S01.E03: Remember It Was Me

[Ohwell]

The man just looks dirty.  Slovenly.  Sure, he's somewhat nice-looking but I wouldn't want to sleep with him.  

[Gem 10]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

If Debra has so much money, she needs to hire a bodyguard.  I would love for John to make a move on her and have the bodyguard blast him.

How much money could she have left?  She’s already about $165,000 in the hole.  $83 or so for the beach house and about $85,000 in the bag she had in the house.

[Ohwell]

3 minutes ago, Gem 10 said:

How much money could she have left?  She’s already about $165,000 in the hole.  $83 or so for the beach house and about $85,000 in the bag she had in the house.

If she can afford to have $85k, oh, just lying around the house in case of emergency, I was thinking she had even more money in the bank. 

[Gem 10]

10 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

If she can afford to have $85k, oh, just lying around the house in case of emergency, I was thinking she had even more money in the bank. 

You’re probably right.  Also, I think I remember him taking or combining her money with his and putting it who knows where.

[absolutelyido]

18 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

How shitty are John's friends? They knew he was a disaster. You would think there would have been an opportunity to drop more than vague hints that John was a lying scam artist dirtbag. I feel like there are really only three ways to play that situation: 1. don't go to wedding; 2. go, but don't mince words about him being garbage; or 3.go and not say anything. I personally would feel awful about option 3 regardless of how it turned out.

No kidding. All of his groomsmen seemed to know what a slimeball he was. Not one of them took Tania aside and told her?

I'm not clear on how, exactly, the doctor knew that John had an opiod addiction when he was in the hospital. Was it because he said he needed more pain medication because his tolerance was high, or was his ailment a direct result of the opiods? I didn't quite get what was wrong with him.

I haven't listened to the podcast or seen the Dateline episode so I don't know what happens next. But, if John is smart, he'll show up on the door step of Debra's Mom. Based on what we have seen, she'd probably take him in and scold Debra for throwing him out, even if she knew his full story.

[QuinnM]

Just now, absolutelyido said:

I'm not clear on how, exactly, the doctor knew that John had an opiod addiction when he was in the hospital. Was it because he said he needed more pain medication because his tolerance was high, or was his ailment a direct result of the opiods? I didn't quite get what was wrong with him.

She mentioned a blood test as well.  It is common to do a drug screening anytime pain is involved.  In fact, if you are going to be a caregiver to someone that will need opioids many hospitals also require a blood test from you before the patient can be discharged to your care.  Yup, that’s the world we live in.

[Showthyme]

It surprises me that John could corral enough friends to be at his wedding. 

[Kdawg82]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

As long as you aren't in the middle of an action/case where time is of the essence, your lawyer can refuse to continue to represent you. (They can do it when time is of the essence like in the middle of a case, but the court has to sign off on it.)  Debra's lawyer gave her the lowdown dirt on dirty John and fulfilled that task

Thanks! Yes this is what I was getting at. Like where is the line drawn in the sand? She has a lawyer & asked for assistance. Then lawyer uncovered info about the man and was like "peace! I'm out!" So I wondered is that ethical and where is the end of assigned task defined? I understand not taking on a new client for certain reasons and limitations but if I had a family lawyer for 20 years who all of a sudden bounced on me when I needed him/her most, I feel like I'd be stunned. 

[breezy424]

Just watched the episode tonight.  God.  This woman is so stupid.  Yeah, I know there are women out there (and men) who ignore the obvious because they're desperate to have someone but geez.   At least,  I don't think the daughter is ever going to make the same mistakes as her mother.

When I watch this series I sit silently screaming at the TV.

At least the ex wife finally kicked him out.  They had two kids together so I can sort of understand her staying after she found out about the affair.   

[Aethera]

Folks, if you see something that you think is a spoiler in an episode thread, report it, don't comment about it in the thread. The lead mods on this show have listened to the podcast, and are evaluating possible spoilers on a case by case basis, though we both work and it may take us a couple of hours to see things, so reports help!  To clarify some things:

• Please, when in doubt, use spoiler tags. Better that people click into a spoiler tag and think "well that wasn't really a spoiler" than be spoiled on something.
• Just because someone has listened to the podcast doesn't mean they can't engage in general speculation, particularly as some people may have listened to it a year ago and may not remember a lot about the story.
• If the show changes the way something happens (so let's say on the Podcast someone named Susan runs a red light and gets pulled over by a cop and they start dating, but on the TV Show, instead she jaywalks and gets stopped by a cop and they start dating) it's not a spoiler to say "well actually in real life she ran a red light". It's a change, not something that's going to be revealed later in the series. And yes, I just made that up, it has nothing to do with the show at all.

