S01.E01: Pilot

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Cast aside by Hollywood, screen legends Joan Crawford and Bette Davis battle ageism, sexism and each other when they sign up to make What Ever Happened To Baby Jane?

[Primetimer]

Bette Davis and Joan Crawford's legendary rivalry gets a shot at immortality for the Peak TV generation.

View the full article

[Chaos Theory]

2 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Bette Davis and Joan Crawford's legendary rivalry gets a shot at immortality for the Peak TV generation.

View the full article

Every sentence made me want to watch this show.  If I still had my DVR it would have a season pass already.    

[zxy556575]

My personal animosity towards Sarandon prohibits me from watching, but I'm debating whether or not that boycott extends to reading the forums. Hm. It's a classic Lenten dilemma.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Lord Donia

[marceline]

2 hours ago, Lord Donia said:

My personal animosity towards Sarandon prohibits me from watching, but I'm debating whether or not that boycott extends to reading the forums. Hm. It's a classic Lenten dilemma.

I feel the same way about Sarandon but I'm not going to deprive myself of our brilliant and witty fellow posters. I want to see what people say. 

[PrincessPurrsALot]

I am all in. Ready to make popcorn and settle in for the glorious tackiness.

[vb68]

This is right up my alley despite the Sarandon factor. Looks like good campy fun.

[Growsonwalls]

So far I think Jessica Lange is stealing the series. Bette Davis was such a larger-than-life character that I feel like Susan Sarandon (even though she's good) can't really capture the real Bette Davis experience. But Lange's insecure, lady-like, passive-aggressive Joan is a wonderful portrayal. I'm going to keep watching for Lange.

[bmoore4026]

I'm lovin' it so far, even though Mark Valley is way to hot to be playing Gary Merrill.

[Arynm]

So much love! I can feel them in their roles already. I am loving every bit of this. The story really doesn't need much embellishment, but it is doing a superb job of telling what happens.

[annzeepark914]

Loved it!  Wish they gave us 2 hours this first night.  IMO Susan Sarandon has become Bette Davis - even looks like her.  I wish they'd found another actress to play Joan.  Jessica Lange's face is too fine to play the coarse looking Crawford (and I remember what she looked like in the 60's--tough!)  The opening credits were fun to watch with terrific graphics.  This is going to be a fun series (it'll help me be patient for Fargo's Season III).

[Nordly Beaumont]

19 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Bette Davis was such a larger-than-life character that I feel like Susan Sarandon (even though she's good) can't really capture the real Bette Davis experience.

I agree. I'm a huge BD fan so I think I'll be harder on SS than JL (I know "Mommie Dearest" better than any actual Joan Crawford movie). So far I'm liking it, although a couple of pair of blue contacts wouldn't have hurt!

[SeanC]

It's kind of interesting that they've cast the main roles with actresses noticeably older than the characters were at this point; Crawford and Davis were in their early 50s at this point, but Lange is in her late 60s and Sarandon is 70.  It's particularly notable in the latter case, since they've got teenager Kiernan Shipka as her bio-daughter.

[merylinkid]

Hollywood history.   No fan of Susan Sarandon but I am willing to overlook this for a deep dive into this relationship.   And Sarandon buries herself in the role enough that I am not watching Sarandon play Bette Davis.   She has the clenched teeth down pat.

The manerveoring at the contract signing press conference was WONDERFUL.   Who was going to be on the left.   

Bette might have hated how Joan became a schill for Pepsi, but at least Joan supported her husband.   Uh-hemm, Ms. Davis.

Kathy Bates as Joan Blondell filling in the back story was genius.   But then I love Kathy Bates.

[Ms Lark]

I'm loving this, although I still think Lange should be Davis and Sarandon Crawford. I can't really get past it yet. Love Judy Davis and she's bringing it as Hedda Hopper.

The title sequence is brilliant!

[Valny]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

So far I think Jessica Lange is stealing the series. Bette Davis was such a larger-than-life character that I feel like Susan Sarandon (even though she's good) can't really capture the real Bette Davis experience. But Lange's insecure, lady-like, passive-aggressive Joan is a wonderful portrayal. I'm going to keep watching for Lange.

