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S39.E08: We Made it to the Merge!

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2 minutes ago, bunnyface said:

How sickening.  My problem, and I admit I haven't read all the other comments, but my problem is the women all had problems with Dan.  They all, or most all, expressed concerns at one point or another.  But as soon as it's brought to light, they all sweep it under the rug.  "It's no big deal."  And then try to blame the whole thing on the one person trying to help.

And then they wonder why women aren't believed or listened to?  BECAUSE OF SHIT LIKE THIS.

Disgusting.

Same old story.  The "alpha dudes" bro up and the "catty" women attack each other.

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Dan should have been removed after many of the females made complaints. Though why would they sleep next to him, I don't know. I would have been snuggled up between 2 other gals. Anyway, he should have been pulled from the game. Then Missy and Elizabeth wouldn't have had the opportunity to use that for a game advantage. But, nooooooo, the show was looking for social discussion this season. Maybe using it (as well)...for ratings. Heart breaks for Janet. Truly a gem of a person and almost went home for it. So it seems, in our society, it pays to either be a lout/cad or to be someone who uses that ill behavior for some advantage for themselves. Very interesting. I wish Peachy would have called out the other side (not just Dan). Seemed like he was tiptoeing around it but he kind of implied like he was calling out Janet for using the situation for HER advantage. Peachy is a jerk! Janet FTW!!!! But I am super pissed with the show and may call it quits!

Edited by Lamima
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3 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

I haven’t heard any mention of Elaine tonight. I’m guessing she didn’t piss anyone off too badly?

She drank the Kool-aid and dismissed Feely Dan's groping.

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Missy just sat at tribal not speaking or looking anyone. I was half expecting her to stand up and spill everything.  I thought she looked upset, but she’d rather Janet take all the heat.   
 

The reunion show will be interesting.   I hope Elizabitch and everyone from tonight but Janet and Kellee get booed.   

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9 hours ago, Midori Ya said:

Also, if Dan was pulled aside and given a warning presumably early on (b/c that's when they showed the producers notes) why was he so surprised that some of the women were complaining about his behavior? Why was he so surprised that Janet would have been reacting from that viewpoint; why did he accuse Janet of cynically trying to make up the whole situation?

And this is exactly why I said Dan was full of shit. And we know the conversation did happen because Janet sort of references it without saying it, when she says to Dan during their conversation on the beach, "that's what that talk (or thing, can't remember exactly) was about" and he sort of dismissively nods like, "yeah, okay".

So the producers had a talk with him, to the point of issuing a warning and yet he acts so stunned by what Janet was saying. I guess he might have thought it all came from Kellee who in his mind was lying against him for game purposes and so that's why he didn't want to believe that other women were saying it too. 

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I hate to do this because I will likely get a lot of heat...but...groping and sexual harassment...was it really?????? He touched hair, an ankle, slept with his arm around someone (who laid there next to him). There are lots of touchy feely types. He didn't grab butt or boob or press his junk against them or try to kiss them or any such...did he? They kept showing the same clip in the sleeping thing with his arm around, who was it Elizabeth. So just one night...where were all the other nights? 

What if Janet did the same touchy feely to the ladies? Would they even notice. And the first to notice Dan doing this was Kellee who may not be a touchy feely person (she said she wasn't...I also am not and would be bugged by ANYONE doing those things so I'd keep distance...just like I am bugged by loud mouth chewers so I try to sit away at table from those I know who are). So maybe Kellee discussed her feelings with the other ladies and it became a 'thing'...something talked about. But, clearly, Elizabeth wasn't bothered by Dan and she said so in her TH. Janet, who we know is an A+ lady, was not bothered by Dan. So.....I feel the show exploited this series of events that unfolded due to some trash people using it for an advantage in the game. 

We see Elaine, Lauren, Tommy and Aron and all kinda huddled and conspiring with Elizabeth and Missy. They all knew full well what they were doing. ANd it was gross. We saw Missy and Aron (was it them?) sneaking off that night to idol hunt. IT IS ALL GAME PLAY! Cut throat, do whatever it takes, game play. But gone too far this time!