If you have questions, please contact Door County Cherry and/or myself, and we'll answer as soon as we can! 

[Door County Cherry]

13 hours ago, QuinnM said:

Veronica, for all her self absorbed nonsense, what a champ when her mother needed her support.  So she gets a bit of a pass from me at this point.  She is fiercely in her mother's corner even when it's difficult.

If Veronica is anything like Debra was when she was young, I can see how Debra had so much success.  Veronica, at least in this show, has her flaws but at least she seems smart and fierce.  

3 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

Then lawyer uncovered info about the man and was like "peace! I'm out!" So I wondered is that ethical and where is the end of assigned task defined?

Yes, I think so because, at that time, Debra didn't ask her to do anything else.  She didn't ask her to start divorce proceedings or even annulment I don't believe. But just because Debra didn't do her due diligence before marrying John doesn't mean her lawyer has to stick around for the hassle trying to get John out of her client's life would create. BTW, I loved how Connie reacted when Veronica said she hoped she got a prenup. 

[QQQQ]

On 12/9/2018 at 11:49 PM, HunterHunted said:

Debra with the private detective played by Judy Reyes was all you needed to know about how Debra ended up in this mess. Debra finds out about the drugs, jail and prison stints, lost licenses, threats and restraining orders and she's like blink blink "what should I do?" blink blink. This isn't a trick or rhetorical question. This is a pretty freaking easy question. If you saw a multiple choice answer that looked like the choice you knew Debra would have picked if there hadn't been anyone there reflecting their judgment on her you would think someone was punking you. Debra is just lucky it was Judy Reyes as the PI because Quiet Ann would have picked up her bat, jumped in her van, and beat the shit out of John.

 

Except it's anything but an easy answer. Statistically speaking, the most dangerous time for a person in an abusive relationship is when they leave. 75% of domestic violence related homicides occur upon separation and there is a 75% increase of violence upon separation for at least two years. Not that Debra is likely to have known this information, but I saw her "What should I do?" as more "I'm in over my head here..." vs. "But he's my true love!" This might be giving her too much credit, but in most cases physically leaving is neither simple nor easy. 

[Empress1]

12 hours ago, Showthyme said:

It surprises me that John could corral enough friends to be at his wedding. 

Or be in it. Being a bridesmaid is expensive and kind of a pain. I definitely wouldn't do it for someone I didn't actually like, as John's groomsmen seemed to be doing.

[Starlight925]

13 hours ago, Showthyme said:

It surprises me that John could corral enough friends to be at his wedding. 

True!  Although most of these guys were probably in it just for the party and free booze.

I listened to, and loved, the podcast, so I won't post any (more! sorry!) spoilers.  All I can say is, even though I know the story, I'm riveted by the portrayal, this episode especially.

The way Tonia finds his syringes, hidden in the toy oven, is chilling.

You have to wonder if she had any inkling during their marriage and the births of their kids, did she have any idea he was this horrible character, both stealing drugs from patients and having an affair?  I mean, did he just switch his personality on and off so easily, so suddenly?  I guess that's the mind of a true psychopath.  Chilling.

[preeya]

20 minutes ago, Sterling said:

I listened to, and loved, the podcast, so I won't post any (more! sorry!) spoilers.  All I can say is, even though I know the story, I'm riveted by the portrayal, this episode especially.

@Sterling Since you've listened to the podcast and are also watching the Bravo production, could/would you point out the liberties the producers have taken with the true facts in the television production. I've read on some other sites that there is quite a bit of elaboration within the production. I realize this is not a documentary but it is a real-life story.

[Eliot]

On 12/10/2018 at 2:45 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This is why I wish more people would read The Gift of Fear - trust your instincts! When Debra snuck into her own office to look at John's papers and her reaction was to take pictures of everything and then go straight to her lawyer, I was cheering. I was so relieved when she took advantage of John being in the hospital to move out of the house. If only she had stayed on that track! Since this is only the third episode, I know they aren't going to stay apart but it was nice to see her get the fuck away from him.