I agree with this too, especially the Davis/SS part.  I don't know else they could have gotten for Bette, but yeah, that's a hard role to do justice. I'll see how she does in the later remaining eps, but so far I'm not that impressed. I actually wasn't expecting that much after watching the trailers and noticing Sarandon basically talking the same as she normally does. I'm more looking forward to the eps where they're making the film. I just reached WHtBJ on Saturday, so it's very fresh in my mind so it will be fun to compare.

There actually was a part which I thought was ironic- where you see Sarandon enter just as you hear the dialogue, "Bette Davis was miscast" I forgot who said it either Olivia DeHavilland or Joan Blondell.
I was hoping to see some dogs in Davis' home since I know she loved dogs.

I was a decent first ep, somewhat expositiony since I know a lot of these facts, especially things about BD. 

Nordly Beaumont -I'm a huge BD fan too, what's some of your fave films?

I have three of her DVD box sets, numerous books and a bunch of framed movie posters in my room, including WHtBJ.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Valny

[SmithW6079]

I'm not a stranger to swearing, but I was shocked at the amount of vulgarity, especially Stanley Tucci's character calling Bette Davis a "c--t."

[voiceover]

Eh.  Bette was -- am I not allowed to use the actual word? -- uh, one.  And I say that with all affection.

For the classic movie fan, it's the dilemma of "Where do I look first?"  So much inside baseball goodness -- Bette flipping the Rita Hayworth line to fit her marriage to Gary (but true nonetheless),  Joan Blondell's That's Entertainment! crack....

Mark Valley's a serviceable Gary M, who I always thought was dead sexy anyway.   And the reveal of Sarandon-as-Bette-as-Baby Jane: YEOW.  Delish.

I'll need a cocktail for next week.  And better loungewear.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

It's kind of interesting that they've cast the main roles with actresses noticeably older than the characters were at this point; Crawford and Davis were in their early 50s at this point, but Lange is in her late 60s and Sarandon is 70.

I can handwave that.  After all, today's 50 is the 1960s 70.

[Harry24]

Quote

I don't know else they could have gotten for Bette

You just need to look down the cast list ... Bette's "cousin" Judy!  

[blaase]

IMO Sarandon was great and at 70 she looks about the same that Davis did at 54 during Baby Jane.

Edited March 6, 2017 by blaase

[Harry24]

Quote

at 70 she looks about the same that Davis did at 54

Better.  She's almost too gorgeous.  And I also think she's doing a great job.  Still, I would have loved to have seen Judy Davis take a shot at the role.  She's got the requisite acidity.

[Armchair Critic]

I didn't know the garish Baby Jane makeup was Bette Davis' idea.

[GaT]

Well, I enjoyed it. I can't wait to see what the rest is like.

[marymon]

It is odd that Sarandon is not even attempting the signature Bette Davis  voice.

It did have me chuckle a few times and it just got the right feel of the time period.

So far Judy Davis ithe stand out.

Edited March 6, 2017 by marymon

[SWLinPHX]

4 hours ago, voiceover said:

After all, today's 50 is the 1960s 70.

You mean the opposite: Today's 70 is the 1960's 50.

5 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Loved it!  Wish they gave us 2 hours this first night.  IMO Susan Sarandon has become Bette Davis - even looks like her.

Yes, I would even venture to say "she's got Bette Davis eyes".

[Chaos Theory]

So far I love it.  Don't care about Sarandon's politics.  I try not to let an actors politics inform my enjoyment of their acting.  It mostly works.  Then again I don't watch too many interviews, news or entertainment show.

Alison Wright is playing another secretary.  Think she's a Russian spy?

Lot of swearing and lot of smoking.  I am going to enjoy this.

i did find it interesting how sexist Tucci's charcter was.  He didn't even pretend to be anything else.  Between the vulgar language, the animosity and the slapping the woman on the ass.  

Then again women tended to be their own worst enemy.  Jedda Hopper looking for dirt and getting bored and annoyed when Davis and Crawford behaved themselves at dinner. 

Yeah I think I am going to enjoy this's. 

Hey what do you think will happen if only one of the women get nominated?  

[Drogo]

Playing Davis subtle is a mistake I think, but maybe we're just getting started.

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

i did find it interesting how sexist Tucci's charcter was.  He didn't even pretend to be anything else.

Tucci's always at his absolute best playing Unlikeable.

[ghoulina]

5 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I didn't know the garish Baby Jane makeup was Bette Davis' idea.

