S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[Growsonwalls]

I know I;m sounding like a broken record but the Jaime of the books' main redeeming feature is that despite all of Cersei and Tywin's manipulations Jamie loved Tyrion and Tyrion loves Jaime. Despite family politics these two adore each other, always have, always will. To have them written so separately in the show tears apart one of the most compelling bonds in the book and makes Jamie so much lesser of a character.

With that being said Jaime's last scene with Oleanna proved that he still has a glimmer of humanity in him.

One thing about the show that's sort of bothered me is that brutal villains like Cersei and Ramsay are both fetishized and condemned. The show can't seem to make up its mind about whether to admire their ability to do whatever it takes to stay in power or condemn them for their brutality. As it is, Cersei scenes (like Ramsay scenes) have become torture porn. i hope before the series ends that either they have a fairly enlightened ruler in Dany/Jon/Tyrion/Sansa (doesn't matter which, all of them are better than Cersei) or they just have Cersei annihilating the competition and proving her credo "power is power." I'm tired of this "oh my god they are awful but let's have 10 minutes of torture porn" stuff.

[Shimmergloom]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

ETA:  But also, if the show aired every single minute detail, including how people travel and days where they are just twiddling their thumbs while sailing on a ship, then we'd probably be able to read the published books before the show finished. :-)  They just can't show everything.

I don't think that's the issue entirely.  You don't have to show the minutia.  For instance, Bran/Meera show up at the wall at the start of episode 1, then show up at Winterfell near the end of episode 3.  That's acceptable travel time, without showing the minutia of Bran/Meera's travel. 

The issue is that Euron was at KL in the first 3rd of this episode and then on the other side of the continent at the end of the episode.  That is 'teleporting' and takes you out of the story.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Again - while this episode really delivered the goods, it was yet another big win for Cersei and I'm sick to death of it. I keep hearing "Oh, well, they have to give her some wins so it's more even, more competitive," blah blah blah. But Cersei always wins.  She wins ever damn week.

She has lost all 3 children though and was forced to walk naked through the streets.  I do hate how once again, just like in the War of the 5 Kings, the Lannisters are assaulted and surrounded on all sides and then still seem to be able to win battles and wars with a seemingly inexhaustible army.

50 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Admittedly tyrion 's plans are way too smart for their own good, but why does Jamie seem to know those plans. Especially  since com on sense would dictate  that they would be attacking kings landing?

At some point you wonder if Dany will start to think he's a traitor and really still loyal to the Lannisters.

31 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

Bran spoke of Sansa's "white wedding dress"; I could be wrong, but didn't she wear a gold dress at her Bolton wedding? Is Bran seeing the future?

 

https://youtu.be/WdMCeFQ56bU  There's the youtube of the wedding.  Her dress looks white to me, unless this is a gold dress/blue dress situation.

[Pogojoco]

Yeah, it looks like a winter white wool dress with fur detailing- very Queen of Winter. It might have gold detailing or some gold thread in it. 

 

As for the Cersei/Jamie stuff after the Olenna reveal- her sleeping with other people might finally bust them up (which is straight from the book), also maybe Cersei still wanting to punish Tyrion for killing Joffrey and now Jamie knows, for sure, that it wasn't Tyrion- might bust them up. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Pogojoco

[Dev F]

14 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

And one of my favourite details from the book is the looks of the Stark children- Arya and Jon look like Starks (dark hair, grey eyes) more than the other four. Arya looking like Lyanna was a tell that Lyanna is Jon's mother. Anyway, it's a bit of an irritant for Catelyn that Ned's bastard son looks more like a Stark than four of her true born children, with their red Tully hair. Sansa's the only one in the show that has it.

Part of that is an accident of casting they couldn't have anticipated, though. In the early seasons Bran also had more of a Tully look, with fair, delicate features and a bit lighter hair, but the actor's puberty knocked that right out.

[rozen]

15 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

And Catelyn  training included knowing about armors? 

Actually, it wasn't unusual for women to have to run the defense of their keep because their husbands and fighting men would be out in the field. That, and the North is more battle ready in general compared to the South. So yes, I except Catelyn gave all the girls extensive lessons in that area.

[Pogojoco]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

Part of that is an accident of casting they couldn't have anticipated, though. In the early seasons Bran also had more of a Tully look, with fair, delicate features and a bit lighter hair, but the actor's puberty knocked that right out.

Absolutely- and I think they sort of reddened Richard Madden's hair a bit, made it auburn. Or it might just be like that. Rickon was straight up blond, so he' was probably a secret Lannister.  And yeah, puberty. I'm actually shocked Sansa didn't say something about him being tall. This is what he looked like the last time she saw him. Completely different. 

