S39.E08: We Made it to the Merge!

[Eolivet]

4 minutes ago, meatball77 said:

I wonder if the reason they didn't boot Dan is that Kellee wouldn't flat out say, yes I want him gone

UGH. That's not Kellee's responsibility! That's the producers' responsibility. You don't put that on the starving contestants, you grow some balls and make an executive decision. Instead, what Survivor said tonight is "Sexual harassment? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

[Midori Ya]

13 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Jeff Probst addresses tonights episode.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/11/13/survivor-jeff-probst-island-of-the-idols-epsiode-kellee-dan/

We saw Missy and Elizabeth come up with a strategy to intentionally play up the angle of how uncomfortable Dan made them feel as a way to move the target off themselves, even though Elizabeth admitted to the camera that she had no problems with his actions. Was this crossing the line to tarnish Dan’s reputation as a strategic tool?

I don’t think you can address Elizabeth or Missy’s actions without first remembering that every player is making their decisions based on very limited information and through their own filters. No individual player ever knows all of the information, and that plays directly into this situation. Let’s first address this from the women’s point of view and then look at it from Dan’s.

In the case of Missy, she was very clear when talking with Kellee that she was not going to let Dan “blow up her game” with $1 million on the line. And Missy was not privy to Kellee’s private confessional where she shared how upset she was about Dan. Then, to complicate things, Missy learns that Kellee is actually conspiring against her, to vote her out. This changes everything. Missy has a new archenemy, and voting out Kellee becomes the mission.

Elizabeth has her own entry point into the story. As you saw in the episode, Elizabeth states that she wasn’t uncomfortable with Dan’s behavior. She hadn’t spent time with Kellee, so she didn’t have any insight into how Kellee was feeling. So, from her point of view, Elizabeth didn’t see any issue in going along with the Dan story. Perhaps if she understood the impact Dan was having on Kellee she might have made a very different choice.

On the other side of this story is Dan. One on hand, it’s very clear that Dan’s touching was making some of the women uncomfortable, and we saw many of those moments on camera. There is no denying that it happened. But as Missy and Elizabeth embellished their stories about the situation, it put Dan in an unfair light and further complicated everything. Now the story has taken on a life of its own with several conflicting perspectives.

By the time Janet becomes involved, she is making very big decisions based on a dangerous mixture of truthful and untruthful information. And because no individual player has all the information, rumors now hold as much weight as truth. This is a precise microcosm of what happens in the workplace. We must use this as an opportunity to examine ourselves and how we handle these types of situations.

It's interesting to read Jeff's perspective, and makes me even more convinced the show failed tonight.

Unwanted touching and accusing someone of unwanted touching are two serious things. If the show wanted to address this, and if the show's goal was to show how confusing such situations can be, then they needed to do a much better job pulling together all the various strands that were going on and making sure the audience was aware of them. Jeff points out many instances in which people didn't know what other people were saying. Well, as a viewer, it's not always clear to me how much or how little information is being shared, as it's more than obvious to anyone who watches the show that there's far more communication going on behind the scenes than is ever shown on camera. So I don't think the audience can be expected to know the limits of the various players' knowledge about what was being said.

And it certainly wasn't clear to me that at some point the producers felt Dan was being shown in an unfair light.

If we were intended to use this as an opportunity to examine ourselves and these types of the situations, then the show needed to be much clearer on exactly what was going on, and who knew what, and who was saying what and why. Now, I understand that in doing so, it likely wouldn't have worked well as a typical Survivor episode, but again, if they wanted to deal with this in a serious way - as they seemed to lead us to believe was their intent - then they should have edited it appropriately. Instead, we got this half-assed half-serious, half-handwaving it away as just game play approach.

Yes, after reading Jeff's statement, I'm more than ever convinced that this was a big fat FAIL for Survivor tonight.

[BusyOctober]

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the reason why sexual harassment will continue to be an issue for years to come.  Women like them want to present themselves as empowered females who can kick ass and take names of any competitors, regardless of gender.  They talk about being women sticking together, and supporting each other and sisterhood.  

However, women like Missy and Elizabeth are the first to turn on other women if they feel they aren’t “worth the risk”, or if they can work the situation into a personal advantage. 

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the same type of women who will cry with a coworker in the ladies room who tells them she was raped, yet they will be the first people to slut shame that coworker because she was too drunk, or too flirty when they went out for drinks that one time. 

Women like Missy and Elizabeth are the reason why coworkers, acquaintances, supervisors will always question a report of harassment from other women.  When approached by the accused, these types of women will throw the accuser under the bus by reassuring the accused he never made them feel uncomfortable!  He’s just friendly, or like a big brother, or the office teddy bear! That other woman must be crazy, or jealous, or horny! 

