S02.E01: A Father's Advice

[mansfolly]

Quote

-This show needs less Toby

Yep.

[Scarlett45]

23 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

But in that case she could have just had him in a closed casket. I just can't imagine cremating someone who died in a fire when interment is an option. It's probably because the writers came up with the "Kate watches Steelers games with Jack's ashes" storyline before they figured out how Jack would die.

May I ask why? If someone wanted to be creamated or if a family prefered cremation for various reasons I don't see why they would change that because their loved one died in a fire rather than old age.....

[mansfolly]

Quote

Man, Toby needs to shut the fuck up and stuff it. You've known Kate for exactly one year. Kevin's known her for 36 more years than you. He trumps you, every time. His whole "I need to be Kate's number one." No, asshole, you don't just trump Kate's twin just because you'll be her husband. You can share her, but you can't just demote Kevin. God, I'm back to hating Toby.

Yep.

Quote

If he died in a fire, why were his personal belongings (on the front seat of the car) in perfect condition?

He may not have died in the house, in the fire. He may have died at a hospital.

[Chewy101]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

1 hour ago, notcreative enough said:

Toby is just to much. He expects Kevin and Kate to just stop being connected just because he is dating her now. 

That reminded me of something I was wondering when he was all upset?  Do you thik if Kevin were her sister, Toby would be as upset by their closeness?

My thoughts exactly. Toby is a pig, a controlling pig, and has been from day one. Even if he means well, his approach is more destructive to things than not. A bull in an emotional china shop.

I think I hate everyone on this show. After a summer break from them, their drama is so much to take. Come on show.... Do we have a chance?

[WhosThatGirl]

5 minutes ago, Chewy101 said:

My thoughts exactly. Toby is a pig, a controlling pig, and has been from day one. Even if he means well, his approach is more destructive to things than not. A bull in an emotional china shop.

This. Toby said something like “you aren’t her father!” In regards to him taking care of Kate. And I said I get that they are codependent on each other but twins seem to have a very deep bond that outside forces can’t understand. I don’t even understand but also toby just sucks. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by WhosThatGirl
My auto correct always types tony and not Toby.

[DebbieM4]

15 minutes ago, pennben said:

Okay show, I'm willing to give you another episode, something I thought was impossible at the beginning of the episode and really, really thought wasn't going to happen when: a) Randall told Beth she needed to wrap her mind around this adoption (implied, was "because it is happening") and b) when Rebecca said it's okay to push Beth to take on a child because that is what Jack did to her.  Whoooboy, I was not going to stick around for more of the saintly men, being saintly and women of two generations falling in line.

Toby just has to go, in my opinion, his presence just irritates the hell out of me from his "scwhing" in response to Kate to his....well, just his being there annoys me.  I was happy that Kate lost the role on the quality of her voice, let's move on from her weight being the only story for her.

Finally, the most annoying part was this great 'mystery' of Jack's death.  Honestly, at this point it makes me giggle a bit how they tease clues.  Someone above noted that:

It sounds like a really weird game of Clue or an intense Scooby Doo episode!

Trust your story, not your twists.

So, let's see what next episode holds. 

I agree with a lot of this.  I was pretty underwhelmed for most of this episode.  I've had a love/hate relationship with this show since the beginning.  Sometime it grabs me, but there's lots to be annoyed by too.  Up until tonight's ending, I thought it was off to a really slow and boring start.  I'm with you - Let's see what the next episode holds.

[Chewy101]

1 hour ago, Amethyst said:

Team Toby.  This isn't some rando off the street, he's Kate's fiance and he has the right to be angry.  It's not just about Kevin, it's Kate just casually dropping that "Yeah, I didn't go to this huge audition that meant so much to me and y u mad that I didn't tell you?"  She may be 37, but she acts 16.  I would have been mad, too.  And sorry, but no sympathy for how the audition went.  It was a much needed lesson and now she can improve.

The fact that she told her brother first and then told him should mean nothing to him. She might feel safer telling Kevin because she cares more about what Toby will think of her, which is so sad, considering his low life opinion doesn't deserve a second of thought. For him to have a tantrum at her birthday dinner shows how narcissistic and selfish he really is. Even to make that asshole toast to her, constantly ignoring that her twin and best friend was right there also having a birthday, and just trying to celebrate with his sister, just shows what an ass he is. He has control issues and they are scary. Don't get me wrong, I think Kate is a piece of work, but on this show it's safe to say one of the kids isn't going anywhere. It would be nice, however, if they ditched this Toby character. Too bad he survived the heart attack (only to behave like a freaking baby then, too).