Poor Tonia. When she confronted John with Maggie's name, his reaction was, "Okay, you want to get into this right now?" as if she were the one in the wrong picking a fight with him.

I was trying to figure out when John and Tonia's wedding was supposed to take place. Based on her dress and the floppy bangs of one of the groomsmen, I was guessing the 80s. Unchained Melody was around long before then but it became really popular because of Ghost.

I recommended that book on a previous thread - glad to see I'm not the only one who swears by it!

Here's what I'll say in Debra's "defense" (because I do kinda think she is an idiot; and, honestly, I think Connie Britton plays her smarter than the real Debra was): When you're involved with someone who scams you on such a fundamental, ongoing level it's really, really difficult to adjust your mindset. One of my best friends, who is smart, attractive, and capable in every other aspect of her life, fell in with a guy like that. Even when he was horrific to her, verbally abusive, stalk-y, etc., she continued to rationalize his behavior: "He's just so damaged because of his crazy ex wife who cheated on him and kept his children away from him!" She was just mentally and emotionally unable to flip the scenario to understand that the "crazy ex wife" was the sane one and keeping the kids away was in their best interests."

Quote

Well, she had two kids with him. I don't agree with her choice but I can see where she would have made that decision. It's easier to raise kids with someone than on your own. I think a lot of women fall into that. I think when the other nurse laid it on the line and pointed out that she could lose literally everything if the drug use came out - I think that's when she realized she needed to get out. She could lose her job. She could lose her kids. She could lose everything. I think she was willing to lose some self-respect and stick with a cheater but she wasn't going to lose everything for him. 

If only people who stay in bad relationships would understand that "staying for the kids," often means exposing them to patterns of behavior they'll come to expect as normal and repeat in adult life. I so often hear people excuse being treated badly by a partner because, "He's a good father." Um, no, a "good father" doesn't disrespect the mother of his children in front of said children.

Quote

The PI left out one thing.  She should have told her to buy a gun and learn how to use it.  

Debra's the last person in the world who should own a gun. I can see the confrontation now:

Debra (shakily pointing gun at John): Don't come any closer or I'll shoot!

John (still advancing): Come on, Debra, I love you. Give me the gun.

Debra: Oh, okay, if you really mean it. (hands gun to John)

John (shoots Debra): Idiot.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Eliot

[Starlight925]

35 minutes ago, preeya said:

@Sterling Since you've listened to the podcast and are also watching the Bravo production, could/would you point out the liberties the producers have taken with the true facts in the television production. I've read on some other sites that there is quite a bit of elaboration within the production. I realize this is not a documentary but it is a real-life story.

Without posting spoilers on this thread, the show is portraying the real story amazingly accurately.

Down to the conversation John was having on the phone with his ex wife, warning her....that was verbatim actually.

The wedding toast was verbatim as well, as they have the wedding on videotape.  Exactly what was said, how it was said, etc., was specifically accurate.  They played the videotape (obviously the audio) on the podcast, and they portrayed the wedding exactly.

A couple of "liberties" I've noticed, not spoilers but I'll use the tag anyway:

Spoiler

--As to how Tonia figured out John was cheating, I do find it amazingly coincidental that she just happened to be at a lecture, and she happened to talk to the neurosurgeon who gave the lecture, and she happened to get into a personal conversation.  IRL, that never happens to any one of us.

--In Episode 2, when Debra happened to meet a doctor at a hospital, and she mentioned that her husband was an anesthesiologist, and the doctor said, "Oh, I've never heard of him", I mean come on.  These hospitals are enormous.  Are we supposed to believe every single doctor knows every other doctor?

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Sterling

[Empress1]

22 minutes ago, Eliot said:

If only people who stay in bad relationships would understand that "staying for the kids," often means exposing them to patterns of behavior they'll come to expect as normal and repeat in adult life. I so often hear people excuse being treated badly by a partner because, "He's a good father." Um, no, a "good father" doesn't disrespect the mother of his children in front of said children.

I know a lot of children of divorce who say they wish their parents had split up sooner because they made the entire family miserable. And when kids know their parents are staying together for them even though they're unhappy, they can internalize that and believe that THEY are making the parents unhappy. I had a friend in college whose parents stayed together until she left home, fighting every day, and it really fucked her up.