Edited by Lamima
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44 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I think I hate all these people. And I hate how every episode has become A Very Special Episode. 

Me too!  I didn't realize it until a few minutes into the first challenge when I thought to myself, "I don't want any of these people to win immunity."  I've gone back and forth on Jamal, so since the balance tipped in his favor tonight, of course he went home.  I guess Dean hasn't pissed me off yet, so Go Dean?

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Just to be that guy I feel I need to point out the reason that Missy told Liz to play it up with Janet was because Lauren told them that all the Vokai's were voting for Missy that night including Kellee who just had that long emotional conversation with Missy at the beach. They thought they were being played and if not for Jamal changing the vote to Dan they might have been right.

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3 minutes ago, Lamima said:

I hate toi do this because I will likely get a lot of heat...but...groping and sexual harassment...was it really?????? He touched hair, an ankle, slept with his arm around someone (who laid there next to him). There are lots of touchy feely types. He didn't grab butt or boob or press his junk against them or try to kiss them or any such...did he? What is Janet does the same touchy feely to the ladies? Would they even notice. And the first to notice Dan doing this was Kellee who may not be a touchy feely person (she said she wasn't...I also am not and would be bugged by ANYONE doing those things so I'd keep distance...just like I am bugged by loud mouth chewers so I try to sit away at table from those I know who are). So maybe Kellee discussed her feelings with the other ladies and it became a 'thing'...something talked about. But, clearly, Elizabeth wasn't bothered by Dan and she said so in her TH. Janet, who we know is an A+ laady, was not bothered by Dan. So.....I feel the show exploited this series of events that unfolded due to some trash people using it for an advantage in the game. 

IIRC, Kellee said she would tell Dan she wasn’t a touchy feely person as a way to tell him not to touch her by making like SHE had a problem.... which she did aka Feely Dan.... but in the context of the game, she didn’t feel like she could just tell him to keep his hands to himself.  

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21 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

I’m not home and I am not able to watch. Not sure if I’m looking forward to it or dreading it. I haven’t heard any mention of Elaine tonight. I’m guessing she didn’t piss anyone off too badly?

She annoyed me.  Jumping to Dans defense.  Telling Dan of Janets’ plan to vote him off.  She’s a factory worker.  You know she’s been sexually harassed before.  

Everyobe else has already mentioned Missy, Elizabeth- but  Lauren had a hand in the lying too.  
 

there’s nothing more to be said except Dan should have been ejected in the first episode. 

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Feely Dan made his Twitter account private.  As much of a scumbag as he is, at least he has the sense to hide, while Missy and Elizabeth are getting dragged on their Twitter accounts for their disgusting behavior.

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9 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I think part of that was the producers and CBS covering themselves. They showed the producer talking to Kellee and they put in the description so that we know they did something to address the complaints. And it sounds like they did all the right things, but they wanted us to know that so we can't say, "why didn't a producer step in? why didn't anyone talk to Dan?" etc. Cause we probably would be saying that otherwise.

They definitely also showed footage to confirm Kellee's story, but they also showed Elizabeth saying several times how she was never uncomfortable with Dan and was just using it for gameplay. Missy didn't really have as clear a story.

I stopped rooting for a lot of people tonight, and even hate some of them. Aaraon's comment about "if it was a real problem I would have known about it" was pretty fucked up. 

I feel like part of Aaron's response ("I have sisters, I have female clients") is the equivalent of someone using a racial slur, but saying 'hey, I have friends of that race, so I get racism.'  

You would just think that some of these people would be more self aware.  Missy, Elizabeth, Lauren, Tommy, and Aaron looked bored and annoyed during the 2nd TC.  Dan feeling like he's the victim, and Aaron's cringe worthy comment about how Janet was trying to make herself the victim.

The best part about Kellee being voted off, is she's going to be able to tell her story to the press tomorrow.  Everyone else has to try and defend themselves on SM while getting dragged.  And I'm sure there will be limits as to what they'll be allowed to say.  Already people are getting dragged on twitter and IG.  Aaron posted a photo of the immunity necklace and said that he won that...yeah, the responses aren't anything along the lines of 'congratulations.'