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, rozen said:

Actually, it wasn't unusual for women to have to run the defense of their keep because their husbands and fighting men would be out in the field. That, and the North is more battle ready in general compared to the South. So yes, I except Catelyn gave all the girls extensive lessons in that area.

Considering her father seemed to endlessly preach "Winter is Coming", I don't doubt she overheard Ned telling her brothers about Northern armoring to accommodate the cold of winter.

[GrailKing]

19 hours ago, screamin said:

Jorah's cure was so annoying. So the magic salve, besides curing grayscale, ALSO causes having the skin peeled off large areas of your body to be healed overnight? And the maester can tell that Sam is NOT infected with greyscale after one freakin' day of observation? No worry about an incubation period? No quarantine? Nothing? How nice that treating greyscale turned out to be so ridiculously easy to manage after all. Bleah.

Time's not linear here, I don't think it's overnight ( MHO ).

Sam did make it a point to say he followed the instructions,maybe the others did not ?

[Andromeda]

I realized last night that Jon is not really cut out for practical leadership. He's a big-picture guy, but he's always running off to do a thing, leaving day-to-day management to other people. Sansa is more like a boss, taking care of day-to-day realm management. Jon gets a "calling" (dealing with Wildlings, heading north of the wall, personally going to see Dany instead of sending an emissary, generally running hither and yon) and off he goes, single-minded in the extreme. He is starting to remind me of Ned, but not in a good way.

Not that I didn't LOVE LOVE LOVE the meeting of ice and fire, and I'm so excited he'll be staying there for awhile. I hope he's there when the learns what Bran found out. I want to see him interact more with Dany! They're both so young. And cute.

Sad about Olena, but I loved the period on the end of that sentence (who really killed Joffrey) and how she waited until she was assured of an easy death before telling him. Perfect.She's lucky the poison was slow-acting!

I felt only a little bad about the sand snake and her mama -- until I recalled how utterly brutal they both were. Mom killed Alexander Siddig and I will never forgive that. And the sand snakes were always bloodthirsty, like the way they killed that merchant just for delivering the wrong message and having the wrong contacts. Monsters all. I only care about how it will affect Khaleesi!

Edited July 31, 2017 by Andromeda

[that one guy]

Add me to the list of people a little put off by the weird treatment of time this season. Last episode, Euron attacked Yara's fleet, presumably just outside Blackwater Bay. Since then, he returned to King's Landing and his fleet caught up to Unsullied at Casterly Rock. (I REFUSE to believe Euron is on board the Silence when it's seen with the fleet off the Westerlands. There's no way he sailed back to King's Landing, dropped off Cersei's prizes, turned around and sailed back out of the Blackwater, around Westeros, and caught up with the Unsullied on the very day they attacked the rock. If he was THAT fast, why didn't he just catch the Unsullied at sea and sink them? - OK, possibly he didn't want to risk going hand to hand with them, he loses fewer men this way. But still.) Sailing around Westeros was not quick, because in that time, Jon was able to make it all the way from Winterfell to Dragonstone, going first by land to White Harbor, then by sea to Dragonstone, somehow not running into any of the Ironborn ships which should be blockading the bay.

But it took roughly the same amount of time for Bran to get to Winterfell from the Wall, and Arya still hasn't made Winterfell from the vicinity of the Twins. Travel by land is slower, you say? Not for Jaime Lannister, who travels across the Reach to meet his forces heading east from Casterly Rock, turns around and attacks Highgarden from the West! Obviously the end of this episode is several weeks after the end of Stormborn. But Jon gets to Dragonstone quicker than news of Yara's defeat? How is that possible? I used to be annoyed that GRRM wasted so much time getting travel times right at the expense of a good story, but this time the fact that time didn't seem to be moving at the same pace everywhere really bothered me. In the past the show's been pretty good at these things. On rewatch, it's clear that one of the early episodes of Season 6 (maybe ep 3 or 4) is about three months long. Everybody starts long journeys at the beginning of the episode and finishes them at the end. But since that was true for every storyline, it was fine. I felt like, in the interest of having dramatic cliffhangers, they stretched the Season 5 arcs out over the first few episodes of Season 6, and there was a mid-episode "Year in Baltar's Hair" kind of deal. But this one kind of stretched credulity.

Having said that, I guess they just didn't want to fill the time with, well, filler. Because the plot points were great. I actually like it that Jon and Dany didn't have instant chemistry and in fact didn't really like each other. From Dany's point of view, Jon sounds like a crazy person. It would be out of character for her to believe him. And Jon - frankly it would be out of character for him to even be articulate, you know? But he had the best line of the episode:

Dany: [something like] "everyone love to do what they're good at."

Jon: "I don't."