56 minutes ago, Sterling said:

You have to wonder if she had any inkling during their marriage and the births of their kids, did she have any idea he was this horrible character, both stealing drugs from patients and having an affair?

I doubt it. I've been surprised by the number of people I know who either had affairs or whose partners had affairs (I'm using the term "affair" loosely to mean everything from "prolonged in-love relationship with another person" to "one-night stand.") (There was a really fascinating thread on Twitter around Thanksgiving that was people telling the family secrets they learned around Thanksgiving. There were a LOT of secret families.) John traveled a lot; it would be (and was!) very easy for him to sleep around. And as the nurse pointed out, the way John was stealing the drugs was slick - she was clear that he had to have been doing it for a long time in order to be that good at it.

[Starlight925]

1 minute ago, Empress1 said:

And as the nurse pointed out, the way John was stealing the drugs was slick - she was clear that he had to have been doing it for a long time in order to be that good at it.

So true.  The way he said the patients had pain level 10, while they were barely conscious, so he could include that in his chart, and thus prescribe the maximum, and then just slip it into his pocket like that, while giving them saline, showed that he had been doing that for a long time.

The fact that he showed zero empathy for these patients, whose pain levels were astronomical once they woke up, never mind that he could have killed them, is unbelievable.

[vmcd88]

I wonder if the reason he got married was because he needed someone to recommend him for anesthesia school or his wife was providing a character reference for with what looked like a school administrator.  I wouldnt be surprised if he purposely hung out at that particular bar in the hopes of meeting a nurse or doctor.  

[Lovecat]

15 hours ago, absolutelyido said:

I'm not clear on how, exactly, the doctor knew that John had an opiod addiction when he was in the hospital. Was it because he said he needed more pain medication because his tolerance was high, or was his ailment a direct result of the opiods? I didn't quite get what was wrong with him.

Constipation is a side effect of opiod use, and that can lead to a bowel obstruction, which is what he was hospitalized for.  That, coupled with his demand for a higher dose of Dilaudid probably set the doctor's spidey-sense a-tinglin'.  

[MaggieG]

Connie Britton is doing an amazing job because I seriously want to slap Debra

[Barb23]

16 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Maybe his buddies thought that John had found his "true love" and would turn his life around and stop being a con, so that's why they didn't say anything.  They didn't want to screw up a relationship.  We heard from that one guy, but I'm not sure that all of the guys knew just how bad John was, or knew every bad thing he did. 

I was thinking the same thing but then I remembered how Tonia remembered the Dirty or Filthy John comment at their wedding  (from the Dateline interview. ) I hope I remembered correctly. 

 Tonia said on Dateline that in looking  back at the wedding,  only one or a few of his friends made a reference to him being Dirty or Filthy John .  She made it sound like it was a one time thing & that it was said in passing & wasn't the entire topic of conversation at the wedding like it was shown on the show.   At the time she didn't know what they were talking about. It seems like she forgot about the Dirty or Filthy John comment but realized later how he got his nick name as his con man ways came out & were exposed. 

Regarding John's illness.  I finally figured out what the doctor called it - Paryletic Ileus (? Spelling).  I googled it & it is basically a blockage of the intestine.  One of the big side affects of opioid pain meds is they cause constipation.  (I take pain med because of my rheumatoid arthritis so I know first hand.)  He had to be really backed up by the  amount and strength of drugs he did.  Thus causing his blockage. Remember he said he had an upset stomach & was making himself tea when Debra came home the one time.

I really liked how Veronica stood by her mother & helped with the move out.  She could have  been saying "I told you so" over & over but I don't think she did or else we didn't see it. 

It's hard to tell by the previews & I don't know how or if they will portray it but wouldn't we all love to see John's expression if he went home by himself thinking everything was fine & walking into their empty house? 

@Lovecat  I didn't realize you posted the same info about the blockage when I was typing mine :)

Edited December 11, 2018 by Barb23

[Starlight925]

As for how stupid Debra is, believe me, I get it.

It's unbelievable to me how these smart women can get so conned, all for some sweet words or affection.

On this episode, when John admitted that the neurosurgeon would be a financial upgrade from Tonia, it made my blood boil.  

He was always looking for a con.

The fact that he had such little empathy, even as far back as college, that he'd put out "Lawn care/Roofing" cards, and take money from senior citizens, is beyond heinous.  