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4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Oh, I totally forgot about this moment. That's why I was starting to get confused on the Elizabeth/Missy/Janet stuff.

But yeah, this also makes Missy look worse for me, so thanks for the reminder.

Yes, absolutely. Sexual harassment doesn't just stop at touching butts or boobs. It can be any unwanted touching. Don't forget, Kellee told him to stop multiple times, one time that was captured on camera (him touching her hair) and him laughing it off. He didn't seem to take the "no, stop" seriously. Kellee shouldn't have needed to tell him "hey, stop touching my hair" more than once.

And touching someone's toes is really, really weird, so I have no idea why he'd do that with Missy. Again, if someone tells you to stop, you stop. Kellee DID tell him. He didn't listen. So yes, he did deserve a warning for even just what he did to Kellee, to the point where she was crying about it to others. Being touchy feely doesn't give you the right to be touchy feely with complete strangers.

Plus, we haven't seen every single instance of Dan's behaviour, but when even just one woman, let alone multiple women, are explaining how uncomfortable they feel around Dan, even if a couple of them don't feel that way, you still should believe the women saying that they're uncomfortable. 

It wasn't just Kellee. It was Missy, Molly (I forgot about Molly) and Noura, at the very least. I don't remember if any of the other women have also made specific comments about it. So that's just four women on the top of my head who feel the same way. It's not a coincidence.

Then the show should have booted him...way long time ago!

Edited by Lamima
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Jeff Probst addresses tonights episode.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/11/13/survivor-jeff-probst-island-of-the-idols-epsiode-kellee-dan/

We saw Missy and Elizabeth come up with a strategy to intentionally play up the angle of how uncomfortable Dan made them feel as a way to move the target off themselves, even though Elizabeth admitted to the camera that she had no problems with his actions. Was this crossing the line to tarnish Dan’s reputation as a strategic tool?


I don’t think you can address Elizabeth or Missy’s actions without first remembering that every player is making their decisions based on very limited information and through their own filters. No individual player ever knows all of the information, and that plays directly into this situation. Let’s first address this from the women’s point of view and then look at it from Dan’s.

In the case of Missy, she was very clear when talking with Kellee that she was not going to let Dan “blow up her game” with $1 million on the line. And Missy was not privy to Kellee’s private confessional where she shared how upset she was about Dan. Then, to complicate things, Missy learns that Kellee is actually conspiring against her, to vote her out. This changes everything. Missy has a new archenemy, and voting out Kellee becomes the mission.

Elizabeth has her own entry point into the story. As you saw in the episode, Elizabeth states that she wasn’t uncomfortable with Dan’s behavior. She hadn’t spent time with Kellee, so she didn’t have any insight into how Kellee was feeling. So, from her point of view, Elizabeth didn’t see any issue in going along with the Dan story. Perhaps if she understood the impact Dan was having on Kellee she might have made a very different choice.

On the other side of this story is Dan. One on hand, it’s very clear that Dan’s touching was making some of the women uncomfortable, and we saw many of those moments on camera. There is no denying that it happened. But as Missy and Elizabeth embellished their stories about the situation, it put Dan in an unfair light and further complicated everything. Now the story has taken on a life of its own with several conflicting perspectives.

By the time Janet becomes involved, she is making very big decisions based on a dangerous mixture of truthful and untruthful information. And because no individual player has all the information, rumors now hold as much weight as truth. This is a precise microcosm of what happens in the workplace. We must use this as an opportunity to examine ourselves and how we handle these types of situations.

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28 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

Does anyone else think he looks like Harvey Weinstein? 

OMG yes! 1000 times yes. 
 

AND he’s in the same business. 
 

It makes my skin crawl.

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27 minutes ago, PaperTree said:

Same old story.  The "alpha dudes" bro up and the "catty" women attack each other.

I don't like Aaron, but he legitimately might have been stupid enough to buy that Janet stood up against Dan as a "Survivor move".  

Then again, maybe it wasn't that crazy for him to think that. Missy and Elizabeth used sexual harassment as a Survivor move, so he was sort of in the right church, but wrong pew.  He badly misjudged Janet badly but he wasn't wrong that a player or players could sink that low. 