Edited September 27, 2017 by Chewy101

[mansfolly]

Jack was drunk when he went to the bar to get Rebecca a gig.

Yes. Toby is the worst.  First, to walk out of the dinner cuz he's PO'd. Second, and more telling, he does it on his fiancee's and future BiL's birthday. Get over yourself Toby.

Also.... did you see the outfit the actor wore to the Emmy's? He must be very similar to Tody IRL.

[ShawnaLanne]

I think this might be one of those shows where my interest dwindles half way through the second season,  the constant drama, manipulative writing and revealing is already wearing thin. 

[Cardie]

The way present-day Rebecca spoke about Jack and their marriage to Randall, as well as her intense grief at his death, convince me that Jack did not start the fire nor was he not in control of his alcoholism at the time. Given the show's general attitude to Jack, if he died in that fire, he died a hero.

[biakbiak]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

May I ask why? If someone wanted to be creamated or if a family prefered cremation for various reasons I don't see why they would change that because their loved one died in a fire rather than old age.....

I agree. It would never even cross my mind that the way someone died would have any bearing on choosing between cremation and burial.

[willco]

Sometimes this show surprises me, in that usually I expect  things to go one way, because they usually do on tv shows because they are often predictable. At Kate's audition, I almost expected the director ? ( the guy in charge who dismissed her after a few lines of the song) to be like, "Wow, I'll give you more leeway because you are strong & stood up for yourself !" I'm glad that didn't happen, it's more realistic this way.

[pinkelephant3]

What if Rebecca's angiush at the burnt house is not because Jack died there but because Jack had died some other way recently and the house is the last remaining piece of the life they built together. Those items in the bag clearly mean something, wish I could see them better.  Just a thought... 

[maggiemae]

Sorry - but Kate and Tony are not my favorites, at all.

[IrishPirate]

56 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

Anyone know if Randall is older than Kevin and Kate? Heh.

I was wondering how adopting an older child would affect the two girls. I am looking forward to the storyline.

I think Randall is at least a few days older than Kate and Kevin.  William dropped him off at the fire station and he was more than hours old. I had the impression the parents might have tried to hold things together but quickly gave up. Also telling is that there was no effort to find the birth parents.

[NeverLate]

I love them all, warts and all. I think Toby is a very insecure man, but he loves Kate. We have seen her without him.

Randall, he gives me all the feels, I'm so glad Sterling won an Emmy.

I figured we'd have Jack's death , but not season 2 episode one.! Sheesh

This is the best show on TV , it always leaves me wanting more.

30 minutes ago, Cardie said:

The way present-day Rebecca spoke about Jack and their marriage to Randall, as well as her intense grief at his death, convince me that Jack did not start the fire nor was he not in control of his alcoholism at the time. Given the show's general attitude to Jack, if he died in that fire, he died a hero.

The way the children seem to be around Miguel, I'm wondering if he had something to do with the fire.? 

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, IrishPirate said:

I think Randall is at least a few days older than Kate and Kevin.  William dropped him off at the fire station and he was more than hours old. I had the impression the parents might have tried to hold things together but quickly gave up. Also telling is that there was no effort to find the birth parents.

Randall's biological mother (Laurel, IIRC) died in childbirth. The cop who told Jack about Randall in the pilot also mentioned that they'd found the body of a woman who had just given birth, that's why there wasn't a search for the birth parents.

[Big Mother]

I'm glad I'm reading these threads for now instead of actually watching the episodes. I don't think I'd be able to handle it.

There have been two very traumatic fires in my community in the past few years - The Sassoon tragedy and the Gluck tragedy, which left many of us shaken, and the fear of house fires is very real. It's gonna be difficult for me to watch. I might hold out a few episodes until the full picture is known.

[SueB]

I LOVE Kevin and Kate's relationship.  And teenage Kevin s definitely going through a jerk phase -- except with Kate.  It seems to me that Kevin resented Randall, Jack, and Rebecca for YEARS but never Kate.  And I was a little pissed that Jack presumes Kevin will take care of Kate. Who is taking care of Kevin in that scene?   We're back at The Pool again.  I was also sad for Kevin when he basically said the only thing he was good at (naturally) was being Kate's brother -- and now he knows he needs to 'stretch' that a bit. While ITA Toby was OTT possessive, Kevin unlocking their door like that was over the line.   

I was thrilled to see Kate tell the two of them that she needs to manage her own shit and the reason she didn't get the audition.  And Amber honey, you are very good.  Go find a different band.  

