that though.  I thought his jokes were the funniest and probably truest parts of the episode. If you spend your whole life desperately following the rules so you can have your reward, when you get to heaven you’ll want to party. 
 

I also feel like a lot of people would take the Tahani option. Eternal happiness WOULD get boring, but suicide is nihilism. Just get a nice middle class office job. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Chidi giving ethics lectures to the randos who wrote the books on ethics

2 of them were the philosophers who advised the writers of the show.

[bros402]

That was an amazing finale.

[Fake Jan Brady]

Good grief, I am completely dehydrated,

 

 

[SmithW6079]

I found the ending very nihilistic. Ultimately, everything is meaningless, because at the end, we choose suicide and end our existence. The Good Place is the afterlife; there is nothing after that.

[Kiddvideo]

Was everyone (eventually) getting into The Good Place now? I know Pillboi had shown growth last time we saw him working in the nursing home, but they’d given up on Donkey Doug.

Liked the ATM and decor in Jason’s Stupid Nick’s house. I hadn’t thought about the inside actually being a restaurant! And I was hoping we’d get one last “Foles!” as Jason ran through the door. Guess he’s too evolved for that, but I liked that he got to dance with his crew.

Welcome, OG Doug Forcett!

I don’t like the door storyline. I watch tv for laughs not this. Michael’s and Mindy’s resolutions were the only ones I liked.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

2 of them were the philosophers who advised the writers of the show.

I loved that. It’s clear from the podcasts that they played a huge part in shaping the show and it was great seeing them in the show. 

1 hour ago, BobH said:

Most unexpected thing was that they took us through the final door, and it leads back to Earth, where apparently you become the spark of inspiration for others to "do something good", the voice in the back of their head.  So Eleanor became a good deed that helped Michael Realman.

I loved that as a callback to Eleanor’s “little voice” that guided her. It really highlighted her journey from the Arizona trash bag who ignored the voice telling her to return the wallet she found, to the girl who listened to that voice and finally as the voice inspiring someone else to do something good. 

[Tetraneutron]

9 minutes ago, Kiddvideo said:

Was everyone (eventually) getting into The Good Place now? I know Pillboi had shown growth last time we saw him working in the nursing home, but they’d given up on Donkey Doug.

That's what Michael said a few episodes ago. Everyone on earth gets tested and it takes as many tries as they need until they've learned enough to go to the Good Place, then once they're in the Good Place they do whatever they want until they're ready to go through the door. And since time is meaningless we all hang out with our loved ones once we get to the Good Place. That's why Tahani's sister, for example, got in before her parents. Her parents needed more work. We only saw a bit of the tests, with Brent not understanding why telling women to smile is gross. 

They were also doing the backlog of deaths in batches, apparently, with Roberto Clemente and Zora Neale Hurston and the other ones being mentioned in the meting we saw. 

[tennisgurl]

I guess I was wrong last week when I guessed that there would be more to fixing the good place or another twist, but I guess that really was it. Just give people the option to end it all and everything will be better for them. Maybe hire a guy in a suite carrying a noose to wander around behind you all day, and when you get stressed or upset, look behind you, wave at the noose guy, who will wave it around, and know that you have the option to end your life if you want to, and that will make you feel better?* 

There were many things that I absolutely adored about this episode, and many things that I need to think on more, and some things that I just wasnt a fan of. I loved seeing so many of the guest characters come back, having made it into the Good Place. I love that Tahani became an architect and that Michael became a human. I loved many aspects of the shows main thesis, that people need each other, that one good deed can change an entire life or even the entire world, that people make mistakes and do stupid things but that is just a part of lifes journey and that you can still grow and change and become better. There were, as always, endless funny one liners and background bits and call backs. Tons of great character bits, like Jason sort of accidentally truly becoming a monk. No matter what my feelings about how things ultimately ended turn out to be, this has been a truly remarkable show and I am so happy that I got to watch it. 