Which I loved, because what he's good at is fighting, and he hates it. What he's not good at is diplomacy and persuasion. And right now he has no reason to be impressed by Dany either. She doesn't understand what she's gotten herself into, and is getting her ass kicked at the moment. Everybody should listen to Sansa re: Cersei. "She's a disease. I regret my part in spreading it." If Olenna had to go out, at least she went out like a boss. 

  1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Admittedly tyrion 's plans are way too smart for their own good, but why does Jamie seem to know those plans. Especially  since com on sense would dictate  that they would be attacking kings landing?

I was thinking about the possibility of mounting a rescue of Yara or assassination of Cersei using the tunnels Tyrion and Arya used to escape the Red Keep at various times, when I realized that, having helped Tyrion escape, Jaime knew all about them and would have them guarded. It's not a big stretch to think that Jaime always knew about Tyrion's secret route into Casterly Rock as well, or that Tyrion in his arrogance didn't realize it.  The problem with siblings at the head of opposing armies is that they know each other pretty well. I'm not a great chess player, but I acquit myself okay against my son (who plays competitively) because I know him a lot better than I know the game. Jaime predicted Tyrion's moves because they were so very Tyrion.

Edited July 31, 2017 by that one guy

[Tikichick]

I think we have to leave a little room for Jon likely having an ability to evade whatever patrols might have been out there on the seas.  The ability being none other than Ser Davos, who was known to be quite a seaman and smuggler in previous days.

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, screamin said:

Only if he did it in front of a weirwood tree...

Actually, no;  in books we're told, he gets so powerful he needs no trees.

[tennisgurl]

I'll have more to say later, but for now...NOOOOOOOES Olenna! At least she died as she lived: Being snarky and dropping truth bombs. 

[KungFuBunny]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Actually, no;  in books we're told, he gets so powerful he needs no trees.

Doesn't Bran see his father get executed in one of his visions? There was no weirwood tree near the execution platform

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, KungFuBunny said:

Doesn't Bran see his father get executed in one of his visions? There was no weirwood tree near the execution platform

H see's much, can't remember Ned, but he see's Sansa crying, people hovering over her and Arya, Jamie or Brienne, the Hound protecting them etc. been a while since I read books; but he doesn't need trees.

[KungFuBunny]

21 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I realized last night that Jon is not really cut out for practical leadership. He's a big-picture guy, but he's always running off to do a thing, leaving day-to-day management to other people. Sansa is more like a boss, taking care of day-to-day realm management. Jon gets a "calling" (dealing with Wildlings, heading north of the wall, personally going to see Dany instead of sending an emissary, generally running hither and yon) and off he goes, single-minded in the extreme. He is starting to remind me of Ned, but not in a good way.

Not that I didn't LOVE LOVE LOVE the meeting of ice and fire, and I'm so excited he'll be staying there for awhile. I hope he's there when the learns what Bran found out. I want to see him interact more with Dany! They're both so young. And cute.

Sad about Olena, but I loved the period on the end of that sentence (who really killed Joffrey) and how she waited until she was assured of an easy death before telling him. Perfect.She's lucky the poison was slow-acting!

I felt only a little bad about the sand snake and her mama -- until I recalled how utterly brutal they both were. Mom killed Alexander Siddig and I will never forgive that. And the sand snakes were always bloodthirsty, like the way they killed that merchant just for delivering the wrong message and having the wrong contacts. Monsters all. I only care about how it will affect Khaleesi!

She drank that poison quickly and then told Jaime the truth about the poisoning of Jeoffrey. I think she wanted to die quickly from the poison or by Jaime slitting her throat in anger before one of his people runs in and tells him the silos of grain are empty and the gold is gone.

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Re: Sansa

Tyrion: She's smarter than she lets on

Jon: She's starting to let on

Tyrion : GOOD!

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

This conversation was so stupid.

Dany essentially did the same thing at Mereen and now suddenly it's too dangerous?

Flying and attacking a stationary fleet that was caught by surprise is very different from searching the seas for an alert fleet with skilled sailors. 

[maystone]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Was there any glimpse of Meera at Winterfell?

Yes, she was shown standing at the head of the wagon carrying Bran. There was a brief close-up of her looking stressed and worried. So, you know, normal.

3 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

Who's running the Riverlands now that all the Frey's are dead?

I thought that the Lannisters were back in charge. When Arya bumped into the traveling boy band, didn't they say that they had been at Riverrun?

[TwistedandBored]

19 hours ago, Francie said:

My big takeaway this episode:

Davos counters Daenerys's lame ass "titles, titles, titles" with Jon Snow's actual accomplishments.

But Dany did earn many of those titles. They are her "actual accomplishments". She is Mother of Dragons (She birth 3 Dragons), Khaleesi of the Dothraki, Breaker of Chains (freed slaves), Unburnt (Self explanatory really), and she does see herself the rightful heir and ruler just like many others have. 