That was such a fun revelation. 

Unlike a lot of the posters here, I'm not a HUGE BD or JC fan. I've seen the more well known movies - Mommy Dearest, All About Eve,  Baby Jane. I know a very general history of the women, their roles, their issues. But I'm not a big enough fan that I know all the details, so it's going to be really fun to watch and learn as I go. I don't really know who any of the minor characters are, so I appreciate this forum and all the knowledge to be found here. 

I think Lange is superb and Sarandon is doing alright, but will hopefully grow on me. 

Tucci knocked it out of the park, though. I've always loved him, and he continues to amaze me with his ability to completely morph into someone else entirely with each role. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by ghoulina

[Writing Wrongs]

Well, that was entertaining. I was always a Bette Davis fan and never really cared for Joan Crawford movies. When she was watching the dailies, I did feel a bit sorry for Joan. Baby Jane has always been creepy as hell to me.

[poeticlicensed]

I am loving it so far. 

I was never a big Joan Crawford fan, I thought she was kind of one note in her acting, although I adore Mildred Pierce. Honestly, I think people associate Crawford in her later years with the Faye Dunaway portrayal, which was campy and OTT. I am glad to see that Jessica Lange tone it down a bit. Joan Crawford knitting made me LOL. Her wardrobe is fab. I am totally buying her as  Joan

I think Susan Sarandon has Bette's physical moves down, it's the voice that she just can't do. Bette Davis had such a distinctive voice, I'm sure Sarandon made a decision not to try to mimic it, as it would have come off badly. I am having a harder time watching Sarandon and not thinking that she is playing Bette Davis. But I also think that Bette Davis is much steeper hill to climb to portray than Joan. Especially the Baby Jane character. I just watched Baby Jane again a couple of days before in anticipation for this, and Sarandon is trying with the makeup, but Baby Jane was totally whacked out, looks wise. I'll be interested to see how far Sarandon is willing to take it. 

To those who were asking if  Joan and Bette, who were in their 50s, could be played by women in their 60s and 70s, take a look at some stills at the time taken around the time of shooting. Bette looked 70. Sarandon looks way younger.  Jessica Lange s a dead ringer for Joan

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi0n6HRh8LSAhWBOiYKHaOrC0gQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fvickirean%2Fwhat-ever-happened-to-baby-jane%2F&bvm=bv.148747831,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNHv-yqJQYeIrWCgGgV8tyixUxm1vw&ust=1488895886318738

http://imageslogotv-a.akamaihd.net//uri/mgid:file:http:shared:newnownext.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/bette-joan-1468619493.jpg?quality=0.8&format=jpg&width=980

Alcohol and smoking certainly can take a toll. 

I was reading an article the other day that was comparing the two and it said that Joan always dressed o the nines, while Bette looked like she just came off the farm. I'm seeing a little of that, although Bette's dress at Hedda's house was to die for. 

Loving the crassness and the vulgarity, as I'm sure they were both that way.

It's early but I am not convinced Kieran Shipka can play B.D. First, she is way to petite. Look at B.D in the movie, she is a big girl with a low voice. Kieran looks a little too Betty Draper, but she is a good actress, I hope she can do it justice. 

BTW, my fave BD movie is of course, All About Eve. I can watch it endlessly. 

Love Catherine Zeta Jones as de Havilland. They must have been channeling this:

http://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/show-coverage-shoot-date-april-3-1978-olivia-dehavilland-news-photo/129169523#show-coverage-shoot-date-april-3-1978-olivia-dehavilland-picture-id129169523

And Kathy Bates does a great Joan Blondell. Blondell was such a "broad". 

Edited March 6, 2017 by poeticlicensed

[Quilt Fairy]

I love "Joan Crawford's" house! I have no idea if it's the real one or close to it, but every room is done in teal, aqua or turquoise. I'd live there in a heartbeat. Even with the plastic covers on the furniture.

When Bette and Joan were going to Hedda Hopper's house, did anyone else think they were going to a funeral? They were both dressed in black, then Hedda opened the door and she was dressed in black (and dressed to go out!) and I wondered who died. 

[sugarbaker design]

6 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I didn't know the garish Baby Jane makeup was Bette Davis' idea.