One of the big issues I have with the solution to the GP problem (choosing to end your existence) is that the solution and the problem seem to be unrelated. The problem with the GP seemed to be that it was just an endless party (plus nobody new was coming to shake things up) where no one ever had to work for anything or strive to better themselves because they got everything handed to them instantly and never had anything new to work on or to challenge them or reflect on. The solution seems to be giving the people of the GP more challenges and have new things for them to try to achieve, to challenge them, to give them a chance to help other people and become better themselves, like what Team Coachroach has been doing this whole time. Just saying that knowing that there is an end to existence seems so simple and lacking in twists or complications, and yeah you want to get the show over and done with and give everyone closure so its hard to find time for that, but it all just seems so quick and simple in ways that this show so often isnt. The show is about how complicated and messy existence is, so making the fix so easy just seems wrong.

*That brings me to my other problem. I dont hate the idea of people becoming a spark of goodness that can spark a person to do a good deed, which leads to another good deed, and that leads to their lives changing and becoming better, and thats their afterlife. I can kind of see the appeal of that, even if its not my idea of what I hope the afterlife is like. I always wanted the afterlife to be a lot grander than "its like your life, but nicer and more convenient" but I digress. My bigger problem is that, for me, this show has always been a metaphor for life itself, and the twists and turns that we take on our journeys and how we grow and change and influence the people around us and the influence they have on us. This ending, where our heroes (except for Tahani and Michael) all choose to end their existences, cant stop feeling like a "sometimes suicide is for the best" ending, if you continue to look at this show as a metaphor for life. I am so over life, where is my noose guy?! Its just such a sad ending, and no matter how many times the show says how great and painless it is to walk through the death door, and how you just feel right going into it, its still and ending where most of our cast end their lives because they are just done with existence, which is a pretty bleak ending for any show, let alone a comedy. Of course, this all might be me and my own issues (and struggles with depression that we dont need to get into right now) but while I definitely cried during this episode, some of them were more of a happy/bittersweet nature, some were just plain sad.

I am, however, happy that Jeff the Doorman got so many frogs. Jeff's a frog guy. 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by tennisgurl

[DrScottie]

1 hour ago, mikem said:

I found it hard to believe that Chidi, in particular, wouldn't have similar feelings and be able to find a purpose.  Jason, sure, but Chidi? 

I don't like the whole idea that living in The Good Place is all about what gives you pleasure, rather than what gives you purpose. 

That is the existential question right there. 

I don't see why it can't be both. After all, Tahani decided she wanted to become an Architect and had begun that process. My original guess for the ending was going to be all of them becoming Architects tasked with ushering humans into the Good Place, but Tahani was the only one who opted for that path. 

 

[GaT]

I haven't really been feeling this last season, but I loved the finale. The wave speech & watching Kristen tear up just made me tear up too, & I just stayed teary from then on.

[Guest]

I loved Shawn being sincere but sounding evil and finally falling back on one last “shut up, Glenn”. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Guest

[Blue Plastic]

I didn't really like this ending.  My biggest problem is probably that it was so rushed.  We spent so many episodes on the gang trying to improve the afterlife points system and prove that they deserved a chance to get into TGP themselves, but then when they finally do get there we find out there's a problem we get only 2 episodes to resolve it.  So that means it takes 2 episodes for them to solve the problem in The Good Place, hang out there for many Bearimies, become "content," and "move on" except for Tahani and Michael.  So we see all of the struggle but almost none of the reward, and then they basically ditch the reward right away in show time, even though it's supposed to be thousands of Bearimies or whatever.

Eleanor and Chidi worked so hard to stay out of hell and remain together and then this happens?

What's the appeal of being little golden sparkles that float around and influence the living to do good?  I mean that's nice and all, but there's only so much you can do on your downtime when you are little golden lights.  That's not depressing?

I am probably just not in a mood to think about the solemn truths about life that this show brought up in the last episode, but it just didn't do anything for me.

I was also sad that the gang would of course not be together anymore and that when Michael dies and makes it to TGP, Eleanor won't be there.

[Tetraneutron]

24 minutes ago, Blue Plastic said:

I was also sad that the gang would of course not be together anymore and that when Michael dies and makes it to TGP, Eleanor won't be there.

Sure she will. Bearimy time isn't linear. 

[Harvey]

When they walk through the door out of the Good Place, they become the inspiration for the good things people do on Earth. Therefore, Michael's system will make humanity exponentially better with every soul that goes through the door.