Edited December 11, 2018 by Sterling

[CruiseDiva]

2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I know a lot of children of divorce who say they wish their parents had split up sooner because they made the entire family miserable. 

I was relieved when my parents finally split up. Trust me, it's better being from a "broken home" than living in one.

[Aethera]

Folks, let's take discussion of our own stories to Small Talk, please.

[Starlight925]

30 minutes ago, Aethera said:

Folks, let's take discussion of our own stories to Small Talk, please.

Done!  Thanks for the reminder!  :)

[Neurochick]

On 12/10/2018 at 9:35 AM, teddysmom said:

I guess it's true, be a white guy with a great con, you can get away with anything. 

And there you have it.  John is nothing more than a garden variety dope fiend.  The things he does are what dope fiends do.  I've heard guys in 12 step meetings talk about all the shitty things they did to get drugs, where they were using.  A dope fiend would do anything, con anybody, sell their own child for a fix.  John gets away with it because he's a good looking, intelligent, well spoken white man.  People don't look at him and think,  "dope fiend."

[Thalia]

On 12/10/2018 at 9:47 AM, Amy Beth said:

I still can’t figure out why he married the first wife. 

I haven't listened to the podcast, but

Spoiler

I read last night that she was already a nurse when they married, and she helped him get into nursing school.  Or something like that.  Anyhow, she could have been a way of getting easy access to drugs. 

[HunterHunted]

On 12/10/2018 at 6:00 PM, Ohwell said:

Maybe his buddies thought that John had found his "true love" and would turn his life around and stop being a con, so that's why they didn't say anything.  They didn't want to screw up a relationship.  We heard from that one guy, but I'm not sure that all of the guys knew just how bad John was, or knew every bad thing he did. 

9 hours ago, Barb23 said:

I was thinking the same thing but then I remembered how Tonia remembered the Dirty or Filthy John comment at their wedding  (from the Dateline interview. ) I hope I remembered correctly. 

 Tonia said on Dateline that in looking  back at the wedding,  only one or a few of his friends made a reference to him being Dirty or Filthy John .  She made it sound like it was a one time thing & that it was said in passing & wasn't the entire topic of conversation at the wedding like it was shown on the show.   At the time she didn't know what they were talking about. It seems like she forgot about the Dirty or Filthy John comment but realized later how he got his nick name as his con man ways came out & were exposed.

 

I guess, but how often does that truly happen? In my experience when people are turning over a new leaf, they often communicate that with their romantic partners, their friends and family. That story of repentance and reform often becomes part of the couple's love and relationship narrative. You'll hear the person who has become better talk about how the other person "taught them what love is," "taught them to love themselves," "made them want to be a better person," or "represented someone actually worth changing for." I'm not saying that they are successful in actually becoming a better person, but when they are at least a little bit sincere they tend to communicate that sentiment. The fact that Tonia was clueless about his past, hadn't met his friends prior to the wedding, and clearly hadn't met his family should have been a sign to Tonia and John's garbage friends that something wasn't on the up and up. And that's not saying that couples are completely candid about their pasts, but the fact Tonia was completely clueless about his protracted period pulling scams and when the topic seemed to be steering in that direction, John would redirect it with a complete falsehood. That should have really given those friends some pause.

But maybe his friends calling him Dirty John during the toast and on the wedding video was their attempt to out John's past dirty deeds because they didn't know Tonia well enough to just come out and say it. It might have been a very WASPy way to deal with the predicament.

[SimonSeymour]

On 12/10/2018 at 7:30 PM, Kdawg82 said:

Thanks! Yes this is what I was getting at. Like where is the line drawn in the sand? She has a lawyer & asked for assistance. Then lawyer uncovered info about the man and was like "peace! I'm out!" So I wondered is that ethical and where is the end of assigned task defined? I understand not taking on a new client for certain reasons and limitations but if I had a family lawyer for 20 years who all of a sudden bounced on me when I needed him/her most, I feel like I'd be stunned. 

Most lawyers can decline to take a case (or withdraw from one they’ve already taken) for almost any reason at all. Usually the only time they can’t withdraw is in the middle of trial, or days before the trial is about to start. Examples of why an attorney would decline a case: It’s not her practice area (you wouldn’t go to PI lawyer for a divorce), the attorney has a conflict of interest, she doesn’t want to deal with a client who it seems will be difficult to work with, etc.