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the reason why victims don’t speak up or report. They are the reason why most females, from 8 to 80 see, feel and understand that “See Something, Say Something!”, and the promise of no reprisals or negative consequences for saying something is 100% absolute bullshit.

Anyone looking for female role models or examples of what real supportive sisterhood is should look for women like Janet.

[Josh371982]

37 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I don't care how touchy feely one is, as a general rule, don't fucking touch people without their saying it's okay, especially when these are still virtually strangers. And as for Kellee, yes she may not be the touchy feely type which is why she had a conversation with Dan early on expressly stating how his behavior can be somewhat inappropriate.

And as evidenced by the footage show, he STILL kept touching her without her okay, even after she'd had that conversation with him. And the women weren't all influenced by Kellee because last week's episode I believe, showed Missy, Lauren and Elizabeth, while still on their other tribe, all discussing how over the top handsy Dan was at night with them. 

And were laughing and giggling particularly Elisabeth 

[EllenB]

Maybe Survivor should stop casting anyone named "Dan." The track record sucks.

If Janet goes, I'm going to be forced to root for Noura.  Good lord.

Bye-bye, Jamal, you seem like a really good person.  Kellee, how did you manage to go from brilliant to brainless in 60 seconds?  Unbelievable.

I ❤ Janet.

Edited November 14, 2019 by EllenB
Autocorrect hates the

[Maggie Mae]

Anybody else wondering why there was an idol for Janet to find? Kelley went out with the one from her old beach ( which wouldn't be rehidden) and the one from the new beach. In the past, only played idols were rehidden. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Maggie Mae

[LanceM]

8 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the reason why sexual harassment will continue to be an issue for years to come.  Women like them want to present themselves as empowered females who can kick ass and take names of any competitors, regardless of gender.  They talk about being women sticking together, and supporting each other and sisterhood.  

However, women like Missy and Elizabeth are the first to turn on other women if they feel they aren’t “worth the risk”, or if they can work the situation into a personal advantage. 

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the same type of women who will cry with a coworker in the ladies room who tells them she was raped, yet they will be the first people to slut shame that coworker because she was too drunk, or too flirty when they went out for drinks that one time. 

Women like Missy and Elizabeth are the reason why coworkers, acquaintances, supervisors will always question a report of harassment from other women.  When approached by the accused, these types of women will throw the accuser under the bus by reassuring the accused he never made them feel uncomfortable!  He’s just friendly, or like a big brother, or the office teddy bear! That other woman must be crazy, or jealous, or horny! 

Women like Elizabeth and Missy are the reason why victims don’t speak up or report. They are the reason why most females, from 8 to 80 see, feel and understand that “See Something, Say Something!”, and the promise of no reprisals or negative consequences for saying something is 100% absolute bullshit.

Anyone looking for female role models or examples of what real supportive sisterhood is should look for women like Janet.

Yeah I think you being a little overdramatic here about people you don't even know.  And per the bolded it was Kellee who turned on Missy when after that long conversation on the beach she was planning on voting her out, not the other way around.

[enchantingmonkey]

7 minutes ago, Midori Ya said:

Instead, we got this half-assed half-serious, half-handwaving it away as just game play approach.

But wasn't that how some of the contestants were treating it?  

[Cassye1021]

Janet should have never told Dan who told what.  If they wanted Dan to know, they would have told him.  Everyone is getting on their case but no one is stopping to think that they might not be comfortable with him confronting them.  I can understand why they didn’t tell Dan the truth.  

[Machiabelly]

In one week we went from two strong female contenders to none. Had Kellee used an idol, Dan would have gone home and there would have been no blowback. 

Not playing the idol killed too people's game.

[princelina]

Did anyone notice when Dan said something about, "I'm in a business where if you tell a lie to a client you're fired immediately!!"  Talent managers get fired for lying - really?

Jamal's speech to Aaron was typically condescending and smug, but okay until he forgot to mention that the one person who was believing the women was being thrown under the bus.

I would like to know what kind of talk was had with Dan.  Back in my teaching days we would get generic emails saying "Teachers - remember not to be on your cell phones when you have students in the class."  All of the teachers in my school would know it was directed at Miss M.  But I would receive a call from Miss M. saying, "Did you see that email?  How dare they treat us like children!"

Also Aaron and Missy went off down the beach the next morning searching for idols.  I wonder what she said to him about the whole thing.  Maybe if she made light of it and the other ladies did too, then he was justified in saying he would have known if there was a problem.