I know Jon has accomplish a lot too but let us not take away what Daenerys herself has accomplished as well. 

[Neko]

I think Olenna was one of the saddest deaths on this show.  There is something so depressing about watching a sharp, powerful woman lose everything and resign herself to her fate, even if she does it in a badass way.  Diana Rigg really sold it when she told Jaime she lost because she lacked the imagination to battle a monster like Cersei.  Oof.

Speaking of Jaime, what is he smoking to think Cersei gives a crap about building a better world for the common folk?  I know, they're painting Jaime as a lovesick puppy, but goddamn, buy a clue.  Once she destroys her current enemies, she'll only find new ones.  Did all those talks about they are the only two people in the world who matter mean nothing to him?

I really liked the Varys/Melisandre scene, and Dany/Jon went exactly the way I expected it to, so I wasn't disappointed.  Of course Dany would not budge an inch the first time she met Jon.  They aren't going to make anything easy this final season.  I was okay with it.

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa giving instructions on how to make armor was the funniest thing ever. At least she is finally doing something after 6 seasons instead of pointlessly nagging other characters about shit she does not know.

LF: Cersei is dangerous. Sansa: She killed my family. I know how dangerous she is.

She likes doling out unsolicited advice but is not good at taking it. Maybe now she knows how Jon feels when she talks about Cersei being dangerous. Jon knows, Sansa! He just thinks that the threat from the North is more immediate.

20 hours ago, sweetcookieface said:

13 years in WF, I'm sure she learned to run a house, I'm sure she had Robb,Jon even Dad explained the Armor.

She knows how to use advice given to her, she's still alive.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

H see's much, can't remember Ned, but he see's Sansa crying, people hovering over her and Arya, Jamie or Brienne, the Hound protecting them etc. been a while since I read books; but he doesn't need trees.

I just glanced through Dance With Dragons. If Bran had any vision of a past that did not take place near a heart tree, I didn't see it. The show is, of course, another beast.

[Constantinople]

I don't have a problem with Daenerys's sense of entitlement.  That's how medieval royalty thought.  It would be unrealistic if she didn't think that way.

As for Jon, perhaps he didn't seek power, but back in the Season 2 premier Lord Commander Mormont asked Jon "Do you want to lead some day?".  Jon responded by nodding yes.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

I just glanced through Dance With Dragons. If Bran had any vision of a past that did not take place near a heart tree, I didn't see it. The show is, of course, another beast.

Blood Raven tells Bran as he gets stronger, he will not need Weirwood trees, or any trees : meaning he can warg animals,people etc.

[DarkRaichu]

33 minutes ago, maystone said:

I thought that the Lannisters were back in charge. When Arya bumped into the traveling boy band, didn't they say that they had been at Riverrun?

Ed Sheeran & co were traveling to Riverrun 

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Didn't Marcella die relatively  soon after being kissed?

I wonder if Yara got her tongue cut out. Esp since she's a euron hostage.

maybe why Quyburn mentioned person's health, the Snakes probably built up some resistance with the use of poisons.

I wonder too, they kept her quiet through the scene.

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

NOOOOOOOES Olenna! At least she died as she lived: Being snarky and dropping truth bombs. 

My aspiration is to exit this world the way she did - drinking wine and talking shit to my enemies.

[TarotQueen]

Jon has ambition and confidence in his own abilities.  He's like Dany in that regard.  But his ambitions are much more modest than hers are, which is where the humility ideal springs from, and his shyness (or maybe just introversion) to speak about himself also adds to that impression as opposed to Daenerys more direct and expressed goals.

These are rich complex characters.  Its fun to judge them and argue about it but they're not nearly as simple as we make them sometimes ... 

[TaurusRose]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I think Dany has the ruthlessness, so does LF ( but he wait at the sideline for the victor ) Jon could get the people and he has other's in his corner, but Sansa; Sansa knows Cersei even better then LF or even Cersei herself does this become Sansa VS Cersei, does Jamie and Brienne sides with Sansa? 

Damn? where's that book.

Maybe this is book canon and proven long after I quit reading, but other than Sansa's say so I really haven't encountered this great knowledge of Cersei on screen. Cersei despised Sansa, took great pleasure in abusing and tormenting a child, and Sansa spent a great deal of energy trying to stay out of her way.  Does she know what makes Cersei tick?  I doubt it.  The woman is insane and monstrous. I repeat, as long as Sansa allows LF to circle her like she's a plump pigeon, her intelligence is in question. Which brings me to Cersei and why I don't give 2 fucks about her Mrycella grief.  Mrycella was in the same situation Sansa was in, but she was treated with respect and affection by the Dornish while Cersei stood around sucking on wine and smirking whenever Sansa suffered at her or Joffrey's hands. Payback is a bitch. I have no sympathy for Cersei or Ellaria. 