I still am in love with the perfectly imperfect Randall and Beth.  I like an older boy but I agree he needs to be younger than the girls.  

I also love how they keep showing Beth's relationship with William.  

I also loved Mandy Moore tonight with her pleading at the door and then the gut wrenching agony in front of the destroyed home.  I don't know where they are going with Jack but I'm not desperate to find out. 

Now I have a weird question, when Kevin said to Kate in the movie, 'Do you think Randall is going to make his move', was he talking about Randall and a person not there or some weird Oedipal theory in Kevin's head?   

Edited September 27, 2017 by SueB

[Cardie]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

was he talking about Randall and a person not there or some weird Oedipal theory in Kevin's head?   

He seemed to imply that Randall would like to get it on with their Mom. That was really weird and disturbing.

[OtterMommy]

I have to say that I was underwhelmed with that.  There were a few things--I liked, but mostly it just seemed either same old/same old or actually a step down from last season.

As for Jack and Rebecca--I was thinking while watching this that I'm past caring how Jack dies.  And even when it looks like we got some sort of answer, I was..."whatever."  There was a time when I felt I needed to know, but the show waited too long IMO.  You know, a friend of mine--who is ALL IN with this show--had this complaint about last season: the penultimate episode felt like a season finale and the season finale felt like it should have been the 2nd season premiere.  After watching this, I'd say that *this* episode felt more like the 1st season finale for me.

Oh, and Jack...don't ever sleep on a hide-a-bed without a sheet.  There is just something gross about that.

I also had an issue with Beth and Randall...their 2nd season personas just didn't seem to connect to their 1st season personas to me.  Yes, I know that they went through a major life event and people are changed by that, but it just seemed like more.  I think that they wanted to shift the dynamic between the two this season and just had a hard time with it--hopefully it will be smoother from here on out.  Also, catty observation: Beth's current hairstyle makes her look like Prince.

I'm still really not feeling Kevin and Sophie.  I know that they only had one brief scene and one skype scene together, but I just can't believe that coupling.  I also firmly believe that it was a late-in-the-game decision to give Kevin some long-lost soulmate and now they're trying to shove it down our throat and it just isn't working for me.

What IS working for me, oddly enough, is the Kate-Kevin-Toby dynamic.  I was kind of off Toby in the latter part of last season, but I understand his frustration with Kevin and, in that whole thing, I find myself coming down on his side...which is sort of freaking me out.  I also felt what we saw of Kate and Toby's relationship in this episode actually seemed almost healthy (and I realize that may change completely next week).  I also really liked the producer or whatever it was making sure Kate knew that she didn't get the job because of her ability, not her appearance.  She really wasn't that good--and I thought that as she was singing, before I even heard the not-good-enough back-up singer.  Also, the Kate hiding behind her weight thing, while realistic, is also getting old and maybe that will shake it up a bit.

Finally, the bicoastal nature of the show isn't working for me.  I realize that, in regards to the story, it was kind of ridiculous that everyone was in the NY/NJ/PA area.  But having Kate, Kevin, and Toby in LA and Randall, Beth, and Rebecca on the East Coast makes me feel like I'm watching 2 different shows.

Call me coldhearted, but I was not moved by the last scene.  No tears for me....  

[LADreamr]

3 hours ago, mtlchick said:

About Jack's death; I'm going to say...alcoholic, in a drunken stupor left something burning, torching the house and himself.

Which adds a morbid twist to Kate having his ashes. 

[biakbiak]

I have the same Pianos Daude poster in my living room for 15 years that Kate and Toby have, perhaps I should redecorate.

I was with Toby for part of it, it's not just Kate's house anymore Kevin shouldn't be just walking in without a knock. The do need to compromise on what their boundaries are and how to make it work for them all. However, the three kids seemed to have inherited Jack's inability to compromise. I will be curious to see how K/K interacted when he was married to Sophie.  I do like Toby and Kevin's scenes better than either of them with Kate.

Rebecca saying that Jack was as close to perfect as they come made me want to vomit. She should have gone to therapy or Al Anon.

[MsJamieDornan]

50 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I was thinking while watching this that I'm past caring how Jack dies.  And even when it looks like we got some sort of answer, I was..."whatever."  There was a time when I felt I needed to know, but the show waited too long IMO.

They have dragged it out too long. And, I have a feeling it will be even longer.

[izabella]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Was he planning on going? It didn't seem like Randall and/or Beth were planning a cross country trip if they were meeting with adoption agency people and whatnot.