At this rate, Earth will eventually become The Good Place.

Heaven on Earth.

[scrb]

Essentially, the after life wasn’t all that.

All but Tahini wanted it to end, even if some of them were deeply in love, they wanted out of living forever.  

They all wanted to become fireflies, including Michael, who wanted to become mortal.

The judge will have run out of all the TV shows worth watching.

[Dowel Jones]

5 hours ago, AuxArx said:

Was the guy at the end, with the mail and the little light following him, anybody?

To be honest, I first thought it was Mike Schur with a fake beard.  That would have been so fitting.

When Nick Offerman says that you are a master woodworker, that's it.  Put a line through that  goal.

Maybe Brent was right, although he didn't deserve it.  The Good Place is where you are rewarded for a good life and passing the tests, but The Best Place is through the redwood arch.  I think you don't cease to exist, you just become part of the universe.  What could be better?

Chidi, that is how you express your feelings.  Would that I could be so eloquent.  I wish this episode had been a month earlier.

I had to laugh when Seth Myers made note of the fact that a few of them actually did go to Europe last fall to shoot those scenes, and D'Arcy was miming "keep quiet, keep quiet", but all in fun.

When Michael met up with Shawn and Vicky, etc., my heart sunk, for I thought that the entire Good Place was another setup.  Whew!

I want that Jeremy Bearimy clock.

[fireice13]

I’m someone who believes that things have meaning because there is an end, so I am happy with how this all wrapped up.

We all start out as atoms that then form to become a human. Walking through the door is just letting our atoms go back to being part of the universe. 
 

It also made me think about people I love who suffer from severe depression. They wake up every day and think “f*** I’m still here.” Existence itself is painful for them (and this is with meds and treatment). So the idea that they could peacefully end their existence and therefore end their pain and anguish is comforting to me.

[pennben]

As expected, the show landed the finale but did not explain the afterlife to everyone’s satisfaction. 

Bravo to this show!  Well done. 

Perhaps we can all meet millions of Jeremy Bearimys in the future and debate the philosophical inaccuracies and who was right and who was wrong about what the show presented and what we all believed way back when.....

 

 

[wknt3]

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

At this rate, Earth will eventually become The Good Place.

That would certainly be a nice change of pace...

[pootlus]

Well, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.  The execution and the acting and writing was top notch, but I still didn't like the ending.

Just going to pretend that last week was the finale, with Eleanor and Chidi admiring the sunset.

[Harvey]

They should have given a conclusion to Janet's character arc but they never did. Will she become a nebulous cloud like Derek one day?

[Schweedie]

For me, this was perfect. As an atheist I struggle with the idea of an afterlife and have always felt the idea of an eternity is uncomfortable. When I'm done, I want to be done, and I love that our cockroaches got to be done when they felt ready. It wasn't out of boredom, they were /ready/. Chidi's explanation of when he'd first felt it, with his mom kissing Eleanor goodbye and Eleanor's mom rubbing the lipstick off her cheek, man, the tears were flowing over here. (I'm getting teary-eyed again just typing it, dammit.)

A thing I would've liked to see were the tests the other people related to our bunch went through. Like, I wish we could've seen how Tahani's parents learned how badly they'd treated their daughters.

I still feel we wasted too much time on the test subjects in the first half of the season and we could've had a few more episodes that felt less rushed before the finale, but to me, they landed the ending.

[Wanda]

I wonder if the system works to ensure everyone makes it to the good place or if there are still some people so corrupt they cannot be rehabilitated and the bad place, with chain saw bears included, still is in business. It certainly feels like there are but Shawn is no longer evil so who is running any bad place?

 

 

and Elinor mentioned her mother multiple times but never her father. Is he still trying to get into the good place or what?

[ClareWalks]

Did anyone else have a hard time sleeping last night after? I woke up at 12:30 and couldn't get back to sleep for hours. That finale has stuck with me. It was so poignant. I didn't cry until Chidi's wave speech but now I might want someone to recite that verbatim at my (hopefully long in the future) funeral.