It looks like this will be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think the producers can just go yanking people from the game.  Certainly they should be made to wear clothes for challenges, but I think to have him removed requires more than others finding him Feely but being willing to put up with it for game purposes.  

[TVFan1]

Production should have just ejected Dan from the game. If Kellee would have played one of her 2 idols, Dan would have been gone. He should been tossed regardless.

[Alice Mudgarden]

4 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

The red flags were waving HIGH for me when he came with the "if I happened to brush past you, happened to accidentally touch you, etc." Classic gaslighting and excuses by someone like him. "What, me, I just accidentally brushed by you. I am shocked, shocked I tell you that anyone would feel uncomfortable by me".

"If we're huddled together in the freezing shelter, or I put my hand on your shoulder to excuse myself and you feel squicked out by it, I'm truly, deeply sorry."

Yeah, I can feel your remorse when minimizing everything you did and everything she felt by it. Truly. Deeply.

3 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

Oh...and does anybody else think he looks like Harvey Weinstein? 

Since episode one and this only makes me see it more.

3 hours ago, Midori Ya said:

Also, if Dan was pulled aside and given a warning presumably early on (b/c that's when they showed the producers notes) why was he so surprised that some of the women were complaining about his behavior? Why was he so surprised that Janet would have been reacting from that viewpoint; why did he accuse Janet of cynically trying to make up the whole situation?

Because otherwise he would have had to accept the fact that he was being creepy and change that behavior, and it's much easier to just believe that Janet's a liar.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Alice Mudgarden

[sara416]

I'll echo what so many others of you have said and repeat it.

Fuck you, Dan.

Fuck you, Missy.

Fuck you, Elizabeth. 

Kellee flat out said that she was scared to say something because of what happens to women in the real world when they speak up. Then what happens? She gets voted out after bringing up how uncomfortable she is. Fuck all of you who voted for her. 

And all the men at tribal "if this was happening, I would have known it". Fuck you too. 

I've never cried over Survivor before and I never would have thought that this stupid show would bring me to tears. But  was rage crying more than once during this episode. 

Cheers to Jeff for "Dan. I'll never let it go."

Take them all down, Janet. 

[LadyChatts]

11 minutes ago, sara416 said:

And all the men at tribal "if this was happening, I would have known it". Fuck you too. 

I keep going back to this, and why it bugged me so much.  And I realized, everyone said that Janet was there, so Dan would stop.  That they could go to Janet.  That she would take care of it.  And the events at TC demonstrated exactly why they would go to Janet and not Aaron or the other guys, and also why they would be quick to back track what they originally said or meant.  I don't want to say Aaron, Tommy, or Dean wouldn't defend one of the ladies if push came to shove.  But tonight was not a good look.  It's too bad that the other voice so relevant to the conversation was Kellee, and she was on the jury and couldn't speak up.

And on a game related note, since when did Tommy and Lauren get so close to Aaron and company?  

Edited November 14, 2019 by LadyChatts

[GenerationX]

Likely the messiest episode in the show's history.  The producer interruption in Kellee's confessional was jarring, game play was haphazard, and the central storyline played out in an uncomfortable and largely unsatisfying way.  With the notable exception of Janet, everyone came out of this episode tarnished.

[30 Helens]

It’s almost as if this episode were scripted to show all perspectives and archetypes of the MeToo movement.

First, you have the handsy male who doesn’t understand what all the fuss is about.

Next you have the woman who vocally rejected his actions, but now has been literally silenced.

Then there are the women who hypocritically took up the banner as a way to advance their own agendas.

Let’s not forget the fully woke guy who is best positioned to explain it all because he has Female Friends and Sisters.

And finally, the woman who put her principles above selfish gain and in turn was disbelieved and rejected by all sides.

I don’t know how many baths it’s gonna take to wash off the disgust of this episode, but I’m not looking forward to my next water bill.

TEAM. JANET.  That is all.

[Steph Sometimes]

In a matter of two episodes, this went from being a great season with a ton of cool, strong women to root for to this. 

I hate all the men who are left. Also depending on who the final 3 are, the reunion has the potential to be really ugly.

Was that the first time we heard from a producer, besides anything medical-related? It was like The Office when the guy started talking with Pam. Except terrible.

I was rooting so hard for Kellee and then to go out with two idols! I'm guessing she'll be asked back (whether she comes back is another question).

So many what ifs. What if Dean had been voted out instead of Jack? Why didn't Kellee play the idols?