I still had the recording so I rewound.  I remembered it completely wrong - Kevin came in and said Sophie wasn't able to make it to dinner.

[Amethyst]

2 hours ago, SuzyLee said:

It's incredible, how well one can hide alcohol addiction.  I have family who could win Academy awards for how well they hid/hide serious drinking problems.  Tolerance to large amounts of alcohol builds gradually over time until it infiltrates every part of one's life.  Jack and Rebecca had grown a bit distant as the kids aged, making it easier for him to mask his alcoholism.  Sad, sad stuff.

I've witnessed alcoholism from close family members, for many years.  I'm not saying Jack had to be a fall down drunk for people to notice what was going on, just that they could have picked up more than he thought.

 

Quote

The fact that she told her brother first and then told him should mean nothing to him. She might feel safer telling Kevin because she cares more about what Toby will think of her, which is so sad, considering his low life opinion doesn't deserve a second of thought. For him to have a tantrum at her birthday dinner shows how narcissistic and selfish he really is. Even to make that asshole toast to her, constantly ignoring that her twin and best friend was right there also having a birthday, and just trying to celebrate with his sister, just shows what an ass he is.

Low life?  Ouch.  I don't think Toby wants to (or should) infringe on Kate and Kevin's relationship.  Didn't Kate drop everything to run to Kevin's side for something last season, and Toby was pretty baffled until Kate told him that that's how things were with her and her brother?  So Toby knows how close they are.  Given everything Kate and Kevin have gone through together, that's not necessarily a bad thing.  But Kate lied to Toby about the audition instead of just being honest and telling him the truth.  Would she have told him if hadn't pried about it at dinner?   

Toby did act like a jerk towards Kevin and owed him an apology, but I get why he's frustrated with the situation.  If he and Kate are getting married (which they probably shouldn't) she needs to be honest with him about what's she's really feeling.  And it's ok if he wants some boundaries about who shows up at his house. 

[Drumpf1737]

I'm starting to feel about Kate's speeches, the way some feel about Joe Morton's speeches on Scandal. I shook my head the whole time she yelled at the poor director. Rebecca and Randall's chat was creepy. There were elements of Celie telling Harpo to beat Sophia in The Color Purple. You can't and shouldn't "push" your partner into a huge decision that affects your whole family. Where will everyone fit in Randall's huge, odd house with only 3 bedrooms anyway? [shrug]

Beth and William's scenes were so well done. They are lovely together and offer a very different perspective than everyone else. 

I fell off the couch at Randall calling the girls Omarosa and Stacey Dash. 

I agree with someone above, who said Jack was drunk when he tried to get Rebecca the singing gig at the lounge.

If I have to deal with Toby can I have him in smaller doses, please?  Just a little smaller, smaller still, you're getting it NBC.

[Racj82]

Ahh the Toby hate continues. Not by me though. 

If anyone asks why is this show so popular or why do I love it, it's because I love this family. Warts and all. It isn't very often that I can find characters I care for as much as these. It deserves all the accolades and ratings it gets. I'll defend it to anybody. Such a beautiful show.

Sterling k brown is a godsend because any other actor pulling that you are going to have to wrap your mind about this would get a permanent fuck off from me. But, of course he came around.

[bros402]

What was in the bag in the passenger seat at the end? I thought it was just possessions or something - like the kind of plastic bag they give you at the hospital. Or maybe he went to a rehab program and it held his possessions in it. Maybe Kate was making dinner for Randall while Kevin was out with Sophie and Rebecca was doing something, fire happened, they ended up at Miguel's.

[SadieT]

4 hours ago, ChucktownGirl said:

I'm thinking that the dog is Kate's....they are watching the Steelers game (Rebecca is wearing a jersey in the final scene)when the fire starts and Rebecca, Randall, Jack, and Kate get out.....Kate's dog is left inside, and she is distraught....Jack goes back in to get the dog and doesn't come out, but the dog was outside all the time.....hence, Kate blames herself for his death.  Trying to figure Kevin and his leg out....did he play football?  Maybe he broke it playing and couldn't stand to watch football so he went out with Sofie?  

Teenage Kevin played football right? And Jack likely went to every game I'd assume. Maybe the broken leg is meant to show that even though it was football season, Kevin wasn't playing because he was hurt so Jack was at home when the fire occurred. Perhaps with Kate and the dog. And maybe Randall also stopped playing football and was out with the red-haired girl who might be his girlfriend. 