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I know I;m sounding like a broken record but the Jaime of the books' main redeeming feature is that despite all of Cersei and Tywin's manipulations Jamie loved Tyrion and Tyrion loves Jaime. 

 

And this is why it doesn't make sense to me that Jamie would believe Cersei's narrative.  He, of all people, should have known better.  He really is pussy whipped and worthless.  

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

Bran has returned. And doesn’t that put a spanner in Littlefinger’s plans?  A Stark who supersedes Sansa’s claim to Winterfell. Hah!

It does, but LF doesn't know Bran doesn't want it;  just like he doesn't know Bran is all knowing.

[LanceM]

I have a question. If it does not matter what "skeleton" sits on the Iron Throne when the army of the dead start killing everybody in sight then why should it matter who is king of the north?  Why shouldn't Jon kneel? It seems to me that he is putting his own ambitions ahead of the big picture as much as Dany.

Edited August 1, 2017 by LanceM

[blackwing]

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Aside from picking a terrible vision to share with Sansa, Bran was a little over dramatic.

It's not that difficult to explain the three-eyed Raven or that Bran became the three-eyed raven after the previous one died.

Yes.  I couldn't care less about Bran, never have, never will.  I don't care for the actor at all, he is terrible.  I'm sure his affect was in the script, but there's no good reason why he couldn't explain to his sister, who he hasn't seen in years, what is going on.   She is expecting a happy reunion with her brother and he doesn't even bother to tell her what happened to him and instead says "yo sis, I saw you get raped" and creeps her out.

I get that Missandei said that Daenerys might get struck by an arrow if she were riding her dragon, as if that's supposed to be the explanation for why she can't bring her dragons into the fight.  She has actual fire breathing dragons.  Why aren't they being used?  She gets word that Yara and Ellaria are taken by Euron.  Her reaction was more or less, "oh well, sucks to be them".   Was there not an ounce of concern for Olenna?   Maybe she should have sent scouts or somebody to check on her.  Why not tell her dragons to go and burn Euron's ships or Lannister armies?  I thought the dragons have some intelligence and listen to her.

I find it hard to believe that Olenna Tyrell would get taken so easily.  She supposedly had her army join with Dorne to advance on KL, but no way would this strategic mastermind leave herself completely undefended.   I also don't understand how both Olenna and Grey Worm could be taken by surprise.  Yes, there are no cell phones or text messaging in Westeros.   But why aren't they employing spies or scouts???

I hate rooting for Cersei, because she is so evil, but it's hard to root for the "good" guys Dani and Tyrion when they suck so badly.  I get that Cersei is like Darth Vader and this episode was her Empire Strikes Back, but honestly, Dani and Tyrion were so incompetent.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, TwistedandBored said:

But Dany did earn many of those titles. They are her "actual accomplishments". She is Mother of Dragons (She birth 3 Dragons), Khaleesi of the Dothraki, Breaker of Chains (freed slaves), Unburnt (Self explanatory really), and she does see herself the rightful heir and ruler just like many others have. 

I know Jon has accomplish a lot too but let us not take away what Daenerys herself has accomplished as well. 

She's "unburnt" because of a biological condition. Not an accomplishment. It's a parlor trick she can use to kill people within a close enough radius. So it's a potential weapon. Nothing more. 

She is a Khaleesi solely as a result of being sold as a brood mare. Her marriage to Drogo gave her that tile. Nothing more was needed of her. Now, she posed as a ruler -- took on those airs and attempted to lead. And how did she do as a Khaleesi the first time around? She was abandoned by the vast majority of her followers and those that were left -- many died of exhaustion, starvation, and sun exposure. Only the existence of her baby dragons saved her, by gaining her entrance into Qarth. Otherwise, her bones, along with the bones of all who followed her and counted on her for their protection and survival, would be in the garden of bones right now.

Mother of dragons? By happenstance, she hatched them. And they are drawn to her like children. But other than being the leash -- and not always a strong leash -- on these weapons of mass destruction, what can she accomplish with them? Can she feed or clothe the poor? Nurse the sick? No, she can only rain down fire and conquer with them. Cersei is right -- she's not a ruler. She's a revolutionary. She's an anarchist. 

Breaker of chains? Again, dragons did that. And what happened once the chains were broken? Chaos. Disappointment. Crime. Re-imprisonment. She sucked at ruling once those chains were off. Some even wanted to sell themselves back into slavery! And to cap it all off, she put a mercenary named Daario in charge of Mereen!  Anyone here, raise your hand if you think Daario would make a good, just, and kind ruler? Or are you running for the hills? Her title should be "Breaker of Chains and Fuck Up in the Aftermath." Or "Misguided and Unintentional Harmer of Former Slaves." 

