S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[Drogo]

 Tyrion literally built a Hoe-Door in the bottom of Casterly Rock.

[Constantinople]

It's not easy to move a large army all the way from Casterly Rock to the Highgarden in complete secrecy

Good to know that

• Varys's little birds didn't pick-up on it
• The dragons aren't being used at all, not even for aerial reconnaissance
• No one in Highgarden, or anyone along the way, thought to send a raven to Dragonstone

[YaddaYadda]

I wanna start with Meera first. Meera is such an unsung hero. Went beyond the Wall, survived, and brought Bran back. This girl has gone through a lot and she is so very rarely mentioned. Meera is too kind and too good for this world.

Brandon Stark wasn't burned, D&D. He was strangled. I get that saying Aerys roasted him makes for something more dramatic, but the way Brandon Stark dies is dramatic to the extreme when we get the full picture of what happened. 

I was so very happy with the Jon/Tyrion scenes and I was looking for these for a very long time, and I was not disappointed. 

Mr. YaddaYadda's reaction when Missandei started rattling off Dany's titles. "This is gonna take a while, I'm gonna go in the kitchen? Want something?"

"This is Jon Snow, he's....King in the North." 

Me *thinking of titles*: "This is Jon Snow, King in the North, the Bastard of Winterfell, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Rescuer of Wildlings, Warg (but not on the show), People Whisperer, Champion of Brooding, The Resurrected."

Cersei speech about Myrcella did not move me one bit, especially how she saw Tommen's death as him betraying his family. Tommen was a nice kid and everyone took advantage of that, Cersei, Margaery, the High Sparrow. So she can stick her feelings about Myrcella. I felt more for Ellaria in that moment when she realized Tyene was about to be poisoned. But she also made her bed. 

There is now a power vacuum in Dorne, and I don't think the show cares about that. I doubt Dorne will be revisited again. 

Drogon flying so low over Jon after he got done saying he wasn't a Stark. 

Olenna is a character I love in both the books and the show and she had the last word. I will miss her on the show. She still went on her own terms in a way.

Qyburn is fucking crazy. He just revels in the chaos he has helped create and I hope he dies most painfully.

14 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It's not easy to move a large army all the way from Casterly Rock to the Highgarden in complete secrecy

Good to know that

• Varys's little birds didn't pick-up on it
• The dragons aren't being used at all, not even for aerial reconnaissance
• No one in Highgarden, or anyone along the way, thought to send a raven to Dragonstone

Does Varys even have little birds anymore?

ETA - I knew I'd forget about this.

Mel's line about bringing ice and fire together. This better not be like "the north remembers". I demand an explanation. Also, Jon is both, but I'm assuming she does get it, like she doesn't get most things when she's reading her flames.

Edited July 31, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[jcin617]

21 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Does Varys even have little birds anymore?

I've thought about this as many folks have brought up how Varys's little birds aren't very useful or are being ignored by the script.   Didn't Qyburn turn Varys's birds to his service?   Aren't they the ones that took out Pycelle?

[Conan Troutman]

Looks like Sam will be staying at the Citadel for a while now... which is fine with me. A lot more interesting than his previous plot and a lot funnier too. "I've read the directions in the books and followed them" was a great line.

Dany's conquest so far is pretty much a complete and utter disaster. She's lost her fleet, she's lost Olenna and the Sand Snakes - and with them Dorne and the Reach, plus one of two Greyjoys in her camp. And the Unsullied are currently trapped in Casterly Rock, which is strategically pretty worthless. Cersei has simply outsmarted Dany by a mile, kudos to that - and now Dany will have to take out her dragons and get in on the action herself (no, not like that!) - too bad that Cersei has a shiny new dragon slaying ballista now. This is gonna be one hell of a fight. 

Great pep talk there Bran... sheesh. Maybe could've said something about Littlefinger arranging your parents deaths, ya know? Oh well, they clearly have to wait until Arya arrives - which means she could also use his face. Which could come in very handy. At the very least she could impersonate him when he'll have to talk to the Lords of the Vale. Weekend at Littlefinger's - I want that! And the Orphan-Black style comedy version of it too where where  Maise Williams does all the impersonations - there's your spinoff, HBO! 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Conan Troutman

[benteen]

50 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I wanna start with Meera first. Meera is such an unsung hero. Went beyond the Wall, survived, and brought Bran back. This girl has gone through a lot and she is so very rarely mentioned. Meera is too kind and too good for this world.

On the subject of Meera, I hope the first person she meets while at Winterfell is Brienne.  Those two would be awesome together.  Throw in Lady Mormont and you could have a pretty awesome spinoff.  The Warriors Three.

On the subject of Varys not knowing about Shireen being burned, why should he?  Everyone at Stannis's camp was slaughtered.  No one from Ramsay's forces knew about it.  Only Jon and Davos knew about it after the fact.  I'm pretty sure there were no "little birds" hiding in the room when they confronted Melisandre about it.

[nodorothyparker]

2 hours ago, Ariah said:

I understand people being frustrated with the show Jamie (my fav character from the novels by far) but I also acknowledge this Jamie is in a totally different spot that the book one: his Cersei remained saner for a longer period of time, he didn't learn about all her romances and he's getting some wins. In each episode he's pulling further away from his sister, but keeps turning back. This time Cersei simply f*cked the idea out of him. I do appreciate they keep showing him as stepping away from unnecessary cruelty, as opposite to Cersei.