On the shallowest of shallow notes because my mind needs something shallow, Noura has gorgeous hair.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Steph Sometimes

[Cotypubby]

Missy is perhaps the most despicable player I have ever seen. What she did is way worse than anything Russell ever did. Doesn’t she and Elizabeth know that they are being filmed and they will be showing lying about being sexually harassed on TV? How could they ever think that would work out well for them in real life. They disgust me. Either Missy really was made uncomfortable by Dan, and lied to him that his behavior was fine to get him against Janet, or she was never bothered by him and she lied that she was to get close to Kellee. Either way is disgusting. 

I’ve thought Aaron was a douche from day one and he proved why tonight. He’s got a mother, so you know he cares about women. 🙄

I hate everything about this episode. Production was complicit in it all too. They played up Dan being inappropriately touchy-feely all season, if he wasn’t really that way, then they shit all over him and if he really was inappropriate then they should have done something. 

😑

I hope they all get roasted on social media for this. Dan, Missy, Elizabeth, Aaron. You are all terrible people. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Cotypubby

[EllenB]

1 hour ago, LadyChatts said:

I keep going back to this, and why it bugged me so much.  And I realized, everyone said that Janet was there, so Dan would stop.  That they could go to Janet.  That she would take care of it.  And the events at TC demonstrated exactly why they would go to Janet and not Aaron or the other guys, and also why they would be quick to back track what they originally said or meant.  I don't want to say Aaron, Tommy, or Dean wouldn't defend one of the ladies if push came to shove.  But tonight was not a good look.  It's too bad that the other voice so relevant to the conversation was Kellee, and she was on the jury and couldn't speak up.

And on a game related note, since when did Tommy and Lauren get so close to Aaron and company?  

For me, it was the douchy implication of "Well, if I, a big strong MAN didn't know about it, then it must not have happened."   He hit the trifecta of mansplaining misogynistic moron tonight.

[Cthulhudrew]

So many things that genuinely angered me this episode, most of which are shared sentiments clearly. 

Dan and others like him who don't have enough self-awareness to take the time to examine their own behaviors when called on them, but instead seek out the nearest supportive "you're fine" advice to bolster their own fragile self-delusion. I don't feel bad that he has to face the scrutiny of the public.

I do feel bad that the situation was used to manipulate both himself and- much more offensively, Janet- for the advantage of others. Just because the allegations were demonstratively true, rather than being false accusations does not in any way diminish the abhorrent behavior of using it for personal tangible or intangible benefit, and I'm absolutely appalled that Tribal focused on Dan and Janet and let Missy and Liz slide under the radar with nothing more than lingering camera shots of their guilt? indifference? Unclear, because they weren't called out on it.

Then there's meathead Aaron who professes to not have known about the behavior going on, which I find incredibly suspect since, apparently, the producers met with everyone individually to discuss personal boundaries (which Janet even affirmed in her conversation with Dan). So either he was too stupid to put two and two together and realize they were talking about Dan without naming names, he was lying at tribal, or he was just being a complete bonehead and doing exactly what Jamal insinuated, which was being a head-in-the-sand victim blaming asshat.

I really feel for Janet (and Kellee, who was also manipulated). I hope Janet makes it to the end and trounces all these losers.

And for all that Jamal has a tendency to get on his soapbox, sometimes annoyingly, from time to time, I loved him for his words at tribal. If only some of his former tribemates had an ounce of his self-reflection.

ETA: Also, I see some people praising Jeff, and I honestly was initially liking how he handled things, but I stopped rooting for him when he failed to call out that some of the players seemed okay with the gaslighting because "it was Survivor and not the real world." I didn't like how he glossed it over by saying "the game complicates things." No. There are things that are not that complicated, even in-game, and you've had no problem calling out questionable gameplay in the past.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Cthulhudrew

[Cthulhudrew]

2 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

Anybody else wondering why there was an idol for Janet to find? Kelley went out with the one from her old beach ( which wouldn't be rehidden) and the one from the new beach. In the past, only played idols were rehidden. 

My guess would be because she went out with both, and that wouldn't have afforded them the unpredictability that idols bring by not restocking.

[Cthulhudrew]

2 hours ago, Midori Ya said:

It's interesting to read Jeff's perspective, and makes me even more convinced the show failed tonight.

Unwanted touching and accusing someone of unwanted touching are two serious things. If the show wanted to address this, and if the show's goal was to show how confusing such situations can be, then they needed to do a much better job pulling together all the various strands that were going on and making sure the audience was aware of them.

I love the way you phrased this. I had this same conversation with my friend as we were watching about how they were mixing their messages at final tribal and failing to fully address the topics they seemed to be wanting to discuss, and failing to address yet another that was (to me) equally disturbing. 