So, no, none of those titles means a damn thing. Other than she had dragons. 

Oh, and don't forget one of the first titles she's quick to mention -- Stormborn. Can anyone reasonably argue that being born during a storm is an accomplishment. Maybe for the mother or maester. But not for the baby.

What of any of those things speaks of capability? Speaks of good leadership? Speaks of accomplishment? 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Francie

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

H see's much, can't remember Ned, but he see's Sansa crying, people hovering over her and Arya, Jamie or Brienne, the Hound protecting them etc. been a while since I read books; but he doesn't need trees.

This?

Quote

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief; he saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash with the terrible face of a hound, another was armoured like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them loomed a giant in armour made of stone, but when he opened his visor, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick blood.

If this is it, it was before he woke up from his coma.

[stagmania]

43 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

As for Jon, perhaps he didn't seek power, but back in the Season 2 premier Lord Commander Mormont asked Jon "Do you want to lead some day?".  Jon responded by nodding yes.

I think he had something more like being a ranger in mind, Uncle Benjen style. Not nearly the same thing.

[Macbeth]

6 hours ago, FemmyV said:

    Jon Snow's increasingly guttersnipe accent. Last week was when I first noticed it, this week, after the show I went back and watched S01E02 to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. Kit is dropping his 'g's (believin', goin' etc) and his 't's ("We're nah' geh'-in' anywhere") to sound more like a Wildling. In the after-show talk, it's explicitly stated Dany sees him as uncouth, so I have no doubt this is to play up that aspect.

Thank you for pointing it out.  His change in accent has been very annoying to me.  It is the seventh season.  Who's idea was it for Kit to change Jon's accent at this point?

Tyrion is still fighting Tywin.  Tywin would have sent troops to secure Casterly Rock. He would have seen its loss as a major shame for the family.  Tyrion should have noted how his siblings have rebelled against Tywin as well.  They give no shits about that piece of real estate.  Cersei only wants to be Queen, and Jaime had to be blackmailed in order to agree to be made Lord of Casterly Rock.

Re pixie cuts others are sporting at Kings Landing.  I have noticed Cersei's servants have been wearing their hair short.  Given that it appears all her servants are wearing that style means to me they probably didn't have a choice.  I didn't see that hairstyle on other woman in KL that were not in Cersei's employ, but I could be wrong.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Maybe this is book canon and proven long after I quit reading, but other than Sansa's say so I really haven't encountered this great knowledge of Cersei on screen. Cersei despised Sansa, took great pleasure in abusing and tormenting a child, and Sansa spent a great deal of energy trying to stay out of her way.  Does she know what makes Cersei tick?  I doubt it.  The woman is insane and monstrous. I repeat, as long as Sansa allows LF to circle her like she's a plump pigeon, her intelligence is in question. Which brings me to Cersei and why I don't give 2 fucks about her Mrycella grief.  Mrycella was in the same situation Sansa was in, but she was treated with respect and affection by the Dornish while Cersei stood around sucking on wine and smirking whenever Sansa suffered at her or Joffrey's hands. Payback is a bitch. I have no sympathy for Cersei or Ellaria. 

Sansa knows, Sansa took every thing in, not just from her but from Margery, QOT, LF, Tyrion, the Hound, even Ser Dontos, who basically told her play stupid and keep your head down, they will ignore you and you'll learn so much.

LF is around for a few reasons: He did save them as she told Brieene last week.

He has the Vale, they need the Vale so she needs a legitimate reason to remove him, she has things on him but she may not think it's enough.

She needs to get Royce and her cousin on her side, Royce shouldn't be a problem, Robyn in show is in LF camp ( book Robyn adores Sansa and is actually improving under her).

She over heard Lysa about poison etc, but she doesn't know about the letter sent to Cat and Cat put that in the fire in front of Luwin, so unless he opened it prior and made a note of it that's lost.

I think his undoing is going to be Bran either having a flash back about the assassin and the knife and as the preview shows it's coming back.

Last, she doesn't know about : " I told you not to trust me "

Unlike you I think from 6-10 on she's setting his ass up.

I don't care about Cersei, she's an evil bitch , but I understood her pain about Myrcella and Elaria deserved what she got so did Tyene as she had no qualms about assisting in it.

[PTVjones]

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

It's not that difficult to explain the three-eyed Raven or that Bran became the three-eyed raven after the previous one died.

The problem is to explain that the Three-eyed Raven never dies. He's still there. Even if he died. But he actually did not. It's complicated.

Edited August 1, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

This?

If this is it, it was before he woke up from his coma.

yeah, it was real time, not sure if also future events, but he needs no trees, he's in his Manhattan mode not just in front of a WW,but also the whole time she's pulling him.