The squicky seduction scene in some ways reminded of the one in SOS when she comes to him in the tower.  Of course there he refuses her, mostly because his head is full of notions about lost honor and the deaths of Marcella and Tommen and all this other stuff haven't happened yet to wear him down.  The Lannisters haven't suffered the humiliations of Tyrion killing Tywin on the toilet, the big public spectacle of a trial that laid bare to everyone their family's horrible infighting, or the walk of shame, and he still feels like he has possibilities.  This scene comes shortly after Euron is doing his best to publicly emasculate him, which Cersei seems to be egging on in her promises to him of "when the war is won," and isn't being able to finally be open about their relationship what they've spent their whole lives waiting for?

Jaime's final scene with Oleanna was magnificent, for how she handled it of course but also for what it told us about him.  (NCW is a master in being able to say a lot just in his reacting to other actors.)  He doesn't disagree with her that everything that Cersei has done and where she is leading is beyond his control now. There was something incredibly weary and fatalistic about it, which is a far cry from the scene waaaay back in the first season when he was full of bravado vowing to fight the whole world in "the war for Cersei's cunt."  Even in his claim that no one will care how Cersei went about building a better world when this is all over, he looked like he was trying to talk himself into believing it as much as anything else.  If he's at all honest with himself, he knows damn well Cersei doesn't care about building a better world.  She just wants to come out on top.  He admits he had to talk her down from torturing an old woman that as far as they knew only committed treason in refusing to support the crown, so we know he already knows.

I'm still enjoying show Euron just for how completely over the top he is.  He's saving the Kings Landing scenes from just being Cersei making more big pronouncements to Jaime while Qyburn scuttles about in his ever resourceful evilness.  Reading that Euron and Jaime's actors as fellow Danishmen are apparently great friends in real life makes their scenes of Euron needling Jaime sparkle all the more for me.

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Melisandre saying she "brought fire and ice together" had to be a nod to the shippers.

More likely it's just a call out to the title of the book series that started it all.  "A Game of Thrones" is the name of the first book but the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire." I don't think the show-runners care about "shippers."

Edited July 31, 2017 by WatchrTina

[benteen]

Speaking of out of character, here's an "out of character" change from the book to the show...there's no way in HELL that the Iron Bank of Braavos would ever support the slave trade in Volantis.  The city was founded by free slaves and is extremely anti-slavery.

Edited July 31, 2017 by benteen

[WatchrTina]

I don't know benteen.  The Iron Bank isn't exactly held up as a bastion of morality.  It's completely plausible to me that the Iron Bank, sitting in the middle of a town founded by freed slaves, could be cheerfully profiting from slavery and rationalize it's behavior as "someone is going to do it so it may as well be us."  The Iron Bank strikes me as the kind of place that would loan money to both sides of a war -- like arms merchants selling to both sides in modern times.  I don't think the Iron Bank is "of the people" of Braavos.

[Jodithgrace]

Quote

Me *thinking of titles*: "This is Jon Snow, King in the North, the Bastard of Winterfell, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Rescuer of Wildlings, Warg (but not on the show), People Whisperer, Champion of Brooding, The Resurrected."

And in addition, he Knows Nothing.

[Alapaki]

After having ruminated on the myriad improbabilities of the end-point of the Dorne and Highgarden/Tyrell storylines, I've resigned myself to viewing them (at the risk of dating myself) as an iteration of what the producers of Dallas did when they decided that season with Bobby Ewing dead was all a dream.

Neither Dorne or Highgarden were ever going anywhere narratively, I think.  I believe that the Tyrells got more mileage than originally intended because the actresses playing Margaery and Glenna were both so good.  

But last night was, in my mind, D&D's way of saying "yeah, about those folks. . . never mind." 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, jcin617 said:

I've thought about this as many folks have brought up how Varys's little birds aren't very useful or are being ignored by the script.   Didn't Qyburn turn Varys's birds to his service?   Aren't they the ones that took out Pycelle?

We saw him coopt the birds in King's Landing, but how would he turn -- or even know how to reach -- the ones in the rest of the realm? That doesn't seem like something Varys would leave behind documentation about, considering it's the entire basis of his value to anyone. 

47 minutes ago, benteen said:

On the subject of Varys not knowing about Shireen being burned, why should he?  Everyone at Stannis's camp was slaughtered.  No one from Ramsay's forces knew about it.  Only Jon and Davos knew about it after the fact.

No, the reason Stannis was so fucked is because a large portion of his army deserted after he burned Shireen. There should be a whole bunch of people who not only know but are highly motivated to tell the world about it to explain their disloyalty. 

[cambridgeguy]

The common folk in Kings Landing seem pretty fond of Cersei, or maybe they just like seeing any non-commoner marched down the street in chains.

So let's see, the Tyrells and Dorne are done, most of her fleet is wiped out, the Unsullied are stuck on the other side of the continent, and Euron must have invented motors given how quickly his fleet can teleport around the water.  Sounds like it's Dothraki time.  I guess Sansa should be thankful Winterfell isn't a port city or she'd probably see the Greyjoy fleet outside her window.