[colorbars]

5 hours ago, emjohnson03 said:

I'm curious what Kevin's broken leg implicates because they made it clear they wanted us to see. Could it be that Jack saved them from the fire and he was in the hospital from burns or something? I feel like it's all connected somehow.

Not sure if it's necessarily connected to how Jack dies, but there was some new developments with all the kids in that scene: Randall with the girlfriend, Kate with the dog, and Kevin with the leg. I'm sure it's just setting up for what flashbacks we can expect leading up to the reveal of just how Jack died.

5 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

Am I the only one who doesn't like Beth?  I guess I just don't like the actress.  She isn't natural to me.  All her expressions seem fake.  And she always seems upset.

I've always found Beth really funny and delightful. This was the first time she ever seemed overly upset about anything.

[CelticBlackCat]

I really enjoyed this whole episode.  I wound up in the UO thread and left a post there.  I'm not really a Beth hater.  After reading this entire thread, I am wondering if the park scene with Beth and William was a flashback of something that had happened or Beth was imagining a conversation with William after she left the adoption agency.

The only thing I fault Beth on is that she should have spoken to Randall about her true thoughts on the matter before even going to the appointment.  She was correct about what she said about people just showing up to her house (Kevin was in the basement for a whole year?) and how Randall has been acting.  I totally disagree with the pushing advice Rebecca gave.  Geez, Beth isn't going to be taking in a stray dog that someone else promises to take care of, please can't we keep him?, she's going to be someone else's mother, legally and relationship-wise, if they adopt a child.  I hope Randall and Beth quit while they're ahead and don't adopt any child regardless of age.  Maybe Randall can volunteer at the Boys Club or become a Boy Scout Leader or something to fulfill his yearning for a boy.  Especially now that he's a househusband.  Why does he think he needs to recreate his childhood by adopting a boy?

Toby was a jerk about the birthday dinner.  He needs to lose the jealousy or move on to another woman.  I'll take the latter and maybe Kate can find love somewhere else.  Toby needs to at least lose that swirly spot of hair on his balding head!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Toby needs to take a seat. He is the interloper. He is the new one. Kevin and Kate are siblings. They have a lifetime of history together. When you come into a family, you have to accept their existing relationships, not dictate how you want those relationships to be. If someone I was dating told me that he didn't like my relationship with my sister (or worse yet, told my sister that he didn't like her relationship with me), I would kick his ass to the curb.

Yes, Kate and Kevin can be too dependent on each other, but it's up to them to decide that they're too dependent, not for someone else to decide that for them.

What annoyed me in addition is that Toby's issue is not so much with Kate and Kevin's codependence but about his need to be The Man in Kate's life. He wants to be the number one person in Kate's life and he doesn't like that he is in competition with Kevin for the #1 spot and clearly losing. Why did you tell Kevin first? Why do you have your own shorthand for talking? Why aren't I the most important person in the whole world? Gawd. His jealousy is so obvious and so unattractive.

I was totally with Beth when Randall told her that the adoption was happening and she had to accept it. THE HELL YOU SAY?! That is not how marriage works. That is not how any healthy relationship works. You don't get to make huge decisions like that by yourself.  I don't care what Rebecca says about Jack pushing her to adopt Randall and how that was a happily ever after. It's not right for one person to make that kind of decision for his family. On top of all that, is adopting really a good idea right now? Randall just had a crazy year finding his birth father, having his birth father move in, and then having his birth father die. That is A LOT to deal with. And now that Beth is the only one working, can they really afford another kid right now?

6 hours ago, debraran said:

She just said to his Dad's ghost, how Manny and him got dumped at her house, no discussion.  lol  We all have our reality.

 

6 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I thought that was a flashback to Beth talking to William before he and Randall departed on their trip.  Her hair was different.

Yes, it was a flashback, not a ghost scene. Both her hair and her clothes were different and she mentioned their upcoming trip to Memphis.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[debraran]

18 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was totally with Beth when Randall told her that the adoption was happening and she had to accept it. THE HELL YOU SAY?! That is not how marriage works. That is not how any healthy relationship works. You don't get to make huge decisions like that by yourself.  I don't care what Rebecca says about Jack pushing her to adopt Randall and how that was a happily ever after. It's not right for one person to make that kind of decision for his family. On top of all that, is adopting really a good idea right now? Randall just had a crazy year finding his birth father, having his birth father move in, and then having his birth father die. That is A LOT to deal with. And now that Beth is the only one working, can they really afford another kid right now?