[GrailKing]

30 minutes ago, LanceM said:

I have a question. If it does not matter what "skeleton" sits on the Iron Throne when the army of the dead start killing everybody in sight then why should it matter who is king of the north?  Why shouldn't Jon kneel? It seems to me that he is putting his own ambitions ahead of the big picture as much as Dany.

His worries out weigh her wants, they don't stop the zombies she has no realm to rule, she is putting the cart before the horse, and her ego before logic.

Anyone who decides to walk into a pyre should think twice about calling another person's story about walking dead as; well insane or not believable.

[DarkRaichu]

35 minutes ago, LanceM said:

I have a question. If it does not matter what "skeleton" sits on the Iron Throne when the army of the dead start killing everybody in sight then why should it matter who is king of the north?  Why shouldn't Jon kneel? It seems to me that he is putting his own ambitions ahead of the big picture as much as Dany.

Because if he kneels he has to follow whatever Dany wants.  Everyone knew her main objective was not fighting the Night King.  By being independent he could make sure at least the North are fighting NK.

Had she said "kneel and we shall together squash the NK", Jon would have kneeled without a second thought

[Advance35]

Quote

 

She's "unburnt" because of a biological condition. Not an accomplishment. It's a parlor trick she can use to kill people within a close enough radius. So it's a potential weapon. Nothing more. 

She is a Khaleesi solely as a result of being sold as a brood mare. Her marriage to Drogo gave her that tile. Nothing more was needed of her. Now, she posed as a ruler -- took on those airs and attempted to lead. And how did she do as a Khaleesi the first time around? She was abandoned by the vast majority of her followers and those that were left -- many died of exhaustion, starvation, and sun exposure. Only the existence of her baby dragons saved her, by gaining her entrance into Qarth. Otherwise, her bones, along with the bones of all who followed her and counted on her for their protection and survival, would be in the garden of bones right now.

Mother of dragons? By happenstance, she hatched them. And they are drawn to her like children. But other than being the leash -- and not always a strong leash -- on these weapons of mass destruction, what can she accomplish with them? Can she feed or clothe the poor? Nurse the sick? No, she can only rain down fire and conquer with them. Cersei is right -- she's not a ruler. She's a revolutionary. She's an anarchist. 

Breaker of chains? Again, dragons did that. And what happened once the chains were broken? Chaos. Disappointment. Crime. Re-imprisonment. She sucked at ruling once those chains were off. Some even wanted to sell themselves back into slavery! And to cap it all off, she put a mercenary named Daario in charge of Mereen!  Anyone here, raise your hand if you think Daario would make a good, just, and kind ruler? Or are you running for the hills? Her title should be "Breaker of Chains and Fuck Up in the Aftermath." Or "Misguided and Unintentional Harmer of Former Slaves." 

So, no, none of those titles means a damn thing. Other than she had dragons. 

Oh, and don't forget one of the first titles she's quick to mention -- Stormborn. Can anyone reasonably argue that being born during a storm is an accomplishment. Maybe for the mother or maester. But not for the baby.

What of any of those things speaks of capability? Speaks of good leadership? Speaks of accomplishment? 

 

Not a one. Beautifully articulated my problem with Dany.  There is nothing innately HER.  Magic, born under a special moon, blah blah blah.  A Special Snowflake with Dragons.  

While true about Cersei, Tyrion isn't as smart as he thinks he is but the buck stops with Dany since they are HER Seven Kingdoms. The final ok was hers to give in terms of dividing their forces.  But she doesn't really strategize, she tells Tyrion/Varys/Jorah/Dario what she wants and THEY come up with every step of the plan needed to get it.   All she does is stare blankly, speak in monotone and make demands.  

Without her dragons and her Mary Sue Like Magical Protection she would be nothing.  She's never displayed the intellect, guile or personality to put herself on the map like some of the other characters.  Poor Peter Dinklage should be given a back brace considering all the solitary lifting he has to do when in scenes with her, both as a character and an actor.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Advance35

[TaurusRose]

16 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa knows, Sansa took every thing in, not just from her but from Margery, QOT, LF, Tyrion, the Hound, even Ser Dontos, who basically told her play stupid and keep your head down, they will ignore you and you'll learn so much.

LF is around for a few reasons: He did save them as she told Brieene last week.

He has the Vale, they need the Vale so she needs a legitimate reason to remove him, she has things on him but she may not think it's enough.

She needs to get Royce and her cousin on her side, Royce shouldn't be a problem, Robyn in show is in LF camp ( book Robyn adores Sansa and is actually improving under her).

She over heard Lysa about poison etc, but she doesn't know about the letter sent to Cat and Cat put that in the fire in front of Luwin, so unless he opened it prior and made a note of it that's lost.