[jeansheridan]

27 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

The Iron Bank strikes me as the kind of place that would loan money to both sides of a war -- like arms merchants selling to both sides in modern times.  I don't think the Iron Bank is "of the people" of Braavos.

One of my favorite surreal scenes in the last book is when the intrepid banker shows up at Stannis' camp to discuss money. Hee. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

It's not easy to move a large army all the way from Casterly Rock to the Highgarden in complete secrecy

Good to know that

• Varys's little birds didn't pick-up on it
• The dragons aren't being used at all, not even for aerial reconnaissance
• No one in Highgarden, or anyone along the way, thought to send a raven to Dragonstone

How could they do that without riders?  The dragons can't talk or relay information in any way.  And Missandei gave the reason why Dany can't ride them.

[YaddaYadda]

6 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

One of my favorite surreal scenes in the last book is when the intrepid banker shows up at Stannis' camp to discuss money. Hee. 

Braved the snow storm too and picked up passengers along the way. He is a very dedicated man. 

About Bran, I wanted to feel something with the reunion, especially when the Stark theme is playing in the background, but he was so emotionally detached. And I don't know if being detached like that is because he is a the three-eyed raven and has access to all this information, including what happened to his family, or if it's an acting choice. It just didn't hit the right notes with me. 

[SimoneS]

42 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I don't know benteen.  The Iron Bank isn't exactly held up as a bastion of morality.  It's completely plausible to me that the Iron Bank, sitting in the middle of a town founded by freed slaves, could be cheerfully profiting from slavery and rationalize it's behavior as "someone is going to do it so it may as well be us."  The Iron Bank strikes me as the kind of place that would loan money to both sides of a war -- like arms merchants selling to both sides in modern times.  I don't think the Iron Bank is "of the people" of Braavos.

I agree. The Iron Bank is about making profit. No way it can be happy that it lost the wealthy masters as customers after Daenerys freed the people they enslaved. I think that the only reason the Iron Bank hasn't approached Daenerys is because she doesn't need their money, but I expect that after she defeats Cersei and needs money to rebuild after the war, they will be happy to loan her all the money that she needs.

[Hana Chan]

The season may be a short one, but they are certainly jam-packing every episode to make the most of what time they had.

I was intrigued by the initial meeting between Dany and Jon, because it was just such a display of contrasts. Dany was very clearly trying to exert authority from the instant Jon's feet touched the beach, with the demands for his weapons and Dany greeting him from her throne and refusing to use Jon's proper titles (but getting peeved when Jon didn't address her as queen). The use of all of Dany's "title" (most of which aren't actual titles and just things that she did along the way) in a pretty blatant effort to impress/intimidate Jon and get him to fall in line. Jon, on the other hand, didn't put on any airs. But neither did he back down. Dany made demands, while Jon tried to reason and explain what was really at stake. Jon had the best line, about Dany eventually ruling over a graveyard and I wonder how long it's going to take for the real facts of what the entire continent is facing to sink in.

And man... do their battle plans totally suck! They've lost every Westeros ally Dany could claim, and now the Unsullied are pretty much trapped. I have a feeling that Dany's next talk with Jon is going to be markedly different because it's no longer a case of him needing her more than she needs him. A little humility and willingness to bend and less "I'm the queen so obey me" is going to go a long way.

Cersi is doing a lot better than I expected and managed to give Dany some pretty crushing defeats. But she's broke and in hock up to her neck with the Iron Bank and has no real allies except for Euron. I'm expecting things to turn in the not too distant future. Especially once Dany decides that trying to invade without inflicting civilian casualties isn't going to work and takes off the gloves.

Count me is as one who's not totally buying the "Sansa is so clever" bit. I have no issue with her orders regarding their food stores, but knowing that the armor being made needs to be insulated for the cold? In what capacity has she ever had any kind of education or training when it comes to arms and armor? As others have said, it doesn't really work. And Littlefinger still creeping about and making trouble really isn't making Sansa look any smarter. She's certainly capable, but keeping around someone that's screwed her over and that she knows shouldn't be trusted just irks me.

Glad that Bran is back at Winterfell, though his reunion with Sansa was so emotionally detached that it's hard to feel any real joy at the Stark family starting to come together again after so long. Am eager for him to finally make the big revelation about Jon's true parentage, but I guess that we'll have to wait for Jon to return to Winterfell before that happens.

And my dear Queen of Thorns... she went out like a champ. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Hana Chan

[Macbeth]

It looks like it was Viserion with the red markings that buzzed Jon.  The dragon was too small for Drogon.  It would have been great if it had been Rhaegal, named after Dany's brother (Jon's father) that had buzzed him.

Nice to see that the Dothraki are appropriately dressed for Dragonstone.  No longer completely bare chested.  I could see fur and leather applied to their costumes to add warmth, but still left them their agility.

[Edith]

Melisandre never learn don't she? She proclaiming of uniting ice and fire at the same moment Jon says he's not a Stark and have a dragon flying over his head it's really telling.

One would think that after all the mess she made with Stannis, proclaiming he was AA because he born in Dragonstone and all that bla bla bla she used to say, she should investigate better the second time before announcing her statements.

Dany's speech about centuries of a Targaryen on the throne and a Stark as Warden of the North sounds more like reinventing the wheel than breaking it. 