It really illustrated the contrast between the main characters.  JC was wearing shoulder pads and lipstick to play a housebound invalid because JC is a star first and then an actress.  And BD wanted BJ to "look demented" because she's an actress first and a star second.

Edited March 6, 2017 by sugarbaker design

[darkestboy]

Fun opening episode. I think it ran for a good length and both Lange and Sarandon seem to have gotten Crawford and Davis down well enough.

I loved the antagonism between the two of them on set - Joan with the Pepsi Cola machine, Bette with the get up she had for Baby Jane as well.

Their rivalry was certainly intriguing but there did seem to be some respect between them too, given that both refused to succumb to Hedda's attempts to get them to bad mouth each other.

A lot of drinking, swearing and smoking but it definitely captures the era well and the supporting cast are brilliant so far.

Definitely want to see a bit of Kathy Bates and Catherine Zeta Jones too in this.

[monakane]

Last year I read biographies of both women.  Bette would often fight with the studios to look unattractive for a role especially when she was younger.  Joan was too insecure to not look glamorous all of the time.  Joan had a terrible childhood.  As an adult, I think she showed all the signs of someone who had been sexually abused as a child.   I've never read that she was abused, but I do get that sense about her.

[luckyroll3]

I loved every minute of this and am looking forward to the rest of the season. 

The greatest part?  All the SHADE from every, single character/person, not just the leading ladies. 

[merylinkid]

Btw, what is up with Bette always calling Joan "LUcille?"   Is that her real name?   Too lazy to go IMDB it.

[qtpye]

I read in the slate review that Joan's insistence on looking perfect every second, makes her acting seem very stylized and dated.  I remember watching her Oscar winning performance in Mildred Pierce and thinking, this woman does not seem like an abandoned house wife that claws her way from waitress to millionaire.  It was a good performance, but she did not seem to want to get to the grit of the character.

Quote

Joan had a terrible childhood.  As an adult, I think she showed all the signs of someone who had been sexually abused as a child.   I've never read that she was abused, but I do get that sense about her.

I have always heard about Joan's horrible childhood.  I really wish someone would show the horrible poverty and degradation she went through.  It is hard to imagine the polished ice queen we see on the outside, coming from that type of background.  It also would appall us, as we are not used to seeing children being almost enslaved by their cruel environment.  A lot of horrible stuff happens to children now, but I think we would be shocked at what was considered acceptable then, particularly among the poor.

Bette Davis was a force to be reckoned with and many of her roles still hold up to a modern audience.  She was not as insecure as Crawford, which showed up in her pathetically giving presents to the crew ( and pretending to care about them), to get better lighting and shots.

Betty Davis was not a conventional beauty or star, but she KNEW she could act circles around anybody.

[poeticlicensed]

I forgot to comment about the soundtrack. Love it! Nat King Cole, Perry Como, Jack Jones, etc. I adore music from that era. It reminds me of when my parents would get dressed up, have cocktail parties, drink manhattans and play those records on the hi-fi. 

[Trixie Belden]

Oh I am ALL in for this show!!  The clothes, hats, furniture, houses, cars - all. of. it.  I lost Jessica Lange into the JC character, but somehow I only saw Susan Sarandon playing BD and not terribly convincingly.  I think it's the lack of BD voice, that was such a huge part of her persona (but she does have the big round BD eyes thing).  I'm hoping that they get a little into some BD dirt, I felt like they showed her in a better light than JC last night.  Also, I swear the character Mamacita kept reminding me of Ruth Buzzi.

[ghoulina]

I would totally buy the soundtrack. Such a delight. 

On a related note, anyone want to recommend their favorite Crawford and/or Davis biography?

Edited March 6, 2017 by ghoulina

[Writing Wrongs]

1 hour ago, poeticlicensed said:

I was reading an article the other day that was comparing the two and it said that Joan always dressed o the nines, while Bette looked like she just came off the farm. I'm seeing a little of that, although Bette's dress at Hedda's house was to die for. 

Joan was a clean freak. All the plastic on the furniture and stuff. I had read a bio on her and found out she briefly attended Stephens College in Columbia, Missouri where she earned her tuition and board waiting on tables. That's where I live!

I love Bette calling Joan "Lucille".

3 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

On a related note, anyone want to recommend their favorite Crawford and/or Davis biography?