Sad.

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4 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

Here's what continues to bother me. They set the women up to turn on each other. They set them up to fail. By treating this like a court of law, like "innocent until proven guilty" instead of "we are the almighty producers and we can kick you out for whatever reason."

Production could have gone to Dan and said, "you have been inappropriately touching women, you have been told by at least one woman that it makes them uncomfortable and you continue to do it, we're removing you from the game" and then told the contestants simply, "Dan violated the rules, he's gone," I don't think anyone would've said boo.

I'm sure in the 336 page Survivor contract they sign, they can kick you out for all sorts of reasons. Instead, they treated it like Dan was entitled to a defense. Instead, it was all, "we must get BOTH SIDES." And their solution was going to the women and saying "So. Did this happen? Are you uncomfortable? Huh? Huh? Are you? Huh?" So, OF COURSE they said "No, no, of course not, no, I didn't mean to cause any trouble, sorry."

I think Missy and Elizabeth did what women do, which is minimize it and pretend it didn't happen. That's on the show, not them. The producers and Dan are the only ones to blame here.

Because the minute they decided that they needed to hear "both sides," the women were screwed. Because that's the system. It can't be just a woman saying she's uncomfortable. No, the guy must've had intent to harass. And if he didn't have intent, then it's the woman's problem, right? Then it's a "he said, she said" and well, we can't hurt a guy's feelings. Think of his reputation! That's what's most important here. The reputation of an "innocent" man.

Now Kellee looks like a crazy person, Missy and Elizabeth look like conniving bitches, Janet looks like a chump, the other men look like enablers and Dan ... well, he's still here, isn't he?

Survivor, you wanted to mirror today's society? You got it.

Dan looks the worse of them all. His life is pretty ruined. ANd the show didn't need to hear both sides as they have cameras filming every second so they SEE it all. So why they didn't just boot him and be done. They didn't for the RATINGS! Only. And that is disgusting.

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8 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Jeff Probst addresses tonights episode.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/11/13/survivor-jeff-probst-island-of-the-idols-epsiode-kellee-dan

 But as Missy and Elizabeth embellished their stories about the situation, it put Dan in an unfair light and further complicated everything. Now the story has taken on a life of its own with several conflicting perspectives.

Hmmmmm??????

Edited by Lamima
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4 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I am beyond pissed. These people make Dan Foley and Jeff Varner look less reprehensible. Not good but less shitty. There is no saving Will.

fuck Missy. She was uncomfortable. She described how Dan touched her and how it was creepy. We saw him stroking her leg. She changed her story when confronted by Janet for game reasons. No. Just no. 

Fuck Elisabeth. She lied about being uncomfortable as a strategy. As a fucking strategy. She screwed over every person, regardless of gender, by strategizing harassment. She is the poster child example for every harasser out there. Fuck her. I hope she loses her medals for violating the athletes creed but I doubt that will happen.

Fuck Dan. He has grabby and hands and inappropriate. He is pervy and an asshole. 

Fuck Aaron and his bullshit logic. They didn’t tell me so it didn’t happen.

Thank God for Janet and Jamal who did and said what needed to be said.

ah, and Fuck Production for not pulling Dan.

The whole Varner thing still bugs me.  Not in anyway saying that what he did wasn't reprehensible, but something always felt weird about that.  Dan and Will I got nothing for, they are creepy and bullies. 

What made me feel sleazy about Elizabeth was when she said, as we saw her talking to the girls about Dan, is that she was going to use this informaton to further her game play and see if it could give her a numbers advantage.  I mean, really?  People are pouring their hearts out to you, and you just pretend to go along with it.  There's people online saying Elizabeth should be stripped of her medals and have nothing to do with Team USA in the future, and that even Tommy should lose his job as a teacher (though it seems the wrath is mainly directed at Missy, Elizabeth, and Dan, along with Aaron and Lauren).

I'm so glad Jamal put Aaron in his place.  I'm sad he was eliminated, but what a way to go.  And looking at Aaron's twitter, either he hasn't seen the show tonight or really doesn't care.  I'm going to guess that they will all likely have to consult with production before speaking out and blaming the editing.  