And the part of being the best centuries the Seven Kingdoms have ever had? Sure, if you don't count a few civil wars, mad and ruthless kings, etc.

Also, Ned knowing about Robert trying to kill you when you were a baby? Did she know that Ellaria killed an innocent girl and the SS killed they own family? Yes, she did, but that didn't stop her for working with them...

Edited July 31, 2017 by Edith

[jcin617]

19 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

So let's see, the Tyrells and Dorne are done

House Tyrell and the Reach are out of play, as is House Martell, but Dorne itself and its army are still there.  The question is whether they still support Dany or are just going peace out and stick to themselves now.

[screamin]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

He made peace with the Wildlings to counter the threat of the WW. The NW for some reason thought that the Wildlings were a bigger threat than the WW, indicating that they really did not understand the gravity of the situation.

He does in the books. This is typical of how the show gives away Jon's book plots to Sansa to make her relevant on the show.  But I am sure as king, Jon would have kept an eye on the food stores or delegated someone to look into it.  Hell, that's why he left Sansa in charge - to take care of those things. Or are you suggesting that no one in WF though about the food stores until Sansa brought it up?

BTW, I must have missed it, but was there any mention of bringing up food from the Vale to the North? The Vale's food stores are a big plot point in the books.

Sansa knows that LF sided against Ned in KL which led to his imprisonment and death. She knows that he framed Tyrion and herself for Joffrey's murder. Knows that he murdered Lysa Arryn and manipulated his way to becoming Lord Protector of the Vale. She could easily convict him of treason and execute him with Royce's help.

Sansa knows that LF remained on friendly terms with Cersei after Ned's fall. She does NOT know that he actively baited Ned into a trap to help Cersei take him down. She was not present in the throne room when LF's Gold Cloaks turned on Ned's forces and LF held a knife to his throat. And the books explicitly say that no one - no servant, nobody - was allowed to talk to her afterwards. We see no inkling in show or books that she knows about that betrayal. So yes, it WILL be a reveal to hear about it.

Edited July 31, 2017 by screamin

[FnkyChkn34]

Re: the meeting of Ice and Fire.  

Jon may say "he's not a Stark" because that's not his last name, but it still doesn't mean he isn't the "ice."  He was raised in the North, he was Lord Commander of the ice wall, he's been beyond the wall and saw a lot that went on there, he lived with Wildlings and united the Wildlings under his control, etc. - and at the very least, he *IS* still half a Stark.  

[jeansheridan]

7 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

And I don't know if being detached like that is because he is a the three-eyed raven and has access to all this information, including what happened to his family, or if it's an acting choice. It just didn't hit the right notes with me. 

I am going with bad acting choice. I find Isaac really appealing but I don't think he has done much beyond the show. He seems really charming in RL and clearly he grew up handsome but maybe needs some more training. 

I find Sophie a bit of a blank. Not wooden but her face isn't super animated so seeing her with Brandon was funny because she was so girly with him. The way she sat, her eagerness.  

Plus I wanted it to be Arya so badly.

[Maximum Taco]

Just watched it this morning, gotta love a Monday off!

Thoughts

- Dany and her hypocrisy. "I'm really sorry about my dad, please don't judge me based on his actions. But I totally expect you to honour your ancestors promise from 300 years ago." Also did she really need Tyrion to convince her to give Jon Snow the worthless pile of glass in her basement? That's gotta be the easiest decision anyone ever made. Yes please take my garbage that you seem to value for reasons I don't understand, and be my friend!

- Is it wrong to root for Euron Greyjoy? Cause I find myself liking him an awful lot. He's just as much of a dick as Ramsay or Joffrey, but with a lot more charm. Man is that guy dangerous.

- Thank god we're done with the Dornish.

- Sansa is pretty good at general maintenance and practicality of the North in wintertime. She'd make a fairly capable peacetime QITN or Lady of Winterfell. It's a shame it isn't peacetime. 

- Bran is a dick. Is the show going to ruin one of my favourite characters? Well they already ruined Loras Tyrell so probably. I think this is a side effect of making Bran way too powerful. In the books he can only see through the Weirwoods, a powerful ability, no doubt, but in the show he's a freaking time lord.

Bran: I'm the three eyed raven.

Sansa: And that means...?

Bran: I KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL!

Sansa: Great! So you gonna tell us how to beat the White Walkers and what Cersei is planning?

Bran: No, instead I shall prove my power to you by making you relive the worst day of your life.

Sansa: Go to fucking hell Bran. You dick.

- The Lannisters got awfully good at this war thing. Abandoning their ancestral home and taking the actual rich kingdom whilst also burning the remainder of Dany's fleet and stranding her army of Unsullied on the other side of the continent. Hot damn, they struck several blows to Dany and now have the ability to pay back the Iron Bank to boot. I almost want to root for them.

- Imagine if Harry Potter was in the Citadel? "Congrats Harry for doing the impossible thing that no one else could do! Now do this busywork. What? You thought you'd be awarded the House Cup? No I'm not going to rob the good students of their achievements because you couldn't be bothered to follow orders. Your reward is avoiding expulsion!"