I had to laugh that Randall didn't see pushing his brother, father, etc on her initially, without any real discussion was okay with her. It turned out fine, but it could not have. A child is not a toy, he knows that, it isn't let's adopt and we will have a fairy tale family, I hope they have all the counseling the family needs beforehand and show i realistically. I know the writers want drama so a baby wouldn't fit, it just eats, sleeps and cries but it will be interesting with the dynamic of their 2 daughters, somewhat privileged and another child. I hope it is done well without stereotypes. I feel the writers will and I'm glad Beth wasn't, "Let's do this" She knows Randall is flying on the death of his dad and so much emotion. Adopting isn't a quick decision.

[SadieT]

Randall and Beth adopting an older child makes me think of when Julia and Joel adopted an older child on Parenthood and I didn’t love the drama that storyline brought on that show so I’m sure I won’t love it here either. 

Kevin and Kate’s relationship is one of my favorite things about this show so I don’t want to see it change but I could, theoretically, understand why a significant other might feel threatened by their close bond. Still, my issue is that Toby isn’t just upset that Kate and Kevin are co-dependent, he’s upset that Kate isn’t dependent on him. So it’s not the unhealthiness of a co-dependent relationship he has an issue with, it’s that he doesn’t benefit from it and doesn’t get to play Kate’s hero and savior and that’s a problem. 

I know teenage Kevin is kind of a dick but I kind of feel bad for him, even after he made that snarky comment about Randall and their mom during the movie. It’s obvious Kate is a daddy’s girl and Rebecca and Randall have a very close bond and Kevin doesn’t get to feel that close connection to either parent so he acts out. 

[debraran]

I watched the ending again with CC and the bag on the seat has a steno book, ring and watch, keys and small flag.   The "pills" I heard were pillows, funny how you can't concentrate on too much when so much emotion is going on, Miguel was bringing them bedding. 

At the end, in the car, she seems to not know the entire fate of the home, they are still working on it. The producer said, "

“But did he die in the fire? Did he get out of the fire? Did he start the fire?,” Ventimiglia said coyly during a Q&A panel after Tuesday night's premiere at Neuehouse in Hollywood.  “We didn’t actually see the house on fire.”

Moore said of that final moment:  “That’s not the full story, that’s just a piece of the puzzle"

I guess if it were too cut and dried, it would get boring. There would be no real tension except waiting for the football day. Here's to a hopefully great season!

23 hours ago, pinkelephant3 said:

What if Rebecca's angiush at the burnt house is not because Jack died there but because Jack had died some other way recently and the house is the last remaining piece of the life they built together. Those items in the bag clearly mean something, wish I could see them better.  Just a thought... 

That could be, too easy for the other. I wrote that I watched the scene this morning on NBC to see the bag and  be able to hit pause, and it had a steno book, keys, ring, watch and a small flag .  Obviously his, maybe from hospital or rehab.

I was thinking the kids could have been crying because of the fire and Jack went to rehab and the death happens later, that would be a big twist. She was seeing the house for the first time it seems. Maybe he caused that fire and stuff happens later.  18 episodes to get through. ; )

 

18 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Yes, it was a flashback, not a ghost scene. Both her hair and her clothes were different and she mentioned their upcoming trip to Memphis.

That is correct, it was a flashback but I still thought it was to emphasize how much she was expected to just absorb and adjust too and he didn't see it that way. Sometimes our own reality needs to be adjusted. I was nice or went the extra mile but I have feelings too.

[Annb67]

Was that Jack's Steelers shirt she had on at the end?

[kissedbyarose]

I still love the show but I’m not interested in some of the storylines they might be setting up right now. I’m not a fan of the adoption storyline or watching Kate trying to be a singer. I thought it was unrealistic when she mentioned it last season and now I’m supposed to watch her start going to open mic nights trying to make it big? No thanks.

 

The adoption storyline - Beth is not into it at all so that is going to ruin this storyline for me. 

 

Kevin and Hollywood = meh.

 

Again, I do love the show but if this is what the season will look like then it’s going to be a long one for me. I am, however, into the Jack is an alcoholic thing. 

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

But in that case she could have just had him in a closed casket. I just can't imagine cremating someone who died in a fire when interment is an option. It's probably because the writers came up with the "Kate watches Steelers games with Jack's ashes" storyline before they figured out how Jack would die.

I don't see why not.  I've stated that I want to be cremated when I die and I can't see whoever ends up having to make the arrangements changing that if I happen to die in a fire.  What difference does it make?

[Fostersmom]

6 hours ago, Cardie said:

He seemed to imply that Randall would like to get it on with their Mom. That was really weird and disturbing.