Back in the day, I think I read Joan Crawford by Bob Thomas and Bette Davis: Larger than Life by Richard Schickel. I'm sure there are newer ones though.

[Cherrio]

So far, it is just ok for me. I will wait to see how it goes when they are reciting lines from the movie.  I know a majority of them by heart because I had a friend many years ago who would act both parts.  We could be driving somewhere or eating and all of a sudden a line from Baby Jane would be uttered.  My friend was spot on and hilarious.      I still use lines to this day because of my friend.

          I do think they did a good job with Joan's home, although it seems on a tight budget.   The only other peeve I have seems to be about their budget too.

           Joan's jewels are fake and cheap fakes at that.  The real Crawford had beautiful jewelry. She was known for it.

[meowmommy]

12 minutes ago, Cherrio said:

Joan's jewels are fake and cheap fakes at that.  The real Crawford had beautiful jewelry. She was known for it.

I have no basis for saying this, but it could be possible that she hocked her jewels for money and swapped out replacements.

I wasn't sold at first on Jessica Lange as Crawford, but soon I could see it in her eyes.  The eyes brought everything.  Susan Sarandon has the look of Davis, but the lack of voice ruins it for me.  Kathy Bates seems nothing like Joan Blondell to me.

Susan Sarandon's face may not look 70, but there was a shot of her hands, all age spotted and veiny, that screamed her age.

I've had Baby Jane sitting on my DVR forever.  Maybe I'll finally watch it.

[ghoulina]

22 minutes ago, Cherrio said:

    I do think they did a good job with Joan's home, although it seems on a tight budget.   The only other peeve I have seems to be about their budget too.

           Joan's jewels are fake and cheap fakes at that.  The real Crawford had beautiful jewelry. She was known for it.

 

4 minutes ago, meowmommy said:

I have no basis for saying this, but it could be possible that she hocked her jewels for money and swapped out replacements.

It really seemed like they were trying to show that Joan was broke and doing everything she could to stay afloat. I actually loved the bit with her Mamacita gardening when they realized they couldn't pay the gardeners. Mamacita, in general, cracked me up. 

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder of the site's 'no politics' rule - unless it's in an episode or discussed by the story on the site, it's not allowed. This includes discussion of the actors' politics. Thank you.

[Cherrio]

Iirc , Joan did not sell her jewelry and most of it was auctioned after her death.

She hung on to dear life to her belongings, but let staff go and closed off most of her home in Ca.   She did have fans working for free.

[Blakeston]

As soon as Sarandon was cast as Davis, I knew she wouldn't be doing the voice. Sarandon's biggest weakness as an actress has always been that her voice is her voice, and she isn't able to change it up much.

[voiceover]

8 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

You mean the opposite: Today's 70 is the 1960's 50.

If I'd meant that I would have said it, so, no.

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I would totally buy the soundtrack. Such a delight. 

On a related note, anyone want to recommend their favorite Crawford and/or Davis biography?

Sam Staggs' All About "All About Eve" is a gossipy delight and frankly, the miniseries I'd rather be watching now.

[TattleTeeny]

43 minutes ago, voiceover said:

If I'd meant that I would have said it, so, no.

 

I'm confused--I feel like that makes the exact opposite point.

[iMonrey]

I wasn't overly impressed with the pilot - I guess I expected something a little smarter, like The People vs. OJ. This felt more campy. Still, it was fun and I'm in love with the music and the costumes.

I think both Lange and Sarandon have the look of their characters nailed down but neither is really reminding me of Davis or Crawford - especially Sarandon. I mean, I can seem the dilemma - Bette Davis herself is such a camp character she's been providing drag queens with material for almost a century now! So to do a campy impression of Davis is maybe a little too obvious and a little too comical. But . . . I'm not getting much of a sense of Davis either. I see Susan Sarandon, not Bette Davis.

Crawford is harder to nail - her most distinctive feature is probably her deep voice and Lange doesn't have it. I feel like Lange can't help but chew the scenery and it feels more like I'm watching one of her American Horror Story characters. Still, I'm getting more of a sense of Crawford from her than I am of Davis from Sarandon. 

This is probably one of those shows where it will take a few more episodes for me to totally buy into their portrayals. 

Shocking they got away with both the F word and the C word. I think that speaks to the clout Ryan Murphy has with FX.