Edited by LadyChatts
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Dan is a talent manager? Casting couch?

Can’t believe I was rooting for Missy. I hope she feels complete shame and humiliation watching this back.

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11 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Jeff Probst addresses tonights episode.

Great, Jeff. I get that every one of the players only has limited knowledge, unlike the audience, who gets the bigger picture.

But, I dunno, it's hard to take things seriously when Elizabeth has heard from the women about Dan's behaviour. It's hard to take this answer seriously when MISSY has first hand experience and even went to Elizabeth to tell her to play it up. It's hard to feel bad for Dan when he gets to TC and chastizes Jeff for "not letting this go". I'll admit I did feel temporarily bad for him during the Janet, Missy, and Elizabeth segment, when I thought that maybe he genuinely didn't know, but now I feel disgusted for feeling bad for him for even a moment. And I feel stupid for believing it for even a second.

Jamal went out on a high note tonight, so there's that. He was one of the guys this season that people didn't like, but this one episode really helped him gain some traction back, especially compared to every single other person.

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Just now, Lady Calypso said:

Great, Jeff. I get that every one of the players only has limited knowledge, unlike the audience, who gets the bigger picture.

But, I dunno, it's hard to take things seriously when Elizabeth has heard from the women about Dan's behaviour. It's hard to take this answer seriously when MISSY has first hand experience and even went to Elizabeth to tell her to play it up. It's hard to feel bad for Dan when he gets to TC and chastizes Jeff for "not letting this go". I'll admit I did feel temporarily bad for him during the Janet, Missy, and Elizabeth segment, when I thought that maybe he genuinely didn't know, but now I feel disgusted for feeling bad for him for even a moment. And I feel stupid for believing it for even a second.

Jamal went out on a high note tonight, so there's that. He was one of the guys this season that people didn't like, but this one episode really helped him gain some traction back, especially compared to every single other person.

Yes but this only happened AFTER Missy found out that Kellee was conspiring against her and that all the Vokais were planning on voting her out. From her perspective she probably felt that Kellee was manipulating her when they had that long conversation on the beach. It is a complicated situation where you don't know who is being sincere and who is playing you. I think that is what Jeff is trying to say

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I wonder if the reason they didn't boot Dan is that Kellee wouldn't flat out say, yes I want him gone.  They had no problem kicking out Richard Hatch (he left on his own but you know that they told him to go) but Sue was very vocal in wanting him gone.

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12 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Dan looks the worse of them all. His life is pretty ruined. ANd the show didn't need to hear both sides as they have cameras filming every second so they SEE it all. So why they didn't just boot him and be done. They didn't for the RATINGS! Only. And that is disgusting.

It was all set up until Kellee failed to play one of her TWO IDOLS.

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Just now, meatball77 said:

I wonder if the reason they didn't boot Dan is that Kellee wouldn't flat out say, yes I want him gone.  They had no problem kicking out Richard Hatch (he left on his own but you know that they told him to go) but Sue was very vocal in wanting him gone.

I feel like this might have been the case.  It said they met with everyone, and we saw the producer talking with Kellee during her TH (have we ever seen that happen before?)  So my guess is no one would say they wanted Dan removed, which is why he got a warning.  

I really can't wait to see the aftermath next week.  I hope they don't ignore what went down tonight.  I want to see post-TC reactions.

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59 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

The only good thing besides Janet:  We got to see it all go down.  I would love to see Elizabitch’s face when she sees the episode and realizes that her friends, family and coworkers have seen what she did.  Ditto Dan and Missy and all the other assholes on the show.   

Another thing that occurred to me is that Elizabeth and especially Missy probably had a decent shot of being invited back for a second chances season.  Now they will be Survivor outcasts.

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1 minute ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

As a woman and a rape survivor the whole notion that “well that wasn’t my intent” or “is it really wrong because he’s touchy feely” really just rubs me deep in my gut. Here is the bottom line, Kellee told Dan no multiple times, she told him to stop multiple times and he didn’t respect her.  That’s enough.  Point blank.  When someone tells you no or stop and you don’t listen to them, you have crossed the line.  
 