- Well played Olenna Tyrell. I am heartened that the show failed to take away your badassness and let you go out like a freaking boss, twisting the knife into Jaime and Cersei.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

36 minutes ago, Dev F said:

We saw him coopt the birds in King's Landing, but how would he turn -- or even know how to reach -- the ones in the rest of the realm? That doesn't seem like something Varys would leave behind documentation about, considering it's the entire basis of his value to anyone. 

No, the reason Stannis was so fucked is because a large portion of his army deserted after he burned Shireen. There should be a whole bunch of people who not only know but are highly motivated to tell the world about it to explain their disloyalty. 

I had forgotten about the defections.  You're right, people would talk though Varys's access to information would be a lot more restricted being on the run.

Edited July 31, 2017 by benteen

[Alapaki]

23 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

How could they do that without riders?  The dragons can't talk or relay information in any way.  And Missandei gave the reason why Dany can't ride them.

I've wondered since back when Dany first got to Slaver's Bay how she was going to control the Dragons.  I'd always suspected that a Stark would help her by warging into one or more of them.

But, yeah.  The inability to control the Dragons without putting the Queen at risk is a pretty serious flaw.

I do think, though, that the Dragons could be used to great psychological effect.  Seeing Dany and three Dragons buzzing a few holdfasts might discourage the Lords from joining up with Cersei if they believe she could never defeat that.

[FnkyChkn34]

19 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

- Is it wrong to root for Euron Greyjoy? Cause I find myself liking him an awful lot. He's just as much of a dick as Ramsay or Joffrey, but with a lot more charm. Man is that guy dangerous.

It might be wrong, but I'm still right there with you.  I kinda like the guy, but have no idea why; I shouldn't.

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Knowing that LF was on the Lannister side isn't the same as her knowing that LF betrayed Ned.  Tyrion, the Hound and the Tyrells were all on the Lannister side too.  Should she kill the Hound as soon as he shows up north?

So betraying someone is deserving of death, otherwise siding with the enemy is okay? Sansa keeps harping about how Ned was a fool. On what basis is she saying this?

As for the Hound, Tyrion etc. Sansa wanted to punish little children for their fathers siding with the enemy. But she does nothing to LF. So, no idea what she will do to the Hound...

5 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

And her Aunt was trying to kill her and would have if LF hadn't stopped her.  I don't see how she cares about Lyssa dying.

LF also manipulated her aunt into thinking that he loved her and then threw her down the moon door after saying that he never loved her and it was only her sister that he cared for. Which Sansa heard. She has seen how he manipulates her cousin.  And maybe Sansa does not care about Lysa dying, but the Vale Lords would.

5 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

And she may not blame LF for framing her, since he also helped her escape.

So you are saying that she just wants LF around because he helped her and that's what matters in the end.

The fact of the matter is that she knows a lot of the shit that LF has done and can be rid of him if she wants to. That she does not, means that she either likes having him around or she's an idiot.

38 minutes ago, screamin said:

Sansa knows that LF remained on friendly terms with Cersei after Ned's fall. She does NOT know that he actively baited Ned into a trap to help Cersei take him down.

Again, if this is the case, then on what basis is she calling Ned a fool?

Edited July 31, 2017 by anamika

[Edith]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Re: the meeting of Ice and Fire.  

Jon may say "he's not a Stark" because that's not his last name, but it still doesn't mean he isn't the "ice."  He was raised in the North, he was Lord Commander of the ice wall, he's been beyond the wall and saw a lot that went on there, he lived with Wildlings and united the Wildlings under his control, etc. - and at the very least, he *IS* still half a Stark.  

Jon is both. That he only has had the opportunity to connect with one side of his heritage does not negate the other. When he gets to ride a dragon, would that be enough to consider him fire too? 

I know the "I'm not Stark" comes from his bastard status but the whole scene has clues about his Targ side. Also don't forget that Westeros is patriarchy society and while he's a Stark, his father side is the one who prevails. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Edith

[screamin]

11 minutes ago, anamika said:

So betraying someone is deserving of death, otherwise siding with the enemy is okay?

Yes, actually? When Ned fell in KL, the highest attainment LF had achieved was Master of Coin. Aside from that he had all of one tiny tower surrounded by sheepshit on the fingers and maybe fifty inbred villagers to contribute to the Ned's cause. If Sansa is to consider him pre-emptively guilty and worthy of slaughter just because he didn't immediately toss aside his high position and oath to the crown and rally his tiny population against the Lannisters, then so is Davos worthy of slaughter for staying faithful to Stannis, who was also the enemy to the King in the North (remember Melisandre's leech spell against Robb), and every Northern lord who sat idly at the sidelines during the battle of the Bastards. If the Starks count every person who ever stood with the status quo and didn't immediately participate in their rebellion, they'd have to get rid of the Vale Lords too, who sided with the Lannisters during the war...they can't be too purist about this.

Edited July 31, 2017 by screamin

[DarkRaichu]

So many light moments in this episode:
- Jon's interaction with Tyrion
- This is Jon Snow.... King of the North :D :D :D
- Dany called out Tyrion for trying to pass his opinion as ancient wisdom
- Jorah's deadpan cluelessness regarding his cure and the Archmeister's answer:  "the climate huh?" LOL
 

QUESTIONS:
- Can anyone explain how Euron was able to go south to ambush Yara (on the way to Dorne), went back north to KL for his hero welcome, go south ALL THE WAY AROUND the south of the continent and up to Casterly Rock in LESS TIME than Gery Worm who went directly from Dragonstone to CR ??????  Aside from Jetpacks and teleporters :P  Seriously this took me out of the episode...