[Chaos Theory]

Janet didn’t really need a finale and she did get one the second time with Jason and again with Eleanor. She experiences time differently then humans do plus like Tahani she still has a purpose and always will.   Shepherding people through the door.   Plus she has Michael to wait on 
 

 

 

This is definitely going on my list of shows I want to binge from pilot to finale 

I haven’t enjoyed a finale this much since The Americans and Big Bang Theory.   What I liked is that all three shows avoided last minute gotcha moments and remained true to the dna of the show., 

 

Edited to add:   Did we see Brett in the afterlife?  I missed him.   The other two made an appearance but I don’t remember seeing Brett.

Further edit:  out of everything I think my favorite moment was Eleanor and the Judge when The  judge Said that the group had saved the afterlife but it was their tone.    

Edited January 31, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[VanillaBeanne]

I watched from the very first episode so I’m a fan but not a big one since the Good Place isn’t even my first or second favorite show that currently airs on Thursday nights.  
 

That said, I really liked the finale.  Wasn’t excited after last weeks episode about possibly watching them each go through the door but it was done in such a beautiful and thoughtful way.  Each main character had a ending that perfectly completed their life story.  And we got a lot of stray loose ends about the show tied up too.  
 

My favorite part was Brent trying to explain that he was only being helpful when he told a woman to smile if she actually looked prettier smiling. A lot of people though Brent’s white male privileged ass of a character was over the top last season but that scene was just pitch perfect.  
 

I’m sorry to see this show go.  

Edited January 31, 2020 by VanillaBeanne

[Eyes High]

The ending seemed like a strong endorsement of suicide. And as for the “oh it’s not about suicide, the door is a metaphor for human mortality” argument, the comparison falls apart because most of us don’t die by choice or wish to die by choice. Most of us will be dragged from existence kicking and screaming.

3 hours ago, fireice13 said:

I’m someone who believes that things have meaning because there is an end, so I am happy with how this all wrapped up.

We all start out as atoms that then form to become a human. Walking through the door is just letting our atoms go back to being part of the universe. 
 

It also made me think about people I love who suffer from severe depression. They wake up every day and think “f*** I’m still here.” Existence itself is painful for them (and this is with meds and treatment). So the idea that they could peacefully end their existence and therefore end their pain and anguish is comforting to me.

The idea that they’ll embrace suicide as a solution is comforting to you? That is extremely fucked up.

And frankly, what worries me about the show’s rosy depiction of suicide is that mentally fragile people will watch the finale and think that suicide is a lovely, beautiful thing. I mean, yes, theoretically, all of us on Earth can go “whenever we’re ready” (a much nicer way of putting it than dying by suicide) but it’s downright nihilistic to suggest that that’s a choice to feel good about and to actively embrace. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Eyes High

[pennben]

I truly don’t understand the comparison to suicide. Maybe it’s an age thing, or a having watched someone dying and as they gasp their last breaths telling them “it’s okay to go” thing, but comparing spending time in utter joy and then, while totally at peace, feeling at one with the universe and choosing to open that door.....that’s not at all what I think suicide is as we know it. These folks weren’t escaping anything. 

[Eyes High]

24 minutes ago, pennben said:

I truly don’t understand the comparison to suicide. Maybe it’s an age thing, or a having watched someone dying and as they gasp their last breaths telling them “it’s okay to go” thing, but comparing spending time in utter joy and then, while totally at peace, feeling at one with the universe and choosing to open that door.....that’s not at all what I think suicide is as we know it. These folks weren’t escaping anything. 

They’re not choosing in your example, though. They’re dying for certain of illness or a fatal injury, and they have a choice whether or not to struggle to resist it. The difference is between someone who’s drowning in a well with no way out and stops struggling to put an end to their agony, and someone who decides to end it all and jump into a well to drown. No one was forcing Jason, Chidi or Eleanor to go through the door. They weren’t terminally ill. If they wanted to hang around for all eternity, no one would have stopped them.

So yes, the comparison to suicide absolutely holds, and I found it not only nihilistic but shockingly irresponsible. If the show were stripped of the metaphysical trappings and concluded with several of the main characters deciding to blow their brains out because life was too boring and they’d had enough, there would be an enormous outcry, but instead everyone seems to be sobbing about how beautiful, lovely and moving suicide is. It’s bullshit. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Eyes High

[pennben]

Well, that would be a completely different show.  