It was a very teenage boy thing though. Especially since we know Kevin has always felt Randall ate up too much of mom's attention. Randall's down there offering to share movie snack with Mom, and even though Kevin was on the other side of her, it was still Randall taking Kevin's place. 

[biakbiak]

8 minutes ago, kissedbyarose said:

thought it was unrealistic when she mentioned it last season and now I’m supposed to watch her start going to open mic nights trying to make it big? No thanks.

Yeah I thought she missed an important part of that guy's speech that the Amber's of LA have been busting their ass for years and years to be the backup singer in the seventeenth best reviewed wedding band in southern California, so starting at 37 seems even more unrealistic. They will probably have her be like Susan Boyle and do a crossover with The Voice or have Kevin use his influence to get her a gig. I would much rather her focus on using the skills that have been alluded to in the Jaime Gertz episode and her organizing Kevin's life than go down this singing road.

[llewis823]

9 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

Am I the only one who doesn't like Beth?  I guess I just don't like the actress.  She isn't natural to me.  All her expressions seem fake.  And she always seems upset.

No you are not the only one. And the Prince haircut...not very flattering. I feel like she always talks down to everyone - and rarely smiles. Not a big fan of her character.

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

About Jack's death; I'm going to say...alcoholic, in a drunken stupor left something burning, torching the house and himself. 

Maybe he just started the fire but got out and she was collecting his belongings from the jail. but then again, they said they had to get to Kevin to tell him. So that would hint at the fact it was the same instance when she had to tell him their dad had died.

[Haleth]

I think Kevin's broken leg (probably from football?) is meant to be a time stamp.  When we see it happen in a future episode we'll know Jack's death isn't far away.  It seems to me he was out with Sophie and his friends, perhaps Kate was home with Jack, no idea yet where Randall and Rebecca were.  Something happens to start the fire which causes Kate to carry the guilt.  Perhaps Jack is rushed to the hospital.  Rebecca drops Kate and Randall off at Miguel's and rushes to the hospital where Jack is pronounced dead.  On the way home (with his belongings in a plastic bag) she stops by the house to see the firefighters finishing up their work.  Kate and Randall are in shock.  Kevin doesn't know yet what happened.  It's awful that Rebecca had to drive herself home.  No one (friend, relative) was there to support her?

I guess it's an unpopular opinion but I think Toby (who I'm not a fan of at all) was right about wanting Kevin to take a step back.  If he and Kate are to be married she needs to change her mindset and make her husband the closest person to her.  I get the whole twin thing and that they've gone through a lot together and I don't think it would make a difference if Kevin was a sister.  Having a third person so close to one's marriage is asking for resentment.  Kevin doesn't have to remove himself entirely, but just give them space.  But it's really something Toby and KATE need to discuss. 

For the first time in this show I gave Randall the side eye for pushing the adoption thing on Beth who surely had misgivings that he ignored.  (Just as Toby needs to communicate with Kate about his feelings, Beth needed to get Randall to listen to her.)  That is such a huge life decision that if there is the slightest hesitation it could be disastrous.  I'm not sure adopting an older child is a wise compromise.  Beth better be 100% sure it's what she wants to do before bringing another child into their lives.  

I love Beth's new haircut and I love that we still get to see William in flashbacks.

[topanga]

8 hours ago, mrsbagnet said:

Yes, this a thousand times. If Toby can't understand or handle the concept of TWINS, then he needs to gather up his savior complex and go find another woman with low self-esteem whom he can fix. Kate has a twin. Toby will never displace Kevin, and it is futile for him to even try.

For once, I'll defend Toby. I don't think he expects them to stop being twins, but he wishes that Kate needed him and opened up to him the way she does Kevin. And another little thing:  it was inconsiderate  for her to change outfits just because Kevin said so. And without acknowledging Toby, even though she'd just told him how much his opinion meant to her. Basically she keeps telling Toby, 'You're my person--unless Kevin is around. Then you don't matter.'

 

8 hours ago, pennben said:

Okay show, I'm willing to give you another episode, something I thought was impossible at the beginning of the episode and really, really thought wasn't going to happen when: a) Randall told Beth she needed to wrap her mind around this adoption (implied, was "because it is happening") and b) when Rebecca said it's okay to push Beth to take on a child because that is what Jack did to her.  Whoooboy, I was not going to stick around for more of the saintly men, being saintly and women of two generations falling in line.

3 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

 

I really enjoyed this whole episode.  I wound up in the UO thread and left a post there.  I'm not really a Beth hater.  After reading this entire thread, I am wondering if the park scene with Beth and William was a flashback of something that had happened or Beth was imagining a conversation with William after she left the adoption agency.