I think his undoing is going to be Bran either having a flash back about the assassin and the knife and as the preview shows it's coming back.

Last, she doesn't know about : " I told you not to trust me "

Unlike you I think from 6-10 on she's setting his ass up.

I don't care about Cersei, she's an evil bitch , but I understood her pain about Myrcella and Elaria deserved what she got so did Tyene as she had no qualms about assisting in it.

You know how teleporting is a sticking point for some people?  Well, this Sansa knows stuff is my sticking point.  I need to see some proof of this and as of right now, Sansa hasn't shown me that she's skilled at a whole lot.  I would be delighted if Sansa pulled a major coup on LF, but I don't think the girl has the chops. She still seems scared of her own shadow the majority of the time and it looks like LF is getting inside her head.

[cambridgeguy]

42 minutes ago, LanceM said:

I have a question. If it does not matter what "skeleton" sits on the Iron Throne when the army of the dead start killing everybody in sight then why should it matter who is king of the north?  Why shouldn't Jon kneel? It seems to me that he is putting his own ambitions ahead of the big picture as much as Dany.

You're kidding, right?  If Jon goes back and tells the northern lords he's pledged them to the daughter of the man who murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his heir and the sister of the guy who "abducted" the beloved daughter of that Lord then at best they'll chase his ass all the way back to the Wall.  Besides, so far all Dany has done in Westeros is claim an abandoned castle and seen her other allies get routed by Cersei and Euron.  It's hardly a "we either bend the knee or get burnt to a crisp" right now.

Jon could try to lie to one side about the exact terms of any agreement but we haven't seen any indication of him having the inclination to pull off this sort of thing.  Honorable men don't go around swearing one thing and doing another.

[WatchrTina]

48 minutes ago, LanceM said:

I have a question. If it does not matter what "skeleton" sits on the Iron Throne when the army of the dead start killing everybody in sight then why should it matter who is king of the north?  Why shouldn't Jon kneel? It seems to me that he is putting his own ambitions ahead of the big picture as much as Dany.

My take is that Jon feels he can't kneel -- if he does, the northern lords will feel betrayed and their unity will be broken.  Some will refuse to submit to the "foreign invader" as queen.  Jon needs the entire north all pulling in the same direction when the White Walkers get there.  His eye is is fixed firmly on the danger from the north.  Tyrion came right out and said "Bend the knee and help us defeat our enemies."  Jon knows he can't afford to be dragged into the fight to the south.  That may come back to bite him later (Sansa certainly thinks the greater risk is to the south) but Jon has seen the Night King and the army of the dead and he's staying focused on that. So becoming a vassal to Dany and running the risk of possibly being ordered to march south with his army, leaving his home undefended is a non-starter for him.

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, Francie said:

You can call me crazy all you want now, I have absolutely no doubt about this. I see something foreshadowed every freakin' season. It all started with "the things I do for love." And it continued with "Why have the gods made me love someone so hateful?" Then two different "we don't choose whom we love." Then the confession to Myrcella, where Jaime says, "It's beyond our control." It happened again this episode:

"If she's driven you this far, it's gone beyond your control."

"Yes, it has."

Jaime's not making a conscious decision to stay with Cersei. There's a force at work there. And we'll find out that reason when the show runners are good and ready. I have 2 competing theories on it. But, either way, it's a plot point that'll eventually get revealed.  

Well do tell; please!

I'm still on page 3 so maybe I'll see it down thread.

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, that one guy said:

was thinking about the possibility of mounting a rescue of Yara or assassination of Cersei using the tunnels Tyrion and Arya used to escape the Red Keep at

Sadly I don't know who would rescue her. Her 10 men?  I love Yara but she seems doomed.

The taking of The Reach felt a bit like Jon Connington returning home in the books. I liked him as a late addition to the books.

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

You know how teleporting is a sticking point for some people?  Well, this Sansa knows stuff is my sticking point.  I need to see some proof of this and as of right now, Sansa hasn't shown me that she's skilled at a whole lot.  I would be delighted if Sansa pulled a major coup on LF, but I don't think the girl has the chops. She still seems scared of her own shadow the majority of the time and it looks like LF is getting inside her head.

You think, she's scared?

She has no fear of cutting his words at the knees, or speaking up to or for Jon.

If she scared about anything it's if she plays wrong it could be her life, Jon's life and loss of her home, she's wise to be scared it means she's not stupid (hmm heard that somewhere ).

She wasn't afraid to meet him in Moles Town and tear into him.

She wasn't afraid to rebuff him in the Gods Wood " a pretty picture" or "you declared for other houses Lord Baleish, never stopped you before "

I think 7-1 She is setting him up, by the meeting in front of the Lords, she knows what he wants to do and he was smirking ear to ear.

We have to wait and see.