Examples of why an attorney would withdraw: The client stops paying, there is a breakdown in communication between the client and the lawyer, a conflict arises, etc.

Really the only time a lawyer can’t withdraw is when they are appointed to represent an indignant person charged with a crime. But even then, there are a few exceptions. 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

That Lawyer was scared.

If he was bold enough to stalk/terrorize two female cops, John would definitely do the same to her.

Think that was more a  deal breaker than being sued.

[itsadryheat]

"a very WASPy way to deal with the predicament."

cowardly

[Madding crowd]

I know the whole story and I get they are going for accuracy, but Debra has little dialogue besides saying "I don't know" or shrugging her shoulders. It just doesn't make for good TV. In the little we saw of Tania, I felt like I know her much more than I know or understand Debra. I was surprised to see John had friends stand up to his wedding, but then I figured he probably doesn't even know them well and just found them to erase suspicion that he was friendless. 

As someone who has had a number of surgeries, it made he furious that he is letting people suffer for his pleasure at getting high. Do Anesthesia nurses actually prescribe dosages of medicine? I have only had the anesthesiologist meet me in the operating room or right before and then the regular doctors prescribe the pain meds with the regular nurses giving it me after the operation. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Madding crowd
Spelling

[Joimiaroxeu]

Wow, that sh!t-eating grin John had at his wedding.

A text alert for accessing a safety deposit box. Do banks really do that or was that John's way trying to keep a noose around Debra while he stole her money?

At least Debra realized John getting hospitalized opened a window of opportunity for her to escape. By the look on his face at the hospital he realized it too. He'll probably leave as soon as he can abscond with enough drugs.

Quote

It surprises me that John could corral enough friends to be at his wedding.  

A lot of them might've been scared not to go.

Quote

John is nothing more than a garden variety dope fiend.  The things he does are what dope fiends do.  I've heard guys in 12 step meetings talk about all the shitty things they did to get drugs, where they were using.  A dope fiend would do anything, con anybody, sell their own child for a fix.  John gets away with it because he's a good looking, intelligent, well spoken white man.  People don't look at him and think,  "dope fiend."

Functional alcoholics can operate like this too. I think it's probably an addict thing in general, not just White male dope fiends.

[gotta watch]

As for how John rounded up enough "friends" to be at his wedding, I noticed the best man said he had only known John for 3-4 years. 

And the one friend of John who spilled the beans to Tania made me furious. Before/After every horrible story about John he chuckled! Like he was saying "THAT SCAMP!"

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Functional alcoholics can operate like this too. I think it's probably an addict thing in general, not just White male dope fiends.

Definitely, my point was that because of his appearance, no one took him for a dope fiend.  The same would be if he were an alcoholic.  

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Just realized that's Sprague Grayden as Tania.

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 6:06 AM, Empress1 said:

Or be in it. Being a bridesmaid is expensive and kind of a pain. I definitely wouldn't do it for someone I didn't actually like, as John's groomsmen seemed to be doing.

Well, if his behavior at the diner with Tonia was any indication, his friends seemed to be douchebags as well.

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 7:00 AM, preeya said:

@Sterling Since you've listened to the podcast and are also watching the Bravo production, could/would you point out the liberties the producers have taken with the true facts in the television production. I've read on some other sites that there is quite a bit of elaboration within the production. I realize this is not a documentary but it is a real-life story.

I don't know if this has been answered yet, but I listened to the podcast (I highly recommend it.)  The show, so far, has been pretty honest with it's portrayal.  Other than changing Veronica's name (her real name is Jaqueline) the actresses seem to be nailing the daughters' behavior pretty well.   The only major difference I've noticed is Tonia didn't meet John's mistress in that context.  That was dramatized.  The message we hear him leave Tonia at the end of the episode, however?  That was verbatim.  They actually played the message on the podcast.  It really is chilling.

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 1:54 PM, Neurochick said:

Definitely, my point was that because of his appearance, no one took him for a dope fiend.  The same would be if he were an alcoholic.  

I mean, you've got to give the guy some credit beyond the color of his skin, he was a master manipulator.  I'm a public defender, I represent plenty of addicts.  The white ones are no better than anyone else in scamming people by virtue of their skin color alone.  A tweaker is a tweaker.  John had spent his entire life learning how to con people.  Did being a white male help him?  Probably, same as being a male helped him.  But his success in scamming people for decades goes well beyond those factors alone.