- Where the heck is Ghost???? Is he supposed to be in Jon's ship or did Jon left him to guard Sansa in Winterfell??

- Where the hell are these 40,000 Dothrakis and their HORSES ? We saw how big Dothraki's encampment was last season and Dragonstone is not that big :P

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

It might be wrong, but I'm still right there with you.  I kinda like the guy, but have no idea why; I shouldn't.

The appeal of Euron is that he completely incapable of hypocrisy, in a way thar even the most honestly self aware other characters are not. He cannot utter anything which is not an expression of completely joyous id, as opposed to even, say, Ramsey, who could be cowed at times by Roose.

[Uncle JUICE]

I know this is Westeros time, but for shit's sake, can someone explain how much time is passing between some of these scenes? In consecutive scenes for the character:

 

• Euron and his ENTIRE fleet built from trees that didn't exist wherever he was as someone else pointed out, goes from some point on the sea between Dragonstone (off the northeast coast of Westeros, north of KL) and Dorne (extreme SE of Westeros), to King's Landing (which according to the map is on the central east coast of Westeros).
• RETURNS to KL with the gift, so he either caught the fleet right outside of Dragonstone and Blackwater Bay (which seems unlikely given that they were taken by surprise, having a fleet that size lurking too close is a way to get spotted and then roasted by dragons)
• Then shows up in the waters off of Casterly Rock, which is on the WEST COAST of Westeros, necessitating his sailing from King's Landing, through the Arm, around the south coast of Westeros, then past Highgarden and Old Town to Casterly Rock...all JUST in time to get there right behind the Unsullied?

 

That seems like it'd take six weeks!

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

 

QUESTIONS:
- Can anyone explain how Euron was able to go south to ambush Yara (on the way to Dorne), went back north to KL for his hero welcome, go south ALL THE WAY AROUND the south of the continent and up to Casterly Rock in LESS TIME than Gery Worm who went directly from Dragonstone to CR ??????  Aside from Jetpacks and teleporters :P  Seriously this took me out of the episode...

 

DANG IT! :) Just asked this in a much less succinct way!

[Maximum Taco]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

So many light moments in this episode:
- Jon's interaction with Tyrion
- This is Jon Snow.... King of the North :D :D :D
- Dany called out Tyrion for trying to pass his opinion as ancient wisdom
- Jorah's deadpan cluelessness regarding his cure and the Archmeister's answer:  "the climate huh?" LOL

Don't forget Euron asking Jaime if Cersei likes a finger in the bum.

[Captain Stable]

Daeny: "I could let Drogon flame Euron's navy, but we have no idea where to start looking for it..."

 

HE'S SAILED PAST YOU THREE TIME NOW!

 

Three Time!

 

(Once to go to Kings Landing and tell Cersie he'll get her a present (although that was possibly before Dany got to Dragonstone), again on his way out of Blackwater to hijack Yara and finally back to KL!)

[Triskan]

"They just like severed heads, really."

Euron, summing up the rotten people of KL in one very fine line. 

[anamika]

25 minutes ago, screamin said:

Yes, actually? When Ned fell in KL, the highest attainment LF had achieved was Master of Coin. Aside from that he had all of one tiny tower surrounded by sheepshit on the fingers and maybe fifty inbred villagers to contribute to the Ned's cause. If Sansa is to consider him pre-emptively guilty and worthy of slaughter just because he didn't immediately toss aside his high position and oath to the crown and rally his tiny population against the Lannisters, then so is Davos worthy of slaughter for staying faithful to Stannis, who was also the enemy to the King in the North (remember Melisandre's leech spell against Robb), and every Northern lord who sat idly at the sidelines during the battle of the Bastards. If the Starks count every person who ever stood with the status quo and didn't immediately participate in their rebellion, they'd have to get rid of the Vale Lords too, who sided with the Lannisters during the war...they can't be too purist about this.

But the Lannisters were the enemy the Starks were fighting against for killing their father. Not Stannis or any other king. Ned supported Stannis - he wanted Stannis on the throne. Last episode, Sansa called both the Targaryens and Tyrion untrustworthy.  LF supported the Lannisters over 4 seasons and Joffrey on the throne. He was not a neutral bystander like many of the Northern houses. That's why he got send to the Vale by Tywin- to get more support for the Lannisters.  Sansa wanted to punish the children of those who sided against the Starks during the battle of the bastards - not even their actual enemies - those people were already dead. She wanted their children punished - but LF? Who she knows has constantly manipulated and betrayed people including her aunt? Yeah, no punishment for him for siding against her family.

The Vale Lords again sat out the battle because Lysa did not want her men to die for Robb's war. Same as some of the Northern houses. They did not support the Lannisters. LF did. That's the difference.

And again, if Sansa is unaware of the treachery Ned faced in KL, why does she call him a fool?

Edited July 31, 2017 by anamika

[screamin]

Thinking it over, I've decided I'm officially hostile to the showrunners' notion of Bran's total omniscence. It seems to be a get-out-of-jail free card to just allow Bran to come up with any information wanted at any given time, without real limits or need for investigation or proof. It smacks to me of lazy writing.