This is why Dan should not have had a warning - he should have been removed.  They fucked it up with Richard Hatch years ago with Sue and they’re doing it all over again.  It’s reprehensible 

But he knows women.  He works with them.  He even knows about the me too movement 🙄

He obviously feels it's all about intent and all about him.  He didn't mean it in that way so his behavior wasn't wrong at all.  However he was told that he made her uncomfortable and he still couldn't keep his hands to himself.  He's gross and no amount of "knowing women" makes that less true.

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4 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Yes but this only happened AFTER Missy found out that Kellee was conspiring against her and that all the Vokais were planning on voting her out. From her perspective she probably felt that Kellee was manipulating her when they had that long conversation on the beach. It is a complicated situation where you don't know who is being sincere and who is playing you. I think that is what Jeff is trying to say

Which is why, out of Dan, Elizabeth and Missy, I'm upset with Missy the least. I can understand her reasoning. Part of me can even sympathize with her. In that particular moment, I get why she may have done what she did to get Kellee out. But it still makes me upset that Missy couldn't jump in to defend Janet at any point when Missy knew the truth by TC. I'm more upset with Missy for the last half of the episode, more so than the first half. 

Elizabeth, however? Still a piece of shit human being. Her and Aaron need to get off my screen, along with Dan.

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1 minute ago, LadyChatts said:

I feel like this might have been the case.  It said they met with everyone, and we saw the producer talking with Kellee during her TH (have we ever seen that happen before?)  So my guess is no one would say they wanted Dan removed, which is why he got a warning.  

I really can't wait to see the aftermath next week.  I hope they don't ignore what went down tonight.  I want to see post-TC reactions.

I think the problem with that is unfortunately it puts Kellee in an awkward position.  I can see why she would say no, even if she doesn't feel comfortable.  If she says yes, it will be perceived as Kellee is using this as strategy or manipulation to get Dan out.  

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1 hour ago, KaveDweller said:

I think part of that was the producers and CBS covering themselves. They showed the producer talking to Kellee and they put in the description so that we know they did something to address the complaints. And it sounds like they did all the right things, but they wanted us to know that so we can't say, "why didn't a producer step in? why didn't anyone talk to Dan?" etc. Cause we probably would be saying that otherwise.

They definitely also showed footage to confirm Kellee's story, but they also showed Elizabeth saying several times how she was never uncomfortable with Dan and was just using it for gameplay. Missy didn't really have as clear a story.

I agree 100%. If production had erased or ignored the whole story they would have been attacked as well. Whatever they did, they were going to have lots of viewers saying they didn't handle things correctly. 

I think they did an excellent job of showing how incredibly messy, confusing and opposite-of-black-and-white these situations can be, both on Survivor and in the real world. That's why I found this episode so fascinating... you didn't have clearcut villains and heroes.(ETA I can hear people screaming that Dan was a clearcut villain, but I can guarantee not everyone thinks that. Hence the messiness and division. Like IRL.) 

Well, except for Janet. It was hard not to root for her all the way after what she did. She was like the leading runner who stops a few feet from the end of the race to help an injured runner, only to have the injured runner leap up laughing and beat her across the finish line. (Although to be fair, Missy wasn't laughing.) 

Edited by Melina22
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1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

Which is why, out of Dan, Elizabeth and Missy, I'm upset with Missy the least. I can understand her reasoning. Part of me can even sympathize with her. In that particular moment, I get why she may have done what she did to get Kellee out. But it still makes me upset that Missy couldn't jump in to defend Janet at any point when Missy knew the truth by TC. I'm more upset with Missy for the last half of the episode, more so than the first half. 

Elizabeth, however? Still a piece of shit human being. Her and Aaron need to get off my screen, along with Dan.

Yes.  I’m torn on Missy. I was looking at her face the entire time during TC and she looked like she just wanted to leave.  If anybody looked guilty it was her.   She knew that what she had said to Kellee was the truth.  
 

The worst part for me was when Missy and Elizabeth told Dan they would still want to sleep with him in the bungalow.  It made me sick.  I guess though I see Elizabeth as the Regina George and Missy as her little follower.

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