Edited December 16, 2018 by lezlers

[Showthyme]

The podcast is definitely worth a listen. Bravo is doing a good job of bringing the story to screen. It seems that everyone was alarmed but Debra and her mother. Women like Debra do not want to take any responsibility and simply say that,, "I didn't know" or they just claim to believe someone because they want to see the best in people. Puleese. I want to know the story behind Debra's other divorces. She has assets. Did she acquire all of her money on her own of did she get some in one of the divorces? Did she have to give up any money? Just because Debra is an accomplished women doesn't mean that she did it all on her own. Or, she may have. 

I just hated the scene where her daughter is crying because Debra betrayed her by bringing John to the party. Debra is a woman that you just want to shake. 

[AmandaPanda]

On 12/10/2018 at 9:41 AM, Kdawg82 said:

I was unaware that lawyers could totally wash their hands of you based on the history of such an individual. That's crazy to me! She can't even get legal representation now?! What a bastard.  

What I think happened was Debra had probably paid the lawyer to do some digging and find out more information. Going to trial or doing anything further was going to require more money. When the lawyer saw what happened, she was completely out. I just wish she had given Debra some information on another lawyer who might be willing to take on the case. 

On 12/11/2018 at 4:54 AM, QQQQ said:

Except it's anything but an easy answer. Statistically speaking, the most dangerous time for a person in an abusive relationship is when they leave. 75% of domestic violence related homicides occur upon separation and there is a 75% increase of violence upon separation for at least two years. Not that Debra is likely to have known this information, but I saw her "What should I do?" as more "I'm in over my head here..." vs. "But he's my true love!" This might be giving her too much credit, but in most cases physically leaving is neither simple nor easy. 

The most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when the abused person tries to leave. When a person is trying to leave, it is eight times more likely the abuser will either try to kill them or will succeed in it. An order of protection is a great idea in theory, but it is just a piece of paper. It is sometimes hard to even get the police to respond to calls when an order of protection has been violated. I've seen so many cops treat people horribly when they try to report someone for violating an order of protection. They'll threaten to arrest the person who took out the order of protection saying they probably invited their abuser there. Everything I saw from Debra in that moment was that she was so overwhelmed and didn't know what to do first. Leaving an abusive relationship is so much easier said than done. 

On 12/11/2018 at 9:49 AM, vmcd88 said:

I wonder if the reason he got married was because he needed someone to recommend him for anesthesia school or his wife was providing a character reference for with what looked like a school administrator.  I wouldnt be surprised if he purposely hung out at that particular bar in the hopes of meeting a nurse or doctor.  

I think he mainly just used his wives as status symbols. A nurse is someone respectable and is someone he could use for easy access to drugs. From there, a doctor was someone he could exploit for money, especially one as accomplished as Maggie was. With Debra, she is a very wealthy businesswoman. All of these women were people he could easily prey upon. He knew exactly what he he was doing with all of them. 

On 12/13/2018 at 11:13 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

A text alert for accessing a safety deposit box. Do banks really do that or was that John's way trying to keep a noose around Debra while he stole her money?

It's definitely another way he could control Debra. He was probably already paranoid after he caught her reading his mail. One of the easiest ways abusers control their victims is by restricting their access to finances. He took her "safety money" and made sure she couldn't access it again without him knowing. 

[Pondlass1]

Is it Fentanyl he's supposed to be addicted to?  How is he able to even function? I watch Intervention and that's one of the worst drugs to be hooked on in terms of  day to day functioning, let alone managing all the cons and lies.

[Anela]

On 12/10/2018 at 7:38 AM, Empress1 said:

When John was like "What was I supposed to do, NOT cheat on you?" when his first wife confronted him, I snorted.

I gasped. It's just the way my mum's fiance acted. 

On 12/10/2018 at 11:10 AM, Ohwell said:

You know, while I was watching this episode last night I could feel my blood pressure rising and all I could think of was what a lowlife rat bastard piece of shit that man is.  

I felt so bad for Tanya.  At least Debra finally got a fucking clue.

Edit:  LOL, I was so pissed, I had to clean up my language a little bit @Empress1"  

This is why I put off watching it, but I kept hearing about it, so here I am.