[Conotocarious]

I thought it was fairly obvious the reunion was going to be with Bran and not Arya based on the previews before the show. That was a rather large hint he'd be in the show last night and not her.

But it was a very muted reunion, with Bran being pretty creepy. However, I don't expect joyous reunions in this story, or for those to last very long, in any case.

[Normades]

Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but I LOVED Euron's victorious ride through the streets of KL and into the throne room while Cersei sits on the iron throne.  It was just like Tywin riding in after the Battle of the Blackwater victoriously while Cersei was sitting on the iron throne with little Tommen on her lap.  So cool!  I really loved Euron in this episode.  He knows how to play the villain with gusto!!

I have to wonder if Bran bringing up Sansa and her wedding night is some kind of foreshadowing.  I know there was discussion of a possible pregnancy from Ramsay.  Are we far enough out in time for that to be impossible?  I just feel that there must be some reason for him to bring up that particular memory and it's not just because Sansa looked pretty in her gown.

[mac123x]

52 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Bran is a dick. Is the show going to ruin one of my favourite characters? Well they already ruined Loras Tyrell so probably. I think this is a side effect of making Bran way too powerful. In the books he can only see through the Weirwoods, a powerful ability, no doubt, but in the show he's a freaking time lord.

Bran: I'm the three eyed raven.

Sansa: And that means...?

Bran: I KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL!

Sansa: Great! So you gonna tell us how to beat the White Walkers and what Cersei is planning?

Bran: No, instead I shall prove my power to you by making you relive the worst day of your life.

Thinking about it, was this their first interaction on the show?  Sansa left Winterfell in Episode 2, and Bran was still comatose.  I don't recall them doing anything together in the pilot, certainly not speaking to each other.  It'll be nice when Arya finally shows up:  Sansa: "Oh, hey, a reunion with someone I've actually shared screen time with."

 

10 minutes ago, Captain Stable said:

Daeny: "I could let Drogon flame Euron's navy, but we have no idea where to start looking for it..."

 

HE'S SAILED PAST YOU THREE TIME NOW!

 

Three Time!

 

(Once to go to Kings Landing and tell Cersie he'll get her a present (although that was possibly before Dany got to Dragonstone), again on his way out of Blackwater to hijack Yara and finally back to KL!)

Four times, though I agree with you that he may have arrived in KL the first time before Dany landed on Dragonstone.

1.  Into King's Landing to meet Cercei

2.  Out to attack Yara

3.  Triumphant return to KL

4. Out again to chase down and destroy Greyworm's transport

 

I guess I can maybe handwave that away because, in the books at least, it's possible to leave the bay without passing within sight of Dragonstone.  When Tyrion sent her to Dorne, he gave directions to Myrcella's escorting ships to hug the coast and stay out of range of Stannis's fleet around the island.

 

Maybe there's some network of worm-holes leading from Blackwater Bay to various plot-relevant locations around Westeros.  Next week, Euron shows up at Eastwatch by the Sea.

[jcin617]

11 minutes ago, screamin said:

Thinking it over, I've decided I'm officially hostile to the showrunners' notion of Bran's total omniscence. It seems to be a get-out-of-jail free card to just allow Bran to come up with any information wanted at any given time, without real limits or need for investigation or proof. It smacks to me of lazy writing.

I think it depends on how they use it on the show; if it's just to reveal Jon's lineage and expose Littlefinger's treachery then I find it acceptable, as there just aren't enough shows left, or people alive, to otherwise tie up those threads.   It makes his journey to becoming the three-eyed raven relevant to the story and plot.   If he becomes a magic eight ball for everything, then yeah, he becomes a story crutch.

[Helena Dax]

I refuse to believe that the first scene with Jon and Dany might mean that she's some sort of entitled brat who will be forced to admit that the noble and humble Jon is the rightful king of Westeros. Don't get me wrong: as Rhaegar's son, I guess the Throne is his and I'm not against that. But I despise the "entitled brat/humble Jon" narrative. In the first place, it isn't true. If she is where she is now it's because she was strong, brave and resourceful. And let's not forget Jon's behaviour when he got to the Wall and saw the other guys didn't know how to fight. And in the second place, if that were the writers' intentions, the gender dynamics would be quite irritating so I really hope it's not.

I'm not really a Jon/Dany shipper. If they end up together, ruling together, it's fine. If they don't, then I guess I want Jon as King in the North and Dany as Queen of Westeros. Since Jon is a Targaryen, Dani wouldn't feel her family has lost part of their land. But anyway, the last thing I want is Jon Snow teaching Dany a lesson in entitlement.  No, thanks.

Euron is Ramsay on drugs and to me he feels like the kind of character the writers would like to be when they feel naughty. 

Cersei surprised me. What she had planned for Ellaria and her daughter was awful, but not as awful as I expected. But oh, the Dorne storyline... What a mess. Whe Cersei asked why they killed Myrcella, I'm sure Ellaria didn't know it either.

Jaime is such a disappointment.... That's why I loved his face when lady Olenna told him she was behind Joffrey's death. I really thought for a while that he could be redeemable, but I'm done with him.