[Cotypubby]

I wish Jeff would have called out Missy and Elizabeth. It’s their kind of behavior that leads to people not believing women. Elizabeth literally said on TV (!!) that she would lie about a man behaving inappropriately in order to get ahead. What. The FUCK!?

[Sunnykm]

First episode in 20 years that we had a commercial break before Jeff read the votes.  

What a crappy season.  I admit I have liked Jamal from the beginning (something really wonderful and sexy about his hands) so tonight was really awful for me to watch.  But Missy and Elizabeth you are the reason we women have a MeToo movement.  

[Cthulhudrew]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yes, absolutely. Sexual harassment doesn't just stop at touching butts or boobs. It can be any unwanted touching. Don't forget, Kellee told him to stop multiple times, one time that was captured on camera (him touching her hair) and him laughing it off. He didn't seem to take the "no, stop" seriously. Kellee shouldn't have needed to tell him "hey, stop touching my hair" more than once.

Yes- the "It's okay, I don't have sand on my hands, I just washed them" scene was truly cringey.

[GaT]

I sat here screaming at Kelle to play one of her idols, I honestly can't believe she didn't. What was she thinking?

I was all for Jamal getting voted out until he gave his speech, then I wanted him to stay. 

Aaron, you're dead to me. I hope when you watch this episode it's with a lot of women & they let you know what an asshole you are.

I hate what the women did to Janet, & I am so glad she stuck up for herself & didn't let them get away with the lies. I wish she hadn't wasted her idol, but I can't fault her for playing it. You really have to wonder what the hell is wrong with women who will put up with a guy who touches them inappropriately for the sake of a game. 

[colorbars]

Well, at least I came out of this episode finally having someone I want to root for. Even though I know Janet has no shot of winning, I can't handle anyone else.

As everyone has already said, Missy and Elizabeth are absolutely awful and Lauren sucks too. Dan is a creep and the fact that he acted like these accusations came out of nowhere and he had no idea people were uncomfortable, as if Kellee hadn't already spoken to him, as if the producers didn't do the same thing. The fact that he or anyone could pretend that they didn't complain when the producers were called in for a reason...

I know jury members can't talk but I really wish they had made an exception this one time and let Kellee speak. I hated that she just had to sit there and listen to all of that.

[Melina22]

2 hours ago, Steph Sometimes said:

Was that the first time we heard from a producer, besides anything medical-related? It was like The Office when the guy started talking with Pam. Except terrible.

Perfect example! I had the exact same feeling of "Wait. What is happening?" 

[mythoughtis]

I think what annoyed me the most about Aarons’  ‘ I would have known’ comment at tribal  was this: 

the assumption that the women should have come to him to solve their problem as if they were children and he was their older brother and protector.   They were under no obligation to tell him.  Women who are sexually harassed in the workplace are supposed to go to their HR department, not random co-workers. 
 

I intensely dislike Jeff’s comments quoted in this thread.  The edits have shown Dan being inappropriate in multiple episodes out of the 7 aired prior to tonight. This was known to the cameramen and therefore to the producers and Jeff.  Regardless of whether Missy and Elizabeth played it up, there are rules about unwanted physical contact between the players. Usually that’s meant to stop punches, but it could have covered this situation.  The producers failed to enforce the rules.  
 
Missy and Elizabeth will have targets on their backs  by sleazy men for the rest of their lives. Unethical immoral men will feel free to be inappropriate with them because they will feel these two women will not be believed if they complain. 

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

It’s almost as if this episode were scripted to show all perspectives and archetypes of the MeToo movement.

First, you have the handsy male who doesn’t understand what all the fuss is about.

Next you have the woman who vocally rejected his actions, but now has been literally silenced.

Then there are the women who hypocritically took up the banner as a way to advance their own agendas.

Let’s not forget the fully woke guy who is best positioned to explain it all because he has Female Friends and Sisters.

And finally, the woman who put her principles above selfish gain and in turn was disbelieved and rejected by all sides.

I don’t know how many baths it’s gonna take to wash off the disgust of this episode, but I’m not looking forward to my next water bill.

TEAM. JANET.  That is all.

This is such a perfect summary, I would just add one line:  The guys who are friends with the accused who refuse to believe anything bad about him, because he's a good ole boy.

[Annabel11]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Which is why, out of Dan, Elizabeth and Missy, I'm upset with Missy the least. I can understand her reasoning. Part of me can even sympathize with her. In that particular moment, I get why she may have done what she did to get Kellee out. But it still makes me upset that Missy couldn't jump in to defend Janet at any point when Missy knew the truth by TC. I'm more upset with Missy for the last half of the episode, more so than the first half. 