[Eyes High]

5 minutes ago, pennben said:

Well, that would be a completely different show.  

But the door with Janet is just a lovely, beautified, sanitized gloss on a very ugly, nasty and nihilistic idea. If the method for ending their existence wasn’t walking through a door but Janet lovingly handing them a special metaphysical gun, a special metaphysical noose or special metaphysical sleeping pills, I doubt people would be moaning and weeping over the magnificent beauty of the affair, but the end result would be the same and at least guns or sleeping pills would be more intellectually honest.

Most people who have lost someone they cared about to suicide cried buckets, but they weren’t crying about how lovely and gorgeous it was, I can tell you that.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Eyes High

[pennben]

Exactly. That’s why I don’t think suicide is the right comparison  

We took different things from the show, that’s okay.  

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by pennben

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 1/24/2020 at 6:08 AM, Harvey said:

I'm gonna miss these ultra vague episode descriptions that basically give nothing away.

Then you would definitely like the episode descriptions for The Magicians. Some examples:

Penny licks an egg; Alice gets jealous of a flower.

Quentin yells at a plant. Margo stares at a fish.

[Whimsy]

 

10 hours ago, AuxArx said:

I was waiting for our local celebrity Mary Steenburgen to show up, and there she was.

Was the guy at the end, with the mail and the little light following him, anybody?  

I'm pretty sure that was kurt braunohler, although he's not credited with being on the finale (yet, at least)

 

6 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

I didn't really like this ending.  My biggest problem is probably that it was so rushed.  We spent so many episodes on the gang trying to improve the afterlife points system and prove that they deserved a chance to get into TGP themselves, but then when they finally do get there we find out there's a problem we get only 2 episodes to resolve it.  So that means it takes 2 episodes for them to solve the problem in The Good Place, hang out there for many Bearimies, become "content," and "move on" except for Tahani and Michael.  So we see all of the struggle but almost none of the reward, and then they basically ditch the reward right away in show time, even though it's supposed to be thousands of Bearimies or whatever.

Eleanor and Chidi worked so hard to stay out of hell and remain together and then this happens?

What's the appeal of being little golden sparkles that float around and influence the living to do good?  I mean that's nice and all, but there's only so much you can do on your downtime when you are little golden lights.  That's not depressing?

I am probably just not in a mood to think about the solemn truths about life that this show brought up in the last episode, but it just didn't do anything for me.

I was also sad that the gang would of course not be together anymore and that when Michael dies and makes it to TGP, Eleanor won't be there.

I agree.  This felt really rushed to me.  Re: the bolded- I haven't read any interviews so I could be totally off-base, but I didn't think they just continually floated around for eternity.  I thought their essence (or whatever) floated to earth, inspired an act of kindness and then that was it.  Poof.  Gone.  Which, also as an atheist, I am ok with.  

[Helena Dax]

I think the door is the opposite to suicide. It means you are in peace: as a human, you've reached your peak, the human Nirvana. Time to become one with the universe. 

I saw a reference to a short story called The Immortal, by Borges. I loved it when I read it, back in the day. It's about a guy who is looking for a race of immortal humans. He thinks they will be wise and admirable, but when he finds them, they turn out to be like lazy beasts. Because everything they could learn or do, they could do it in the future. Without time, there is no purpose, no meaning.

Anyway, I loved the episode. Didn't cry, but it was sweet. I'm glad we saw different paths and so many old friends. I'm going to miss this show a lot. Its humanity and optimism are amazing.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Helena Dax
Grammar

[Wanda]

They’re already dead. They’ve been dead for eons of infinite time. Thousands of bearimies passed according to the cards. It’s not comparable to a sudden suicide that devastates the loved ones left behind to pick up the pieces. Everyone in the good place knows and has the same option when they feel they’ve reached a point in their existence in the universe when they are ready to move to the next phase, whatever it may be. These are humans at stasis. There is nothing left to move towards and they are at peace with it. That is as far from a suicide comparison as it is possible to be. 