[FnkyChkn34]

27 minutes ago, Edith said:

Jon is both. That he only have had the opportunity to conect with one side of his heritage doesn't negate the other. When he gets to ride a dragon, would that be enough to consider him fire too? 

I know the "I'm not Stark" comes from his bastard status but the whole scene has clues about his Targ side. Also don't forget that Westeros is patriarchy society and while he's a Stark, his father side is the one who prevails. 

Of course he's both.  And maybe I'm reading the comments wrong, but I feel like a lot of people are trying to say he's not a Stark at all, and therefore not "ice" at all.  

I'm merely pointing out that maybe we should also consider nurture vs. nature - in the patriarchal society, he isn't really a Stark, but he was *raised* as a Stark.  

[maystone]

I'll cut Bran some slack for being distant and detached when he met up with Sansa. The kid has the weight of the world on his shoulders partly through his own doing. He screwed up and caused not only the death of the prior TER, but he also opened a portal of sorts that allowed the Night King and the undead to pass into the occupied north. He's not even sure how his powers work; I'd say that everything else is just a distraction, as upsetting as that is for those who love him. And I include Meera in that group.

Euron isn't with the Ironborn fleet that attacked the Unsullied at Casterly Rock. Also, someone asked earlier why they didn't just attack Dany's ships in open ocean: it's much more effective to trap her fleet in the bay where they can't maneuver.

I agree that Sam looking through those ancient scrolls will lead to some valuable info on the last war against the Night King at the very least. I think that maybe the Archmaester knew exactly what he was doing by assigning that task to Sam.

The thing that struck me most about Cersei's revenge against Ellaria (outside of the stellar acting by all involved) was how specific it was to Cersei's particular fixation about Myrcella's death: that she was going to decay, that her beautiful child would become a loathsome mass of rotting matter. She said that's all she could think about when her mother died, too. So what Cersei could only imagine is what she's condemning Ellaria to experience in real time. I have no sympathy for Ellaria, but damn …

I really like the whole episode. Well, I could have done without Euron. I know he's necessary to the story, but I hate how he's written and acted. But everything else was great. I'm going to miss Olenna like crazy, but it was one hell of an exit, and I'm so happy that Diana Rigg got to show how extraordinary she still is.

[screamin]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

But the Lannisters were the enemy the Starks were fighting against for killing their father. Not Stannis or any other king. Ned supported Stannis - he wanted Stannis on the throne. LF supported the Lannisters over 4 seasons and Joffrey on the throne. He was not a neutral bystander like many of the Northern houses - he was supporting the Lannisters. That's why he got send to the Vale - with Lannister support.  Sansa wanted to punish the children of those who sided against the Starks during the battle of the bastards - not even their actual enemies - those people were already dead. She wanted their children punished - but LF? Who she knows has constantly manipulated and betrayed people including her aunt? Yeah, no punishment for him for siding against her family.

The Vale Lords again sat out the battle because Lysa did not want her men to die for Robb's war. Same as some of the Northern houses. They did not support the Lannisters. LF did. That's the difference.

And again, if Sansa is unaware of the treachery Ned faced in KL, why does she call him a fool?

Ned died, and Stannis turned on The King in the North as a mere rebel against his rightful rule, and had his sorceress make a spell to kill Robb. If 'once friendly with the enemy, always executable' is doctrine, then it applies to Davos, who should be executed for serving Stannis who was the enemy of the King in the North. It applies to the Vale lords, who held fealty to the Lannisters during Robb's rebellion. It applies to Tyrion. But Sansa and everyone else also takes into account how all these people helped them in the past despite their former fealties to the enemy in judging them. LF helped Jon and Sansa; it would be weird NOT to count that in his favor when judging him for not immediately joining Ned in what looked like a hopeless challenge to the throne in KL. If they try to avenge everyone who has ever been on a different side at SOME point in the wars, they'd have few supporters left.

An active betrayal, however, is a different matter. LF might not be faulted for passively not joining Ned in a palace rebellion in KL against Joffrey that seemed doomed to failure. He certainly could be faulted if it were known that he actively encouraged Ned to rebel at every step, helped him gather the evidence that led to the rebellion, AND promised he'd bribe the Gold Cloaks into taking Ned's side so that Ned's palace coup would succeed - all while giving Ned's plan away to the Lannisters and ordering the Gold Cloaks to take their side so that the Lannisters would have ample evidence to condemn Ned for open treason. THAT is a crime that goes above and beyond merely passively sitting and watching Ned get arrested and continue working your job for the crown.

[Lady Iris]

I just about hee'd and hah'd myself to pieces when Tyrion made his "walking dead" comment. That was good. Love me my Tyrion! Plus may I just say Peter Dinklage's voice is like buttah.

[Macbeth]

15 minutes ago, screamin said:

Thinking it over, I've decided I'm officially hostile to the showrunners' notion of Bran's total omniscence. It seems to be a get-out-of-jail free card to just allow Bran to come up with any information wanted at any given time, without real limits or need for investigation or proof. It smacks to me of lazy writing.

Unfortunately Bran's visions are book cannon.  I never liked Bran's story line once I saw he was destined to become a tree. 

As for his omniscience - a great deal of his information would have been a great deal more useful way earlier in the show.  Now it's just like "Thank Bran for reminding me about my rape.  If only you had showed up before I made the choice to marry Ramsay."