Elizabeth, however? Still a piece of shit human being. Her and Aaron need to get off my screen, along with Dan.

But then Missy went on to actually vote for Janet!! With a look of hatred. Why?? That makes her the worst to me. 

[DEL901]

6 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't like Aaron, but he legitimately might have been stupid enough to buy that Janet stood up against Dan as a "Survivor move".  

Then again, maybe it wasn't that crazy for him to think that. Missy and Elizabeth used sexual harassment as a Survivor move, so he was sort of in the right church, but wrong pew.  He badly misjudged Janet badly but he wasn't wrong that a player or players could sink that low. 

Sad.

I think he was projecting what he would have done onto Janet.  

6 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I am beyond pissed. These people make Dan Foley and Jeff Varner look less reprehensible. Not good but less shitty. There is no saving Will.

fuck Missy. She was uncomfortable. She described how Dan touched her and how it was creepy. We saw him stroking her leg. She changed her story when confronted by Janet for game reasons. No. Just no. 

Fuck Elisabeth. She lied about being uncomfortable as a strategy. As a fucking strategy. She screwed over every person, regardless of gender, by strategizing harassment. She is the poster child example for every harasser out there. Fuck her. I hope she loses her medals for violating the athletes creed but I doubt that will happen.

Fuck Dan. He has grabby and hands and inappropriate. He is pervy and an asshole. 

Fuck Aaron and his bullshit logic. They didn’t tell me so it didn’t happen.

Thank God for Janet and Jamal who did and said what needed to be said.

ah, and Fuck Production for not pulling Dan.

Fuck them all including production... all except Janet.    She was so defeated, I hope that she feels better now when she is flooded with support and I hope she gets a standing ovation at the reunion. 

6 hours ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

And they even included camera guys in the shot of her running into the water! 
 

Survivor failed tonight. Enough to make not wanna watch anymore. This is unacceptable 

Yup. 
 

Regarding the below quote...Dan said none of the women he works with ever complained.....well, duh....he has power over their careers.   

6 hours ago, Cutty said:

Dan is a talent manager? Casting couch?

Can’t believe I was rooting for Missy. I hope she feels complete shame and humiliation watching this back

[Bryce Lynch]

4 hours ago, Steph Sometimes said:

In a matter of two episodes, this went from being a great season with a ton of cool, strong women to root for to this. 

I hate all the men who are left. Also depending on who the final 3 are, the reunion has the potential to be really ugly.

Was that the first time we heard from a producer, besides anything medical-related? It was like The Office when the guy started talking with Pam. Except terrible.

I was rooting so hard for Kellee and then to go out with two idols! I'm guessing she'll be asked back (whether she comes back is another question).

So many what ifs. What if Dean had been voted out instead of Jack? Why didn't Kellee play the idols?

On the shallowest of shallow notes because my mind needs something shallow, Noura has gorgeous hair.

Too bad the boom mic guy didn't clobber Dan like the one on The Office did to the mural vandal from the warehouse.

I am going with "Kellee subconsciously torpedoed her own game to escape from Dan's harassment."

I really liked Kellee and like her even more for standing up for herself.  But, that was still one of the dumbest moves in Survivor history.  At least Feely Dan and his accomplishes, Elizabeth and Missy knocked her dumb move off the front page.

[DEL901]

This episode explains why the initial touching issues were featured when the show started.   They couldn’t sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn’t happen.  
 

The reunion is going to be interesting......

[sigmaforce86]

7 hours ago, LanceM said:

Jeff Probst addresses tonights episode.

I don’t think you can address Elizabeth or Missy’s actions without first remembering that every player is making their decisions based on very limited information and through their own filters. No individual player ever knows all of the information, and that plays directly into this situation. Let’s first address this from the women’s point of view and then look at it from Dan’s.

In the case of Missy, she was very clear when talking with Kellee that she was not going to let Dan “blow up her game” with $1 million on the line. And Missy was not privy to Kellee’s private confessional where she shared how upset she was about Dan. Then, to complicate things, Missy learns that Kellee is actually conspiring against her, to vote her out. This changes everything. Missy has a new archenemy, and voting out Kellee becomes the mission.

Elizabeth has her own entry point into the story. As you saw in the episode, Elizabeth states that she wasn’t uncomfortable with Dan’s behavior. She hadn’t spent time with Kellee, so she didn’t have any insight into how Kellee was feeling. So, from her point of view, Elizabeth didn’t see any issue in going along with the Dan story. Perhaps if she understood the impact Dan was having on Kellee she might have made a very different choice.