[Ray Adverb]

I found it all kind of schmaltzy and sappy.  I also didn't like that they used the "Bearimy" units to refer to time.  It stripped the show of all sense of how long they were actually there.  1000 years?  10 million years?

Why were Tahani and her sister so surprised at the way their parents acted?  The entire point of the test is that it is soul purification and the people will be drastically different than their time on Earth.  Hitler, for example, could come out loving Jews.

[Wanda]

5 minutes ago, Ray Adverb said:

I found it all kind of schmaltzy and sappy.  I also didn't like that they used the "Bearimy" units to refer to time.  It stripped the show of all sense of how long they were actually there.  1000 years?  10 million years?

Why were Tahani and her sister so surprised at the way their parents acted?  The entire point of the test is that it is soul purification and the people will be drastically different than their time on Earth.  Hitler, for example, could come out loving Jews.

I think that was the whole point of using bearimies....that we weren’t to know how long they were there. That it was an infinite time before they were “ready”. If put into years it takes away the otherworldliness of the afterlife.

 

and just because you know something logically doesn’t mean you won’t be surprised when you see it put before your eyes. 

[mikem]

 

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

This ending, where our heroes (except for Tahani and Michael) all choose to end their existences, cant stop this from feeling like a "sometimes suicide is for the best" ending, if you continue to look at this show as a metaphor for life.

Except for some very specific circumstances, suicide is NOT for the best, and I found this part of the finale to be very troubling.  There were too many analogies to real-life aspects of suicide, and the show seems to glamorize and justify suicide.

Suicide doesn't have to be sudden or out of despair.  There was a play a while back where the main character announces to her mother that she's going to kill herself this evening because her life isn't the way she hoped it would be, it doesn't look like it's going to get better, and so, why keep going?  In the play, the woman is very calm and at peace about her decision, which she's carefully considered.  Of course, her mother is devastated and tries desperately to talk her out of it.

This episode, particularly the part where Chidi tells Eleanor that he knows he's hurting the people he's leaving behind, but he's just not happy with his existence anymore, was very reminiscent of that play for me, and there's a clear metaphor for Chidi committing suicide there IMO. 

The part where Jason has a big party before he ceases to exist is something that is done by some people who commit suicide. 

I was really bothered by Jason calling out, "Hey, wait up, Chidi!" before rushing through the door that Chidi had just gone through.  Jason seemed to be literally calling out to Chidi (I don't give Jason credit for knowingly calling out like that to a non-existent Chidi metaphorically), and he didn't seem to understand that Chidi was no longer there to hear him.  So Jason seemed to be ceasing existence without a full understanding of what that meant.  Jason is wise in many ways, but naive in many ways.  Sometimes, you hear about a child or young teen committing suicide, and you wonder whether that kid really understood what he or she did.  When Jason called out to Chidi, I was half-expecting Janet to stop him and say, "You know Chidi's not there anymore, right?  Do you understand that?"

From reading an interview with Mike Schur, I don't think he considered the suicide analogies, but they are there and troubling.

Edited January 31, 2020 by mikem

[luna1122]

I'm fascinated, reading all these interpretations of the finale, and I find myself agreeing with EVERYone, which is weird and dichotomous. I completely understand the suicide comparisons, and yet also the explanations that it's not at all that.

I was too emotional to even process this last nite, and frankly, I still am. There are tears streaming down my face as I write this, as my honey and I tried to discuss it this am, and I don't really quite understand them myself, they seem to have a life of their own. Clearly, they're about more than just a tv show, no matter how fine a one it is; clearly, I'm crying about life and death too, but I mostly feel okay about the concepts of life and death. I don't grapple with questions about an afterlife or religious concepts, I'm an agnostic-leaning-hard-toward-atheism (I probably really AM a full on atheist, but I have commitment issues), I think when we die, we die, and I've always been fine with that. Life is rich, and generally pretty long, and I never felt compelled to feel we needed more after that (which is a statement to my privilege, probably: tho my life is far from perfect or fulfilled in so many ways, I've always been loved and happy, for the most part.).