The guy my mum was engaged to, somehow talked my very intelligent mother into opening a joint account with him. I will never understand why she did, but I don't understand anything about that relationship. When he brought her home from the hospital, after she had an abortion (he would go back and forth between begging her not to "kill their baby" and then tell her to go ahead and do it, that they couldn't handle another child right now, something like that), she was going crazy at that point, and was suicidal. So she talked to someone on a hotline, to get her through it, and to get her head straight enough to get us out of there. When he brought her home from the hospital, he took the money she had in her purse, and went out on a double date with his best friend. I don't know what his real name was, aside from the fact that mum thought it was Neville, which she found funny. He called himself Nick Dixon, and had two passports with different birthdays. WTF? 

He also had at least six other girlfriends, and one woman with money, left her husband and daughter for him. 

On 12/10/2018 at 7:00 PM, Ohwell said:

Maybe his buddies thought that John had found his "true love" and would turn his life around and stop being a con, so that's why they didn't say anything.  They didn't want to screw up a relationship.  We heard from that one guy, but I'm not sure that all of the guys knew just how bad John was, or knew every bad thing he did. 

Mum's fiance's best friend said that he liked her, and didn't understand why she was with him. He's the one who told her what I mentioned above: that he went out on a double date with him, the night he brought her home from the hospital. So this guy knew what he was, liked my mother, and told her this, but remained his friend??? 

[Anela]

Anyway, this episode was horrifying. His poor wife. She is finally terrified enough to do something to get him out of there, he moves out of State, and continues to threaten her. I don't believe that his friends believed anything good about that setup. I think they were just afraid to say anything. 

[Clanstarling]

On 12/9/2018 at 9:43 PM, raiderred1 said:

All I can say is he should've tried this shit on a Texas girl with a badass gun toting family. They would find Jimmy Hoffa loooog before they found creepy fucking John! Our woods are deep an quit swmpy in east Texas...just sayin. Oh, and the long lost saw mill wells are not on any maps. I'd have "Delores Claiborned" him.

Ah, but you wouldn't be the type he preyed on. Men like that look for weak, compliant women.

On 12/10/2018 at 5:30 PM, Kdawg82 said:

Thanks! Yes this is what I was getting at. Like where is the line drawn in the sand? She has a lawyer & asked for assistance. Then lawyer uncovered info about the man and was like "peace! I'm out!" So I wondered is that ethical and where is the end of assigned task defined? I understand not taking on a new client for certain reasons and limitations but if I had a family lawyer for 20 years who all of a sudden bounced on me when I needed him/her most, I feel like I'd be stunned. 

In this case, I think the lawyer was new to Debra, and as someone said previously, they weren't in the middle of legal proceedings (since Debra didn't file for annulment, as the lawyer had suggested in their first meeting).

There are a lot of lawyers out there, especially for the rich. So while it would be disconcerting and upsetting, it's not like Debra didn't have options.

People always say the survival instinct is fight or flight, but there's another one - freeze. Debra's clearly one who freezes.

[Armchair Critic]

I am way late posting on here but I wondered if he really ended up in the hospital like that, the timing seems too convenient so she could move out.

[Paloma]

On 12/10/2018 at 12:49 AM, HunterHunted said:

How shitty are John's friends? They knew he was a disaster. You would think there would have been an opportunity to drop more than vague hints that John was a lying scam artist dirtbag. I feel like there are really only three ways to play that situation: 1. don't go to wedding; 2. go, but don't mince words about him being garbage; or 3.go and not say anything. I personally would feel awful about option 3 regardless of how it turned out.

I haven't read all the comments on this episode yet, so someone else may have already said this, but I think these friends were shitty about the situation because of the Bro Code: https://www.drshawnandrews.com/blogs/bro-code-decoded#:~:text=In popular culture%2C the Bro,wife or direct family member).

Even if they personally liked Tonia, they were not her friends or family so felt no need to protect her or even be honest with her. 

If Tonia had female friends who knew about John, I'm sure one or more of them would have tried to talk to her about it and advise her not to marry him. And if the situation were reversed and his friends thought that Tonia was a scam artist and slept around with men, they would warn John. I'm not saying that all female friends will be protective of their friends or that all men put the Bro Code over protecting women they know, but over several decades of life I've seen these patterns play out among men and women.