On the other side of this story is Dan. One on hand, it’s very clear that Dan’s touching was making some of the women uncomfortable, and we saw many of those moments on camera. There is no denying that it happened. But as Missy and Elizabeth embellished their stories about the situation, it put Dan in an unfair light and further complicated everything. Now the story has taken on a life of its own with several conflicting perspectives.

By the time Janet becomes involved, she is making very big decisions based on a dangerous mixture of truthful and untruthful information. And because no individual player has all the information, rumors now hold as much weight as truth. This is a precise microcosm of what happens in the workplace. We must use this as an opportunity to examine ourselves and how we handle these types of situations.

 I'm sorry but I don't believe this - I know Jeff was there and we should trust that he has insights we don't but..........Elizabeth told Janet she was uncomfortable with Dan when they were having a private conversation and strategy didn't come into it and Missy told Kellee the same thing during their beach side chat.  It was only when Lauren started to manipulate Missy and convince her that Kellee was just conning Missy so she could vote her out that the backtracking began.  And Elizabeth said straight out she'd down play or blow up the situation depending on what was best for her game.  So Jeff saying now that they both embellished seems to ignore some of the honest conversations (i.e. when they were being candid and not really in full game play mode) that each had with a tribe mate.  It's hard to say because we know we're not seeing everything but I don't believe they would have shown everything they did and had the on screen text explanation of what was happening if Dan were being accused "unfairly" and if Kellee were the only one affected and Missy and Elizabeth embellished (lied) about what they experienced.  

[alegtostandon]

Mr. Tostandon gets home from work shortly before Survivor starts.  He tries not to start the show until I am sitting down (we eat dinner in the living room on Survivor night). Since it was a 2 hour episode last night and he has to be back at work at 4am, I told him to go ahead and start it and I could hear from  the kitchen,  which aggravates him, he says I'm going to miss something important.  I popped in when it said Production stepped in and talked to the group and Dan.   What I missed though,  was Missy and Elizabeth using this to take the target off of themselves and put it on Dan.  From what I had seen,  I thought Janet was taking the position that it was up to her to resolve this issue in her own. 

I read an interview with Jeff this morning where he detailed everything.  Where I originally was thinking that Janet approached them and  was putting words in Elizabeth and Missy's mouths,  I now know they approached her and did express fear of Dan.  My heart goes out to Janet.  She was in a very awkward position and did what she thought was right.  

I will need to go back and rewatch the few minutes I missed.   Now,  I'm as angry as the rest of you! 

ETA: My back still hurts just from watching the challenge where they had to keep the 3 balls from rolling off.  . That's an awkward position to have to stand in. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by alegtostandon

[Eolivet]

3 minutes ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I don't believe they would have shown everything they did and had the on screen text explanation of what was happening if Dan were being accused "unfairly" and if Kellee were the only one affected and Missy and Elizabeth embellished (lied) about what they experienced. 

THIS. Missy and Elizabeth recanted, that's all, and they minimized and they downplayed. They ended up throwing another woman (Janet) under the bus, but I don't believe they deserve the brunt of the blame. They did what women do in these situations: try to SURVIVE.

This is production's fault entirely, and while I'm sort of glad that they showed the unvarnished truth, I hate that once again, it's the women, not the SYSTEM that are getting the blame. The women chose survival. I don't believe Dan was "unfairly" accused. He did it, and they decided to take back what they said. They worked within a failed system that saw a man sexually harassing other women, a system that decided, "well, if the women don't say it's bad, it must not be." How about using some judgment? Of course, production is going to spin this as the women "using it as strategy" -- it avoids them from looking in the mirror and saying "you kept a sexual harasser in the game, and spun a story that was about how one woman took it too personally and the others used it for 'strategy.'"

I'll say it again: had production removed Dan from the game, no questions asked, do I believe Missy, Elizabeth and Lauren would be clamoring for his reinstatement? If the answer is "no," then they didn't "falsely accuse him" or use it as a "strategy," they made a different choice than Kellee. They chose to survive within a system that failed them.

It's the system, not the women.

It's the system, not the women.

It's the system, not the women.

[amazingracefan]

"big ideas"

This is a very weird Survivor, I definitely think the producers want to push social issues to make the show more serious, but it can feel too forced at times and makes the game take a backseat  I enjoy viewers who just go along with the edit being blindsided. but at the same time they shouldn't try and foster too much hate in the audience.  It's very easy to get much of the audience that way as many want a simple storyline where it's easy to say who are the villains and heroes.

Happy enough with the eliminations.  Kelee just got annoying.  Noura blowing up her game was funny, but at the same time I find it hard to warm to her as well now.  I suspect if I support anyone towards the end it will be one of the men. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by amazingracefan

[phlebas]

7 hours ago, Lamima said:

Then the show should have booted him...way long time ago!