I grew up, tho, in a religion that taught of an apocalyptic Armageddon, which, if you made it thru, you'd find yourself forever on a paradise on earth. I never actually believed it, but I loved fantasizing about that, about forever to read all the books I wanted to read, and play with lions and tigers and bears who would let me cuddle and pet them, about taking a hundred years to learn a different language, another hundred to learn piano, glassblowing, pottery, whatever. And the Good Place's eternity was even better, cuz unlike the moralistic forever preached by former religion, they could have movies and books and tv shows that wouldn't be allowed in that paradise. They had talking dogs. They could 'fly' to Paris or Greece or anywhere their heart desired at a second's notice. I honestly can't conceive of growing bored or unsatisfied with that, and there was still so much to learn and do and grow. Tho of course, I have no concept of how long forever really is, because none of us do.

So the idea that they'd want to leave all that is not something I can understand, and even more...they left people they loved. People they were happy with, who loved them, who fought for them. And for...what? For nothingness. For ceasing to exist. In the end, at least for me, it seemed that Chidi just did not love Eleanor enough to stay. And that's heartbreaking. And like most anyone who has been told they their loved one is leaving them, Eleanor tried desperately to get him to NOT go, but you can't make someone who's already gone in their heart stay.

And the idea that Jason, the most inherently youthful and joyful one of the gang, just decided he was done...that did not ring true at all for me.

Nor did them not having ANY fear about walking thru the door. Not one of them knew what was coming, tho I assume they assumed NOTHING was coming, but they didn't know. The Good and Bad places all had lots of twists and surprises, and there could have been something truly terrible thru that door. So them doing it so...blithely...I can't wrap my brain around it.

Ultimately, for me, only Tahani got a good ending, because she kept seeking purpose and knowledge and adventure. I'm not an ambitious person at all, I'm lazy and introverted and a comfort/pleasure seeker, I wouldn't likely be trying to rule the good place or wherever, but I do think I'd just keep wanting...to exist. To have new experiences. Tho I guess the point was they'd done just about everything and there wasn't much left to learn or do. I don't know.

I'm probably not really deep enough for all of this.

I also got  the sense that the little twinkly firefly/star thing that Eleanor, and presumably all of them, became was just a one time deal. So she gave up living to get Michael a piece of junk mail? Not satisfying for me.

Ugh, I don't know. I really don't. I found it all poignant, and I laughed and cried, and I loved a lot of it, but I found it just too fucking sad, overall. I don't think that was intended, but there it is.

 

[mammaM]

Michael Realman!!

I'm not crying, you're crying! That's how to do a finale 

The wave goes back to the ocean💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗

[AuxArx]

Jason’s a pretty good dancer.  Has that talent been shown before?

What did the guy name the real frog?  I didn’t catch it and didn’t have closed captioning on.

[Chaos Theory]

I actually thought the conceptual choice for the finale was brilliant and I don’t see walking through the door as suicide at all.   The show has always been about what we put into the universe.   Good and bad it matters.   So when each of the characters reached the point where they felt they had nothing left to put into the universe they walked through the door into the last great unknown but even that made Eleanor a little spark of goodness that caused the dude to give Michael his gift card instead of throwing it away and put a little happiness into Michael’s life and in turn the universe.   

Edited January 31, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[catsitter]

27 minutes ago, AuxArx said:

Jason’s a pretty good dancer.  Has that talent been shown before?

What did the guy name the real frog?  I didn’t catch it and didn’t have closed captioning on.

Mr Jumpylegs.

 

I have a question too.  I have a 32" tv and couldn't read the texts that Michael was looking at when he was on Earth. Who were they from?

Loved the cricket reference in Tahani's bucket list (breaking Graham Gooch's record) which I imagine meant nothing to most viewers!  

[The Companion]

I know that some people feel like this was nihlistic or depressing, but I found it rather hopeful and beautiful. I said last night it was perfect for me. I am going to try to put all of that into words. Sorry in advance for the thesis on The Good Place's finale.