The only thing I fault Beth on is that she should have spoken to Randall about her true thoughts on the matter before even going to the appointment.  She was correct about what she said about people just showing up to her house (Kevin was in the basement for a whole year?) and how Randall has been acting.  I totally disagree with the pushing advice Rebecca gave.  Geez, Beth isn't going to be taking in a stray dog that someone else promises to take care of, please can't we keep him?, she's going to be someone else's mother, legally and relationship-wise, if they adopt a child.  I hope Randall and Beth quit while they're ahead and don't adopt any child regardless of age.  Maybe Randall can volunteer at the Boys Club or become a Boy Scout Leader or something to fulfill his yearning for a boy.  Especially now that he's a househusband.  Why does he think he needs to recreate his childhood by adopting a boy?

 

 

 

I agree. This is actually the first tme I haven't liked Randall. Or at least sympathized with him. And I hope it doesn't signify a longer pattern of him being selfish and ignoring Beth's wants and needs. Because on TV, that usually foreshadows an impending divorce. Which I would hate to see. There are so few happily married people of color on TV, and it would kill me to see the writers break them up for the sake of drama.

But they both seemed genuinely happy and on the same page at the beginning of last season. I think finding William and everything that followed changed all of their lives and made Randall say and do things that were OOC.

And yeah, I'm not on board with the Beth hate. She has accommodated every one of Randall's needs with little complaint--except for the one time she chose marriage. Which was really choosing parenthood--she asked Randall to do something for his daughter, not just her. 

She does have a dry, witty sense of humor, so when she makes jokes, she sometimes has a straight face. But that doesn't make her humorless. I remember joining in with the kitchen dancing and making Williams's song list and joking with the girls. I think Beth is far from humorless. 

[Guest]

I think it also rings false that Miguel told Randall and Kate about Jack dying (if that is what happens).  I can't imagine Rebecca wouldn't be the one to tell them. Even if they knew something happened and Jack was at the hospital (which I think he would have had to be for Rebecca to be given his belongings), news like that would normally come from a parent.

[MsChicklet]

9 hours ago, SuzyLee said:

It's incredible, how well one can hide alcohol addiction.  I have family who could win Academy awards for how well they hid/hide serious drinking problems.  Tolerance to large amounts of alcohol builds gradually over time until it infiltrates every part of one's life.  Jack and Rebecca had grown a bit distant as the kids aged, making it easier for him to mask his alcoholism.  Sad, sad stuff.

Yep. I could see it in Rebecca's face of frozen shock when Jack revealed it and then shut the door. She was wondering how this happened, and how she didn't see it until he showed up at her show. We've had months to process this, but in Pearson TIme, she's had less than 48 hours to go from being happy on stage to creepy ex and drunk husband ruining it to separation to telling the kids to finding this out.

[biakbiak]

6 minutes ago, MsChicklet said:

. I could see it in Rebecca's face of frozen shock when Jack revealed it and then shut the door. She was wondering how this happened, and how she didn't see it until he showed up at her show.

Also, she wasn't looking for signs because she didn't view him as an alcoholic which she states this episode. She saw a man who stayed out late drinking too often, a lifestyle she shared before she got pregnant, but stopped when she pointed that out to him. 

[Mrs. DuRona]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I'm not sure adopting an older child is a wise compromise.  Beth better be 100% sure it's what she wants to do before bringing another child into their lives.  

IMO, the true compromise would be for them to become certified foster parents, and do long term foster care for older kids.

[Racj82]

I think I'm going to start doing a Toby defense corner. I feel like hos actions are never looked at from both sides.

The negative side most people only see. Toby is a jealous jerk that's too possessive and whiny. He also doesn't seem to understand how siblings or twins work.

Counterpoint

 

It is perfectly fair for someone you are about to marry to want some privacy and boundaries. Things should shift when potential spouses enter the picture. You shouldn't be made to feel like the third wheel in your relationship. Kevin is constantly acting blind to social cues while having to apologize for it later. It would get really old after a while. 

Yes, he needs to learn to stay calmer and express himself better. I also don't think that makes him a jealous asshole. I'm just not a fan of one sided judgements so I don't do that with him or others on tv. 

To go along with any fault Toby may have had here, Kevin needs to learn boundaries, Kate needs to learn how to read the person she's supposed to love, Randall needs to makes his marriage more of a partnership, Beth needs to learn her words. All flawed characters but very real.