I think so too. Grabbing someone by the breast would probably have gotten him booted immediately and maybe led to criminal charges -- Survivor misplayed this event, IMHO, but they have evolved from the days of Richard Hatch rubbing his naked crank against Sue Hawk. 

But not grabbing a breast doesn't make stroking someone's hair or playing with their toes or any other parts okay. 

Dan's apparent befuddlement at the accusations concerns me. Ignoring the interstitial card from CBS claiming they talked to him about it (which is weird, since he had this gosh-wow surprise reaction after the first TC, but whatever). I *think* I remember him or one of his defenders saying "that's just how he was raised, it's a generational thing" in Episode 1. When you combine his declared "hugginess" with his confusion about anyone being offended, I'm worried about how he treats his employees. Kellee was reluctant to speak up because it might torpedo a game that ends with an enormous amount of money -- but employees being afraid to speak out against their bosses is a real, daily problem.

[amazingracefan]

3 hours ago, phlebas said:

 Grabbing someone by the breast

But not grabbing a breast

Bringing that up itself puts it into people minds.  Or the comments below.  I really hope we can finally move back onto the game now.

10 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

As a woman and a rape survivor

10 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

type of women who will cry with a coworker in the ladies room who tells them she was raped, yet

11 hours ago, Cutty said:

Dan is a talent manager? Casting couch?

Edited November 14, 2019 by amazingracefan

[jsm1125]

I don’t have anything to add about the Dan-Elizabeth-Kellee-Missy-Janet-Aaron dynamic that hasn’t already been said.

This is a long shot, but I wonder if Karishma has a sliver of a chance at winning? We’ve seen Sandra nod her head in approval or say something like “she’s smart” at three separate tribal councils so far this season.

[violet and green]

What a mess.

[Haleth]

I am angry at Dan for being so slimy and denying his groping.  (Sorry, it's on tape.)

I am angry at Missy and Elizabeth for making light of a serious issue.  (Sorry, it's on tape.)

But mostly I'm angry at the producers for exploiting a serious issue for entertainment and ratings.  And congratulating themselves for being beacons of justice and enlightenment in the Me Too era.  All while the women are forced to wear lingerie for 39 days.

I hope they (especially the contestants) are proud of how they all look this morning.

eta:  Jeff's comments are appalling.  Was he watching the same show we were?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Haleth

[Sarnia]

I often read the comments here before catching up on a episode. I don't think I want to watch this one.

Thank you to all those who expressed that touching someone when they have explicitly told you they don't want it is inappropriate.

[phlebas]

30 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

Bringing that up itself puts it into people minds.  Or the comment below.  I really hope we can finally move back onto the game now.

The original comment was about the seriousness of Dan's actions. I (and others) were saying her didn't have to grab someone's privates for it to be a serious problem.

And it was part of the game -- certainly to Missy and Elizabeth, at least.

[Jel]

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I was so excited for a minute thinking he was about to talk his pervy ass out of the game when Jeff snapped back at him that he would always bring up this issue. Because till that point, Dan was up there trying to act like he was some victim being attacked by Jeff. And it's all this that makes me know that "apology" of his was bullshit. And I doubt this is the first time a woman has felt uncomfortable by Dan.

The red flags were waving HIGH for me when he came with the "if I happened to brush past you, happened to accidentally touch you, etc." Classic gaslighting and excuses by someone like him. "What, me, I just accidentally brushed by you. I am shocked, shocked I tell you that anyone would feel uncomfortable by me".

Totally agree. His kind of "if it's freezing cold and I.." or "If I have to get up and I.." UGH.

His attempts to kind of guilt and shame the women who objected to it, arg! Yes Dan, even if you need to get past someone, or even if it's really cold, you still need permission to put your arms all over someone simply because other people do not exist in this world  to meet your needs. Other people actually matter too -- even if you have a wife and kids! and 100 employees (WTF?)  The entitlement of this guy. SMH.  

[sadiegirl1999]

I am starting to wonder if Kellee deliberately didn’t play her idols Bc she no longer wanted to be around Dan and that was her way of doing so. 

[phlebas]

3 minutes ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

I am starting to wonder if Kellee deliberately didn’t play her idols Bc she no longer wanted to be around Dan and that was her way of doing so. 

Well, if she'd played an idol, Dan would have gone out

[Haleth]

3 minutes ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

I am starting to wonder if Kellee deliberately didn’t play her idols Bc she no longer wanted to be around Dan and that was her way of doing so. 

It's going to be very awkward at Ponderosa when he gets voted out.