So, I don't think this is suicide. I don't think this is like suicide. Suicide comes from a very different place. Maybe it is a place of hopelessness and despair, maybe it is a feeling that you are finally happy but will just be sad tomorrow (you have peaked),  maybe it is a belief that others will be happier without you or will miss you when you are gone. There are 100 feelings that go into suicidal ideation but none of them are what we saw tonight. LAST WEEK, that is what we saw. Had they ended it last week, it would have been a suicide door. Because the people of heaven were done. They were bored and sad and depressed. They had lost all joy.

This week we saw the opposite of that. Every character that we saw go through the door felt "complete." The only characters who tried to enter before completion failed. I think that is a critical point. People aren't using the door because there is nothing else out there. They are using it because they have done everything they want and need, and they have in some way accomplished the last thing holding them in this place. It is time to return to the universe to be a force of good and light not because there is nothing left, but because they have accomplished whatever their soul needs and craves and they are at peace. Perhaps, as implied, it is what is required to even become light.

I think it was most clear with Chidi. For Jason and Tahani, it was very task based. Jason, in particular, felt like maybe it was about accomplishing a goal and then feeling that feeling you have when there is nothing left on the to do list. I think that feeling changed at his party, but it was a little less clear. Tahani was also very list based. But it was Chidi who taught us the most (how right is that). He reached that point and he wasn't devoid of joy. He still loved Athens and Paris and Eleanor. He still had stories to tell and things to discuss. He wasn't depressed. He just was complete. And Eleanor saw that and realized she couldn't "fix it" because there was nothing to fix. He wasn't bored. He wasn't rejecting her. He wasn't a zombie. He had just done everything his soul needed to be complete. It's a beautiful concept. Not unlike nirvana. In fact, I would argue a lot of this was like reincarnation including the parts after the trial. It was about first finding goodness and then about tempering and feeding your soul. It was about time. Time to do everything you wanted and needed. The idea that there comes a point where you don't want or need anything further. A transcendant state where you are metaphorically full? I actually really love that.

I also loved that romantic relationships weren't a goal but part of the journey. We saw deep and enduring and unselfish love. An ideal that is rarely seen or shown on television. And I liked that there was a recognition that romantic love isn't the only love we crave and need. I think Tahani's relationship with her sister and parents may have gotten me more deeply than any moment other than Chidi's wave speech. The idea that we are not only reunited with our loved ones, but that our loved ones are still themselves (but their best selves). It solves the hell is other people problem and it allows for reunification and new bonds to grow. Strong, deep, enduring bonds. How beautiful is that?

I want to touch on how perfect everyone's soul completion moments were. For Jason, it was what felt like a silly throw away at first. A video game. But more than that, it appears it was a true moment of achievement with his father (who he called "Dad" 😭), a perfect dance, a night of joy and the promise to never be forgotten. That is surprisingly poignant. And sort of perfect for this surprisingly deep and touching character who became so much more than comic relief.

For Tahani, she isn't actually done. Yes, she reached the point of completion, but she found something else to complete.  Arguably, she is still working towards completion. Perhaps the day comes when she achieves perfection in the architect arena. But more than that, I love that she became this perfect cosmic hostess. Anticipating the needs of those in her care. Suddenly a skill that seemed so arbitrary, that lacked any real utility, is the most important one any human could have.

For Chidi, we don't see the moment, but we do see the impact of the love of his family and his eternal girlfriend. We see some of the journey (how great was that philosophy class?). I love that Chidi's comes back to his family (rather than some big philosophical achievement). And perhaps the reason is, in part, because so much of his brokenness came from trying to bring his family together and to make things work. There was a beauty in the answer being the simple coming together of people he loves without having to make it happen. There were no charts or slides or presentations. 

And then there is Eleanor. Eleanor who spent her entire life trying to take care of herself cannot achieve completeness until she helps others. Helps everyone she has formed human connections with. In a way, letting Chidi go was part of that journey. Ugh, I am crying thinking about her walking through that door knowing that she was done. But done in a good way. It was really beautiful work.

I think the saddest part is Janet. Left alone to remember her friends. But I suppose her journey is truly amazing too. Learning the capacity to love. Being loved now and forever as she experiences all Bearimies at once. 

And we end with Michael keeping it sleazy. Oh how I loved his guitar lessons and his dog named Jason and his text messages that he will be there in 5 minutes. 

Everything is fine indeed.